Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

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chackojoseph
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 18 Mar 2014 16:42

No incident recorded on board INS Trishul : Indian Navy

:D PRO needs steel nerves in such times. Facing media in such tough times is not easy.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Ajit.C » 18 Mar 2014 20:21

chackojoseph wrote:No incident recorded on board INS Trishul : Indian Navy

:D PRO needs steel nerves in such times. Facing media in such tough times is not easy.

What he said is correct in one way. There was no incident "on board" (inside the ship). The accident happened outside the ship "out board". :lol:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 19 Mar 2014 06:11

Good number of data points.

Radar on Mainland Too Robust to Miss a Jet, Experts Say

If the missing Malaysia Airlines jetliner flew north over the Asian mainland after it lost contact with ground controllers on March 8, it would have had a difficult time avoiding detection by Chinese, Indian or American radar, current and former military officers say.


The northern arc crosses some of the most closely defended borders in the world. Experts on the radar systems in use in the area say that a Boeing 777, which has a large radar profile, would more likely than not have been detected by Chinese and Indian air defense forces and by American forces in Afghanistan.


The Indian radar systems in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands might have missed the plane, the senior Indian military official said, because the islands are “not a tense area.” But analysts said India’s air defenses in the north, near China and Pakistan, are more robust — an opinion shared by one Indian Air Force pilot who asked not to be identified because he was not authorized to speak to reporters.

“There is no way or the slightest possibility of our radars’ having missed the plane,” the Indian pilot said. “We do not have an open air policy. Any blip, the slightest, has to be given attention. Most of our radars are semi-automated. If there is any aircraft not identified by virtue of its registration or identification, there will be an instant reaction at our end.”

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 20 Mar 2014 04:57

China wants its warships in Indian waters to search for plane

With the search for missing Malaysian plane turning to India's neighbourhood, China has sought permission for sending its four warships into the Indian waters, causing a major dilemma for the authorities.

India, which had suspended the search operations for last three days, resumed efforts on Wednesday to locate the aircraft in South Indian Ocean region.

China, whose 150 nationals are on board the aircraft, has sent a formal request to India to allow their warships including a salvage vessel and two frigates to enter Indian waters in the Andaman Sea to locate the plane, sources said.

The government, which has been taken by surprise, will take a decision the request after consulting the defence forces, particularly the Navy, the sources said.

The dilemma for the government is because its assets in the Arabian Sea are mainly to guard against China and these could get exposed if the Chinese warships are allowed in.

Meanwhile, Indian Navy and the Air Force along with Coast Guard ships resumed operations to locate the aircraft after keeping them suspended for three days awaiting instruction for looking into new areas.

A Navy official said the Naval and other assets have now been asked to look into the South Indian Ocean stretching south from Jakarta after the request from the Malaysian authorities.

India has deployed six warships and five maritime surveillance aircraft to locate the missing airliner with 239 passengers on board.

The assets deployed for the search operations include INS Saryu, INS Kumbhir and INS Kesari from the Navy and ICGS Kanaklata Barua and ICGS Bhikaji Cama.

The Navy has also deployed two of its P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft from INS Rajali in Tamil Nadu for locating the missing plane along with its Dornier maritime surveillance aircraft.

The IAF has also pressed into action its C-130J Super Hercules Special Operations aircraft fitted with modern surveillance capabilities to find the plane.

Image: Two Chinese surveillance ships which sailed between Philippines warship and Chinese fishing boats to prevent arrest of any fishermen in the Scarborough Shoal

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nits » 20 Mar 2014 11:45

Too much coincidene that starting from South China Sea to indian Ocean; there was no AWACS deployed on routine sortie by China, Japan, India, US ( from diego garcia ) etc at that point of time; which could have detected the Malyasian Plane...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 20 Mar 2014 13:03

under normal conditions, why would anyone deploy awacs over the region?
(hint - its mainly empty ocean, and the indonesians and australians are not threatening anyone at the moment)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nits » 20 Mar 2014 14:45

IMHO - even if its not deployed over the empty sea; Awacs within countrys limit have range to scan area which act as one of the busiest air travel route; plus after china and japan have declared there own Air Zones i believe both of them and US have all reasons to deploys AWACS

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Brando » 20 Mar 2014 15:27

Why are we talking about AWACS ? Is this some stealth aircraft with ECM ?? This 777 is basically a giant aluminum can, why do we need AWACs ? The real wonder is that shore based radar didn't catch any sign of it at all.

The Chinese "snooping" around A&N was something I KNEW would happen sooner or later. Apparently for the Han, our SDRE assurances and searches are not adequate - they want to send their own ships ? Not likely.

