Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

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JTull
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby JTull » 04 Dec 2013 22:06

narayana wrote:Flash News in local news,There was a fire accident in Vishakapatnam Naval dockyard involving INS KONKAN :(


Naval patrol vessel catches fire in Vizag
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/naval-patrol-vessel-catches-fire-in-vizag/article5421902.ece

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Avinandan » 05 Dec 2013 00:53

I observed that IN doesn't employ any Vertically Launched Anti Submarine Missiles ( e.g. ASROCK). Apart from normal torpedoes, IN has generally installed RBU-6000 as its primary anti submarine system. Almost all modern navy have employed ASROCK type systems for submarine defence. Russia itself uses soviet era SS-N-14 Silex or the latest RPK-2 Viyuga along with RBU-6000 for submarine defence. It also plans to install ASW-UDAV instead of RBU-6000 in their latest Udaloy-II destroyers.

Question 1 : Is RBU-6000 sufficient for Indian Navy or it would be supplemented by ASROCK type systems later on ? The range of rockets is too low in IMHO.
Question 2: Wikipediasays that RBU-6000 has an upgrade option of RPK-8 firing the 90R rocket, which is actively guided in the water. Should IN opt for this upgrade ?
Last edited by Avinandan on 05 Dec 2013 01:01, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Avinandan » 05 Dec 2013 00:58

JTull wrote:
narayana wrote:Flash News in local news,There was a fire accident in Vishakapatnam Naval dockyard involving INS KONKAN :(


Naval patrol vessel catches fire in Vizag
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/naval-patrol-vessel-catches-fire-in-vizag/article5421902.ece


INS Konkan looks to be a Pondicherry Class MineSweeper instead of a Patrol Vessel as reported in news. Am I missing something ? :cry:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 05 Dec 2013 01:01

JTull wrote:
narayana wrote:Flash News in local news,There was a fire accident in Vishakapatnam Naval dockyard involving INS KONKAN :(


Naval patrol vessel catches fire in Vizag
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/naval-patrol-vessel-catches-fire-in-vizag/article5421902.ece



The report says short circuit and the ship is gutted.

Some thing of stand down is needed.
Most likely heads need to roll to make people understand responsibility.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby A Sharma » 05 Dec 2013 02:39

INS Konkan catches fire

VISAKHAPATNAM: INS Konkan - a mine sweeper under the Eastern Naval Command (ENC) - caught fire at the Naval Dockyard here on Wednesday.

The Pondicherry class M-72 ship was undergoing repairs at the time of the fire. No casualties have been reported. The cabin of the vessel is learnt to have been totally gutted.

Along with Navy fire tenders four other local fire engines rushed to the spot to help douse the fire which took over an hour to put out, sources said.

Some sources said that the fire broke out in the engine room due to a short circuit while others said it was sparked off by welding works that were going on at the site.

According to an official version of the ENC, the fire occurred at around 5 pm and there was no major loss to life and property with the fire being doused in an hour.

Initially there were rumors that a major blast in the Naval dockyard but Navy officials dismissed these saying that it was just a fire that had broken out at INS Konkan when welding and other repair procedures were being carried out on the ship that was at the dock for refit.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 05 Dec 2013 03:11

Dockyard fires of vessels under repair/refit are common worldwide.There's so much of flammable material around that the smallest spark could set off a fire.The onboard/dockyard fire fighting eqpt. to put out such fires has to be augmented.Perhaps dockyards will have to develop quick reaction firefighting teams such as exists in airports.

The (hopeful) acquisition of the second Akula cannot be delayed.While details may not be in the public domain,even if signed on today,it will take around 3 years to arrive at the earliest.The life-extension of the 6 aging subs in service will also take another 6 years at the very least.That is one sub returning from refit each year. The IN should put its resources into acquiring a few new-build subs,preferably Kilos which are available easily and are cost-effective too.At current prices,we can get 2 new Klub armed Kilos for just one Scorpene which will only be able to carry Exocets.Take a look at the "realistic" timeframe in this IT report on both Scorpenes and IAC-1.

