Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

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sum
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sum »

^^ Are these many losses of officers and sailors spread over so many incidents in a peacetime navy a normal occurrence? :-? :cry:
chetak
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chetak »

sum wrote:^^ Are these many losses of officers and sailors spread over so many incidents in a peacetime navy a normal occurrence? :-? :cry:

Bizarre set of tragic coincidences.

The IN seems to be going through a particularly bad patch.

or they under some tremendous pressure to show results??
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by negi »

^ IN is moving fastest in terms of building stuff inhouse so just like any other navy we will have our set of failures and issues, I think it is pointless to bring in MOD and entire IN into every such fatality . This is a new destroyer undergoing trails unless someone publishes entire report about court of enquiry I am not sure if one can say a lot on these things.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by vivek_ahuja »

negi wrote:^ IN is moving fastest in terms of building stuff inhouse so just like any other navy we will have our set of failures and issues, I think it is pointless to bring in MOD and entire IN into every such fatality . This is a new destroyer undergoing trails unless someone publishes entire report about court of enquiry I am not sure if one can say a lot on these things.
Damn it! I guess I am too late.

Can I not even chastise the Navy for poor safety standards leading to unnecessary loss of life? Or has "chalta-hai" set in already? :roll:
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by RKumar »

negi wrote:^ IN is moving fastest in terms of building stuff inhouse so just like any other navy we will have our set of failures and issues, I think it is pointless to bring in MOD and entire IN into every such fatality . This is a new destroyer undergoing trails unless someone publishes entire report about court of enquiry I am not sure if one can say a lot on these things.
+1

As more and more stuff will be inducted ... paid media will publish sensational news items with flashing red fonts. It is better to discover fault now then later that is the whole purpose of performing tests. Taking pot shots on local industry/DRDO/MoD/Navy and later blaming for doing nothing will not help nation or anyone. We can learn only from mistakes. Don´t forget navy is procuring maximum percentage locally, so vested interests are working against it. We need to support them at this stage.

I deeply regret the loss of life on board
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_28108 »

There is a difference between neglect and underfunding leading to cutting corners and a genuine accident.If it is the former what is wrong in the media acting as a watchdog ?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Will »

May the officers soul rest in peace. But lets not politicize and tar every incident with the same feather. This seems like a freak accident. The IN has high standards . The last thing that is needed is for the IN to be demoralized now.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Sid »

But if we leave out all the politics and finger pointing, there has to be some value given to human life. Loss of life must be totally unacceptable. No excuse should be admitted and heads must roll every time. If SOP are not being followed, heads must roll.

Media did bring IAF crashes in line. Media was on their tail until IAF did fixed something (example, they stopped flying older Mig 21 models for good). In late 90s and early 2000 situation was really bad in IAF, specially in terms on safety and maintenance.

Situation is bad in IN as well. One of my frnd is in Navy, what can I say more. In peace time things does cool down.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Sid »

And this "Human Error" spin by MOD is the same things which was applied by earlier ministers when IAF planes were going down due to their in incompetency and corruption.

Why don't we on BR do a simple 5 Why, as a think tank, to find root cause based on problem identified by baboons.

<sorry couldn't keep the politics out of discussion>
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_28108 »

The day questions are not being asked, laxity creeps in.The deaths of those who died must not be in vain. Answers are needed.If it is a failure of protocols they need to be set right.If it is failure of any other thing - that also needs to be set right.If it is a "Freakish accident" unfortunately accidents are not just accidental they have a cause too.If hypoxic fire safety equipment are being used in a test why were not breathing masks etc and other safety measures not used ? All these things need to be answered. I think it is more demoralizing forthe armed forces if a root cause analysis is not done and corrective measures are not taken.
One of the things that I am interested is in accidents that occur when using the heart lung machine (I often am asked to review such accidents from events from various places because of my specific interest in this topic) where a mistake can rapidly lead to a fatality and there as well as in the airline industry measures are taken to avoid such things.Surely in a testing drill all the more these SOP;s should be followed- Most accidents occur because of a chalta hai attitude at some level that needs to be fixed.That it is unacceptable be it from the raksha mantri to the sweeper needs to be taken care off.The chain is as strong as its weakest link. Biological systems have an inherent variability more than physical systems and yet the goal there needs to be a higher index of safety to prevent such issues .
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Just take a look back on the IN's shipbuilding over the last few decades.We built 6 Leanders (last 2 modified),3 "G" class,8 Khukri/Kora corvettes,around 6 OPVs,2 U-boats,3 Brahmaputra FFGs,3 Delhi DDGs,3 Shivaliks,LSTs.LCUs,and sundry patrol craft along with numerous refits of both carriers Vikrant and Viraat.I can't remember any major incident involving any of these warships wehn they were on their trials/under construction.Our major losses were the sinking of INS Andamans-due to the poor state of the vessel's hull,sent out like the Kilo sub when it shouldn't have,a fire that destroyed an Osa missile boat,and a few collisions of warships and subs.

These happen in any navy worldwide if you keep track of them.Canada's British O class subs have been notorious for their poor safety record due to design flaws and poor maintenance.The same with OZ's Collins class.Fires during repairs/refits in the dockyard are par for the course given the amount of flammable material around.technical problems of the kind aboard the ViKramaditya/Gorshkov with her boiler cladding and the Nerpa/Chakra's fire suppression eqpt. were design/eqpt. failures and rectified.Sometimes sensors and weapon systems fail for similar reasons.