Let's reverse the dynamic and ask ourselves if China would let the US search Hainan island for one of its lost civilian airliners ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 20 Mar 2014 18:45

Well, if you have plenty of time or cannot catch sleep, here is a Bond istyle story for you:

Malaysian Aircraft 370: Truth Buried in the Pacific?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 20 Mar 2014 19:04

nits wrote:Too much coincidene that starting from South China Sea to indian Ocean; there was no AWACS deployed on routine sortie by China, Japan, India, US ( from diego garcia ) etc at that point of time; which could have detected the Malyasian Plane...


The AWACS needs to be looking in the right direction. There may have been AWACS deployments that had a different mission profile. These would be classified, for sure.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby krishnan » 20 Mar 2014 19:25

so A/C's can evade a AWACS ???

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 20 Mar 2014 19:39

krishnan wrote:so A/C's can evade a AWACS ???


Why would an Indian AWACS normally be looking towards australia??

Our threats and interests are in a different direction.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 20 Mar 2014 19:48

IN should send its survey ships etc. Imagine the realtime experiences we can gather. HMS Echo is heading towards suspected MH370 crash site.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 20 Mar 2014 19:58

All in due time after the elections. Busy here electing 80-90 years old.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby krishnan » 20 Mar 2014 20:00

But dont AWACS lets you look every where ??? 360 coverage , thats what PHALCON is capable of right

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby TSJones » 20 Mar 2014 20:55

krishnan wrote:But dont AWACS lets you look every where ??? 360 coverage , thats what PHALCON is capable of right


Yes awacs is 360. However it is highly doubtful it can cover an entire ocean. I would think the plane itself just can't generate enough power for the radar. However that is guessing on my part.

For example the US has a radar that covers the entire north Atlantic located at Cape Cod, MA. It is huge and there is all kinds of electricity to power the radar.

So I would say that AWACS is used for more regional concerns and quite frankly the southern Indian ocean just doesn't present any threat scenarios to require AWACS coverage. Its mighty lonely out there. I would be willing to make a bet that any gigantic land based radars on DG would be facing *north* unless its a 360 radar and its probably not near the stength of the radars guarding the US mainland due to the lack of threat scenarios. Further more if there is one at DG, I don't know about it. It's probably top secret double probation unlike the ones guarding the US mainland which I do know about. They are not top secret double probation if a mope like me can know about their locations and ranges.

Addendum: Well I just googled it. There is a deep space surveilance system at Diego Garcia. So they can probably have just about anything and everything there.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vipins » 20 Mar 2014 22:49

Nikhil T wrote:China wants its warships in Indian waters to search for plane

With the search for missing Malaysian plane turning to India's neighbourhood, China has sought permission for sending its four warships into the Indian waters, causing a major dilemma for the authorities.

India, which had suspended the search operations for last three days, resumed efforts on Wednesday to locate the aircraft in South Indian Ocean region.

China, whose 150 nationals are on board the aircraft, has sent a formal request to India to allow their warships including a salvage vessel and two frigates to enter Indian waters in the Andaman Sea to locate the plane, sources said.

The government, which has been taken by surprise, will take a decision the request after consulting the defence forces, particularly the Navy, the sources said.

The dilemma for the government is because its assets in the Arabian Sea are mainly to guard against China and these could get exposed if the Chinese warships are allowed in.

Meanwhile, Indian Navy and the Air Force along with Coast Guard ships resumed operations to locate the aircraft after keeping them suspended for three days awaiting instruction for looking into new areas.

A Navy official said the Naval and other assets have now been asked to look into the South Indian Ocean stretching south from Jakarta after the request from the Malaysian authorities.

India has deployed six warships and five maritime surveillance aircraft to locate the missing airliner with 239 passengers on board.

The assets deployed for the search operations include INS Saryu, INS Kumbhir and INS Kesari from the Navy and ICGS Kanaklata Barua and ICGS Bhikaji Cama.

The Navy has also deployed two of its P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft from INS Rajali in Tamil Nadu for locating the missing plane along with its Dornier maritime surveillance aircraft.

The IAF has also pressed into action its C-130J Super Hercules Special Operations aircraft fitted with modern surveillance capabilities to find the plane.

