Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

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Aditya G
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 25 Dec 2013 16:33

We hear of safety related incidents in the press, which usually publishes incomplete facts. Without complete data, and trends, we should not be so quick to attribute an accident to lack of training or quality of same. We hear about the accident only because it happened, but not the countless time the same training averted collisions.

The fishing community also has a role to play in these accidents. There are examples in recent times they have exposed themselves to danger:

- Collision with MV Prabhu Daya (sic). The fisherman was totally devastated and all lives lost.
- Close proximity to MV Enrica Lexie leading to firing by onboard security team killing 2 on board.

So lets cut the navy some slack.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Peregrine » 25 Dec 2013 17:45

Vinod Ji wrote:
Vipul wrote:Two arrested after INS Talwar collides with fishing boat.

INS Talwar, the lead ship of the Talwar-class frigates of the Indian Navy, collided with a fishing vessel on Monday night. <snip>


Not a flattering picture of Indian Navy's training..

& Then booking the fishing boat navigating without lights For Pete's sake..
What if the same boat was on a suicide mission.

Reminds me of USS Cole In Middle east


Vinod Ji :

Points to consider :

1. Fishing Boat with 27 Crew on board? Wow!

2. The following from the Article :

"The boat did not have night operation facility, which is why the navy ship collided with it," Pandey added.

A case has been registered under sections 280 (rash navigation of a vessel), 282 (conveying a person by water for hire in an unsafe or overloaded vessel), 283 (danger or obstruction in public way or line of navigation) and 337 (causing hurt by an act that endangers the life or personal safety of others) after the navy filed an official complaint against the boat owner on Tuesday afternoon.

Sir Ji it is more of a Fishing Vessel and should have exhibited 1. A light in Front, 2. Two Side lights 3. A light at the back - a total of Four Lights of which at least ONE would have been visible and possibly even TWO . It had none of these. In addition by describing it as a boat it must have been made of wood and when low in the water may not even had been picked up by the Radar.

As such please do not question the " Indian Navy's Training" as on the Bridge of the INS Talwar they must have had at least 12 Officers and men with at least three on "look-out" duty.

This collision must be considered in the light of the Enemy using a similar "boat" - it must be quite big to be able to accommodate 27 Crew - for Suicide Attacks!
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Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Peregrine » 25 Dec 2013 17:56

IT IS A FISHING TRAWLER

Navy ship collides with fishing trawler

Twenty-seven fishermen were rescued by the Navy after a navy vessel collided with a fishing trawler near Ratnagiri district in Maharashtra on Monday night. Luckily the Navy personnel were able to rescue all the fishermen on-board.

The incident happened around 8.30 pm on Monday night. Navy claims that the fishing trawler, AL Soban, wasn’t lit and therefore Navy vessel - INS Talwar collided with it. “Two to three fishermen have sustained major injuries and they have been admitted to a local hospital,” sources in the Navy told The Hindu .

A case has been registered against the owner, Nazri Sartar of the trawler under various sections of the IPC. “A case has been registered on the complaint made by Capt. Gopal Suri, commanding officer of the navy vessel. The fishing boat got damaged due to the collision and it sunk,” Deepak Pandey , Superintendent of police , Ratnagiri told The Hindu ..

Forum Members in Mumbai are requested to try and find the Full Specs and if possible a photo of Al Soban.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 25 Dec 2013 18:14

Does the typical navigation radar able to pick small fishing trawlers?
imo if radar is not able to cope we need thermal imager in remote control mode arop the bridge to tag these obstacles.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Peregrine » 25 Dec 2013 18:40

Eric Leiderman wrote:Brando


For any collision to have occured both parties have to have made mistakes. Yes the fishing boat did not have running lights, so what, the naval vessel has sophisticated eqq on board and should have been able to avoid it.


Not necessarily - It takes only one fool to have a collision-smash up.

Neither did she have - as you say - "running lights" nor "fishing lights" as per following Rules :

Rule 26 -- Navigation Lights for Fishing Vessels

(a) A vessel engaged in fishing, whether underway or at anchor, shall exhibit only the lights and shapes prescribed in this Rule.

