Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

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Aditya G
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 30 Jan 2014 23:13

vic wrote:I think light crafts of coast guard and navy should be mounted with Helina missile


FWIW the coast guards operates 84 mm recoil less rifles off its ships. I have a picture somewhere.

Good looking ships btw

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 31 Jan 2014 09:15

Is it legally allowed for private boats (fishing, yatch etc.) to have a radar or sonar?

I was thinking as so many accidents happening with boats banging in naval ships, maybe DRDO can develop a small radar/sonar package (sold at subsidesed rate) just enough to locate ship from some distance; so the boatmen can manuever beforehand to avoid.

Also these can be connected to some coast guard station to do some scanning work for coast guard while the boat is moving.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 31 Jan 2014 09:32

^^^^^

Do not know elsewhere, but perfectly legal in the US. From one of the web sites:

With all of the advances made in small boat radars, it has gradually become a "mandatory" option when outfitting a new boat. Affordable prices and user-friendly systems have also caused owners looking to re-outfit their "experienced" hulls to consider adding radar to their electronics arsenal. The biggest challenge facing many first-time radar users is to select the appropriate unit for their particular application from a long list of options that includes CRT or LCD screens, monochrome or color format, supported by either an enclosed radome or open array antenna

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 31 Jan 2014 10:01

Dhananjay wrote:Is it legally allowed for private boats (fishing, yatch etc.) to have a radar or sonar?

I was thinking as so many accidents happening with boats banging in naval ships, maybe DRDO can develop a small radar/sonar package (sold at subsidesed rate) just enough to locate ship from some distance; so the boatmen can manuever beforehand to avoid.

Also these can be connected to some coast guard station to do some scanning work for coast guard while the boat is moving.


Yes.

AIS systems also exist but that can be no substitute for watch keeping and handling on Navy ships - they are better resourced and trained so unless the other guys made some egregious violation of the maritime rules of the road, the buck stops with the Navy.

By all accounts, the Admirals are finally enforcing some long-needed accountability.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 31 Jan 2014 10:43

Gentlemen, I am compiling an IN orbat with surface, sub surface and aviation SQs, any help appreciated.. you may drop me an email @ shrinivasanm AT gmail DOT KAAM or PM me.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_25400 » 31 Jan 2014 12:24

Sagar G wrote: [re p-8A bloomberg report]

So non performing foreign gear doesn't equal to India having to pay for it !!!! Wow ground breaking insights here.




"DOTE report: The P-8A Increment1 system is operationally suitable."
http://www.reddit.com/r/CredibleDefense ... n_the_p8a/

The comments on lack of nuance, technical/scientific illiteracy and innumeracy and sensationalism apply even more so to bharat rakshak forums. All new development carries a risk, and a reward. Otherwise, we'd still be paying for mature sticks and stones. Calculation and risk management is the name of the game. P-8I uses the same airframe as commercial B-737 widely used, including in India, and can piggyback much common avionics from the largest/most mature defense industry on earth driven by a government who are putting substantial money into it. Sure there is additional risk from the stuff we procure and add on or replace and from integration, but that's a pretty good bet. The bets may be off, if take our eye of the ball either contractually or from management of induction, but we don't need to assume the worst automatically and lose our context when an outdated report with several yellow flags is posted.

The comments on reddit and from viv say it all ...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vic » 31 Jan 2014 13:48

Aditya G wrote:
vic wrote:I think light crafts of coast guard and navy should be mounted with Helina missile


FWIW the coast guards operates 84 mm recoil less rifles off its ships. I have a picture somewhere.

Good looking ships btw


Heavy Machine guns, AGLs and Even Carl Gastaffs cannot match what a couple of Helina can do!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Roperia » 31 Jan 2014 14:14

barath_s wrote:The comments on lack of nuance, technical/scientific illiteracy and innumeracy and sensationalism apply even more so to bharat rakshak forums. <snip>


Sorry to go OT! I respectfully disagree sir! May be some members but if you separate the wheat from the chaff, BRF is the exact opposite of what you suggested above.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Brando » 31 Jan 2014 19:38



Built by Craftway Engineers, Mumbai - which is owned by SHM Shipcare run by Saifuddin H. Hajee.