Image: Two Chinese surveillance ships which sailed between Philippines warship and Chinese fishing boats to prevent arrest of any fishermen in the Scarborough Shoal

India declines China's request to enter waters around Andaman and Nicobar Islands

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 21 Mar 2014 06:27

Funny, Aussies have a JORN OTH looking into IOR, was looking the other way.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 21 Mar 2014 08:04

BTW, CNN reports that china has a total of 9 ships in the area being searched by OZ. There are a total of 25 ships in that area. And, only 4 near A&N.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Mar 2014 10:06

>>There is a deep space surveilance system at Diego Garcia. So they can probably have just about anything and everything there.

being very pollution free, might even have NRO telescopes to spy on LEO/MEO sats. there was an article posted that NRO gifted NASA a couple of unused scopes that were found to better than hubble.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 21 Mar 2014 14:40

chackojoseph wrote:Funny, Aussies have a JORN OTH looking into IOR, was looking the other way.


their primary threat is from indonesia, the kiwis only threaten them in rugby and the penguins of antartica have not yet developed kamikaze mission profiles or the requisite range to target perth or sydney. looking west, there is an entire ocean before you get to madagascar, mozmbique or saffaland. they have no reason to be looking in that direction

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby parshuram » 21 Mar 2014 15:31


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby anand_sankar » 21 Mar 2014 17:09

YAY St Anthony ki Jai! :x

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indian-navy-chinese-nuclear-sub-indian-ocean/1/350498.html

This explains why all the fuss and hurry in getting the INS Vikramaditya to India. The Chinese were waiting to sniff it.

Rebuilding India's submarine capability is a WAR PRIORITY for the next government. Nothing short of that will do.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 23 Mar 2014 23:01

"Courtesy gesture" May the IN one day repeat the "courtesy"!
Well,that requires a new chief for the IN,but as we can see that Scamthony spends all his washing off the stains of umpteen defence scams ,that he has little time to bother about a chief of the IN when more important matters like his dhoti-shining-white mission in life must not be disturbed.

The issue of acquiring subs asap,what kind and from where have already been debated ad nauseum on BRF. This must be the top priority of the new dispesnation,as has just been said in the above post,"on a war footing".

Interestingly,the Chinese are using 2 IL-76s for the SAR search going on for the missing MH aircraft.The Oz Orions have limited time on station despite their good range,but what would've been ideal was for the IN's TU-142 Bears to have joined the search.They can fly to S.Africa and back without refuelling! Their range is unmatched ,far more than our P-8Is.There was an attempt during the CW to use the IL-76 platform for ASW/maritime surveillance.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Will » 24 Mar 2014 02:12

Well report today that the Election Commission has given the go ahead to the govt to appoint a navy chief. So hopefully soon.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_27862 » 24 Mar 2014 10:37

Philip wrote:
Interestingly,the Chinese are using 2 IL-76s for the SAR search going on for the missing MH aircraft.The Oz Orions have limited time on station despite their good range,but what would've been ideal was for the IN's TU-142 Bears to have joined the search.They can fly to S.Africa and back without refuelling! Their range is unmatched ,far more than our P-8Is.There was an attempt during the CW to use the IL-76 platform for ASW/maritime surveillance.


Two reasons here -

1. Navy has a chance to test the sensor suite on the P-8I in a demanding operational scenarios. This mission may be seen as an ideal platform testing opportunity. Moreover a great opportunity to work with international crews and understand their operational paradigm.

2. It may also reflect the state of affairs (I hope I am wrong) on the sensor capabilities of the Bear. Maybe the avionics are lagging behind with times and beyond a certain propaganda value, actual usage may be limited. But yes, in terms of range, you cannot beat the Tupalov.

I also see the Chinese having a limited SAR capability with the IL76s, which again are fuel guzzlers.

But I sincerely hope these boys find the clue to resolving this issue.......

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 24 Mar 2014 16:25

The Bdears are ideal for long time loitering and the task is spotting surface debris,not tracking a sub.I agree,sending the P-8Is on a virtual exercise.It could be used to monitor the emissions of the other ASW aircraft ,esp. the Oz Orions and PLAN Il-76s as well!

Here's a very disconcerting piece on the PLAN's N-sub activities in the IOR and danger to the IN and our second-strile capability.Courtesy India Today.
The good admiral is echoing what we've been saying on BR for ages.Get L&T into the act of byuilding N-subs (SSGNs) in their yards,leaving the SSBNs to be built at VIzag.That way two lines of N-subs will run in parallel.Until that time,acquire a couple more Akula-2s from Russia.Even with AIP,etc.,the second line of subs as envisaged by the IN will pale in comparison with an N-sub.whose endurance,range,speed and firepower will be hugely superior.The cost of a Scorpene non-AIP sub is coming to almost the cost of the Akula lease! We require hunter-killer AIP subs for the littorals to deal mainly with the PN's subs and stalk enemy subs ingressing into the IOR through the chokepoints.For true blue-water ops,we will have to depend upon our future N-subs.