(b) A vessel when engaged in trawling, by which is meant the dragging through the water of a dredge net or other apparatus used as a fishing appliance, shall exhibit:

(i) two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being green and the lower white, or a shape consisting of two cones with their apexes together in a vertical line one above the other;

(ii) a masthead light abaft of and higher than the all-round green light; a vessel of less than 50 meters in length shall not be obliged to exhibit such a light but may do so;

(iii) when making way through the water, in addition to the lights prescribed in this paragraph, sidelights and a sternlight.



To avoid a collision merchant navigators
1) change course 2) slow down 3) maintain a good visual watch in addition on the aids to navigation like RADAR SONAR etc. 3A) Illuminate the offending vessel with her searchlight 4) Use a loudhailer


1. & 2. You can only change course or slow down if you see the other vessel. 3. I don't think a merchant vessel would carry SONAR. 3A. The Searchlight can only be used on the "Vessel" (in this case INS Talwar) becoming aware of "Offending Vessel" (Al Soban) as keeping the Search Light "ON" all the time would cause "Blindness" to the "Look-outs". 4. A "Loudhailer" can only be used if the position or direction of the offending vessel is known.

The fishing vessel is not a small one if she carried close to 30 people , therfore she has to have given a sizable radar echo, (even if built of wood)

It would not be professional to place the whole blame on the fishing vessel, The navy might be delving deeper into this incident especially since there has been a loss of life.


There is something "fishy" about the Al Soban. Trawlers do not carry such a large crew!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 25 Dec 2013 19:44

lots of surveillance/spy ships are disguised as fishing trawlers..esp chinese ! .. maybe navy should have a dekko at what it carried..

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 25 Dec 2013 21:32

the typical coastal west coast fishing trawler seems to carry around 8 people of which one guy is the cook/handyman, rest man the nets and one person(captain) is in the small bridge.
30 is exceptional...no way it can accomodate so many unless it was functioning as a ferry.
however I have seen larger deep sea fishing vessels that catch things like tuna that might need a larger crew as the fish are frozen on the ship itself?
http://www.navegando.info/fotos/alakrana_JLDC.jpg
photo caption said this vessel had crew of 36
http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/sh ... tes/page20

Early on the morning of 2 October, Somali pirates gained control of the Spanish tuna fishing vessel ALAKRANA, midway between the Seychelles and the Somali port of Kismayo, some 400 miles offshore. The fishing vessel, with a crew of 36, was just two days into an expedition.

-----
BUT if this thing struck the talwar enough for fishing vessel to sink the Talwar would have suffered huge damage as well...so it cant be a big boat.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Peregrine » 25 Dec 2013 22:11

Singha wrote:the typical coastal west coast fishing trawler seems to carry around 8 people of which one guy is the cook/handyman, rest man the nets and one person(captain) is in the small bridge.
30 is exceptional...no way it can accomodate so many unless it was functioning as a ferry.
however I have seen larger deep sea fishing vessels that catch things like tuna that might need a larger crew as the fish are frozen on the ship itself?
http://www.navegando.info/fotos/alakrana_JLDC.jpg
photo caption said this vessel had crew of 36
http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/sh ... tes/page20

Early on the morning of 2 October, Somali pirates gained control of the Spanish tuna fishing vessel ALAKRANA, midway between the Seychelles and the Somali port of Kismayo, some 400 miles offshore. The fishing vessel, with a crew of 36, was just two days into an expeditio
-----
BUT if this thing struck the talwar enough for fishing vessel to sink the Talwar would have suffered huge damage as well...so it cant be a big boat.


Singha Ji :

The Spanish tuna fishing vessel ALAKRANA is more of a Factory Ship as it has a Gross tonnage of Over 3700 Tonnes which would point out to a capacity of over 12,000 Cu. M..

In contrast the AL SOBAN is most definitely not a Fishing Trawler - it would exhibit its "running lights" as it will have its Fishing Nets out in the Water and would indicate to other ships to keep well clear of it.

As such with 27 to 30 people on board one would tend to consider it as a Sailing Vessel, possibly motorized, carrying laborers for the Persian Gulf.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 25 Dec 2013 22:22

you mean people smugglers? does any legit gulf labour traffic use dhows/MVs still ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Peregrine » 26 Dec 2013 00:05

Singha wrote:you mean people smugglers? does any legit gulf labour traffic use dhows/MVs still ?