Looking at the eco situ,the almost certain change in govt. round the corner,and the inevitable delays in decision-making,the IN's quest for "advanced" line-2 subs will see the light of decison-making day closer to 2020 than 2015.It should have a "plan B" which calls for as said above,a quick acquisition of "more of the same",Kilos,to keep the fleet strength secure.The IAF is doing exactly this with the increased number of SU-30MKIs and upgrading old and building new Jaguars.

There also seems to be an error in the IT report about the SP arty on an Arjun chassis.VIjayantas had 105mm main guns.The 130mm guns are most probably the Russian arty which has also been upgraded to 155mm.Here is a report. (http://defence.pk/threads/rebirth-of-ca ... is.262823/)

Navy's modern dreams set sail
Gautam Datt | Mail Today | New Delhi, December 4, 2013 | UPDATED 09:04 IST
As the custodians of the country's maritime security break into celebrations to mark the Navy Day on December 4, far away in the Russian north new aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya has embarked on the much awaited journey under the Indian flag to join the naval fleet hopefully in another four to six weeks.

The arrival of Vikramaditya will be the dawn of a new era in the Navy's capabilities as the lethargic process of Navy's ambitious modernisation plan has finally begun to fall in place.

The Navy went strategic with induction of Russian nuclear-powered submarine INS Chakra, leased from Russia for 10 years. After initial hiccups, it is now operating smoothly. This year India's own effort in developing ballistic missile submarine Arihant received a major boost when its reactor went critical paving the way for sea trials that are likely to commence soon.
INS Vikramaditya


Navy's dwindling aviation arm acquired crucial capabilities in the form of long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft P-8Is. A new squadron of mighty MiG-29Ks, the first naval fighters after the Sea Harriers, became operational and the jets would soon be landing and taking-off from Vikramaditya. The Navy now has its own Hawk advanced jet trainers and its key anti-submarine operation helicopter Kamov-28 is cleared for the much-needed upgradation.

Along with progress on the aviation front, Navy's surface fleet was also augmented with induction of an array of new warships.

The old order of carrier battle group (CBG) centered around INS Virat - which is running on an extended life - with components of Ganga, Leander and Delhi class ships is fading.

Vikramaditya will form the new CBG with modern Shivalik and Teg class stealth frigates and new tankers. Forthcoming Kolkata class warships will add the extra punch. By the time Vikramaditya is firmly settled in its role as the leading surface platform sometime next year, India's home-made aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, which has been partially completed, would be made available after 2020, if realistic deadline is taken into account.

In the sub-surface domain, the beleaguered programme to build six French Scorpene submarines is said to be heading for final finish after painful delays. The latest update is that all the six of these submarines will now be inducted by 2021. Navy has taken the lead in this respect with the launch of GSAT-7 communication satellite, the first dedicated military asset in the space.

In terms of immediate additions, Navy's shore-based test facility for practicing carrier operations for its fighter jets is expected to start this month.

The future indeed looks busy but the Navy is battling with serious deficiencies that are impacting operations in a big way.
Admiral D K Joshi
Navy chief Admiral D K Joshi


The depleting submarine fleet has been a reason of big headache and accident of INS Sindhurakshak, which was one of the few boats fully operational, added to the woes. Navy is desperately look up to the defence ministry to launch construction of six new submarines under project 75 India but no headway has been made.

Navy's helicopter fleet is critically low and it has come to a situation where its shining pieces of modern warships look depleted without helicopter support.

The worse aspect of the crisis is that there is no movement in sight to replenish the fleet because of sluggish acquisition process.

Further adding to the woes is bombshell dropped by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh by asking the armed forces to curb expenses because of economic downturn.

With the modernisation process remaining unfinished, the question being asked is where to drop the anchor?

The question needs to be answered early considering the fast changing security dynamics in the region. With the Asia-Pacific emerging as the centre of activities, Indian Navy's stated area of interest from the Gulf of Aden to the Malacca Strait is going to be extended up to the South China Sea just as China is making forays into the Indian Ocean to safeguard its economic interests.