China’s SSN deployment threatens India’s second-strike capability
By Vice Admiral (retd) KN Sushil


Admiral John Arbuthnot Fisher, British Admiral and First Sea Lord who rapidly built up the Royal Navy before the Great War, wrote nearly a century ago, "It is astounding to me, perfectly astounding, how the very best amongst us fail to realize the vast impending revolution in Naval warfare and Naval strategy that the submarine will accomplish.”

Nearly a century later, the most enthusiastic proponents of his words are located in our part of the world. Reports of Chinese submarines venturing into the Indian Ocean seem to indicate they are getting uncomfortably close. So what? Surely if the Chinese have nuclear submarines, the Indian Ocean is obviously one of the Oceans where they can logically be expected to operate. Many among us would like to deny this, believing that the Chinese are still stuck with technology issues that preclude such a possibility. While we in India are still struggling to put our first “indigenous “ nuclear submarine to sea, we would like to extend our own inabilities and inefficiencies to the Chinese – therefore they cannot deploy. Much like the US admiral who dismissed submarines in the late 19th century, ‘The Holland boats are interesting novelties which appeal to the non-professional mind, which is apt to invest them with remarkable properties they do not posses”

In addition to the SSBNs the Chinese have a robust SSN and conventional submarine building programme. Their 091, 093 and 095 SSN programmes have turned out about eight submarines in the past four decades. This is sufficient to master the adopted technology and fix glitches in the design (possibly with external assistance). The very fact that the Chinese have built greater number of submarines and operated them means their technical expertise and operating experience is substantially greater than ours. Add to this the Chinese capability of deploying 1000 km range tube launched cruise missiles and other shorter range missiles and torpedoes.

A Chinese SSN operating in the Bay of Bengal or the Arabian Sea can pose a substantial threat to our Navy.

The ability of the Vikramaditya Carrier Battle Group to establish and sustain sea control even in our own backyard will be seriously challenged. Anybody with elementary knowledge of naval tactics can figure out the clear and present danger that a SSN with missile and torpedoes present. In addition the SSNs can mark our SSBNs which may have to transit to the South China Sea, compromising our assured second strike capability. There are at least three broad areas we would need to rapidly build up:

a)Submarines. We need to have adequate force levels of SSNs and SSBNs if credible minimum deterrence under the averred policy of ‘No First Use’ (NFU) is to have any credibility at all. In order to be able to deploy SSNs and SSBNs we need to develop the ability to design and construct these submarines in India. We wasted whatever little experience we had had in submarine construction by in-advisedly and prematurely shutting down the HDW programme after commissioning INS Shankul in 1994. We started our learning process all over again with the Scorpene programme in 2005, and the manner in which it is progressing, we seem to be slow learners. Instead of consolidating our skills and developing the industrial base required to sustain submarine building we seen to be intent upon diversifying the submarine production lines. The sad truth is that our conventional submarine production capability, which could have provided substantial support to indigenous SSN and SSBN building, is nonexistent. If we have to deter the Chinese we need to be able to deploy at least 6 -8 SSNs and a number of SSBNs depending on their weapons capability.

b) Surveillance and Reconnaissance. The main stay of airborne ASW surveillance was based on the IL38s and the TU142s obtained from the Russians. It took the Navy many years to convince the government of the need to move away from Russian technology especially with regard to ASW and C4I issues. The induction of the P8Is may bring in a qualitative jump in our air ASW capability. While surveillance efficiency may have improved, the problem that the exploitable vastness of the Bay of Bengal and the Arabian Sea still pose great challenges in the initial detection of submarines. Initial detection is always the vital first step in ASW.

c) Strategic ASW. In order to be able to improve the probability of detection of submarines we need to have sustained surveillance efforts both in the spatial and temporal domains. The only cost effective method is the deployment of sea bed arrays to augment air borne ASW. Though NPOL have worked on this programme it has so not reached the deployable stage. So is the case with the indigenous long range sonobuoy and Nagin towed array systems.

We are nowhere close to mastering crucial technology areas of submarine design and construction and the development of strategic ASW systems. We are still struggling to send the Arihant to sea. The indigenous conventional submarine building programme is in a limbo- with the delays in the Scorpene programme and the Hamletitude in decision making on the Project 75i. There are no visible signs of an SSN construction programme.

In the world of strategic deterrence , credibility is established only by capability and reinforced by posture and resolve. If we do not have capability there can be no deterrence. If we do not have the capability to challenge or riposte we will become so fearsome of the enemy capability that we will have no bargaining chips to negotiate. We will become self deterred by our incapacity. A Nuclear submarine poses a considerable threat. A few of them can cut off our lines of communication to our island territories and place at risk critical targets which lie within 800 kms of the coast.