Singha Ji :

Legit labour would most probably Travel by Air. As such 30 people traveling on a so called "fishing boat" would be for some other purpose than "fishing". Let us watch for the further developments!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Eric Leiderman » 26 Dec 2013 02:46

Singha
to answer yr question
A simple x or s band radar is more than capable of picking up smaller boats 12 feet wooden at 5 nautical miles on a calm day

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 26 Dec 2013 04:37

Yes,the warship should've picked up the "fishing" vessel on its radar.However,the manner in which that vessel reacted and behaved is another matter that we are unaware of.I was told by a friend who often sails in waters off the Indo-Lankan-Maldives coastline at sea,that at night they often suddenly come upon strange vessels which put their lights on only at the last moment to avoid a collision.Most of these vessels are in the drugs,gold and arms smuggling industry.They usually make offshore transfers to smaller vessels ,something that the authorities are investigating with the US anti-piracy vessel which mysteriously obtained arms at sea before being caught by the CG.Tough times for the Officer of the Watch of the Talwar though.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Dec 2013 07:23

i read somewhere traditional dhows still ply between our coast and arabia, taking things like live goats and agri products perhaps cheaper and more agile about point of delivery than bigger ships.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Dec 2013 08:27

Could it be the Navy wanted to teach these guys a lesson and rammed them.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 26 Dec 2013 14:14

It is unlikely that our navy would be so callous with Indian lives.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Peregrine » 26 Dec 2013 19:52

Singha wrote:i read somewhere traditional dhows still ply between our coast and arabia, taking things like live goats and agri products perhaps cheaper and more agile about point of delivery than bigger ships.


Singha Ji :

Many thanks for above.

Meantime, we need the full specs of AL SOBAN to find out the purpose of its "trading" and the reason for carrying a Crew of 30.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Dec 2013 20:35

here is the kind of case I was referring to. why would dubai export live goats to sri lanka? or was it just meat on the hoof in old royal navy style?
http://freepressjournal.in/were-the-goa ... ned-goods/
these munnas was somehow detected for using thuraya phone and rounded up. not sure how we detected this.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vishvak » 26 Dec 2013 20:40

This also means we need to step up surveillance farther from coastline as well for avoiding accidents by boats hiding in dark.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Dec 2013 21:06

by this year end we were supposed to have a chain of coastal radar stations networked and in place. not sure how that project went on or got canned.
http://www.defencenow.com/news/530/indi ... r-end.html

The long-delayed $133.75-million contract for coastal radars, to be put up by defence public sector Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) in collaboration with a foreign firm, was inked in September last year. The project envisages 36 coastal radars in the mainland, six in Lakshadweep and Minicoy Islands, and four in Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

The plan is to have the radar chain for the mainland in a year and the island ones to become operational in another six months after that.

Apart from existing lighthouses on which the radars with electro-optic sensors will be installed, 13 towers are being constructed on the mainland for housing the them. Under the Phase-II of the project, 45 additional radars will follow.

--
apparently we had taken it seriously and 1st phase is now over. GOI approved the 2nd phase
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... system-icg

The central government has approved the setting up of 38 radar stations across the country in the second phase under Coastal Surveillance Network, said defence secretary R K Mathur, adding that the first phase of the network comprising 46 radar stations was expected to be completed by October. Out of the 46 radar stations to be set up in the first phase, six are in AP, including Kalingapatnam, Visakhapatnam, Kakinada, Machilipatnam, Ramaiayapatnam and Krishnapatnam.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Dec 2013 21:10

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 026_1.html

The Remote Operating Station (ROS) set up as part of the Coastal Radar Network to provide security cover for the coastline was commissioned in Kochi on Saturday. The Bangalore-based defence PSU, Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) has developed the ROS for the Indian Coast Guard.

The Coastal Radar Network project aims at preventing undetected intrusion by monitoring the movement of vessels plying along the coastline. The project would also aid in enhancing the efficacy of Search and Rescue (SAR) operations coordinated by the Coast Guard. The sensor data generated by the Coastal Surveillance Network would also be shared with other maritime agencies to generate a comprehensive Maritime Domain Awareness (MDA).