However,as has been pointed out in the case of the IN's incidents,they are due to a combination of factors.First the use of subs and vessels long after their sell-by/scrap date.Why? Sheer bl**dy mindedness on the part of the MOD and its boss who have sat twiddling their thumbs,chewing pan,ignoring the requests and complaints from the forces year after year,for new vessels and subs,timely ordering of components and spares desperately required for older subs and ships,while pushing the envelope of operations both in the IOR and outside it.Long before these accidents occurred,we've been told of the laborious procurement policy of the MOD, a major factor delaying the delivery of warships and subs.The Scorpene fiasco just one example.We now know of the cannibalisation of sub batteries of Kilo subs.
Secondly,as has been pointed out by some analysts,a decline in seafaring capabilities of the IN,due to the lack of sea time and command opportunities has resulted in officers rising in rank without the required hands on experience,especially as newer technology is inducted .Standards have admittedly also dropped.Something had to give in both equipment and the human factor.

Add to that a heavy dose of the Indian culture of neglect of maintenance -to be found in any aspect of state run enterprises,whether it is Indian railways using condemned coaches,Air India using ancient aircraft,with crappy interiors,you see it in any govt. dept. that you visit,and forget about roads,bridges,power plants,etc.,etc.The list is endless,the attitude is the same. A lack of funds allotted for the same in time ensures breakdowns and tragedies.Unfortunately,the last bastion of standards,the armed forces here today seen in the IN's tragedies,is rapidly succumbing to the "chalta hai" virus cultured and nurtured in the swamp and cesspit of babudom.

PS:This also calls into account the standard of training,if procedures are not being followed.When we were debating the IAF's problems some time ago,there was a quote from a former senior IAF officer,who commented upon how stringent the Russians were with OEM eqpt.,spares, etc.HAL was allegedly accused by him of selling/exporting OEM spares abroad,and using grey market components for IAF aircraft.Quality control is paramount.There has to be absolute qualiity in the components acquired,especially as we raise the level of indigenisation.In the case of the subs,the batteries are desi,the sonars,too and the supplier of the fire-fighting eqpt. ,etc.,that is supposed to have failed requires a thorough inquiry .

PPS:Rajat Pandit writing in the TOI has echoed the same in his piece,"warship refits suffer lack of quality control" today.Another TOI report says that an admiral,with an eye on the top post has been leaking "alarming" news items demoralising and angering officers and sailors.Cdr.Kuntal wadhwa,Chief Engineer-Designate for the destroyer,was one of the finest young officers in the IN who insisted that the leaky valve of the fire suppression device was personally attended to by himself.More in the continuation post.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 627543.cms

Death on warship INS Kolkata leaves Navy officers angry
TNN | Mar 8, 2014,
NEW DELHI: Widespread anger is palpable among large sections of naval officers as yet another accident claimed the life of an outstanding officer, even as a dirty war has broken out among senior admirals with lobbies backing them to canvass for the post of new Navy chief.

Commander Kuntal Wadhwa, the chief engineer-designate of INS Kolkata, who was killed on Friday, was among his batch's finest officers. This MTech holder's selection to the commissioning team of country's latest destroyer spoke volumes about his capabilities. One of his batch-mates said, "Any sailor could have opened the valve, but Kuntal went to do it himself."

A retired officer, who has mentored Kuntal in his young days, said the officer was upholding the tradition of leading from the front and being personally responsible to ensure that systems such as those for fighting fire in a ship are personally inspected by officers themselves. "While carrying out a tradition he paid with his life," he said.

The story of young officers laying down their life leading from the front is also among the common themes running across most recent naval mishaps. Lt Commander Kapish Muwal and Lt Manoranjan Kumar also died heroically aboard INS Sindhuratna, their colleagues said. They pushed out the sailor who was on duty to keep watch on the battery pit, and were trying to find out the source of fire. Both paid with their lives.

As young officers hold up the highest traditions of military, many in service are also dismayed and appalled by the low standards to which their senior officers are plunging as they try to project their select candidates for next Navy chief's post.

The government is set to appoint the new Navy chief in place of Admiral DK Joshi who resigned on February 26. What is appalling to the officer cadre is the way the contenders and their supporters are going about projecting individual cases. "They are spending all their time in spreading stories about each other, and in projecting individual cases," one young officer said. "But they don't seem to have enough time to sit down and figure out what's wrong, and if there is indeed a systemic problem."

What has left many young officers agitated is the story in the naval circles that a senior admiral may have played an active role in creating a scare around even minor issues by consistently leaking out information and exaggerating them. This particular officer is among those eyeing the top job, and has long bitterly complained about how he has always been discriminated against by the top brass.

There are also stories about arms dealers and other unsavoury elements taking active interest in the appointment of the new Navy chief. Most of these stories do not have any credible evidence, but they definitely add to the resentment among the younger officers.
India's warship refits suffer lack of quality control
Rajat Pandit,TNN | Mar 8, 2014
NEW DELHI: India is building a powerful Navy for the future, with as many as 44 warships on order in domestic shipyards at a cost of over 2 lakh crore in a major boost to indigenisation, but huge time and cost overruns have for long plagued the endeavour.

Now, the lack of "requisite quality control", "proper planning" and "effective oversight" is also fast coming into focus in the complex arena of warship construction and refits. On Friday, Commander Kuntal Wadwa was killed after the valves of the carbon dioxide discharging system "malfunctioned" during trials on the new guided-missile destroyer INS Kolkata, which was to be handed over to the Navy in end-April. Both Mazagon Docks (MDL) and Navy will conduct separate probes into the accident.

This comes days after two other officers, Lieutenant Commanders Kapish Singh Munwal and Manoranjan Kumar, were killed after inhaling toxic gases due to "a cable fire" on board INS Sindhuratna on February 26, just two months after the 26-year-old submarine underwent an extensive seven-month refit. The mishap prompted Admiral D K Joshi to resign as the Navy chief within hours.