The immediate need is to create capability to give credence to our policy. It was envisioned that the submarine building capability would be achieved through the “consortium approach by a web of public-private partnership.” This web of capability building has so far remained knotted in the confused web of decision making. The MoDs priority in trying to keep PSU and defence shipyards afloat appears to be at cross purposes the requirement establish, consolidate and imbibe submarine design and construction capability.
(the author is a veteran submariner and former Commander-in-chief Southern Naval Command)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 25 Mar 2014 16:19


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 26 Mar 2014 04:32

DRDO developing onboard equipment monitoring system for submarines

A good number of data points:

At a time when serviceability of submarines operated by the Indian Navy has come under scrutiny, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is said to be developing a system to carry out structured health monitoring of the under-development nuclear submarines and future conventional submarines of the Navy.

Condition monitoring is critical to forestalling breakdown, as it works on the philosophy of predictive (prognosis-driven) maintenance. Constant health monitoring will maximise asset availability besides extending its service life. Such a system, integrated into the very design of submarines, has been installed on the first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant, V. Bhujanga Rao, DRDO director general (naval systems and materials) told The Hindu during an interaction at Kochi recently.

Indian Navy’s conventional submarines — Kilo-class and HDWs — do not have fixed, on-board health monitoring systems that alert technicians ashore to sub-par performance of equipment and systems, signalling potential breakdown.

Health of these submarines is checked periodically using portable monitoring systems comprising a network of sensors, said sources. Such checks are only possible when the submarine is available at harbour. However, all surface ships of the Navy sport such systems, which hold the key to their durability and extended serviceability.

“There’s a laid down inspection schedule for all vessels. For instance, norms suggest that pumps and motors are to be health-checked every six months while propulsion systems need a through inspection every quarter, added sources.

Mr. Rao said condition monitoring systems are extensively used in civil aviation, with technicians on ground receiving forecast on performance of on board systems via data link which helps them swiftly take corrective measures once the aircraft touches down.

The DRDO project is jointly executed by several naval and aeronautical labs and research institutions, with the Naval Science and Technology Laboratory in Visakhapatnam and Aeronautical Development Agency in Bangalore in the lead. The first Indian fighter jet LCA Tejas doesn’t have an on board conditioning monitoring system, but the plan is to have such a system for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), both under development.

Citing the complexity of such a system, Mr. Rao said at least 800 sensors are needed to monitor the gas turbine that’s being developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment, another DRDO facility.

The system being put on board the nuclear submarines will constantly keep a tab on the performance of each and every system and equipment, including critical auxiliary equipment.

On the air independent propulsion (AIP) system, which will considerably enhance the underwater endurance of conventional diesel-electric submarines, Mr. Rao said talks are under way with French firm DCNS to install the DRDO-developed AIP based on hydrogen fuel cell on the last Scorpene submarine built at Mazagaon Dock under the Navy’s Project 75.

Our technology is proven on a land-based prototype. A submarine-based prototype plug weighing nearly 300 tonnes is now being worked on. The French MESMA AIP being offered for the Scorpenes is an old system with a steam turbine,” he said. The DRDO AIP can be reconfigured for the second line of future conventional submarines under P75 I as well, he added

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Mar 2014 04:40

NRao, Thats awesome news about the AIP for the last Scorpene based on DRDO developed Hydrogen fuel cell!!!

The stuff about HMS is also called smart sensors etc.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 26 Mar 2014 04:47

I have been saying this for some time now; India has built a critical mass, or at least they are close to it. And, IMVVHO, this will snow ball and really nothing (but a politician) will stop it.

BTW, a little more PR: viewtopic.php?p=1616156#p1616156


BTW, that little detail about 800 sensors for the gas turbine should also tell us something. :wink:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 26 Mar 2014 18:21

Navy setbacks show defence challenges facing next Indian government
Reuters
By Sruthi Gottipati March 25, 2014
Ships and submarines belonging to the Indian Navy are seen docked at the naval dockyard in Mumbai February …

By Sruthi Gottipati

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - For a country aspiring to be a modern military power in a volatile region, a sequence of fatal accidents aboard its submarines has demonstrated why India's next government needs to straighten out its defence priorities.

The resignation of the naval chief of staff, weeks before a general election, reveals just how far the outgoing government's failure to equip its forces has eroded the trust of top commanders.

Admiral D.K. Joshi, 59, quit on February 26, the same day that two officers were killed by smoke that engulfed a part of the INS Sindhuratna. The Soviet-built Kilo class submarine was commissioned in 1988 and, officers say, should have been scrapped long ago.