BEL is setting up a chain of Remote Sensor Stations along the coastline of India as part of the coastal radar network. Static sensors such as radars, radios, electro optic sensors and meteorological sensors are installed at these remote sensor stations to monitor the coastline. Information from all these sensors and other sensors like automatic identification systems are correlated to provide a composite operating picture at operation centres.

The data generated by the Static Sensors will flow over a robust hierarchical network architecture. The network centric coastal radar network developed by BEL provides total scalable surveillance solution. The system presents the complete surveillance scenario on digital maps at the centralised Command Centre where the information is processed and archived, the BEL said in a statement.

Vice Admiral M P Muraleedharan, Director General, Coast Guard inaugurated the station in the presence of several Coast Guard officials and ministry of defence officials among others.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Dec 2013 21:14


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vic » 26 Dec 2013 21:34

Why are we importing the radars? Could we not have used CAR or Rohini variants?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rishirishi » 27 Dec 2013 01:07

Have actually operated advanced military western radar. You constantly get a a lot of small false targets. There are long range mode and a short range mode radars. The radar may pick up a small target and you would normally expect the smaller boats to stear clear. If the echo is far away or not crossing our course, you may not want to do anything about it. Radar is not the primary source of navigation. It is rather an extra safety feature (apart from acuiring military targets).

In this case there are several strange issues. Firstly, a boat carrying 36 people should be lit up and have a radio. The military ship should have been visual from a long distance. Maybe they had some rookie for the night time shift. Maybe the IN ship was on a "war mode" or maybe the fishing boat was involved in something illegal.

Mistakes happen even to the best. We should not read too much into it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Dec 2013 07:54

vic wrote:Why are we importing the radars? Could we not have used CAR or Rohini variants?


probably cost factor. these radars look cheap and simple like the navigation radars found on small ships.
ofcourse if LRDE could come up with CAR, they can make this too...but they are focussed on costlier and higher priority defence needs. so the likes of kelvin hughes get to build scale and rule the roost with their big home markets.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Peregrine » 27 Dec 2013 18:32

Rishirishi wrote:Have actually operated advanced military western radar. You constantly get a a lot of small false targets. There are long range mode and a short range mode radars. The radar may pick up a small target and you would normally expect the smaller boats to stear clear. If the echo is far away or not crossing our course, you may not want to do anything about it. Radar is not the primary source of navigation. It is rather an extra safety feature (apart from acuiring military targets).

In this case there are several strange issues. Firstly, a boat carrying 36 people should be lit up and have a radio. The military ship should have been visual from a long distance. Maybe they had some rookie for the night time shift. Maybe the IN ship was on a "war mode" or maybe the fishing boat was involved in something illegal.

Mistakes happen even to the best. We should not read too much into it.


Rishirishi Ji :

1. The main culprit is Sea Clutter and I am sure that the "Radar Observer" on the INS Talwar could distinguish Clutter from an actual Boat-Craft-Ship.

2. Naval ships, whilst at sea, do not have the "Bridge" in charge of a Rookie for the “Night Time shift” nor do they have a “Night Time Shift”. The 24 Day at Sea is divided into Watches – I think mainly of Four Hours duration – and the Senior Watch Officer on the INS Talwar would be at least a Senior Lieutenant if not a Lieutenant Commander as the ship is under the Command of a CAPTAIN. In addition they have a couple of Petty Officers and Leading Seamen in-on every Watch..

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 27 Dec 2013 21:04

That looks like X Band coastal surveillance system by Kelvin Hughes.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby A Sharma » 28 Dec 2013 08:19

L&T News Magazine

L&T contribution to electrical system aboard under construction INS Vikrant is detailed

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 29 Dec 2013 08:47

Rear cockpit of IN Mig-29 KUB

http://i.imgur.com/cKLX1GC.jpg

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pragnya » 29 Dec 2013 10:05

The Modern Indian Navy

Gunnery. The Indian Navy has only a few varieties of guns for surface, anti-air and anti-missile operations. The Type 17 Shivalik, Brahmaputra and Godavari class and warships built in India, are fitted with the Italian Oto Melara 76mm/62 (3”) super rapid 85 rounds per minute with range up to 16 km with 6 kg rounds. The gun is manufactured and assembled and supplied by Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd (BHEL). The Navy also has Russian single powerful 100mm AK 190 gun which fires 60 rounds of 15.6 kg per minute to a range of 21.5 km, on the Krivacks .The long range guns are controlled by ship’s Fregat radar and fire control radar. The AK-630/230 guns on ships described above are in service.