"The levels of quality control and efficiency are tardy in our defence shipyards and naval dockyards, much like other defence PSUs. Lack of proper infrastructure like paltry dry-docking facilities, timely availability of steel and supply of spares also remain huge problems," admitted a senior official.

The Navy currently operates 145 warships, which includes 50 "major combatants'' and 14 submarines, apart from aircraft, helicopters and spy drones, but many of them will retire in the coming years. Consequently, the force has charted out long-term plans for induction of four to five new warships every year.

But the modernisation of the four defence shipyards - MDL (Mumbai), Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (Kolkata), Goa Shipyard (GSL) and Hindustan Shipyard (Vizag) - has lagged far behind what is actually required.

Consider this: There has been a cost escalation of over 225% in the ongoing Project-15A at MDL to build the three Kolkata-class destroyers. The project was first sanctioned in June 2001, with INS Kolkata slated for delivery in 2008. The cost escalation for construction of four anti-submarine warfare corvettes at GRSE, in turn, stands at 157%.

MDL is the largest among the four shipyards, with an order book of around Rs 1,00,000 crore, including the Rs 23,562 crore project for six Scorpene submarines and the Rs 41,007 crore one for seven guided-missile destroyers. But the overall capacity of the four shipyards is limited, forcing the government to explore private shipyards as well as public-private partnerships to meet timelines for ship-building.

Warships on order

1 Indigenous aircraft carrier INS Vikrant—Cochin Shipyard

3 Kolkata-class destroyers (Project-15A) — Mazagon Docks (MDL)

4 Guided-missile stealth destroyers (Project-15B) — MDL

6 Scorpene submarines (Project-75) — MDL

7 Stealth guided-missile frigates (Project-17A) — 4 at MDL, 3 at Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE)

4 Anti-submarine warfare corvettes (Project 28)—GRSE

8 Landing Craft Utility — GRSE

5 Offshore patrol vessels — Pipavav Shipyard

2 Cadet training ships — Alcock Ashdown Shipyard

3 Double-hulled catamarans — ABG Shipyard

1 Naval offshore patrol vessel — Goa Shipyard

Peculiar problems were dogging warship INS Kolkata

V Narayan,TNN | Mar 8, 2014
MUMBAI: The gas leak on board the Kolkata Class missile destroyer occurred during testing for "peculiar problems" the warship was facing — all major components are functioning well separately, but start misbehaving when put in tandem — sources said. This accident, alongside the INS Sindhuratna fire last week and the INS Sindhurakshak blasts in 2013, happened during trial runs.

The commissioning of the ship, scheduled this year, may now be delayed.

"The warship's engine, the gear box and the shaft, all are doing well separately but the ship starts making a noise when all these function simultaneously. A thorough check of the entire machinery to correct the technical snag was on when the incident occurred," the source added.

The carbon dioxide leak killed Commander Kuntal Wadhwa, 42, who was inspecting the warship's engine room on Friday afternoon. An engineering officer, Wadhwa had topped in his batch. He is survived by his wife, a 12-year-old son and eight-year-old daughter. He served the Indian Navy for more than over 18 years. His parents reside in New Delhi.

"The officer's body was taken to JJ Hospital for autopsy and forensic tests before it is handed over to the family members who will arrive from New Delhi," said an official.

Two MDL personnel present near the warship were also taken to hospital for check-up after they complained of suffocation. They were discharged after being provided with medical assistance.

Yard-701 belongs to a class of stealth guided-missile destroyers constructed for Indian Navy. The class comprises three ships—Kolkata, Kochi and Chennai—all of which are being built by MDL. The most modern destroyer in the country, it is to be commissioned in a few weeks. It is currently at MbPT, undergoing trials.

Representatives from Mazgaon Dock Ltd (MDL) will also be associated with the inquiry set up by the Navy. The department of defence production, ministry of defence, has also asked for a detailed report from MDL. An MDL spokesperson said, "The incident would not affect the warship's commissioning scheduled in the next few weeks. There is no physical damage onboard. There was a gas leak. The ship will be commissioned on time."

At the time of the incident, the ship was at MbPT undergoing machinery trials. "The officer who died was the designated officer of the yet-to-be commissioned warship. He was present during trials along with more than 40 Indian Navy personnel when the incident occurred," the spokesperson said.

Due to delays in their construction and a problem found during sea trials, the initial commissioning date of the first ship of the class was pushed back from 2010 to 2014.

The tragedy has taken place 10 days after fire broke out onboard submarine INS Sindhuratna on February 26 morning, killing two officers—Lieutenant Commander Kapish Muwal and Lieutenant Manoranjan Kumar—and injuring several due to suffocation.

On August 14 last year, three officers killed and 15 crews injured in submarine INS Sindhurakshak. In all the three incidents, the warships malfunctioned during trial runs.
Chidambaram's advice echoes in Navy
TNN | Mar 8, 2014,
NEW DELHI: While the defence ministry may not be very amused by P Chidambaram's advice that it must spend money wisely, many among military officers agree with the finance minister's advice.

The finance minister said: "How is that money (defence budget) spent? If Rs 2.25 lakh crore is allotted to defence, how is it spent? Should it be spent on maintenance, acquiring new equipment, training, raising a new battalion — these are questions which are decided by very senior officers of the Army, Navy and the Air Force."

Commenting on the recent submarine accident, Chidambaram said: "I sincerely hope that the defence forces will learn a lesson and make sure that the money allocated to them is spent more wisely and more efficiently on essential matters." He went on to say that "at some point of time the maintenance of the submarine appears to have been neglected. Only an inquiry will prove the fact, from what reports I have read (it) appears to be neglected. There seems to be some problem with the battery that led to the fire, and two precious lives were lost".

The MOD did not offer any direct comment to Chidambaram, but many military officers agreed with the suggestions.