===

DRDO fancies its firepower

The DRDO scientists are hopeful that they would be able to add considerably to the army's firepower in the coming years, be it development of Future Main Battle Tank Arjun, a "desi" Bofors or bi-modular charge systems.

The DRDO is satisfied with the progress on the project to mount 130mm guns of old Vijayanta tanks on the new Arjun tanks. Sources said the 40 Arjun catapults ordered by the army as part of this project should be ready in a few months. The army's confidence in the Arjun chassis led to the project fructifying.
Arjun catapult


The next indigenous push is in the induction of 155mm artillery. Along with army's request of proposal for the 155mm 52 calibre guns, the DRDO has launched a parallel development programme for the same. It is hopeful of developing the gun well before time. The progress on building 155mm 39 calibre Bofors guns at home is on track, though scientists admit that it should have been taken up earlier as the designs were available for several years.

Another major bottleneck has been the production of bi-modular charges for the artillery guns. The programme to produce this ammunition in India has been doomed. The first tie-up to produce bi-modular charge systems was made with Denel of South Africa but the company got blacklisted on charges of corruption. Sources said the production is going to start soon.

===

THE appointment of General Raheel Sharif as the new army chief of Pakistan had surprised Indian military establishment. According to Indian Army's internal assessment, General Rashad Mahmood was the likely successor of Kayani. But Mahmood went on to become chairman chiefs of staff committee. The army is not going by the tag of "moderate" given to General Sharif by the media to measure the new Pakistani army chief. When it comes to dealing with India, all are alike, said an officer, adding only time will tell if there is any change in Pakistan Army position.

==

Browne's had highs and lows

IAF chief NAK Browne is hanging up his uniform on December 31, ending his tenure which had its own share of highs and lows. The IAF earned accolades from across the country for the gigantic humanitarian efforts, particularly to bring relief in Uttarakhand that was devastated by floods. His tenure also saw IAF sorting out its training woes to an extent by inducting Swiss Pilatus PC 7 basic trainers on which rookie pilots started getting their first flying lessons.
IAF chief N A K Browne
IAF chief N A K Browne


Browne's term saw one of the lowest phases as well when the acquisition of 12 VVIP helicopters from Anglo-Italian company AgustaWestland came under corruption scanner and for the first time a former IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal S.P. Tyagi, was named in an FIR by the CBI on charges of receiving kickbacks. The IAF ran into the defence ministry's wall when it came to major acquisition programmes and its relations with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited deteriorated considerably.

The IAF leadership strongly indicated the need to break the arrangement of over dependence on HAL for meeting its requirements. The IAF rejected HAL's proposal to build a new basic trainer HTT-40 and asked the defence ministry to buy more Swiss Pilatus instead.

Losing confidence in the abilities of HAL is also one of the reasons for the stalemate over finalisation of the mega contract for the purchase of 126 French Rafale multi-role combat jets. The IAF and the defence ministry are again at odds over the acquisition of new aircraft to replacing the ageing fleet of Avros. The issue is unlikely to be resolved soon despite the cry from the private industry.

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 27737.html
Last edited by Philip on 05 Dec 2013 03:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 05 Dec 2013 03:35

Most commercial vessels are going for water mist/high fog systems as the primary fixed fire fighting mediume .
Basically is is water presurised to 60-100 bar and then atomised through a nozzle. This equipment can be released remotely, with men trapped in the compartment it can be activated as it does not form an oxygen deprived atmosphere , it can be used with engines running, diesel alternators too. hence can be activated very fast and reduces the damage caused by fire especially to the electrical systems.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 05 Dec 2013 14:13

Avinandan wrote:Question 1 : Is RBU-6000 sufficient for Indian Navy or it would be supplemented by ASROCK type systems later on ? The range of rockets is too low in IMHO.
Weapon range is a function of detection, tracking & guidance range, and not just propellant range. US has much longer ranged underwater detection sensors than India that enabled employment of ASROC.

The primary layer is helicopters. Thereafter, the Indian LR ASW weapon is 533 mm HWT. Please note that US uses 324 mm weapons. The last layer is RBU-6000 that is like an underwater CIWS, and has an anti-torpedo role as well.