These "Immediate Support Vessels" were built using DIAB's core composite materials. (DIAB is a Scandinavian composites manufacturer and consultant).

In reality despite this boat being "made" in India, its mostly "phoren" from materials to engineering.

EDIT: SHM Shipcare is Indian and does not belong to the South African SHM group. Sorry for the misinformation.
Last edited by Brando on 31 Jan 2014 22:48, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srai » 31 Jan 2014 19:52

^^^

More appropriate phrase would be "Assembled in India".

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Bob V » 31 Jan 2014 20:03

Built by Craftway Engineers, Mumbai - which is owned by South African Conglomerate SHM Group run by one Sayed H Mia . (http://www.shmgroup.co.za/home/directors/)

These "Immediate Support Vessels" were built using DIAB's core composite materials. (DIAB is a Scandinavian composites manufacturer and consultant).

In reality despite this boat being "made" in India, its mostly "phoren" from materials to engineering.


Is it so ? I thought SHM Shipcare was an indigenous setup.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2014 20:58

Just thought of posting these googled images:
Image
Image
Image

so, the only unreal aspect is 30knots speed and wind dynamics?

q: why did not they have the carrier platform as raised platform (say 3 ft/or the height of lift that could lead to the actual runway) to be more realisitic, especially useful for landing?
nice to have : would have been some water body all around the platform to say atleast 5 feet in breadth.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Indranil » 31 Jan 2014 21:42

SaiK wrote:q: why did not they have the carrier platform as raised platform (say 3 ft/or the height of lift that could lead to the actual runway) to be more realisitic, especially useful for landing?
nice to have : would have been some water body all around the platform to say atleast 5 feet in breadth.

It is for safe training and testing. If you havn't got it right, you would not pass. but you won't be killed.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 31 Jan 2014 22:14

I understand.. but is the facility created with near real conditions to validate success? so, IOW, what is the success criteria?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Indranil » 01 Feb 2014 00:13

I don't understand your question properly.

1. Simplistic and broad success criteria is take off, land and move within aircraft carrier dimensions. There is tolerance for error, but going there means you would have fallen off the carrier and hence failed.
2. Suppose the plane should take off and land at relative speeds of v1 and v2 respectively wrt to the carrier. To simulate headwind of x, allow the plane slightly higher roll during takeoff so that it leaves the stationary ski jump at v1+x speed. Allow approach to landing at v2+x speed.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 Feb 2014 01:02



I wish they had put the RWS (remote weapons station) on this. Saving costs is all very well, but having a manned, unstabilized weapon is not going to do wonders for accuracy or even operation under bad weather. Plus the crew man is exposed to return fire.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Indranil » 01 Feb 2014 01:13

Karan M wrote:I wish they had put the RWS (remote weapons station) on this. Saving costs is all very well, but having a manned, unstabilized weapon is not going to do wonders for accuracy or even operation under bad weather. Plus the crew man is exposed to return fire.

Exactly, my thought.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shalav » 01 Feb 2014 04:10

SaiK wrote:I understand.. but is the facility created with near real conditions to validate success? so, IOW, what is the success criteria?


You don't take on the nurburgring when learning to drive. The success criterion is practice t/o and landings (traps) on as close to real as possible. If you can do that you can graduate to the other harder courses.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 01 Feb 2014 04:21

thanks on the "as close to real as possible" - that makes real sense.

indranil, so the +x speed (if not negligible) is what might cause hard landings. no?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 01 Feb 2014 10:09

Does any of our Naval platforms have a RWS? I haven't seen one till date... May be in the next iteration they would get incorporated... methinks these are all quickly inducted keeping something in Mind.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 01 Feb 2014 10:22

SaiK wrote:I understand.. but is the facility created with near real conditions to validate success? so, IOW, what is the success criteria?