"I don't really know what is going wrong. But what I can say for sure is that most of the problem is within us. We are also playing our own games (within the military)," said a naval officer who has dealt with submarine acquisitions. He said the navy, and the MOD, have not shown enough perspective to create submarine building, maintenance and overhaul capabilities. "From the HDW days (of the 1980s) when we started assembling submarines we have not moved forward much. We are almost where we started," he said. The result is expensive refits, overpriced foreign items and deep-rooted corruption. "The story is not very different in the case of fighters, tanks or any other major platform," he said.

A senior MOD official said what Chidamabaram said in public is what defence minister AK Antony has been repeatedly telling the forces both in public and private. "The minister has been saying this, and pushing to be more financially prudent," he said. That is why Antony appointed independent financial comptrollers in all major departments including service headquarters, and has taken action whenever any wrongdoing was detected. Almost 600 complaints have been sent for vigilance inquiries by Antony and over 100 of them to CBI, he pointed out. Many of the other steps taken by Antony have also been in many senses a response to concerns about possible irresponsible spending, he pointed out.

However, a senior navy officer pointed out that Antony has failed to push the services into embracing indigenisation in a big way, and to clean up the entire place. "The arms dealers are still very busy, India continues to be the biggest importer in the world, and we continue to spend imprudently," he said.


One fallout of the IN's recent accidents and tragedies is the effect it is going to have on patriotic youngsters who want to join the armed forces especially the IN.

The IN already is short of officers as it is entering an ambitious period of modernisation and expansion.If one looks at the background of the officers killed in the recent tragedies,they were absolutely "top drawer".St.Stephen's,etc. But they joined at a time when the IN was held in the highest esteem because of the chiefs and senior officers who were in charge decades ago.The IN always had officers and sailors of exceptional quality and capability.The achievements of '71 were a landmark for any world navy,achieving so much with so little.Adm. of the Fleet Gorshkov ,head of the Soviet Navy reportedly danced a jig in front of his top brass shocking them,when he heard of the IN's raid on Karachi using the Soviet supplied harbour defence Osa class missile boats.Old timers will know how in the late '70s and '80s,just one Commodore was the NOIC in charge of the entire Bombay naval base.Today you have a long list of commodores,admirals of the Rear and Vice doing what just one officer was capable of a couple of decades ago.One sincerely hopes that these tragedies brings about a massive upheaval in the MOD about its treatment of the IN and introspection within the IN itself to restore morale and its high standards.
Last edited by Philip on 08 Mar 2014 07:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Karan M »

human error...coverup in full flow...
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

chetak wrote:Bizarre set of tragic coincidences. The IN seems to be going through a particularly bad patch. or they under some tremendous pressure to show results??
^^ Flag Officers not leading from the front. Unrealistic expectations set by leaders that would make them look good while not backing up their men. Good leaders also stand up for and by their men.

You would know how work is done overtime at ND and MDL. Or how procurment at ND & MDL works. Its BEML scam all over. PSU buying stuff via agents who're related to babudom without negotiating and passing it off as indigenous.

INS Kolkata has the same Ukrainian engines, transmission & shafting as the Delhi class.

Biggest lacunae is that being ADC of a senior officer gives greater weightage for promotions than sea time.

We need Admirals who can clean up. I remember Adm Vinod Pasricha heading ENC at Vizag who came for a movie with his wife on his old Lambretta. There, he found and thereafter made a list of all those who came on official vehicles. Summoned all of them next morning for a dressing down.

His riding on a scooter for personal travel was such a familiar sight at Vizag.

We sorely need such Admirals who set personal examples.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

As i have said once the itvity industry culture came from govt. Now itvity has infected armed forces.
eerie parallels to what i see at work with only diff being we fire emails not missiles so nobody dies from accidents.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Tsarkar,spot on.I too know an honest upright IAF Air Marshal who headed one arm of the IAF,never used his official vehicles for personal use.When he was the CO of an important air base,the camp dhobi of ancient years, asked to see him.When he met the CO,and asked the reason why,the dhobi said that he wanted to see the face of the first honest CO he had known in a very long time! Then there is the legendary story about navy chief Ronnie Pereira.On the eve of retirement Mrs.G. summoned him. She wanted to reward him with a plum posting as ambassador or Governor-whatever he wanted.Very apologetically he requested an out of turn allotment for a Bajaj scooter (old timers will remember that it took a few years to get a Bajaj in those days) ! Mrs. G almost fell off her chair.She told him that as the navy chief he could request anything he wanted ,a car,whatever.The good admiral then told her that as navy chief he could not do anything that would benefit him personally.He never accepted a gubernatorial or diplomatic post and was also a familiar figure riding his Bajaj in Bangalore until he had a major accident which almost killed him,losing hearing in one ear,Not many know that he also had only one lung.
That was the calibre of top leadership in the IN in the past.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

I had posted this early last year or late 2012 I think - a friend posted to WEESE was involved in trials of Kolkata. He had made some observations on certain electronic and communication systems and had refused to pass them as they were not up to spec. He told me 'I got calls from all kinds of people (BEL, babus) putting a lot of pressure on me. Its all about money. I did not join the navy for this and I am not going to let them short change the navy.' He is a Commander. But you hear similar stories from Vice Admirals as well.

OT on the face of it but shows how much control the MoD has. An ex GoCnC Northern Command who is very highly respected told me (when asked why we are not responding on the LOC and LAC) - what can I do ? Its a clear political decision.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Paul »

The Navy is facing a repeat of the MIG 21 flying coffin fiasco all over again. Hopefully something good will come off it.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

NDTV is reporting an accident at the Nuclear submarine building base - one killed 2 injured.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_28108 »

Too many accidents occurring peri-elections troublesome.
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Post by bhavani »

NDTV is reporting that there was an accident at the nuclear submarine site in visakhapatnam and one worker has been killed


http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/1-wor ... eststories
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

Unfortunate and tragic because it was likely preventable.