Missilery. The Styx missiles era has moved on for the Indian Navy to 130km KH-35E 4 Quad Uran (Zvezda SS-N-26) Switchblade on the three Brahmaputra class and four Kora class corvettes. The air-launched 3MF- 25E version can be launched from MiG- 29Ks and Su-30 MKIs. The longer range 220 km Alpha Novator Club family of missiles SS-N-27 (3M-54-TE) are fitted in the three Type P17 Shivalik and the three Krivacks of the Talwar Class from Yantar and, also, on five out of nine remaining Sindughosh class submarines as, INS Sindhurakshak suffered explosions on August 14. The missiles are both ship and land attack versions. The DRDO has supplied the nuclear tipped 300km Dhanush and the versatile Brahmos (PJ-10) 299km land and ship attack missiles with IR and radar and GPS guidance, with way point navigation. Brahmos is being fitted progressively on the Kashins (three converted), and are operational on Batch two Krivacks from Yantar (INS Teg, Tarkash and Trikand) and will be fitted on the three Type 15A Kolkutta class, and all future warships. The Kolkutta is set to be commissioned early next year. In due course the nuclear submarine INS Arihant, awaiting trials will be fitted out with twelve 750 Km Kalam-15/Bhasin-05 Sagarika missiles in a plug with nuclear war heads. DRDO is working on a longer heavier range missile for the succeeding nuclear submarines with a Anti-Air and Anti- Missile Systems. For anti-air and anti-missile action the 25 km twin Shtil SA-N-7 9 (M317E) system is fitted in the Talwar class Krivacks and the Shivaliks. The Delhi class has the Kashmir (Uragan) 25 km SAM-2 SA-7-N Gadfly semi active radar and IR homing and the Kashtan with twin 30mm Gatling gun firing 800 rounds/min to 2 km with compact laser guided eight 8-kg missiles from a launcher up to a range of 8km, from an optronic director which is similar to the Tanguska, being replaced. The INS Viraat, Godavari class, the Type 15 Delhi class and Type 17 Shivaliks and the Kashins have been progressively fitted with the Israeli supplied Octuple IA/Rafael Barak VLS AA missile with command line or optical guidance with the AMDR radars, up to 8 km. The DRDO-IARafael Barak LR SAM akin to the Barak 8 is being developed and will be fitted in future ships beginning with INS Kolkutta.

Underwater Weaponry. The INS Chakra and Kilo Sindhughosh class submarines are fitted a mix of six 21-inch Type 53-65 passive wake homing anti-ship torpedoes with 305 kg war head to 19km and TEST 76-96anti submarine active/passive homing torpedoes to 15 km at 40 knots or to 20 km at 25 knots with 220 kg warhead .The torpedoes for submarines remain as supplied by Russia but manufactured in Kyrgyzstan originally. The four HDW 1500 Shishumar submarines are fitted with fourteen 21 inch AEG SUT wire-guided 21- inch torpedoes with active/passive homing to 28 km at 33 knots. The submarines can strap mines on deck for laying. The Scorpene torpedo selection is awaited between the Italian WASS Blackshark and German Atlas Electronik Seahake The DRDO is developing a variety of torpedoes including the heavy weight Varunashastra, a lightweight and a helicopter launched. The ships have a variety of ASW RBU-2000 and RBU -6000 rocket launchers.

Aerial Armament. The aging Sea Harriers with 30mm guns have been converted to fire anti-ship Derby missiles. The lethal armament on the MiG-29Ks comprises the 57mm rockets, 150/250/500kg bombs, and aerial launched 3MF-25E anti-ship missile and a BVR missile. The Boeing P8i Maritime Reconnaissance (MR) has the latest US supplied MK 54 torpedoes for ASW and AGM-84L Harpoons for anti-ship warfare with associated electronics, which can be launched from the torpedo tube launcher.