Destroyers & frigates touch 30 knots, and can outrun torpedoes. For anti submarine work, they race atop submarines, that are very slow underwater, and pepper them with mortars like RBU-6000. FWIW, even the TFTA Swedes have a similar ASW-600 mortar on their Visby ships.

Avinandan wrote:Question 2: Wikipediasays that RBU-6000 has an upgrade option of RPK-8 firing the 90R rocket, which is actively guided in the water. Should IN opt for this upgrade ?
India already has 90R rocket since early 2000.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010427/world.htm#8
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2001/apr/9975.htm

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 05 Dec 2013 14:17

titash wrote:*** Cross posting from the military pics thread ***

Great find Amitabh!!!

Looks like a 76 mm gun...I thought I saw a news report that the IN was transitioning to a 127 mm gun license manufactured at BHEL for future warships

Can't see the torpedo tubes either - perhaps we moved to internal LWT instead of that big ass HWT amidships

The bridge seems to be 2 levels...I can see 2 rows of windows...very unusual for warships. Perhaps the radar mast penetrates through the bridge and reduces space, necessitating 2 floors

Most importantly, the NCW enabling SATCOM radome is in place

Amitabh wrote:Kolkata class destroyer at sea

Image
HWT are there. Two per side, but mounted sideways. The second notch amidships ahead & below of first AK-630 shows the HWT TT launchers. Looks like there is a stern housing as well. Does someone have better pictures?

Added Later - Looks like boat deck has been moved to the stern http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_NjHp5DLYx9o/T ... BKochi.jpg

Added Even Later - its too small for a boat deck. TAS housings are in the stern. What additional sensors will this housing accommodate?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 05 Dec 2013 18:18

She looks good at sea. Lets hope that she enters service soon.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 05 Dec 2013 19:15

Another navy Day has come and gone.However,there have been few articles on the current status of the IN and how its perspective planning has been faring.Though this is a year old report,it is still relevant as nothing much has changed since it was written.


Ajai Shukla | Mazagon Dock/ Mumbai
August 20, 2012

Burdened defence shipyards embrace private sector
INS Sahyadri adds teeth to 'blue water' navy
Mazagon Dock may split order among 4

The Indian Navy’s insistence that warships built in India must have cutting-edge weapon systems is having potentially dangerous consequences: Half-built warships rusting in the dockyard, waiting for fancy weaponry that gets more and more delayed.

Such is the story of Project 15A, the construction of three 6,800-tonne destroyers by the public sector Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai (MDL), India’s premier warship builder. Project 15A was sanctioned in June 2001, and construction began in 2003, with delivery of the first ship, INS Kolkata, promised in June 2008. The second (INS Kochi) and third (INS Chennai) vessels of the Kolkata Class (a warship class is traditionally named after the lead ship) would follow at one-year intervals.

Instead, as Business Standard saw on a visit to MDL, the three hulks float aimlessly, seawater corroding their steel as they wait for key systems that are not yet ready. INS Kolkata was launched in March 2006; it has already spent seven years in the water. But the navy will be lucky to get it next year, five years late. INS Kochi and INS Chennai will follow in 2014 and 2015 respectively.

Meanwhile, the navy’s Maritime Capability Perspective Plan (MCPP) exists only on paper. Formulated in 2005, the MCPP projects a 160 ship-strong navy, including 90 front-line combat platforms (major warships like aircraft carriers, destroyers, frigates and corvettes). Actual numbers are far more modest. The INS Sahyadri, the navy’s latest warship that was commissioned last month, is its 134th ship.

According to a 2010 CAG report on warship building, this year the navy will have just 44 per cent of the destroyers it needs; 61 per cent of the frigates; and 20 per cent of its requirement of corvettes (destroyers are heavy warships, above 6,000 tonnes; frigates usually weigh under 5,500-6,000 tonnes; while corvettes are usually below 2,500 tonnes).