But....

"The submarines are safe and the accident does not adversely affect the project," the statement added.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_28440 »

Indian Ocean is heating up...It will be the battleground for this century.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by SaiK »

when there are loopholes in a setup,
one can always expect accidents.

this is all fundas about security and safety. safety and security is one subject area where even well performing systems can be brought down to knees. of course there stenghtening areas, and is where we say, we are better than the other.

the joint point protocols are where the loopholes begin in any chained or connected system. .. heck.. why do we say this?
because every time we hear,... the report says it is safe, that is secure, but this is fine, except only this is the problem, rest is all safe... etc culture will continue means it is the biggest loophole in the setup.

none can say : i guarantee this or that will not fail. wake me up then.... and till then expect failures and mtbf showing poor numbers.

just think about this loud... do we need any enemy to attack us, to destroy ourselves?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by ashmaharaj »

The NDTV article is displaying a picture of HMS Astute.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

NDTV is "obtuse"!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

ST Anthony throws in the Dhoti!

Rattle the drums,uncork the champagne.Stung by condemnation from all sides in the country,the much hated patron saint of the armed forces,is throwing in his dhoti-announced that he will not stand for election,and is assumed to be shortly returning by flight to paradise ,"God's own country",Kerala! There amongst the other angelic figures-his kith and kin,St.Anthony secretly nurtures hopes of becoming the archangel of "God's own Country" (GOC) yet again at the next ecclesiastical congress of the holy men of GOC.He has correctly deciphered the "writing on the wall" "moving finger",in the halls of Neo-Babylon (New Delhi),where the King ,Singh Bulsh*ttczar serf to the Roman empress Sonia, rules precariously.His kingdom will shortly be taken from him and divided to the Modis and his Persuasions!

PS:A great cartoon in the Hindu by Keshav.It shows St.Anthony at his desk with his "IN' Box full of coffins!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Bob V »

He's a member of the Rajya Sabha and will probably return so.
wig
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by wig »

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/ind ... -us-tanker

Indian Navy ship nearly collided with U.S. tanker
Indian Navy destroyer came very close to colliding with an American ship during a joint India-United States naval exercise. This has been disclosed by a US Navy officer on a public blog and in a follow-up AMA (Ask Me Anything) session between his readers and the author. The officer has also been severely critical of the professional standards of the Indian Navy. The blog was taken off after the Indian Navy took severe exception to the damning disclosure. The Sunday Guardian has a copy of the contents of the blog.

The revelation comes at a time when the Navy is in crisis following a string of accidents, which forced the resignation of Admiral D.K. Joshi.

The American officer, a lieutenant, serving on an Arleigh Burke destroyer of the US 7th Fleet, was an exchange officer for five days on the INS Delhi, the Indian flagship that participated in the India-US Malabar naval exercise in the Pacific.

"Their captain was driving the ship when it came within 50 feet of the stern of a USNS replenishment ship and at any given time there were multiple officers on the bridge screaming at each other. They were generally clueless and had almost zero seamanship skills," he claims.

A distance of just 50 feet between two large warships in choppy waters on the high seas qualifies as a near collision. The account suggests that the INS Delhi was approaching the US replenishment ship (a fuel tanker) to practice refuelling from an allied ship. The implications of a fully armed destroyer colliding with a floating oil tanker are very serious. An Indian Navy rear admiral was then on board the INS Delhi.

In a stunning indictment, the US Navy exchange officer observes that there was "no concept of safety of navigation... Absolutely did not adhere to rules of the road".

"Well, coming within 50 feet of another ship at sea is never a good sign. But, afterwards, the general consensus/excuse that they came up with during their mini-debrief was 'Oh well, rough seas, better luck next time' not 'holy ******* ****, we parted a tensioned wire cable made of braided steel under hundreds of thousands of pounds of tension'," he wrote.

The exchange officer — a surface warfare specialist — took a dim view both of the leadership style and also the fighting capability of the Indian Navy. "They could barely avoid hitting other ships in the middle of the Pacific, I doubt they'd be popping off any rounds (firing ammunition) with any amount of accuracy," he states.

Asked by a reader how he would rate the Indian Navy's chances in war, the officer responded, "I would be surprised if most of their gear worked. The stuff I saw (I got a pretty extensive tour) looked like it fell straight out of the 60s and 70s and I would be genuinely flabbergasted if they got any rounds off... Truthfully, after touring their ship extensively I would be very much surprised if the majority of their armament even successfully fired, let along hit anything."

When questioned, a senior Indian Navy officer dismissed the impression of the American officer. "Leading navies of the world have a healthy respect for the Indian Navy. Interaction and exchanges with the US Navy have only increased since this blog appeared. On the basis of its capability, the Indian Navy is among the world's most sought after navies for exercises and interaction," he claimed.

But observers are taking it more seriously because these are not just random observations but a detailed critique, even while accounting for some exaggerations and over-generalisation. "The engineering practices were abysmal....No electrical safety whatever. No operational risk management. No concept of safety of navigation," the US officer inferred.

In his view, the Indian sailors were casual about safety issues and were seen wearing sandals during important activities such as fuel replenishment and helicopter operations from the flight deck of the ship, and even in engineering spaces. "They legitimately didn't understand why I was wearing steel-toed flight deck boots. Things like these aren't cultural differences, they are golden exhibitions of their sheer lack of common sense and seamanship," he wrote.


Even more revealing are the American officer's observations on Indian leadership style, which is described as over-centralised, even feudal. "They don't entrust their people with any responsibility until they are very senior Lieutenants (O-3s) and junior Lieutenant Commanders (O-4s). At this point in the US Navy there are literally guys commanding ships, and these guys couldn't even be trusted to handle a radio circuit," the American observed.