- Commodore (Retd) Ranjit B Rai is the author of ‘A Nation and Its Navy at War’ (Lancers 1988) and Former Director Intelligence and Naval Operations.

© India Strategic

The progression of Indian Navy’s weaponry and status


Plans are there to begin construction of a second indigenous carrier, of about 60,000 tonnesplus. The Directorate of Naval Design (DND) is already considering what equipment should be on board, and according to Vice Chief of the Navy Vice Admiral Robin Dhowan, all options from nuclear to steam propulsion, the type of aircraft and escort vessels and so on are on the table for both INS Vikrant and the possible second indigenous carrier.

Conventionally, aircraft are launched by steam-propelled catapults. The US Navy, which maintains a fleet of 11 large aircraft carriers around the world, has decided to go in for Electro-Magnetic Aircraft Launch Systems (EMALS) and its developer, General Atomics has offered the technology to India this year. This is also being considered although decisions on various aspects of technology are a bit far.

Looking for core design capabilities, and evolving sophistication of technologies, DND has set up specialist groups in hydrodynamics, hull design,structures, propulsion, automation and stealth. Leading companies from around the world have made offers and they are being evaluated.

Admiral Joshi made it clear that while there is due emphasis on aircraft carriers, the submarine programme is given equal importance. The existing Scorpene project, initially delayed, is now on its revised schedule and the Government has approved the budget for six more, newer, submarines with Air Independent Propulsion (AIP). It wouldn’t be long before the process is formally put to the global shipping industry for tenders.

As for the Navy getting ready for INS Vikramaditya, he said that her complement of MiG-29K fighters, already at Goa, are undertaking intensive training, to commence deck flying as soon as the carrier comes in the Indian waters.

At INS Hansa, the training station in Goa where the MiG-29s are located, batches of pilots are doing the intensive routine on both simulators and flights. This writer, recently in Goa, was told by Rear Admiral Balwinder Singh Parhar, Flag Officer Naval Aviation and Commanding Goa Naval Area, that the pilots were keenly awaiting with their aircraft to board their mother ship and begin operations. “It would be a big day for all of us when Vikramaditya arrives.”
The Navy has set up a 14 degree ski to replicate takeoffs from the carrier and an arrested wire recovery has also just been completed at Goa. INS Vikramaditya though would be berthed at the new and nearby Karwar port, built specifically to accommodate large vessels.

Admiral Joshi observed out that “Vikramaditya bridges the time gap between Indian Navy’s existing capability and our indigenous aircraft carrier project.”
While the Navy’s diesel-electric submarines and helicopter modernisation programmes have been slow, or stuck, its Naval Aviation has literally been on the flying colours path. The Indian Navy marked 60 years of naval aviation this year, INS Vikramaditya is on way home from Russia, several aviation infrastructure projects have been completed, and three Boeing P8-I long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft have arrived as scheduled. Five more should arrive in 2014 and there could be a repeat order for eight to 12 aircraft.

Indian Navy: Aims for Three Aircraft Carriers

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 31 Dec 2013 10:31

A Noob Pooch?
I have seen multiple picture of Kora Class Corvette with it Four Quad Launchers of 3M-24 anti-ship missiles on patrol (including anti-piracy), my question is as follow...
1) Do they always have 16 missiles loaded (or even missiles loaded) or are they loaded only during hostilities. I would presume that their 76mm gun is more than enough for pirates etc
2) Do they only have an anti-ship role or do they also have an land-attack weapon.

google chacha did not yield any answers... much appreciated.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 31 Dec 2013 14:29

Shrinivasan wrote:A Noob Pooch?
I have seen multiple picture of Kora Class Corvette with it Four Quad Launchers of 3M-24 anti-ship missiles on patrol (including anti-piracy), my question is as follow...
1) Do they always have 16 missiles loaded (or even missiles loaded) or are they loaded only during hostilities. I would presume that their 76mm gun is more than enough for pirates etc
2) Do they only have an anti-ship role or do they also have an land-attack weapon.

google chacha did not yield any answers... much appreciated.


A naval ship always leaves port fully armed.