The navy has only itself to blame for delays in Project 15A. With MDL having successfully built three destroyers under Project 15 (INS Delhi, INS Mysore and INS Mumbai), Project 15A was to be a follow-on class, three more destroyers built quickly using basically the same design and technologies. Instead, the navy demanded 2,363 modifications, including major changes in weaponry, sensors and helicopter systems.

According to the CAG’s audit report, the Kashtan surface-to-air missile was replaced with the Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LR-SAM), which the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) is still co-developing with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI). To strengthen the destroyer’s anti-submarine capabilities, it was decided to include a bow-mounted sonar, the DRDO’s Humsa sonar. And the entire helicopter hangar was redesigned to accommodate a bigger helicopter.

To make matters worse, many of these decisions were taken late, necessitating major reconstruction. The CAG points out that the decision on the Humsa sonar was taken “after MDL had completed the detailed design, production, assembly and erection of the bow structure without sonar”, which called for major redesign. Similarly, the navy decided to change the gun mount in March 2008, after the first ship was launched. This “necessitated redesign of the entire structure around the gun mount…” says the CAG.

Naturally, the delays have been enormous. While Project 15 vessels were built in 108 months, Project 15A vessels will take 140 months to delivery. This is twice as long as Korean shipyards like Hyundai and Daewoo, which take 66-72 months (including the pre-build period) for a comparable warship. Western shipyards like DCNS (France), Fincantieri (Italy), or Northrop Grumman (USA) typically take 78-80 months.

MDL’s new chairman, Rear Admiral (Retired) Rahul Kumar Shrawat, plays down the delay, pointing out that the vessels are now close to completion. “It is the navy’s endeavour to put the latest equipment on a new warship. That is a legitimate user aspiration,” he says.

But Shrawat would not like the same mistakes to be made in Project 15B, another follow on project, under which MDL will build four destroyers similar to the Kolkata Class. Shrawat hopes that Project 15B destroyers, which will start being constructed this year, will incorporate the same LR-SAM, Brahmos cruise missile and helicopter hangar that is being installed in Project 15A.

“The lesson learnt is that the systems that are proven on one platform, unless they genuinely require upgrading, should perhaps be used for the follow-on platform as well. But, as a shipyard, we do not control that. We can only recommend to the navy,” says Shrawat.

The Rs 29,325 crores contract for Project 15B was concluded in Jan 2011. Production will start by year-end, with the first destroyer being delivered in 2018 and the other three at one-year intervals.


Here is an asssoc. report:

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 022_1.html
Mazagon Dock may split order among 4
Windfall for shipbuilders, move to avoid fresh controversy and speedy delivery

Xcpt:
The need to hasten implementation and avoid any further confrontation with other shipbuilding companies may see Mazagon Dock, India’s largest defence shipyard, split its ambitious Rs 1-lakh-crore naval order book among four major Indian private shipbuilders. After Pipapav Defence, Mazagon is considering similar joint ventures with L&T, ABG Shipyard and Bharati Shipyard, say people in the know.

Pipavav and Mazagon have already agreed on collaboration, but the agreement between the two does not have any exclusivity clause. “Pipavav is the preferred partner, but Mazagon may also explore roping in others, considering the strategic nature of national security,” said a senior official from one of these shipbuilding companies, on condition of anonymity.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Victor » 05 Dec 2013 20:37

Sena, BJP slam govt for failure to protect 'Vikrant'
"If politicians in Maharashtra were to observe a 'corruption-free day', it could lead to savings of Rs 1,000 crore. Many a political bigwig in the state is worth at least Rs 5,000 crore," Uddhav said...

...The Defence Ministry was supposed to have allocated Rs 40 crore of the Rs 64 crore needed to repair and refurbish the ship...

...Terming IMS Vikrant as the pride of the nation, Somaiya said, "the Congress-NCP government could indulge in a Rs 70,000 crore irrigation scam, but could not find Rs 64 crore to maintain the warship."

I am convinced the congis are pandering to the same forces that trashed the Amar Jawan monument in Mumbai.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 06 Dec 2013 11:10

Brahmos Launch Video from INS Rajput

http://youtu.be/IrFMHWSewro

What interesting is after the booster cut off it does not go parabolic but flies higher perhaps a test for high altitude trajectory flight ?