He went on to describe the leadership style and the onboard culture as "extremely hierarchical and classist, even from a military standpoint", suggesting that all decisions are taken only by the captain, the executive officer (No. 2) and the navigation officer.

Clearly, rattled by what he describes as a near-collision between the INS Delhi and the US tanker, and the chaos on the bridge during that time, he scores the Indian Navy's sea skills at 3 out of 10, and blames it on faulty training. "They had some marginally competent folks, but for every one person who was half-competent, there were 4 other guys just standing around looking clueless. I would say that it's a fault in their training, because they have more than enough people running around not doing anything of particular use," he noted.
vaibhav.n
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by vaibhav.n »

^^^ The actual interview in detail....

BTW,this post's authenticity was always suspect, later on proven to be a fake!!

Link: http://www.paluba.info/smf/index.php?topic=17897.0;wap2
US Naval Officer spent 5 days onboard an Indian Navy warship, INS Delhi

Here is an interesting AMA from a US Naval Officer who spent 5 days on Indian Navy warship, INS Delhi. AMA means AskMeAnything where a person is asked questions which he answers.

IAmA US Naval Officer who spent 5 days onboard an Indian Navy warship, INS Delhi. AMA. : IAmA

I am posting questions and answers below. The US Navy officer is anonymous.

I see a lot of disappointments/shock in your comments. Were there any positives? Did they have good food?
Actually, their food was excellent. They also made really good tea, too. I drank nothing but hot milk tea my entire 5 days there because I was afraid of drinking the water (I saw their reverse osmosis units, dear god).

How bad was it?
15+ years old and they looked like nobody had done any maintenance in the last 5+ years. Their ROs were in such poor shape that despite having a greater fresh water production capacity than my ship by several thousand gallons, they were still on water hours.

How do they runs things differently then the USN?
Their engineering practices were abysmal. No undershirts, no steel-toed boots - they wore sandals - no hearing protection in their engineering spaces. No lagging (sound dampening material) in any space. No electrical safety whatsoever. No operational risk management. No concept of safety of navigation. Absolutely did not adhere to rules of the road. They more or less did not have any hard-copy written procedures for any exercise or event, at all. They had no concept of the coded fleet tactical system that US coalition forces and allies utilize (they literally made it up as they went along, and when I tried to interject and explain to them how it worked, they ignored me). When I arrived onboard they thought I was a midshipman and treated me as such. I had to be frank and explain that I was a commissioned officer and that yes, I stood officer on the deck onboard my ship and was a qualified surface warfare officer. They don't entrust their people with any responsibility until they are very senior Lieutenants (O-3s) and junior Lieutenant Commanders (O-4s). At this point in the US Navy there are literally guys commanding ships, and these guys couldn't even be trusted to handle a radio circuit.

How knowledgeable did you find the officers to be?
Well, their captain was driving the ship when it came within 50ft of the stern of a USNS replenishment ship and at any given time there were multiple officers on the bridge screaming at each other. They were generally clueless and had almost zero seamanship skills. I found their enlisted guys to be far more competent than their officers on the bridge.

Why do you think they're so incompetent and have such crappy operations?
Well, coming within 50ft of another ship at sea is never a good sign. But, afterwards, the general consensus/excuse that they came up with during their mini-debrief was "oh well, rough seas, better luck next time" not "holy ******* ****, we parted a tensioned wire cable made of braided steel under hundreds of thousands of pounds of tension".
And wearing sandals during replenishment/helo ops/boat ops/in engineering spaces pretty much says it all. They legitimately didn't understand why I was wearing steel-toed flight deck boots.
Things like these aren't cultural differences, they are golden exhibitions of their sheer lack of common sense and seamanship.

1. Are you breaking any US Navy rules by telling us all this?
2. How did they do in the exercise? Did they get "sunk" five times or what?
3. Were there equivalent Indian Navy personnel on a US Navy ship and do you happen to know their assessment? Were they disappointed by the lack of slaves?
4. Let's say **** hits the fan. India and Pakistan (or any other country. Take your pick) are at war and the ship you were on is sent into action. Would they be an effective fighting force or are they on the bottom of the ocean before the first day of shooting?
Great AMA btw!
1. I'm not breaking any rules in telling you this.
2. It wasn't a wargame-type exercise. It was basically one big five-day photo op.
3. I only have second-hand information about the Indian equivalent that came onboard my ship, but from what I understand he was impressed by the cleanliness of the ship and amazed that we had hot running water all day...
4. Truthfully - bottom of the ocean. I would be surprised if most of their gear worked. The stuff I saw (I got a pretty extensive tour) looked like it fell straight out of the 60s and 70s and I would be genuinely flabbergasted if they got any rounds off. They could barely avoid hitting other ships in the middle of the Pacific, I doubt they'd be popping off any rounds with any amount of accuracy.

I read 'Indian Navy' and I immediately pictured a ridiculously crowded boat, with everyone living(?) in squalor. Is that at all the case?
Actually, yes. Before I came onboard I was told to bring my own roll of toilet paper, if that alludes to the conditions that they live in at all. There was actually toilet paper aboard their ship. It was thinner than one-ply, if that's possible. I might as well have been wiping my *** with my bare hand.

