Indian Space Programme Discussion

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 05 Apr 2014 08:31

What was the margin of error in the intended orbit.They have started announcing the "error" rate since the last launch of the GSLV and I presume they did that for the PSLV Launch too. Can give an idea of the CEP

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 05 Apr 2014 12:47


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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 05 Apr 2014 13:44

Any Physics /Maths Gurus can calculate approx CEP now with the data of the last few launches ?

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 05 Apr 2014 13:47

When they gave the eror rate in the PSLV launch brouchure (for eg apogee+/-657 Kms are they referring to 2 or 3 standard deviations away or is 657 Kms a single standard deviation ?

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 05 Apr 2014 22:07


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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 06 Apr 2014 18:49

ISRO: Second orbit raising operation of IRNSS-1B is successfully completed by firing Apogee Motor for 790 seconds.
- The expected orbital parameters are: Perigee Altitude: 349 km and Apogee Altitude: 35965 km

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 07 Apr 2014 23:05

Latest Updates

Apr 07, 2014
Third orbit raising operation of IRNSS-1B is successfully completed by firing Apogee Motor for 2096 seconds in morning. The expected orbital parameters are: Perigee Altitude: 11668 km, Apogee Altitude: 35924 km, Inclination: 27 deg

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby jamwal » 08 Apr 2014 00:03

Some images from the launch pad :

Image
Image
Image

More at http://imgur.com/a/4Fsmb#0

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28452 » 08 Apr 2014 14:06

Can not a PSLV/GSLV be used as an ICBM with 10,000KM+ range? Why don't we have such long range missiles when the rockets with such range exist?

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 08 Apr 2014 14:12

You can use a few of these to station all of Indian Warhead Stockpile in outer space and keep it there to be used to target any place on Earth. But no real point to that.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 08 Apr 2014 14:22

Technically it can be used but the problem is the time taken for fueling is enough for an enemy to blast you down which is why modern ICBM's are all solid based (except for a few Russian silo based ones)

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby srin » 08 Apr 2014 15:20

ray_donovan wrote:Can not a PSLV/GSLV be used as an ICBM with 10,000KM+ range? Why don't we have such long range missiles when the rockets with such range exist?


Because it is an overkill.

PSLV weighs almost 300 tons. It has a liquid propellant Vikas engine that has hypergolic fuel that needs to be filled before launch. So - it isn't mobile and therefore at best needs to be stored in huge silo. And given the increased accuracy of missiles in general and stealth bombers, it becomes highly vulnerable to a pre-emptive strike.

OTOH, Topol-M weights around 50 tons, fully solid fuelled and also road-mobile. The Agni series is also going in that direction.

There is no reason to believe that Agni series can't be made to reach 10000+ kilometres, except that there is some strategic assessment that it is not necessary.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Brando » 08 Apr 2014 16:24

ray_donovan wrote:Can not a PSLV/GSLV be used as an ICBM with 10,000KM+ range? Why don't we have such long range missiles when the rockets with such range exist?


There is a reason why ballistic missiles and space launch vehicles are so different. A ballistic missile is a weapon of war, a satellite weapon is a mode of transportation. The difference is analogous to a warship and a merchant vessel. You can't really replace a Navy destroyer with a armed up merchant vessel, no matter how well you jury rig it.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Brando » 08 Apr 2014 16:36

ravi_g wrote:You can use a few of these to station all of Indian Warhead Stockpile in outer space and keep it there to be used to target any place on Earth. But no real point to that.


Isn't that the same thing as the FOBS (Fractional Orbital Bombardment System) that the Soviets tested back in the 60s ? I think NORAD and the US would locate them quite quickly, as would probably the Russians and maybe even the chinese.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_23694 » 08 Apr 2014 20:36

Can ISRO please have something like the one below.

Rocketcams trace Soyuz launch from French Guiana

http://spaceflightnow.com/soyuz/vs07/vi ... 0QW-fmSyqs

I beg ISRO. Your launch videos are boring and of poor quality. US had better camera's telecasting rocket launch in the 60s and we are
in 21st century.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby shiv » 08 Apr 2014 20:56

ray_donovan wrote:Can not a PSLV/GSLV be used as an ICBM with 10,000KM+ range? Why don't we have such long range missiles when the rockets with such range exist?

