Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 11 Mar 2014 12:21

http://www.c7f.navy.mil/news/2012/04-april/022.htm

This is an authentic report on the IN from Malabar 2012. The IN is considered to be the best navy in the IN. I saw a statement to that effect from a US official recently. Not sure who.

Pls dont believe this regurgitated BS you read.

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 11 Mar 2014 13:21

Not good news on the Scorpenes... And we have yet to build ours!

http://www.defencetalk.com/malaysia-fir ... yIKE4.like

Kuala Lumpur: Malaysia’s first submarine, a European-made Scorpene delivered last September, has developed problems that make it unfit for diving, the defence minister said Thursday.
The KD Tunku Abdul Rahman sailed into a grand reception last year as the first of two commissioned from French contractor DCNS and Spain’s Navantia for a total of 3.4 billion ringgit (961 million dollars).
Named after the country’s first prime minister, it was hailed as an important acquisition despite opposition allegations of corruption in the deal.
“The submarine can still dive but when we detected the defects, we were advised that it should not dive,” Defence Minister Ahmad Zahid Hamidi told reporters.

Read more: http://www.defencetalk.com/malaysia-fir ... z2vdmu8gpM

sum · Post by **sum** » 11 Mar 2014 13:36

^^Ummm, what really is a sub's function if not "diving"?

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 11 Mar 2014 13:50

Considering how building our Scorpenes has been nothing short of the metaphorical 'dog's breakfast', it is going to be one hell of first seatrial for the first submarine to roll out!

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 11 Mar 2014 15:48

chackojoseph wrote:As per Vishal Thapar, this IAmA has been confirmed by USN and IN.

Chacko, any source for this please - article, quote etc ? I believe you but it is always good to have something more.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 11 Mar 2014 17:35

Sanjay,

That's his statement. I had a reasonable debate with him on our def correspondents group. As per him, this was written by a young US Navy Lt. who was an exchange officer on the INS Delhi during Malabar. I am not batting for Vishal Thapar, but he is quite a respectable member of the def correspondents community (unlike the guy from Trishul Blog).

Bu, this does not qualify your requirement of article, quote etc. I have none to offer.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 11 Mar 2014 17:47

Some people love to belly ache and bitch. Why are you guys giving this any heedance at all? I'm surprised the idiot loved the food on board and didn't complain about it. I've met officers who treated us the same way, like every enlisted man was just trying to ruin his day. Some people are just not worth the gun powder to blow them to hell. It's one of the reasons why I got out of the miltiary when my enlistment was up.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 11 Mar 2014 18:06

chackojoseph wrote:Sanjay,

That's his statement. I had a reasonable debate with him on our def correspondents group. As per him, this was written by a young US Navy Lt. who was an exchange officer on the INS Delhi during Malabar. I am not batting for Vishal Thapar, but he is quite a respectable member of the def correspondents community (unlike the guy from Trishul Blog).

Bu, this does not qualify your requirement of article, quote etc. I have none to offer.

I am satisfied. It does put a different spin on things.

What it does raise is this - given the fact that none of my IN warship visits have revealed unkempt ships and non-functional weapons - how true is his account in terms of a reflection on IN operations ?

Out of sheer malice I decided to look at US navy accidents and found some good ones:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/01/world ... -reef.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/1 ... 70096.html

http://maritime-connector.com/news/gene ... -accident/

http://www.newser.com/story/177728/navy ... -port.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/15/world ... .html?_r=0

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/29/us/ar ... -accident/

No pleasure or reflection on the USN but sometimes accidents happen.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 11 Mar 2014 21:26

as a lay person, i think the account should not be dismissed outright.

i would tend to agree with his comments on things abt safety etc. on board the ship. we are indeed very casual abt safety, procedures as a nation? jab time aayega to kuch nahi bacha payega ... the whole mindset is very casual towards safety...

to a american mind, the distinction between officer and other ranks must be quite an experience given the socio cultural background. So i dont discount his version on this count.

quite possible that ship is sailing with some equipment not working.. a beast as complex as a ship surely would have such issues..MOD not releasing cash for repair or the tendering process happening?? looking for L1

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 11 Mar 2014 23:42

Indian Navy joins search for missing Malaysian plane in the Malacca Straits

Ships of the Indian Navy that are on patrol in the Malacca Straits are participating in Search and Rescue (SAR) operations for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 that has been missing since Saturday with 239 people on board.