After a particularly wet small boat ride over to their ship, I was dying to get out of my sea water-drenched uniform and into a fresh one (unfortunately, my entire bag was completely soaked to include my shirts, underwear, spare uniform, phone, camera, and my roll of toilet paper)...
I walked into their "officer's head" (their are extremely, extremely hierarchical and classist, even from a military standpoint) and there was a good 2" of ****-water sloshing around back and forth across the deck and an obscure, probably live wire with it's end wrapped in electrical tape non-surreptitiously protruding from the wall.
They have an entire "class" of civilians onboard. I still don't know what to make of them. I think they were some sort of cheap labor, but everybody onboard referred to them as slaves. As in, they used the word "slave". Anyways, the quarters those guys lived in was awful, it was basically a big open space partitioned with a sheet. They slept on a steel deck with a simple blanket and a pillow. Good times.
Their enlisted guys didn't have it much better. Their berthing was infested with rats (a guy from my ship swore up and down that he saw a rat that was no-**** the length of his arm) and another US sailor from another ship came back covered in bed-bug sores. Dude looked like he had ******* chicken pocks.

Awesome AMA so far. I'm former US navy as well, so I can appreciate your shock and dismay at their abysmal practices.
1. What was your single biggest 'are you ******* kidding me' moment?
2. What was your biggest priority when you got back to your ship?
3. At any point did you consider trying to assume OOD for your own safety?
4. Will anyone important listen to your assessment of their battle-readiness?

gvardian:
Thanks in advance!
1. Have you ever seen a US ship do an unrep at sea? When we pull along side and shoot the shotline across (basically a thick piece of yarn for those who don't know) there's a nice soft tennis ball affixed to the end of it so that it'll bounce of the deck and someone can go retrieve it... the Indians shot a spear. A ****** spear. Like, a 16" long piece of metal with a point on the end....

2. Biggest priority was showering. I hadn't showered properly in almost 5 days, and all of my
uniforms reeked of seawater.

3. I wouldn't dare try and assume the deck like that. Even on a US ship that would be extremely, extremely out of line. On a foreign Navy ship? **** it, I can swim... Honestly though, when they passed under (50 feet from) the replenishment ship, I was generally afraid they were going to collide. 50ft at sea is extremely, extremely close. I had to leave the bridge after that ****, I just couldn't stomach it anymore.

4. And yes, I wrote up a full-debrief afterwards that was read by my CO/XO and presumably ISIC.

On an arbitrary scale from 1-10, 1 being full retard and ten being space marine quality training and efficiency, how would you rate their sailors quality?
3, at best. They had some marginally competent folks, but for every one person who was half-competent, there were 4 other guys just standing around looking clueless.

Why do you think this is? Are those guys not trained? Are their ships "overstaffed"?
I have staff in India and find that there is a tendency to do nothing when they are unsure of something, instead of coming to me and asking for an explanation.
They were great at doing the same things over and over again, but when I simply asked for an outcome and expected them to figure out HOW to do it, they were stumped.
Well, considering how undermanned US ships are at the moment (our CRUDES - crusiers/destroyers) are, on average, missing about 20-30 people give or take - destroyers more so.... I would say that it's a fault in their training, because they have more than enough people running around not doing anything of particular use.
And I agree. These guys were having issues breaking/generating a fairly widely used NATO standard fleet tactical code system that we use among allied nations and I was trying (in vain) to show them how to say what they wanted to say. I literally wrote out word for word what they needed to pass over the rt circuit and they still refused to believe that I was correct...and continued passing incomprehensible gibberish over the airwaves..

NROTC Midshipman here. I didn't know CRUDES were undermanned – why is that? Also, what rank are you? Ship? How do I not suck as an officer?
CRUDES are very undermanned. USS LASTSHIP (flight I DDG) was at 262 when I left. The ships were built for about 315. Cruisers weren't quite as bad, but they're still lacking people as well.
I'm a LTJG. Won't tell you what ship I was on, just know that it's a DDG out of Yoko.
As for how to not suck as an officer? LISTEN TO YOUR CHIEF, YOUR FIRST CLASS, AND YOUR ****-HOT SECOND CLASSES. Always trust your people until they give you a reason not to.

Thanks for the AMA. Did you or any other USNS staff point out these obvious failings to your counterparts? Or was it all just for show and you were basically told to endure.
Oh, the USNS released a full sitrep (situation report) afterwards. And I absolutely told my chain of command about all of this stuff. There is a very specific process that we go through upon returning from any foreign Navy ship. Basically, we sit down and chronicle our entire experience.

Do you think the Indian navy will take any of this advice to heart? DO they actually want to improve? Or will they just brush it off or even be offended that you are insulting their capabilities?
The latter. They pretty much wrote off every piece of advice that I humbly gave them in my time onboard.

Were there sensitive areas onboard the Indian ship you weren't allowed to enter? And vice versa, were the Indian exchange officers allowed to see the US ships in their entirety?
I saw some, but not all of their fire control spaces. I saw their "ops room" - basically their version of
the Combat Information Center. However, I would guarantee that I didn't see everything that there was to see.
And no Ally really truly ever sees every space on a US ship. There are spaces on our ships that even 99% of the ships crew isn't allowed to see. And that's all I have to say about that.

What is your opinion about their war capability?
Truthfully, after touring their ship extensively I would be very much surprised if the majority of their armament even successfully fired, let along hit anything.

How much of the poor conditions do you think can be attributed to poor funding/resources as opposed to the service not giving a ****?
90% of it was the service not giving a ****. Their wardroom (where the officers ate/hung out) was EXTREMELY nice, clean, well-decorated, had a fully-stocked bar with and nice oil pantings and other contemporary decor...but the rest of the ship was a complete and utter pigsty.

As a sailor....I'm so sorry sir! How the **** did you end up with such shitty orders though?
I bet a deployment on a big deck is looking mighty fine after this!
It's all good. I enjoyed 7th Fleet and my time on a FDNF DDG taught me a LOT. I'm not a SWO anymore (I lat transferred to IP - part of the IDC community) but I grew a lot as a person, and professionally, out in Yoko... I actually chose to go out there. I'd love to go back for shore duty, but I'd never go back to 7th Fleet for sea duty, ever.