Recent salvo launch of Onyx from Yasen ....should pave way for Sub launched Brahmos

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/zvezdoch ... 24_900.jpg

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 06 Dec 2013 11:29

yes I guess the same sub caliber type system or a variant we might have used on arihant already :)

apparently it can pack 40 klubs, or 32 kalibr or a mix in vls and surely has room with 10TT for 30 HWT or mines.

definitely the most badass beast of the seas.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 06 Dec 2013 11:56

Avinandan wrote:I observed that IN doesn't employ any Vertically Launched Anti Submarine Missiles ( e.g. ASROCK). Apart from normal torpedoes, IN has generally installed RBU-6000 as its primary anti submarine system. Almost all modern navy have employed ASROCK type systems for submarine defence. Russia itself uses soviet era SS-N-14 Silex or the latest RPK-2 Viyuga along with RBU-6000 for submarine defence. It also plans to install ASW-UDAV instead of RBU-6000 in their latest Udaloy-II destroyers.

Question 1 : Is RBU-6000 sufficient for Indian Navy or it would be supplemented by ASROCK type systems later on ? The range of rockets is too low in IMHO.
Question 2: Wikipediasays that RBU-6000 has an upgrade option of RPK-8 firing the 90R rocket, which is actively guided in the water. Should IN opt for this upgrade ?


As explained by Mr TSarkar IN's prime ASW defence is helicopters and HWT. This is probably the situation with most of the Navys.

ASROC first came with a dedicated 8-missile rectangular launcher. Later on it to used the Mk 41 VLS. In between ASROC was also adapted to be launched from the Tarter / Terrier ShAM launchers. ASROC's range is/was some 20 km which is same as the HWT. The only advantage that ASROC would reach faster than a HWT.

In the good old days of Cold War Australia, yes Australia, developed a the Ikara system, which was conceptually similar to ASROC. French had their Malafon ASW system.

Neither the SS-N-14 Silex or UDAV have VLS. They have "SAM type" launchers. The Soviets had another such system on their Moskva / Leningrada helicopters and maybe on Kiev / Minsk / Gorshkov / Kuznetsov ships.

K

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Dec 2013 15:50

Did we ever induct the 91RE1 and 91RE2 missiles of the Klub family, the ones where a light weight 324mm toperdo is flown near the enemy submarine before parachuting into the water. if so which ships have we deployed them?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby merlin » 06 Dec 2013 18:16

ramana wrote:

The report says short circuit and the ship is gutted.

Some thing of stand down is needed.
Most likely heads need to roll to make people understand responsibility.


INS Konkan
INS Vindhyagiri
INS Sindhurakshak
INS Prahar
INS Andaman

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 06 Dec 2013 19:08

it gets worse:

February 22, '06
Five sailors die in a fire on board INS Magar off Vizag while disposing of ordnance.

December 2005
INS Trishul's captain admits his fault after it collides with a merchant ship.

March 2004
Corvette INS Agray written off after anti-submarine rocket explodes near it.

November 1999
Fleet tanker INS Jyoti collides with a merchant vessel in the Bay of Bengal.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 07 Dec 2013 09:36

Not to mention the loss of the Vindhyagiri after a collision and the tragic loss of the SRakshak.INS Andamans was also lost earlier and I recollect that one of our missile boats caught fire in the Bombay dockyard and was written off.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 07 Dec 2013 10:14

either the eqpt is really old and being stretched beyond limits(mig-21) or there are training lacunae.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 07 Dec 2013 10:31

The INS Andaman that was lost earlier was a Petya submarine chaser. From merlin's list it seems that the name has been adopted again for the minesweeper class vessel.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 07 Dec 2013 10:44

Add ... H2S inhalation related deaths aboard the Jalashwa to the list. Or even the recent issue with the Kamorta.

Karan M wrote:either the eqpt is really old and being stretched beyond limits(mig-21) or there are training lacunae.


Or a combination of multiple factors...