Those tracking the aircraft have said that it disappeared over the Malacca Straits while attempting to fly back to Kuala Lumpur from where it took off for Beijing.

The Indian Navy's satellite Rukmini or GSAT-7 has also been activated to try and pick up any clue that may lead investigators to the missing Boeing 777-200 aircraft.

"Indian Navy ships are on routine patrol in the Malacca Straits. Our ships carry out coordinated anti-piracy patrols with the navies of countries like Indonesia and Malaysia. As per the laws of the sea, it is only natural that our vessels will participate in the SAR operations. The ships that have heli-components will use the aircraft for the operations. Though several navies patrol the busy shipping lines passing through the Malacca Straits, India has a strong presence there," an official said.

The Navy believes that this will also be a good opportunity to try out the Rukmini satellite, which became operational in 2013 and has put up a commendable performance during exercises.

During the recently concluded Theatre-level Readiness and Operational Exercise (Tropex) in the Bay of Bengal, Rukmini was able to network about 60 ships and 75 aircraft seamlessly. The intention of the Indian Navy is to use this geostationary naval communication and surveillance satellite to cover activities up to the Malacca Straits in the east and the Hormuz Strait to the west. Rukmini has a nearly 2,000 nautical mile 'footprint' over the Indian Ocean Region, another official said.

"There is no competition involved but this is certainly a challenge. SAR operations are a crucial part of any navy's duties, particularly if it wishes to achieve 'blue-water' status. In Fact, SAR operations was the highlight of Milan 2014, the exercise organized by the Indian Navy at Port Blair in February this year in which several navies from the Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean regions participated," the official added.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 12 Mar 2014 00:38

I am sure there are mice on Indian navy ships just as there are cockroaches on USN ships.

However the problem with anecdotes is the source. Perhaps the good seaman was caught pilfering the silver from the officer's mess. And perhaps I missed the seamanship involved in surfacing a nuke sub under a Japanese vessel. Meets his concept of high standards no doubt.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 12 Mar 2014 02:47

chackojoseph wrote:Sanjay,

That's his statement. I had a reasonable debate with him on our def correspondents group. As per him, this was written by a young US Navy Lt. who was an exchange officer on the INS Delhi during Malabar.

That much was revealed by the Op of the IamA himself. Including the fact that he was a Surface Warfare Officer Lt j.g.

However the op did also mention that in his limited time on board the INS Delhi he did have an opportunity to thoroughly check the Reverse Osmosis water purification system and found it wanting, apart from checking in to the living quarters of the officers and the "slaves", the engineering spaces, the officers galley, etc. Since the Malabar exercise was for just 3-4 days, he sounded like he did an entire deployment onboard the Delhi to have surveyed the 6000 tonnes destroyer so thoroughly.

Of course, since we have no ex-naval or current serving naval officers on the forum to come on the record to educate all of us, we can only take the word of defense correspondents for what its worth. However it is strange that the entire IamA was pulled shortly after it came to light and the user deleted his entire profile from Reddit.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Mar 2014 06:05

It appears, that higher echelons in both USN and IN did not take that kindly and hence was pulled out.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 12 Mar 2014 09:10

Indian Navy To Open Search for Carrier Air Defense System

The Indian Navy has declined, for now, a Russian offer to mount the Kashtan air defense system on India’s INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier, and instead will seek a system through open competition, a Defence Ministry source said.

Originally, the former Admiral Gorshkov was to be mounted with an Indo-Israeli air defense system, the long-range surface-to-air missile system, which has been under development by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation since 2007. But technical problems created uncertainty about whether the system would ever be completed, the MoD source said.

During a recent meeting here of the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation, Russia offered to mount the Kashtan close-in weapon system to meet the Russian-built carrier’s air defense needs. While the system has not been rejected outright, the Navy says it wants to explore the market for alternate systems.