Ballistic missiles need to be sturdy enough, and launch procedures simple enough for suitably trained military personnel to launch, as opposed to launch by a bevy of rocket scientists. Having a huge body of engineers, scientists and technicians working on a PSLV/GSLV makes it possible to successfully launch something minus the extra sturdiness and fail safe/idiot proofing required for a launch by non specialists/non rocket scientists.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 09 Apr 2014 06:56

A significant capability - Edit in The Hindu
On April 4, India’s Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) marked its 25th consecutive successful mission by lofting the second spacecraft required for the Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS). The IRNSS will function much like America’s widely-used Global Positioning System (GPS), albeit on a regional scale. The GPS is based on a constellation of 24 satellites that transmit signals, which suitably equipped receivers pick up and utilise to establish their position with a great level of accuracy. Originally intended for the U.S. armed forces, the use of unencrypted GPS signals have spawned a wide range of civilian applications. Vehicles, aircraft and ships increasingly rely on equipment with satellite navigation capability. Smartphones and other mobile devices providing map and location-based services too take the aid of GPS signals. Russia has a similar satellite system in place, called GLONASS. Europe is in the process of establishing a navigation satellite system of its own, named Galileo. China’s BeiDou Navigation Satellite System began offering regional services in December 2012 and is expected to achieve global coverage by around 2020. Japan wants to create a satellite system to improve GPS coverage over that country.

The IRNSS, being wholly under Indian control, serves an important security requirement — making sure that so critical a service is available at all times. Military operations have come to rely on satellite navigation and there is no guarantee that another country’s system will be accessible during a crisis situation. To keep costs down, the Indian Space Research Organisation has opted for a constellation of just seven satellites to provide accurate navigation signals over India and up to 1,500 km from its borders. The first of those satellites, IRNSS-1A, was launched in July last year. The performance of that satellite has been extensively analysed and found to be very satisfactory. The second satellite, IRNSS-1B, has now been put into orbit, and two more will follow later this year. Once the four IRNSS satellites are up and functioning, it will be possible to ascertain whether the system’s signals provide the required positional accuracy. The remaining three satellites are to be launched by the middle of next year. The option exists to extend the coverage area by adding four more satellites. ISRO is working with industry so that receivers that utilise the IRNSS signals become available. Some of these receivers will be capable of taking signals from other navigation satellite systems as well, like the GPS. The use of IRNSS must extend well beyond India’s security services, and ISRO will need to take the lead in promoting the widespread utilisation of the system.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby jamwal » 09 Apr 2014 13:41

For defence need, we need to cover China too. Most of Pakisatan is already under coverage, methinks.


Is there any progress on devices ?

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 09 Apr 2014 23:09

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 180_1.html

Final orbit raising maenuver done for IRNSS 1B

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 10 Apr 2014 07:19

]Not sure if it is accurate
Image

Though this postioning seems to indicate a wider swath
Image

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Brando » 10 Apr 2014 12:13

^^ Looks like we can't guide our warheads all the way to Beijing or Shanghai on our system alone.

Lot of information on the IRNSS launch but little information on how "secure" is it so far. Given the recent spoofing of GPS signals by the Iranians and the Russians to disable drones etc, how securely encrypted and authenticated is the IRNSS signal. Does ISRO have serious encryption and authentication standards in place on both receiver and transmitter side of the system ? Given the ease with which these "GPS Simulators" can spoof existing civilian and in some case military GPS, most GPS receivers are looking to upgrade their computation algorithms to test for absolute and relative signal strength discrepancies to at-least identify if not counter spoofing attempts.

A positioning system is only as valuable as its availability and its reliability. Also, another problem faced by non-GPS users is the cost of the receivers for non-GPS systems - they tend to be quite expensive due to the small numbers produced and the proprietary standards they employ.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Yogi_G » 10 Apr 2014 12:22

I take the IRNSS coverage with the same pinch of salt as I take with the ranges of the Agni missiles. Note how the coverage of the IRNSS ends around the area where Diego Garcia is located.