That's a lot of acronyms. Any help for us rookies?
FDNF - Forward Deployed Naval Forces - this is how we refer to the US Navy's 7th Fleet, stationed in Yokosuka, Japan, because they are permanently forward deployed outside of the US.
DDG - The hull code for the kind of ship I was on - an Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyer.
SWO - Surface Warfare Officer - what I used to be.
IP - Information Professional - what I am now (basically network security/networking management).

How did the Indian officers visiting U.S. ships react?
From what I remember, they sent a Chief Petty Officer (E-7) equivalent over to our ship, an engineering type. From what everybody back on my ship told me (after I got back, of course), they guy walked through our ship and engineering spaces and was amazed at how clean everything was and, ironically, that we had hot running water all day.

How good was the curry?
Pretty much all of their food was really good, but then again, I'm a big fan of Indian cuisine. They were all actually pretty surprised that I readily ate whatever they put in front of me. I ate the **** out of whatever they served my entire time there.

How did you wind up being on board the ship? How were you rescued?
Well, I wasn't stranded or anything, so there wasn't a "rescue" per se. Basically, whenever the US does any sort of multi-naval exercise with other nations, it is pretty common that we exchange a few people from each ship as sort of a naval-cultural exchange. In this case, I was sent from a US Navy destroyer based out of Japan to the INS Delhi - the Indian Navy's flagship as part of an exercise that took place last March.
As for how I got there, we did a fairly massive passenger exchange that consisted of about 5-6 ships pulling up in basically a big circle within about 500 yards of one another and then we all dropped our small boats in the water, exchanges passengers, and that was that. It was a particularly choppy day at sea and most of us were sufficiently soaked.

Holy crap, that was their FLAGSHIP?
They had a 2-star admiral embarked...lol.
I know nada about the Indian navy, but I thought their armed forces were pretty professional. Can you prove your identity?


Describe some of the smells?
The ship generally smelled "old". I dunno if you have every been on a ship - namely a warship - before, but this one smelled like it was ******* from the inside out. Rust, decaying paint, dirty spaces, mechanical fumes...it generally smelled musty, I guess is the best way to describe it. Imagine if you farted in a vacuum and then immediately sealed the door, and then you opened said door 10 years later...that's what their ship smelled like pretty consistently.
Last edited by vaibhav.n on 10 Mar 2014 13:21, edited 1 time in total.
Austin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

^^ Looks like a PR Exercise to defame the IN...... its cheap propaganda
Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Like a Paki note! Probably made in Pak in cahoots with vested yanqui interests.
Manish_Sharma
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Manish_Sharma »

According to Wiki:
INS Delhi - 15 November 1997 Active
INS Mysore - 2 June 1999 Active
INS Mumbai - 22 January 2001 Active
It seems the ships are not that old, why this amriki is writing such nasty things? Would be great to have articles thrashing him by Sarvshri Tsarkar, Chetak and Philip.

:x
Sid
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Sid »

If I may be the devil's advocate, how do we know everything he said was not true?

Did anyone checked or did some other exchange sailor said otherwise? Whatever he said really hurts like hell, because it's contrary to our beliefs. But is that rosy picture drawn by Navy actually true?

Instead of armchair generals answering this with their own assumptions, if some retired folks can answer these points "objectively" then we can really have a closure on this discussion.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Brando »

^^ This tripe is OLD OLD bunk posted on Reddit a couple of years ago that ego massaged the Ameriki's. There were no Indians to provide any countervailing arguments to burst this rubbish so this Amerikhan clown kept ranting on and on until he was found out and then hastily cut and ran away before informed people could question him.

There are warship tours ALL over the Indian Ocean numerous times a year, anybody who has set foot on an Indian Navy vessel will realize one thing - it's CLEAN , very clean. In fact, keeping a ship clean is the FIRST thing they teach sailors. This rubbish about dirty, rusty, old, etc is utter bunk. And a "Captain" never "drives"/pilots a ship, even a cruise ship captain won't do that. Lastly, the Indian Navy has been in service for nearly a century now, taught and indoctrinated to the traditions and institutions of the Royal Navy, can even a lay person believe that the Indian Navy's flagship would be filled with officers shouting at each other in some chaotic melee with the officers clueless as to seamanship or navigation ?

This rubbish was obviously written by some US Navy two-bit clown (2nd Lt apparently) who never set foot on a Indian Naval vessel but decided to get some "attention" on Reddit conning people who don't know better with no Indians in the know to call him on his bunk. You don't need to be "armchair" generals or admirals to see this tripe for what it is.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Klaus »

My BS meter went off when I read the terms "driving the ship", "slave class", "referred to as slaves" & the line about 2 inches of water sloshing around the deck area.
chackojoseph
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

The old reditt article appeared to a counter to

Experience of Australian Midshipman on Chinese Naval training Ship Zhenghe

IMHO. The account was proved to be fake and not Amrikaaan.
member_28108
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_28108 »

Ajit.C wrote:
Gagan wrote:Feel bad posting this.
Google's updated images now show the Sindhuratna's sail as it sits underwater in Mumbai
Image
Thought is was Sindhurakshak that has sits at the bottom of Mumbai Harbour.
I am unable to see this in google maps- can you give the coordinates
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by arshyam »

I know nada about the Indian navy, but I thought their armed forces were pretty professional. Can you prove your identity?

<silence>
Says it all. Anyone can write anything, including this pathetic excuse of a journo. See how ingeniously he avoids mentioning when this so-call incident happend, or the name of the blog they have a copy of.Time to add this guy to the media watch list for attempting a smear job.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

As per Vishal Thapar, this IAmA has been confirmed by USN and IN.
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