The Vikramaditya, which went through a refit at Russia’s Sevmash shipyard, sailed to India last month without an air defense system on board. The MoD source said the Navy has made a request to begin the process of acquiring a system.

The Israelis have approached the MoD and made a presentation of the Barak air defense system; the French also have expressed interest in participating in the competition if held, the MoD source said.

An Indian Navy official said the service has faced problems in the timely supply of spares from Russia for several of “their assets,” including submarines, and the lengthy delay in acquiring the carrier drove the decision to decline the Russian offer for Kashtan.

“Better options should be explored for getting weapons for the Russian-built carrier,” the official said.

When asked if the Vikramaditya is vulnerable to enemy attack because it lacks an air defense system, the Navy official said the carrier will function in a group where other frigates and destroyers will provide adequate air defense.

A diplomat with the Russian Embassy here said the offer to mount the Kashtan system on the ship has always been open to the Indian Navy, but it never showed interest in receiving the system.

“The Indian Navy has yet to decide the weapon systems it wants to mount on the Russian carrier, nearly a decade after the deal was inked in 2004,” said Mahindra Singh, a retired Indian Army major general and defense analyst

The Vikramaditya will be fitted with 20mm and 30mm guns along with the air defense system, another Navy official said.

The Navy has one operating 50-year-old aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, whose life has been extended to 2017, when the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier joins the service.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Mar 2014 09:58

Dont understand IN , They can use Barak-1/AK-630 CIWS as they use on other new ships and standardise on it , why the need for global tender etc will delay the process and would leave the ship without CIWS.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 12 Mar 2014 10:20

Austin wrote:Dont understand IN , They can use Barak-1/AK-630 CIWS as they use on other new ships and standardise on it , why the need for global tender etc will delay the process and would leave the ship without CIWS.

Well its easy, read the following quote

the French also have expressed interest in participating in the competition if held, the MoD source said.

French = big money = everyone happy. Instead of aster they will offer us some sort of VL MICA which we will gladly and humbly accept.

Well we talk about IAF having multiple platforms, in case of IN almost every platform has different weapon system. For CIWS we have Kashtan, AK-630, Barak-1, Barak-2 (coming soon) and even Phalanx.

sarkar · Post by **sarkar** » 12 Mar 2014 13:01

In the recent developments around missing Malaysian Jet, Indian Navy has joined SAR ops.
Malacca Straits is like Andaman's neighborhood. Good time to test Rukmini sat.

Indian Navy joins SAR for missing Malaysian plane in the Malacca Straits

The Navy believes that this will also be a good opportunity to try out the Rukmini satellite, which became operational in 2013 and has put up a commendable performance during exercises.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 12 Mar 2014 13:05

Rukmini is a communications satellite, how alone will it help in SAR mission if no indian ships are involved? In no news I have heard indian ships getting involved

Hemanth · Post by **Hemanth** » 12 Mar 2014 15:19

sarkar wrote:In the recent developments around missing Malaysian Jet, Indian Navy has joined SAR ops.
Malacca Straits is like Andaman's neighborhood. Good time to test Rukmini sat.

Indian Navy joins SAR for missing Malaysian plane in the Malacca Straits

The Navy believes that this will also be a good opportunity to try out the Rukmini satellite, which became operational in 2013 and has put up a commendable performance during exercises.

I was wondering for that last few days that why IN is not involved in the SAR operations for the missing Malaysian flight. Considering we have ambitions in the east, it was a good opportunity to show some initiative/leadership if we'd join the search sooner.

srin · Post by **srin** » 12 Mar 2014 15:45

Not a question of leadership but of common sense. As long as the search was on the east of Malaysia, there were already too many cooks involved.

But now with reports of the aircraft being spotted going to the west across Mallaca st. and towards Andaman sea, then it comes right in IN's area of control.

mody · Post by **mody** » 12 Mar 2014 15:58

Based on the IamA by the american naval officer, I would be happy if we can initiate an objective discussion on training in the Indian Navy.
The training for IAF and IA is known to a much better extent as compared to the Navy.