Hmmm...I think you may be barking up the wrong tree on this one if the fundamental assumption in your thinking is that the SBTF is a simulator for a carrier landing. If not, I apologise!

What is happening right now is FCLP - Field Carrier Landing Practise, to use an Americanism. It is step one in creating a carrier qualified aviator, and part of a larger curriculum. A ski-jump has been added to make it more realistic but that's about it.

Next, will be Day CQ- carrier qualification on the carrier itself, and then "for some" (unless we are switching to the US standard), Night CQ. Each with escalating levels of difficulty - it's the good old "crawl, walk, run" principle.

When entire 6-8 plane sections start to do this on the carrier it gets even more interesting, as the guy in front waving-off/boltering can create interesting situations for the entire group - which they must all learn and cope up with.

So, the SBTF is capturing only a very tiny aspect of taking off and landing procedures, in the big picture.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Feb 2014 11:58

I do not think we will have luxury of only qualifying a few pilots for night ops. as it is our air wing is very small. and they had two years to practice on land with Mig29K.

all will have to be qualified.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 01 Feb 2014 17:49

Some Excerpts of DCNS Chief in interview to FORCE in connection with Scorpene Program
http://www.forceindia.net/Interview_Igor_Vilnit.aspx

The Scorpene programme has been marred by a lot of controversies and criticism because of delays and price rise. From DCNS’ perspective, what have been the lessons learnt? In your experience now with the Indian shipyards, both in the public and the private sector, what do you think are their strengths and limitations?

The reasons for the initial teething problems of the P-75 project, though normal, have been overcome and the P-75 submarines are now being constructed as per schedule.

The reasons for the initial delays are threefold: First, MDL had stopped manufacturing submarines for over a decade. Any shipyard confronted with such inactivity in this complex industrial field would lose its expertise and skilled workforce. The second reason is that no on job training at the OEM’s facilities was possible since all six submarines are being built in India. Usually, the first one or two first submarines for such large programmes are made in the OEM’s facilities to allow absorption of the building process through OJT for the customer shipyard. The third reason has been some material package procurement difficulties. Some small size European suppliers of specific material were not used to MDL’s complex and comprehensive procurement policies and were not able to respond to some RFPs.

DCNS has been abiding strictly to all the terms and conditions of the contract since the beginning. No request for any increase in contracted prices has been done.

We believe private public partnerships (PPP) could be an efficient way to synergise the comparatives advantages of the public and private shipyards by combining the skills and experience of the public sector with the more flexible procurement and management policies of the private sector.

There is an increased focus on indigenisation in the Indian defence manufacturing. How do you think you can partner in this?

DCNS is strongly committed to the indigenisation process under the P75 programme. In fact, we can proudly state that DCNS is one of the very few foreign companies to have invested and achieved high indigenisation levels and at no additional cost to the Indian Navy/ministry of defence, despite the fact that indigenisation for a small quantity (four) has an additional cost which could reach 40 per cent compared to the original price of the European OEM.

Despite having no contractual obligation to reach any specific level of local content, DCNS has strived to develop a sound base of qualified Indian companies to indigenise as much as possible the equipment forming an integral part of the submarine. Today, more than 50 per cent of the Mazagon Procured Materials (MPM) originally manufactured and/ or supplied by DCNS have been successfully subcontracted by DCNS India to Indian industries. Factory Acceptance Tests (FATs) have already been successfully conducted in the facilities of these Indian vendors in the presence of the Indian Navy and MDL and delivered to MDL for integration in P-75 submarines.

As far as the pressure hulls are concerned, MDL has now successfully absorbed the transfer of technologies allowing them to manufacture these high-tech and vital hulls as fast as we can do it in our facilities in France with the same level of quality.