Around 10 years back IAF was under fire from the media and populace at large viz accident rate. Today we do not hear such noise and in fact the number of accidents has indeed come down. The numbers establish that indeed there was a sharp decrease in accidents.

What we do not know is how this was accomplished. Or in other words, what was IAF doing wrong earlier? Retiring of the old MiG-23BNs, MiG-23MFs, upgraded Bisons and like definitely helped. So did availability of simulators and AJTs. Elimination of practices like chakkar sortie over airbase were removed. But I doubt we know the complete story; a topic to be researched in depth scientifically.

Unlike aircraft, the IN will generally not see spectacular "fails" - but they have have been occurring nevertheless. Is the record "bad", "average" or "good": not easy to answer as we do not have a reference.

To start with, we need identify the measurement currency. For example, in aircraft it is generally measured per 10,000 or 100,000 flight hours in peacetime. While during war attition per 100 sorties. What is applicable for ships? Secondly, is there any trend in these statistics?

What is clear is that the Navy should accept that the public at large has a right to be concerned, and unless they take proactive measures to communicate, there is potentially a lot of bad press thrown at them just like it was with IAF earlier.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 07 Dec 2013 13:13

I was just going through the SIPRI arms transfer database and found the following entry - deal for 50 Klubs for the P28s signed in 2003 of which 10 seem to have been delivered in 2012:

Russia India Russia India
50 (50)
3M-54 Klub/SS-N-27 Kh-35 Uran/SS-N-25
Anti-ship MI/SSM Anti-ship missile
2003 2011
2012 - 2012 (10) 2012 - 2012 (50)
For Kamorta (Project-28) frigates

I thought that it was felt that there was no space on the ships for anti ship missiles - I even remember Singha asking the IN to cut us some slack and put a few Urans amidships. Dare we hope ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_22539 » 07 Dec 2013 16:02

^ I really hope that is true (fingers crossed). What is the opinion of the resident experts?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Dec 2013 18:13

I am no expert, but really given our paltry number of principal combatants vs the IOR area, not equipping a next-gen ship like P28 for ASMs is not done. even the much smaller primitive ships like P25 carry 16xurans up front.
what if there is no submarine threat to hunt....does the P28 just sit there waiting for work or join its cousins in land attack/surface attack role? what if a lone P28 guarding some sector of Guj coast picks up 2 TSP missile corvettes heading to pound dwaraka?

even uran/harpoon is ok but something has to be there longer ranged than the main gun!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 07 Dec 2013 19:38

Aditya G, many measures were taken by the IAF, but the biggest one undoubtedly has to be the gradual retirement of the most dangerous single engine types which were being used in hazardous mission profiles.
In IN case, I think their issue too is the mix of aging equipment and SOPs being followed on an ad hoc basis. Latter is usually done again in time of resource constraints. Get things done with max jugaad because it has to be done, somehow.
Basically, the politico-bureaucrat class has completely messed up procurement, and all our services are saddled with aging kit and make do attitude.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Dec 2013 21:06

We need ten p28 and ten saryu-mki ships to replace the small fry.
also 10-15 mcm vessels to clear areas near naval ports.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Dec 2013 21:06

Maybe get Hyundai to build p28 for us lol

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 07 Dec 2013 21:27

Singha wrote:We need ten p28 and ten saryu-mki ships to replace the small fry.
also 10-15 mcm vessels to clear areas near naval ports.


A much cheaper alternative: Get rid of Pakistan.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Victor » 07 Dec 2013 21:40

Add to above tragedies the midair collision of two Il-38s over Dabolim during the silver jubiliee parade. All 12 crew killed.

"I would say that our record is not all that bad. We have had accidents there is no denying but if you compare with other navies...," Navy Chief Admiral DK Joshi said..
Link
How do we compare with other comparable navies I wonder?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 07 Dec 2013 22:40

Singha wrote:Maybe get Hyundai to build p28 for us lol


Trust me they will deliver the hulls in 18 months and will be able to help you commission it in another 24 months. The Hyundai folks are masters at the art.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 07 Dec 2013 23:11

Victor wrote:Add to above tragedies the midair collision of two Il-38s over Dabolim during the silver jubiliee parade. All 12 crew killed.