I am completely a lay person as far as affairs of the Indian Navy are concerned, but would not dismiss things like a highly hierarchical structure and very little delegation of important responsibilities and duties completely off hand.
The Indian military is known to be a very hierarchical structure and often blamed for being inflexible in this regards. Though most of this criticism comes to the army and the growing disconnect between the officers and the Jawans and for that matter also the Higher Ups or senior officers and the Juniors, not much is know about the Navy.
In fact I have even heard from people in the army, about many senior officers looking down on newly recruited junior officers, as not being cut from the same cloth and lamenting that the quality of new officers does not match up their own and their predecessors, exalting standards. Though my personal impression was that this was the view of only few seniors who still looked at themselves as continuing the old British traditions of the army officer core and had mostly spent most of their careers sitting on well cushioned chairs rather then sweating in the field.

Though this kind of attitude, does lead to some disconnect between the various ranks and can affect the operational effectiveness of the force.

Any information about the training regimen for cadets and officers of the Indian Navy and what responsibilities the various ranks handle on a typical frigate or destroyer, would be appreciated.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Mar 2014 16:35

Malaysia asks India to join hunt for missing plane

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 13 Mar 2014 22:54

INS Kurusura (now converted into a Museum at Vizag) at sunset
(Just wanted to remind everyone about some good things amid all the bad news coming about IN)

Link
Mods: Kindly move if not suitable for this thread

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 14 Mar 2014 05:17

Hi,

This was published on Feb 28 before the accident at Vizag and on Kolkata.

Just pasting the link and article here

http://m.firstpost.com/india/sindhuratn ... tml?page=1

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 14 Mar 2014 09:47

mody wrote:Based on the IamA by the american naval officer, I would be happy if we can initiate an objective discussion on training in the Indian Navy.
The training for IAF and IA is known to a much better extent as compared to the Navy.

I am completely a lay person as far as affairs of the Indian Navy are concerned, but would not dismiss things like a highly hierarchical structure and very little delegation of important responsibilities and duties completely off hand.

The Navy is incidentally, the least hierarchical of the three services, if that is your central tenet to drive forward the discussion. So best of luck pursuing that theory. Also do google OOD and OOW to get a better handle of how delegation in all Navies is implicit in their operations, not by some management mantra.

Let's face it, it's the recent spate of accidents and not an individual foreign officer's reported views that are making us question the IN's professionalism across the board. Trouble is for suitably picked time windows we can look at the IAF and IA record as well, and the conclusions will largely be the same:

1. Stretched equipment/manpower leading to poor SOPs/Training.

2. Careerist top brass not willing to make hue and cry to netas, and waiting for the sh$$ to the hit the fan.

3. Lack of institutional forums/culture for frontline officers to raise these issues with the top brass.

Trouble is fixing such issues requires leadership of the calibre not present in our higher defence management. So...

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 14 Mar 2014 09:55

Japan Draws Up Overhaul Of Arms-Export Ban

TOKYO — Japan’s ruling Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) has drawn up plans to overhaul the pacifist country’s self-imposed ban on arms exports, an official said Thursday, in a move that could anger China.

The government of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe has delivered the blueprint to lawmakers in his party and coalition partner New Komeito, according to an LDP official, with the premier looking for a green light from cabinet by the end of the month.
The relaxed rules could allow Tokyo to supply weaponry to nations that sit along important sea lanes to help them fight piracy and also help resource-poor Japan, which depends on mineral imports.

Japanese arms could potentially be shipped to Indonesia as well as nations around the South China Sea — through which fossil fuels pass — such as the Philippines, for example, which has a territorial dispute with Beijing.

The move would boost Japan’s defense industry amid simmering regional tensions including a territorial row with China, and fears over an unpredictable North Korea.

Japan already supplies equipment to the Philippines’ coast guard, an organization that is increasingly on the front line in the nation’s territorial rows with Beijing.

Any move to bolster that support with more outright weapon supplies could irk China, which regularly accuses Abe of trying to re-militarize his country.

China and Japan are at loggerheads over the ownership of a string of islands in the East China Sea, while Beijing is also in dispute with several nations over territory in the South China Sea, which it claims almost entirely.

Under its 1967 ban, Japan does not sell arms to communist nations, countries where the United Nations bans weapons sales, and nations that might become involved in armed conflicts.