DCNS is willing to extend its participation in on-going and future projects for the modernisation programme of the Indian Navy and help the Indian government to achieve its goal of maximum indigenisation in defence manufacturing. We view our relationship with India as a strategic industrial partnership and hence a permanent presence is vital.

Coming back to the Scorpene programme, what kind of life-cycle support and training will you be providing to the Indian Navy?

Today, we have proactive approaches with end-users and the procurement agencies to further enhance the performance of our in-service support. As systems are complex and budgets constrained, we move towards shared gains initiatives to deeper optimise the quality of the support system and the cost of ownership. On an industrial point of view, we jointly look at ways to facilitate access and logistics to improve productivity. We have designed and set up advance bases so that skills and tools are directly available besides the ships. We also prepare standardised spares sets based on the input from the scheduled works. On a contracting point of view, we look at risk-sharing to lower the cost of the in-service support.



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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arun » 02 Feb 2014 19:03

Commissioning of the long delayed Project 15 Alpha destroyers looks imminent 8) .

Tender for saluting dais, rostrum and other furniture related paraphernalia required for commissioning ceremony was to be delivered by Jan 31st with a three week contingency time from order date built in :

MDL Tender

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Feb 2014 19:43

but with no LRSAM they would serve as training vessels.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Feb 2014 19:46

Strange considering the Navy made clear that they wont commission any ships without having full weapons and sensors tested and deployed , this happened after P-16A/Trishul fiasco

Wonder if Barak-8 got tested on P-15A

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby BrijeshB » 02 Feb 2014 21:38

India to procure NASA aircraft for cyclone prediction
Published February 2, 2014
SOURCE: PTI

Hit by five cyclones on its eastern coast last year, India is planning to procure a NASA aircraft equipped with a lab to study wind patterns at high altitude for better prediction of such calamities.

“We are procuring McDonnell Douglas DC-8 aircraft from NASA and we should hopefully get it by 2015-2016. This aircraft has a laboratory within itself and will be helpful in studying wind patterns,” Ministry of Earth Science (MoES) Secretary Shailesh Nayak told PTI.

The government has also tied up with University of Massachusetts, US for research on weather patterns in the country especially in the Bay of Bengal, he said.

“The aircraft will help in gathering data at high altitudes, especially the wind patterns, and to conduct experiments in the aircraft itself,” a scientist at MoES said.

This assumes significance as several cyclones, including the powerful Phailin that left a trail of destruction, had hit the country’s eastern coast last year.

Indian Meteorological Department chief Laxman Singh Rathore had last month said five cyclones including Phailin and Helen had originated in the Bay of Bengal.

A senior scientist from the MoES said that wind is a major factor in determining the atmosphere and despite predictions of cyclones, it was necessary to study wind patterns in depth.

We know why cyclones take place and the formation process, but it was also important to understand why so many cyclones were hitting the eastern coast” the scientist said.

NASA uses the DC-8 aircraft as a flying science laboratory. The platform aircraft, based at NASA’s Dryden Flight Research Center in California, collects data for several experiments in support of scientific projects.

Data gathered by the aircraft and by remote sensing have been used for studies in archaeology, ecology, geography, hydrology, meteorology, oceanography, volcanology, atmospheric chemistry, cryospheric science, soil science and biology.


Cyclones too interested in our Eastern Coast.. :roll:

Anybody noticed this article sometimes back...
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/3229.asp
Last edited by BrijeshB on 03 Feb 2014 00:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 02 Feb 2014 23:04

Is it time for us to have a Military Naval Safety thread?

Another Navy warship runs aground, damaged

An amphibious assault warship suffered damage after it ran aground off the Vishakhapatnam coast last week, bringing the Indian Navy’s worrying safety record under further scrutiny.

The latest mishap involving INS Airavat, a platform capable of transporting men and equipment to launch a beach assault, takes the Navy’s warship accident tally to eight since the INS Sindhurakshak blew up and sank at a Mumbai harbour last August, killing all 18 men onboard.