Joshi took "moral responsibility" for a series of recent operational incidents, the government said when it accepted his resignation, but he has not commented since.

"It's a culmination of frustration in the navy that Admiral Joshi represented," said Bharat Karnad, a senior fellow in national security studies at the Centre for Policy Research, explaining the admiral's resignation.

"The chief's patience just snapped."

Seven months earlier, a dockside blast in Mumbai killed 18 submariners on board the INS Sindhurakshak.

One naval officer, who requested anonymity, described the danger of using worn-out equipment so prone to failure as being like "treading on a minefield".

Defence procurement has been haunted by the 1980s bribery scandal linked to an artillery order from Sweden's Bofors, that helped bring down the government of then prime minister Rajiv Gandhi, whose Congress party has held power since 2004.

Allegations of bribery also lay behind India's cancellation of a 560 million euro ($770 million) helicopter deal with AgustaWestland in January. The government said it did not believe the Anglo-Italian firm's denial it paid bribes to win the order.

One former senior submariner describes a gridlock in which bureaucrats make "observations" and note their "reservations", but make no decisions to buy or replace equipment for fear of being implicated in corruption scandals.

"No one wants to touch the damn thing," he said, noting that delays also cause procurement costs to escalate.

In one example, a contract was agreed for six Scorpene class diesel-electric submarines to be built in Mumbai at a cost of 188 billion Indian rupees ($3 billion), for delivery in 2012.

The subs, based on a design by France's DCNS, will now cost 25 percent more and will not start to enter service until 2015, due to what the defence ministry has called "initial teething problems in absorption of new technology".

Although delays aren't unusual in defence contracts around the world, India's defence ministry has been particularly tardy.

Between 2005 and 2010, for instance, 113 of 152 naval refits at state-owned dockyards under the defence ministry were completed within an accumulated delay of 23.6 years, said Rahul Bedi, an IHS analyst.

It has also been slow to sign new contracts. The navy's plea to Defence Minister A.K. Antony over the past four years to dispatch a global tender for six more submarines, in addition to those designed by DCNS, has largely been ignored, said Bedi.

India can ill-afford indecision and delay, given the potential threat from nuclear-armed rivals - a rising China and an unstable Pakistan - and a region facing uncertainty as U.S. forces pull out of Afghanistan.

DEFENDING SPENDING

While the ruling Congress party faces defeat in the five-week general election that starts on April 7, opposition challenger Narendra Modi is playing the national security card in his bid to lead India's 1.2 billion people.

"(The) government has been absolutely lax in securing Indian borders," the Hindu nationalist leader has told his 3.5 million followers on Twitter.

The navy's accidents has provided Modi's Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) ammunition to attack a defence minister who was branded the "worst ever" by one retired rear admiral.

Modi has floated plans to open up India's defence industry to reduce the country's reliance on arms imports - a strategy that has promise but faces resistance from vested state interests, according to veteran commentator John Elliott.

"Modi does look as though he will push the involvement of the private sector, and assuming he puts in a competent minister he can start to shake things up," said Elliott, whose new book 'Implosion' takes a critical view of a decade of Congress rule.

Still the world's largest arms importer, India has made slow progress in building its own arms industry. Once reliant on Soviet weaponry, it is now the top export market for U.S. arms.

There have been some native triumphs, including getting the reactor on India's first indigenous nuclear submarine operational last year.

But, India's defence budget, at $46 billion last year, was a third of China's, estimates consultancy IHS.

In February, Antony delayed an order for French fighter jets, saying his annual capital budget was exhausted.

Yet Finance Minister P. Chidambaram has brushed aside funding concerns: "I sincerely hope that the defence forces will learn a lesson and make sure that the money allocated to them is spent more wisely and more efficiently on essential matters."

(Writing by Sruthi Gottipati; Editing by Douglas Busvine and Simon Cameron-Moore)

nits
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nits » 28 Mar 2014 11:28

Got below pieces as a forward; not sure how authentic it is but one of conspiracy throry on Missing Malyasian Plane and role of US and China in it... Again i don't vouch for its authencity but worth a read...


The American is withdrawing from the Afghanistan, one of their command and control system (used for controlling the pilotless drones) was hijacked by the Talebans when the American transport convoy was moving down from one of the hill top bases. The Talebans ambushed the convoy and killed 2 American Seal personnel, seized the equipment/weapons, including the command and control system which weighed about 20 tons and packed into 6 crates. This happened about a month ago in Feb 2014.