The rule has long enjoyed widespread public support as a symbol of Japan’s post-war pacifism.
But it has been widely seen as impractical among experts, because it stops Japan from joining international projects to jointly develop sophisticated military equipment, such as jets and missiles.

In 2011 Tokyo eased the ban on arms exports, paving the way for Japanese firms to take part in multinational weapons projects.

Japan works with its only official ally the United States on weapon projects.

It also works with Britain, but it does not fully participate in multi-nation programs aimed at sharing development cost and know-how, because of the current ban.

The new rules may open the door to Japan’s broader participation in such projects.
But they would still “ban exports to countries involved in international conflicts,” and exports that would undermine international peace and security, Abe told parliament this week.

Japanese experts are divided over an overhaul, with some saying it is necessary for cutting defense costs, while others expressing concerns over tainting Japan’s peaceful image by expanding markets for the nation’s defense industry.

Maybe Navy could be benefited from this decision

love to see something like this with IN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izumo-clas ... _destroyer

srin · Post by **srin** » 14 Mar 2014 10:29

Two higher priorities ... US-2 for ASW and Soryu class subs

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Mar 2014 12:40

+100 to a mixed fleet of Soryu and SSNs. get the first 4 build in japan and next 15 built in India in tranches of 5.

the Kilos and U209 will reach EOL by 2020 no matter which way we hack it. they are platforms for a different role (anti TSP) and era. we have far outgrown TSP as a security threat now.

kit · Post by **kit** » 14 Mar 2014 14:03

Seems the Malaysia n radar was well able to track IIndian airspace in the andamans ?

Ajit.C · Post by **Ajit.C** » 14 Mar 2014 14:36

That not surprising. They can look into our airspace as we can. Anyway what Malaysia is saying that they tracked the plane moving towards A&N, that would not mean they can look into our airspace.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 14 Mar 2014 15:26

If it was tracked going towards A&N, our air defense radar should have and would have picked it up.

But it does gives all those 11 countries to poke around their nose in IOR region with all their snooping equipment.

Will · Post by **Will** » 14 Mar 2014 16:35

The problem here in giving out any raw data from military radars in the A&N is that it will compromise the range of the radars. Maybe India will just share data from civilian radars.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Mar 2014 17:50

Why share anything? Why not analyze within the country and act?

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 14 Mar 2014 20:07

As Chinese are directly invoiced in this ... it will be suicide to provide anyone with raw radar data or processed data.

Provide only abstract data, which is required for the search. Nothing more or less. If we can not provide anything valuable then simply refuse to share anything by stating it can be used against our national security point.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 14 Mar 2014 20:24

if it was a suicide, i suspect the pilot would have taken it to the radar blind spots. pilots are well aware of areas of no radar coverage... i would strongly suspect that ...area south west of KL...away from any land mass !!?? deep into the indian ocean

John · Post by **John** » 14 Mar 2014 22:26

manjgu wrote:if it was a suicide, i suspect the pilot would have taken it to the radar blind spots. pilots are well aware of areas of no radar coverage... i would strongly suspect that ...area south west of KL...away from any land mass !!?? deep into the indian ocean

Pilots only know of radar blind spots when it comes to tracking by control towers they don't know all of aviation radar blind spots let alone military ones. if it was suicide last thing you would do is diverge from intended flight path ideally which in most situations would have had Fighter jets chasing you down in this case looks both Malaysia/Vietnamese military failed to track the jet.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 Mar 2014 22:32

i dont think most civilian pilots would know about radar blindspots with any accuracy

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Mar 2014 22:39

^^^^

They do. They have to. In areas where there is no *civilian* radar they go by an algo. There is a no-radar segment between North A and Europe too.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 Mar 2014 22:57

sure they know approximate coverage, i doubt very much they know exactly how to dodge in and out of arcs

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Mar 2014 23:49

They should. Because before they entire one they are given a altitude, speed and direction to fly at - by a computer that determines all that using an algorithm.

Else planes are liable to break the (vertical/horizontal) separation rules.

IIRC, some newer planes have some capability to do some of these things. But I am not sure how it fits into the bigger picture.