The news comes in on a day HT reported that the Navy’s failure to keep its main harbour channel navigable in Mumbai may have risked operations and also led to a few vessels running aground.

An unreasonable delay in awarding a crucial dredging contract to keep the approach to the Mumbai naval base clear has raised serious concerns about safe passage of boats in the shallow waters.

The INS Airavat is the third warship to hit the seabed in less than a month. Vessels can run aground if the seabed is not excavated periodically, though mostly such mishaps happen due to navigational errors, navy sources said.

As reported first by HT on January 26, the captains of two frontline warships were stripped of their positions, with the navy blaming them for disturbing lapses that led to accidents under their command. One of those warships, INS Betwa, had run aground on January 4.


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Leo.Davidson » 02 Feb 2014 23:10

Incompetence is our greatest enemy.
Nikhil T wrote:Is it time for us to have a Military Naval Safety thread?

Another Navy warship runs aground, damaged

An amphibious assault warship suffered damage after it ran aground off the Vishakhapatnam coast last week, bringing the Indian Navy’s worrying safety record under further scrutiny.

The latest mishap involving INS Airavat, a platform capable of transporting men and equipment to launch a beach assault, takes the Navy’s warship accident tally to eight since the INS Sindhurakshak blew up and sank at a Mumbai harbour last August, killing all 18 men onboard.

The news comes in on a day HT reported that the Navy’s failure to keep its main harbour channel navigable in Mumbai may have risked operations and also led to a few vessels running aground.

An unreasonable delay in awarding a crucial dredging contract to keep the approach to the Mumbai naval base clear has raised serious concerns about safe passage of boats in the shallow waters.

The INS Airavat is the third warship to hit the seabed in less than a month. Vessels can run aground if the seabed is not excavated periodically, though mostly such mishaps happen due to navigational errors, navy sources said.

As reported first by HT on January 26, the captains of two frontline warships were stripped of their positions, with the navy blaming them for disturbing lapses that led to accidents under their command. One of those warships, INS Betwa, had run aground on January 4.


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 03 Feb 2014 02:43

It seems that there is increased naval activity. I am confident that this will lead to a better navy. Remember that only those that sit on their behinds don't have any accidents. The navy is moving and I have confidence in it that they will fix these issues. I do not think they are incompetent.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 03 Feb 2014 03:16

Vivek K wrote:It seems that there is increased naval activity. I am confident that this will lead to a better navy. Remember that only those that sit on their behinds don't have any accidents. The navy is moving and I have confidence in it that they will fix these issues. I do not think they are incompetent.


I don't think these incidents are because of greater number of operations. In any case, our operations haven't increased by the same factor as these accidents seem to indicate. Maybe tsarkar can throw light on how many of these are actual navigational/crew errors versus the dredging issue.

Some more details coming in from IndiaToday
In yet another setback for the Indian Navy, its amphibious ship INS Airavat suffered damages while returning back to the harbour on Thursday night. According to the sources, the incident occurred on account of the dredging work going on in the channel.
INS Airavat, built by the Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers in Kolkata, was returning to the harbour when its propellers hit the ground.

Although, the ship did not suffer any major damage but it is a serious issue for the Navy as the incident indicates towards a navigational error.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 03 Feb 2014 04:04

Austin wrote:Strange considering the Navy made clear that they wont commission any ships without having full weapons and sensors tested and deployed , this happened after P-16A/Trishul fiasco


What is more surprising is we don't have fall back plan (compare with PLAN which had 3 parallel development programs for naval defense systems) at the very least should have developed naval AAD that could be have been dual packed into existing Brahmos VLS launchers and naval Akash that could be fitted into existing single arm shtil launcher. Should have been quite straight forward to integrate that with MF-STAR.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rupak » 03 Feb 2014 04:13

The LR-SAM I understand has been qualified and that the Alpha's are already equipped for it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 03 Feb 2014 12:23

Another Torpedo-ed

Groundings, collisions, zipper failure - We are giving the USN a real run for its money these days.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_25400 » 03 Feb 2014 13:44

SaiK wrote: Very nice pictures of Indian land based mock aircraft carrier (Field Carrier Landing Practice) deleted.

so the only unreal ...