That is the normal practice - though I guess exceptions may be made.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby pragnya » 31 Dec 2013 17:11

lots of info on sonars, torpedos, IRSS, mines and naval kaveri. interview with Dr V Bhujanga Rao (VBR), Director General, Naval Systems and Materials, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

some formatting error in the link is rectified here for clarity.

................

Image

IS: When will the ship-borne sonar new generation HUMSA get inducted into the Indian Navy and how will it be better than the one already with the Navy?

VBR: Sea acceptance trials of ship-borne HUMSA NG (Hull Mounted Sonar Array Next Gen) have been successfully completed in Indian naval ships). HUMSA NG is a technology upgrade of HUMSA Sonar earlier fitted on Indian Naval Ships, with lower frequency transducers and state-of-the-art electronics power PC processors and SHARC signal processing boards.

IS: DRDO has developed and installed a two-stage mounting system for ship-board HP air compressor. Could you please elaborate on its utility and which ships of the navy have these been installed in?

VBR: Yes. NSTL has developed two stage mounting system for ship-board HP air compressor. A two stage mounting system is employed where there is demand for high structure borne noise attenuation. The main objective of two stage mounting system is to reduce vibration levels from machinery to foundation, and thereby to reduce radiated noise levels from ship hull.

IS: What is the status of the submarine-sonar, project USHUS How will it be different and better than the existing sonar in the various submarines?

VBR: NPOL (Naval Physical & Oceanographic Laboratory), Kochi has designed and developed integrated submarine sonar system, USHUS. This sonar has been fitted on number of submarines.

IS: Could you expand on the USP of the Sonar MIHIR and has it got cleared for installation onboard the Advanced Light Helicopter?

VBR: MIHIR, the helicopter sonar system, comprises of dunking sonar and four-channel sonobuoy processor. This system consists of sonar dome housing, acoustic sensor, winch and handling system, electro-mechanical cable, signal conditioner and processor, sonar display and VHF receiver and antenna. This system has not been installed on Advanced Light Helicopter. This was only a technology demonstration exercise.

IS: DRDO has designed and developed an Infrared Suppression System (IRSS) for diesel engines. How will it be helpful in combat? Will they get fitted in all brands of diesel engines or are they specific in use?

VBR: Naval platforms Infrared (IR) signature levels depend on uptake surface temperature and exhaust plume temperature. To minimise the IR signature levels, NSTL (Naval Scientific Technological Laboratory), Visakhapatnam has designed and developed multi-ring eductor type Infrared Suppression System (IRSS) for both diesel and gas turbines. The system has been inducted on new construction frigates and corvettes. IR signature are susceptible to IR seeker missiles, therefore by reducing the IR signature, detection by IR Seeker can be avoided.

IS: How many helicopter fire control systems (HFCS) for the naval ALH have been handed over to HAL?

VBR: NSTL has designed and developed ‘Helicopter Fire Control System (HFCS) for the naval ALH. Three systems have been delivered to HAL. It is prudent to mention here that DRDO is only a design agency and production is to be done by the production agency. NSTL has transferred ToT to M/s BE, Bangalore. Further orders for HFCS can be placed by HAL on BE.

IS: Will the guidance wire spools for wire-guided torpedoes increase the stealth capability of ships and submarines?

VBR: Guidance wire spools for wire guided torpedo are meant for communication between mother ship/submarine and the torpedo. Based on the information of the target location, operator on the mother ship manoeuvres the torpedo to the target. Guidance wire spools for wire guided torpedoes do not increase the stealth capability of ships and submarines.

IS: What will be the use of the DRDO designed new stanchions made with radar transparent materials and which ships will they be installed on?

VBR: DRDO designed new stanchions made with radar transparent materials will reduce the radar cross section (RCS) signature of the ship.

IS: Has the new propeller shaft designed by DRDO been taken up by the navy? What was the need to reinvent the wheel as the Navy has no complaints with the existing propeller shafts?

VBR: NSTL is developing composite propeller shaft for ships. Conventional propeller shaft are made of ferrous material. This shaft is corrosive in nature and also gives extra low frequency emissions (ELFE). This ELFE signature is source of detection by ELFE sensors. This is not a case for reinventing the wheel, but bringing in new technology to advantage.