Most modern day GPS SoC have both GPS as well as Glonass. My Moto G has this.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 10 Apr 2014 16:53

Yogi_G wrote:Note how the coverage of the IRNSS ends around the area where Diego Garcia is located.

Beyond those areas, it will be only encrypted signals !

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby JTull » 10 Apr 2014 17:00

In the aftermath of MH-370 search in the Indian ocean, I can foresee some form of tracking technology being incorporated in large airliners that cannot be switched off from the cockpit. I think Gagan and IRNSS have potential to alleviate some off the issues related to coverage in Indian ocean.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby shiv » 10 Apr 2014 18:04

Satellites will be the first to be targeted in serious war if they are going to be used for guidance. Better to have alternative redundant guidance systems in parallel in case SatNav signals disappear or are spoofed to vary a great deal from some other (eg inertial) guidance.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 10 Apr 2014 21:38

A GEO satellite will be able to get a full disc image of the earth (for eg check out Kalpana pictures of the Met dept).So if we know the disc images of the lateral most satellites and 4 satellites medial to them we could probably get an idea of possible coverage. IRNSS also is using triangulation using land based markers too so the actual coverage may actually be bigger than what is indicated ? The only problem with GSO GEO satellites is their transit time for information and that delay of transmission may affect real time accuracy (which is why they are also having ground based units too for improving accuracy and decreasing acquisition time lag)/

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 11 Apr 2014 17:09

India Getting Close to a Satellite Navigational System - Ajay lele, IDSA
The uniqueness of the IRNSS is to have a system with satellites in the geostationary orbit instead of MEO. However, such departure from the global practice could also pose few challenges. Since S-band frequency has never been used in the past few experts are of the opinion that the problems could arise in miniaturizing the receiver antenna for S-band. Also, since the satellites are positioned at high elevation, they could restrict the system for providing accurate indoor applications.

For India development of its own navigational system was the need of the hour for civilian, commercial and strategic purposes. Few years back India had agreed to make significant financial investments into the ESA’s Galileo programme. However, finally India was forced to decide against joining this programme because they were denied the military rights of this system. Naturally, India was not left with any option and started articulating the need for the development of its own system around 2006. It is important to note that China has committed to provide Pakistan with a ‘military quality’ signal of its BeiDou system.

India needs to exploit the ‘regional nature’ of the IRNSS to the fullest. Apart from the Indian region, this system also has the capability to provide accurate observations covering much of India’s extended neighborhood. India could effectively engage various states from Africa, Asia and Oceania region by using ‘satellite navigation diplomacy’.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Raj » 12 Apr 2014 04:24

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beidou_Nav ... ite_System
There are two levels of service provided; a free service to civilians and licensed service to the Chinese government and military.[14][34] The free civilian service has a 10-meter location-tracking accuracy, synchronizes clocks with an accuracy of 10 nanoseconds, and measures speeds to within 0.2 m/s. The restricted military service has a location accuracy of 10 centimetres,[35] can be used for communication, and will supply information about the system status to the user. To date, the military service has been granted only to the People's Liberation Army and to the Military of Pakistan.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Bade » 12 Apr 2014 08:10

http://www.storm-surge.info/oscat-measu ... -uk-storms
Image
The last hurrah from Oceansat-2 on international service.
Unfortunately ISRO have today announced the discontinuation of services from the Oceansat-2 Scatterometer (OSCAT). The OSCAT data dissemination had already been turned off since 24th February 2014, due to severe degradation of the data. However it should be noted that the instrument was close to its intended 5-year mission time.

This instrument was ISRO's first active microwave payload, which provided meteorological services to international users such as EUMETSAT and NOAA. It provided accurate information on storms during natural disasters, including the image of Cyclone Haiyan shown right.

Historic OSCAT data is available for many storm surges in the eSurge database, and so will continue to be a valuable tool for studying storms and the build up to storm surges. eSurge would like to thanks ISRO for making this data available to us via OSI-SAF.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 13 Apr 2014 19:14

Can anyone give a breakdown of the current transponder capacity of India/ISRO? How many transponders in current use come from Indian satellites, and how many from non-Indian ones. Thanks!