What the Talebans want is money. They want to sell the system to the Russian or the Chinese. The Russian is too busy in Ukraine. The Chinese are hungry for the system's technology. Just imagine if the Chinese master the technology behind the command and control system, all the American drones will become useless. So the Chinese sent 8 top defense scientists to check the system and agreed to pay millions for it.

Sometime in early Mar 2014, the 8 scientists and the 6 crates made their way to Malaysia, thinking that it was the best covert way to avoid detection. The cargo was then kept in the Embassy under diplomatic protection. Meanwhile the American has engaged the assistance of Israeli intelligence, and together they are determined to intercept and recapture the cargo.

The Chinese calculated that it will be safe to transport it via civilian aircraft so as to avoid suspicion. After all the direct flight from KL to Beijing takes only 4 and half hours, and the American will not hijack or harm the civilian. So MH370 is the perfect carrier.There are 5 American and Israeli agents onboard who are familiar with Boeing operation. The 2 "Iranians" with stolen passports could be among them.

When MH370 is about to leave the Malaysian air space and reporting to Vietnamese air control, one American AWAC jammed their signal, disabled the pilot control system and switched over to remote control mode. That was when the plane suddenly lost altitude momentarily.

How the AWAC can do it ? Remember 911 incident ? After the 911 incident, all Boeing aircraft (and possibly all Airbus) are installed with remote control system to counter terrorist hijacking. Since then all the Boeing could be remote controlled by ground control tower. The same remote control system used to control the pilotless spy aircraft and drones. :rotfl:

The 5 American/Israeli agents soon took over the plane, switched off the transponder and other communication system, changed course and flew westwards. They dare not fly east to Philippines or Guam because the whole South China Sea air space was covered by Chinese surveillance radar and satellite.

The Malaysian, Thai and Indian military radars actually detected the unidentified aircraft but did not react professionally.The plane flew over North Sumatra, Anambas, South India and then landed at Maldives (some villagers saw the aircraft landing), refuelled and continued its flight to Garcia Deigo, the American Air Base in the middle of Indian Ocean. The cargo and the black box were removed. The passengers were silenced via natural means, lack of oxygen. They believe only dead person will not talk. The MH370 with dead passengers were air borne again via remote control and crashed into South Indian Ocean, make it to believe that the plane eventually ran out of fuel and crashed, and blame the defiant captain and copilot.

The American has put up a good show. First diverting all the attention and search effort in the South China Sea while the plane made their way to Indian Ocean. Then they came out with some conflicting statement and evidence to confuse the world. The Australian is the co-actor.
The amount of effort put up by China, in terms of the number of search aircraft, ships and satellites, searching first the South China Sea, then the Malacca Straits and the Indian Ocean is unprecedented. This showed that the China is very concerned, not so much because of the many Chinese civilian passengers, but mainly the high value cargo and its 8 top defense scientists.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sid » 28 Mar 2014 14:24

^^
nice fun read.

This way or that way, this plane did not meet its end in a logical manner. In today's time and technology level, its hard to believe this plane flew past all the air surveillance equipment (even Australian) and crashed somewhere it can hardly reach due to its fuel range.

member_28526
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_28526 » 29 Mar 2014 09:07

For all our pretensions and aspirations, we did poorly. this had been an opportunity to flaunt our blue water capability. Sure it was inevitable with the shortage of warships vis the forward naval bases.
A lesson to be learnt and prepared for.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby TSJones » 29 Mar 2014 09:42

Sid wrote:^^
nice fun read.

This way or that way, this plane did not meet its end in a logical manner. In today's time and technology level, its hard to believe this plane flew past all the air surveillance equipment (even Australian) and crashed somewhere it can hardly reach due to its fuel range.


I would point out that the south Indian Ocean has very little radar coverage? There ain't much there.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 29 Mar 2014 09:49

Vivek,

Eat your heart out.

That author made the Chinese lose millions - to the Taliban nonetheless, the high powered loot AND 8 top scientists, refuel a plane in the Maldives and visit DG!!!.

All in one post.

krishnan
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby krishnan » 29 Mar 2014 09:56

9/11 is itself a major conspiracy , till date no one knowns what happened , this could very well be like it

svinayak
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby svinayak » 29 Mar 2014 11:36

Philip wrote:
Modi has floated plans to open up India's defence industry to reduce the country's reliance on arms imports - a strategy that has promise but faces resistance from vested state interests, according to veteran commentator John Elliott.

"Modi does look as though he will push the involvement of the private sector, and assuming he puts in a competent minister he can start to shake things up," said Elliott, whose new book 'Implosion' takes a critical view of a decade of Congress rule.