IS: Has the DRDO developed 250 KW secondary battery for heavyweight torpedo propulsion? Was this done on the request of the Navy and were the existing batteries not adequate for the task?

VBR: DRDO has developed 250 KWs Silver Oxide Zinc (AgOZn), both primary and secondary batteries for propulsion of heavy weight torpedo Varunastra, under development at NSTL. This is not done on the request of the Navy, but it is a project requirement. This battery development would enable the torpedo propulsion with more than 40 knots.

IS: Has the demand for the under-water mines developed by NSTL been consistent over the years?

VBR: NSTL has designed and developed a variety of underwater mines such as processor based ground mine, processor based exercise mine and processor based moored mine. These mines have been inducted by Indian Navy. NSTL is now developing multi-influence ground mine and advanced light weight mine. These mines are in various stages of trials. On successful trial evaluation by the navy, these would be inducted by the navy.

IS: What is the status of the marine version of Kaveri engine?

VBR: The Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine Engine, a derivative of aero engine was designed, developed and tested up to 12 MW max shaft power output towards the requirements of gas turbine propulsion for Indian Naval ships as an initial prototype concept demonstrator. Current studies are focused on the viability of developing fully indigenous aero derivative gas turbine engine and concurrently adopting for longer life requirements of 20,000 hours time between overhaul/40000 hours total endurance life requirements for naval application.

IS: What are the plans for enhanced research for futuristic technologies for the navy by DRDO?

VBR: The DRDO would be working in the areas of ‘Unconventional Hull Forms’ like Trimaran, Pentamaran etc; Propulsion using pump jet systems; State-of-the-art torpedoes and decoys; HTS motors and; 4G Submarine Sonar systems.

© India Strategic

Indian Navy's most powerful ships rely on DRDO technology

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 31 Dec 2013 17:51

faceted stealth housings for all future weapon systems like that decoy launcher ought to be a day1 design decision in this day rather than a afterthought.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Jan 2014 13:14

Acharya wrote:The Indian Ocean and the Future of American Power Robert Kaplan

from 28 min


Around 52 min and then about India-US around 53:45.

BUT, that is from 2010. It has changed somewhat since.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Jan 2014 18:35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x76pmMsyPbY

here is a video from 2010 of a TSPN sinkex.
- first a agosta90B fires a SM39 exocet...one splash it flies out of water and another as the gas cartridge drops off asap
- then a P3 fires a harpoon at the same ship.

the harpoon impact is not shown live, but the exocet has a devastating hit on the stern area.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby andy B » 03 Jan 2014 20:26

Singha wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x76pmMsyPbY

here is a video from 2010 of a TSPN sinkex.
- first a agosta90B fires a SM39 exocet...one splash it flies out of water and another as the gas cartridge drops off asap
- then a P3 fires a harpoon at the same ship.

the harpoon impact is not shown live, but the exocet has a devastating hit on the stern area.


GD me thinks its a TSPN Atlantique probably launching another exocet.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Jan 2014 23:23


asbchakri
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby asbchakri » 04 Jan 2014 02:48

So does anyone know the status of the Kolkata Class and Kamorta class ship. Last i heard they are in their Sea trails.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 06 Jan 2014 14:42


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_20453 » 06 Jan 2014 15:51

Singha wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x76pmMsyPbY

here is a video from 2010 of a TSPN sinkex.
- first a agosta90B fires a SM39 exocet...one splash it flies out of water and another as the gas cartridge drops off asap
- then a P3 fires a harpoon at the same ship.

the harpoon impact is not shown live, but the exocet has a devastating hit on the stern area.


Indeed, I think INS Viraat and former Vikrant would make an excellent targets post decommissioning, I would love to see both being sunk by Brahmos, the sheer speed and warhead should oblitarate them, I think they would sink in a matter of minutes, my bet it would sink under 5 mins.

1 Brahmos should be launched by a ship from 300km and 1 from Su-30mki. They should film the thing in full HD and this would create some heavy dhoti shivering.

It is high time we really see the devastating impact of the Brahmos a Carrier. We have one carrier 1 which seems to have no future rotting away and in a couple of years another.


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