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 13 Apr 2014 21:37


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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 14 Apr 2014 10:19

Thanks, that information needs updating, since Insat 3E is no longer in service, and GSAT-14 has( supposedly) entered service.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 15 Apr 2014 09:17

Security at ISRO units strengthened - The Hindu
In light of instances of security breach reported from Indian Space Research Organisation facilities here in the past two years, the Ministry of Home Affairs has augmented the strength of the Central Industrial Security Force (CISF) unit guarding these installations.

The unit has also gone in for modernisation of technology.

The Ministry of Home Affairs in March, has augmented the strength of the CISF unit with an additional deployment of 200 personnel, taking the total strength of the unit to 535 personnel.

Senior officials said that the intrusion case where a woman, breached layers of security, stayed at an ISRO guest house claiming to be a scientist with the organisation using a fake ID card in September 2012, raised alarm in the establishment of loop holes in the security cover for multiple ISRO installations in the city. This incident followed by an anonymous terror threat letter dropped at an ISRO installation in Peenya in June 2013, which later was found to be a hoax added to urgency of strengthening security measures. A official with CISF said there were more than five important ISRO facilities spread across the city and the paucity of human resources was brought to the notice of the authorities during a recent audit.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Austin » 19 Apr 2014 15:58

India’s first cosmonaut talks to RIR about Indo-Russian space projects, why countries should avoid a space race and gives advice for future cosmonauts.

A career as a cosmonaut “is not a joy ride” – Rakesh Sharma

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_23694 » 19 Apr 2014 21:02

Could someone kindly share the latest update on the following programe of ISRO -
- Semi Cryo engine and its availabilty timeline [is it 2018 ? ]
- SRE-2
- RLV first flight
- CE-25 [any chance of complete stage testing in 2014]

SRE-2 and RLV has been in news for quite sometime but seems to delayed every year

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 20 Apr 2014 02:33

All in 5 years only.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby bharats » 29 Apr 2014 20:13

Govt. extends ISRO chief's tenure till end 2014

The Appointments Committee of the Cabinet has approved the extension of tenure of Dr. K. Radhakrishnan, Secretary, Department of Space and Chairman, Space Commission beyond 29.08.2014 and till 31.12.2014, on functional grounds and in public interest....
Dr.Radhakrishnan took charge as ISRO Chairman October 31, 2009, succeeding G. Madhavan Nair. He is a recipient of the Padma Bhushan.

Read complete at http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ani/govt-extends-isro-chief-s-tenure-till-end-2014-114042301157_1.html

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 02 May 2014 07:25

It is already May, and there is still no ISRO annual report for 2013-14 out yet! Usually, it's displayed before now. There should be more nuggets than usual, with all that's happened in the last one year, and the upcoming GSLV Mark 3 experimental launch.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Philip » 02 May 2014 09:23

India's "Jugaad" route to success.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... mangalyaan
Shoestring theory: India's pioneering budget space probe is halfway to Mars
If the £46m 'Mangalyaan' orbiter mission succeeds in reaching the red planet, it will be a triumph of ingenuity over big spending

Anu Anand in Delhi
The Guardian, Friday 2 May 2014

india mars probe mangalyaan
Work on the Mars orbiter at the ISRO satellite centre in Bangalore. Mangalyaan was conceived in just 15 months on a tiny budget. Photo: Manjunath Kiran/AFP/Getty

On the pitted rural roads running through millions of India's small towns and villages, the jugaad vehicle is a source of peculiar pride.

Often it's a hand-cranked diesel engine crudely bolted on to a flatbed wagon and is used to carry people, steel rods, livestock or sacks of food in places where no public transport exists. It is loud, polluting and not officially roadworthy.

Yet it stands for a quality valued by most Indians: an ability to find a cheap solution to complex problems in a country where infrastructure is poor and technology is still largely unreliable. Jugaad represents a triumph of Indian ingenuity against incredible odds.

India's Mars orbiter, Mangalyaan, is perhaps the country's most audacious and successful example of jugaad so far. A boxy probe built by scientists in just 15 months for the paltry sum of £46m ($75m) – less than the cost of the average Hollywood blockbuster film – Mangalyaan has completed more than half of its perilous journey to the red planet.