It's only the first step ... wind speeds, navigation, layout , etc will all differ. Finding and landing on a target that has traveled some distance from where you started, is bouncing and pitching, has obstacles, surrounded by sea, in the dark of night and often having to do it on operational schedule has been described as one of the more sphincter tightening experiences in flying. Bonus points for short on fuel, radio/light silence, dealing with other operational complications such as other aircraft taking off and bolters etc.

I have seen poorly informative articles that claim this test center is 3rd in the world and 1st in Asia. Can anyone specify what this center has ? (eg subsystem qualification/engine test equipment etc?/red flag tactical test range ) that is over and above the normal practice landing on aircraft carrier shaped piece of land.

I am skeptical about the claim; unless there are other qualifications such as ski jump equipment, (not many ski jump equipped navies now) or others etc. (Surely every naval air wing starts with something similar ?), red-flag like simulated warfare/command-control/AA/tactical range posts etc.

For pointers to my skepticism, I provide pics of Chinese "Land aircraft carriers"
0. (this pic from Wuhan is likely only a mock up - - speculation - for navigational purposes ? ) (granted this is raised top of a building and probably not fit for flight op simulation, no catapults etc....)

http://defensetech.org/2011/08/03/china ... -dry-land/
0a. https://www.google.com/maps/preview/pla ... b223?hl=en


1. Naval Aviation Training center in Huludao
http://defense-update.com/wp-content/up ... aining.jpg
1a. http://defense-update.com/20121201_j15_liaoning.html (scroll down)

2. Training center in Xi'an - referenced but not pictured.
http://www.heritage.org/research/report ... -the-fleet

3. Also of potential interest is this article on PLAAF (not PLAN) that hints at the red-flag like facilities involved and established in the test center)
http://www.informationdissemination.net ... ining.html

4. Also of interest - an article from US naval war college which speaks briefly on chinese naval aviation training
http://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment/647f ... teps--Alte

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sarkar » 03 Feb 2014 14:36

next-kargil-could-happen-in-the-andamans

"There is a real threat that poachers, smugglers, narcotics traffickers or terrorist groups could occupy some of the uninhabited islands and create a Kargil-like situation," Adm. Arun Prakash

Protecting mainland IN is protecting one land... Protecting Andaman is like protecting 572 lands.
Isn't this true that lot of islands are still unoccupied and may not be patrolled by security forces as well.

"Another threat arose during the 1965 war (with Pakistan), when (Indonesian president) Soekarno ordered his navy to occupy some of the southern islands as a show of solidarity with Pakistan. Fortunately the war ended before anything could happen,"


Never knew Indonesia had these bigger ambitions. A hidden desire.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby uddu » 03 Feb 2014 14:38

That will never happen again. If it happens Indonesia will become part of India as in the past.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23455 » 03 Feb 2014 16:10

sarkar wrote:
Never knew Indonesia had these bigger ambitions. A hidden desire.


In the 1980s the army and the navy had embarked on major amphib exercises off Andamans aimed at a) Developing contingencies for Sri Lanks b) Sending a warning to the Indonesians about any Falkands type misadventure.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby merlin » 03 Feb 2014 17:25

Rupak wrote:The LR-SAM I understand has been qualified and that the Alpha's are already equipped for it.


For it but not with it yet?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rupak » 03 Feb 2014 17:37

@Merlin,
I don't know if LR-SAMs are loaded, but all the hardware and software allowing "plug and play" is there already. This was not the case with the 16A when commissioned.


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