"I would say that our record is not all that bad. We have had accidents there is no denying but if you compare with other navies...," Navy Chief Admiral DK Joshi said..
Link
How do we compare with other comparable navies I wonder?


US has had a string of accidents in recent years. UK had a couple of high profile sub related issues but dont remember their overall record.
Comparisons are good for benchmarking, but more than comparisons, IN has to get its house in order for its own sake.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 08 Dec 2013 00:03

pushkar.bhat wrote:Trust me they will deliver the hulls in 18 months and will be able to help you commission it in another 24 months. The Hyundai folks are masters at the art.


I can't find the link but one retired RN admiral was quoted as saying had the QE2 class been built in SOKO it would have come in half the time and cost.

It's not silly to speculate that a tri-nation (India, Japan SOKO) could collaborate on CVAs, and warships. Just the political imagination and will on all sides is lacking.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 08 Dec 2013 02:32

Arun Menon wrote:^ I really hope that is true (fingers crossed). What is the opinion of the resident experts?

I would take what Spiri says with a grain of salt they simply speculating based on arms transfer. P-28 doesn't even have a fire control radar for AshM. The helos will carry anti shipping missile.

How do we compare with other comparable navies I wonder?

It is due to large number of vintage soviet era vessels and platforms with exception of incident with 30+ year Trenton, the western and indigenous equipment have fared better.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 08 Dec 2013 04:45

Beautiful video


indiannavy-Maritime security through self reliance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry5N_7V6 ... pp=desktop

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 08 Dec 2013 08:34

The Constellation and Saratoga are being sold,to the breakers for the price of "one cent"! Yes,if we have the b*lls and wisdom,we would get the big tkt items built abroad at speed and lower cost than "reinventing the catamaran at home".All our shipyards are full of orders and almost all are badly behind time and have drastically exceeded costs.Years ago in conversation with a diplomat/ambassador,he remarked when serving in Korea diplomatically,how they had to ceremonially take over a ship built by Hyundai,Daewoo,whatever delivered earlier than contracted.Expecting a large crowd at the handover,he was shocked when he saw barely a couple of dozen workers,who had built the entire ship.Contrast this with the launch of the IAC-1,or even the P-28,where we had hundreds of workers,et al aboard the carrier/frigate.There is no sanctity getting ships and subs built abroad if the need is there.WE have successfully acquired 5 Talwars built at speed and at affordable costs by Russia .In fact,the entire lot of mine countermeasure vessels could've been built by SoKo and if a SoKo design is chosen for the amphib vessel requirement,the first two could be built there.

As long as the vessels are built to specs,on time and within budget,it will provide the IN with timely assets with which to meet its op requirements.The modernisation of our DPSU yards must take place with more handed over to pvt. yards set up at great cost,which can build in collaboration with foreign yards.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 08 Dec 2013 09:20

Karan M wrote:Beautiful video

Indeed.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Dec 2013 10:04

NRao wrote:
Singha wrote:We need ten p28 and ten saryu-mki ships to replace the small fry.
also 10-15 mcm vessels to clear areas near naval ports.


A much cheaper alternative: Get rid of Pakistan.


TSP is not a problem. Cheen is. how do you get rid of it?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Dec 2013 10:05

seriously yantar or some other italian/spanish shipyard struggling with budget cuts might be willing to build P28/Saryu ships in bulk quickly for us under license.

why should GRSE grab all the P28 order?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 08 Dec 2013 10:52

Singha wrote:TSP is not a problem. Cheen is. how do you get rid of it?


Get rid of pakis. China cannot deal with India in IOR without her pearls. And if she does not get into IOR India can perhaps keep out of the pacific.

Singha wrote:seriously yantar or some other italian/spanish shipyard struggling with budget cuts might be willing to build P28/Saryu ships in bulk quickly for us under license.

why should GRSE grab all the P28 order?


That is how we started with the Russia and Vicky too. Unless they have a dog in this game with china they will make India pay. Japan is the best, perhaps SoKo may play the game properly.

Certainly not Russia. For sure.


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