It is only a few days behind Nasa's Maven probe, which is propelled by powerful Atlas V and Centaur rockets.

If Mangalyaan enters Martian orbit in September to survey the topography and sniff out evidence of methane, a key sign of life, India will enter the history books as a pioneering nation. It will be Asia's first country to carry out a successful Mars mission. Japan, China and 21 other countries have failed.

At the Delhi offices of the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), a crumbling government building characterised by the usual profusion of with sprouting electrical wires and urine-soaked stairwells, the head of India's space programme explained that Mangalyaan's success on a shoestring budget was down to factors including reusing spacecraft modules, carrying out fewer but more efficient ground tests, and opting for the longer, cheaper route to Mars in the absence of powerful rocket technology.
PS orbiter spacecraft, India's first mission to Mars, blasting off in 2013 The PSLV-C25 rocket carrying the Mars orbiter spacecraft, blasting off from Sriharikota in 2013. Photo: Isro/AFP/Getty

"We used the launch vehicle that was available to us to the best of its capability, tailoring the launch time and angle to achieve the correct trajectory," said Koppillil Radhakrishnan, the ISRO chairman. "While Mangalyaan was in Earth orbit, we tested its performance and the instruments on board, so this was another advantage."

Access to India's space programme is severely restricted, but videos posted by ISRO show teams of scientists wearing plastic shower caps assembling the probe and its components at different stages. Unlike at Nasa, India's space programme does not adhere to strict design and review audits, saving money in the process.

While European scientists stick to a 35-hour working week, 18 to 20-hour days are common for Indian scientists, according to Radhakrishnan. "Our wages are less, yes, but the rigour of the design and our reliability are second to none," said Radhakrishnan.

Bruce Jakosky, principal scientist on Nasa's Maven, said: "I'm very impressed by India's mission so far. They sent [the Mangalyaan probe] into orbit around Earth and used a series of small rocket motor burns to get into higher altitude. They used the last burn to break free of Earth's gravity to slingshot to Mars. I thought it was a very clever way to do it."

In the recent Indian elections, voters have been mainly concerned about the flagging economy, inflation and corruption in government-run programmes. In the context of widespread poverty, how can India's £600m space programme be justifiable?

Radhakrishnan said ISRO spent a tiny proportion of its budget – 7% – on pure science, such as the Mars mission. Most of its budget is used, he said, on projects that help India's poorest citizens and fight corruption. "If you look at the Indian space programme, it is primarily for the people; 55% of our budget is used for satellites that help more than 100,000 fishermen find their daily catch. We help the government monitor crops, and ground and surface water. Our satellites have helped millions of people escape cyclones in time and we've even helped develop tele-medicine for people who live too far to visit a specialist," he said.

The agency is also using satellites to monitor whether promised government projects are delivered. "When you have a lot of developmental work on paper in rural areas, satellites can certainly be used to monitor progress in a very major way," he said. "If you look at Nasa, you won't find them running the communications satellites for the entire country. People consider India a role model. [Our space programme] did not stay in an ivory tower."

Despite the success of India's Mars probe, most Indians still identify the red planet with its astrological power, not with whether it ever sustained life.

Radhakrishnan, a classical Kathakali dancer and Carnatic music vocalist, said he did not believe in astrology, but he was not averse to making sure the gods and good luck were on his side: Mangalyaan was launched on a Tuesday, mangalvaar or "Mars day" in Hindi.

And a day before theprobe's launch, he sought the blessings of deities at a local temple. "Every person has their own values and beliefs," he said. "I go to temple, to church and mosque. But what is finally important is the power of your mind to face challenges, because the line between success and failure in space is very thin."

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby JTull » 02 May 2014 11:44

I had a thought about these costs. In the West, whenever we estimate cost, the cost of salaries for employees and contract staff are added. I wonder if ISRO does the same for work done in-house. For components sourced from outside that is implicit. When my Dad retired as an OS from the department, he estimated the cost of his perks were 2 times his salary. Couple of Director level staff working on Mangalyaan for an year or longer, easily cost 1 crore plus to the country. Perhaps someone had a better insight.


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