Such foreign people are dangerous. They create damage with thie views

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Paul » 02 Apr 2014 16:17

Far from the public glare and limelight, the navy secures the sea lanes and ensures free flow of maritime traffic using a plethora of procedures, operations, equipment and platforms. Signs of greatness of a navy are reflected by its ability to withstand deployment strains and stresses at far off distances from its shores and the preparedness it maintains to pack a punch with total surprise. For the Indian Navy, the seafaring capability is provided by its surface combatants while an element of stealth in its striking prowess is held by its sub-surface fleet of submarines the pride of which is the recent addition — the nuclear powered INS Arihant.

The moment INS Arihant — the killer of the enemy — was launched into the waters off the Visakhapatnam harbour in the eastern coast on July 26, 2009, India entered a select list of six nations after US, Russia, UK, France and China to design and built a nuclear powered submarine. The occasion coincided with the 10th anniversary of the Kargil War echoing the fact that eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. The vigilance which INS Arihant will maintain after it becomes operational in another two years time will be in the depths of the seas and oceans remaining unnoticed yet holding one the deadliest offensive packs.

Submarines are silent killers, always on the prowl but often stay out of reach of the common detection and attack systems. While on operational deployment submarines remain at specified depths for long periods extended to weeks and months and maintain little contact with the shore except while snorkelling and surfacing out for replenishments. Most submarines hunt for targets with torpedoes and missiles collecting intelligence using sonar and periscope while adopting either diesel-electric or nuclear propulsion.

A conventional submarine (SS) usually powered by diesel motors run on batteries when underneath to maintain silence. When the batteries exhaust these vessels need to surface for recharging and that way reveal their existence. The diesel electric submarines also generate carbon dioxide which periodically needs to be discharged from the boat to maintain safety for which the vessel needs to come out of water.

These are certain limitations of the conventional diesel electric submarine. It makes them vulnerable to attack for which they are not suitable for strategic assignments and deployments. This role of late has gradually been reserved especially for the elusive nuclear powered submarine — an evolution with many of the shortcomings of its diesel propelled cousins removed.

Nuclear powered submarines that way are extraordinary maritime marvels. A navy that possesses it concentrates most of its offensive capability on these vessels for use to alter courses of hostile exchanges. This is a legacy of the cold war era but now has obtained acceptance to the extent that it is now a standard procedure of engagements.

A nuclear powered attack submarine (SSN) equipped with an array of sensors and weapons is designed as a hunter/killer platform used to seek, track and destroy hostile submarines and warships and other maritime assets, carry out attacks on surface targets deep inside the shore, deploy special forces and act as a reconnaissance unit and escort to task forces to pre-empt aggression. These assortment of roles assigned to the SSN is primarily due to its endurance, greater depth and higher speeds generated which the Indian Navy is now preparing to possess by readying INS Arihant for fulfilling its operational obligations and extending it as a part of a nuclear triad.

The nuclear triad is a Army-Air Force-Navy combined three dimensional framework with two segments presently operational. It is formed by land-based nuclear warhead carrying ballistic missiles deployed in fixed silos or on road/rail mobile units and combat aircraft. Its third arm is to retain the last resort offensive capability and is conceptualized for deployment on board nuclear submarines.

This triad is essential for developing a credible nuclear deterrence with no first strike policy but holding back an undetectable retaliatory capability inform of an underwater mobile platform carrying ballistic missiles. The INS Arihant is intended for developing such a capability for which its propulsion holds the key. The propulsion system of the INS Arihant is constituted by a miniaturized 85 MW pressurized water reactor (PWR) using highly enriched uranium as fuel and light water as coolant.

The reactor developed by Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) allows the 6,000 ton INS Arihant to develop an underwater speed of 24 knots and a surface speed of about 15 knots. The propulsion thus generated is clean, less noisy at optimum speeds and will enable the INS Arihant to stay submerged for long durations, say for months. The inhouse design and fuel processing of the PWR used in the INS Arihant has laid the foundation to built bigger and complex propulsion systems for fitting into subsequent vessels of similar type a total of five is slotted to join the Indian Navy within a decade.

The INS Arihant will mount 95 crew members, 12 vertical lunch tubes to fire the already tested K-15 Sagarika sub-surface ballistic missile with a payload capacity of around 1 ton and a striking range of 750 km, torpedoes, tube launched cruise missiles and may even include the highly rated Indo-Russian Brahmos. The frame of the boat is designed using a special HY-80 steel used for submarine construction while the hull, made at Hazira, Gujarat by L&T in modules and assembled at Visakhapatnam, is made of titanium enabling it to dive to depths of around 500 metres. Innovative rubber acoustic tiles all over the body help to reduce the signature of the submarine which later may be replaced by non-reflective coatings to reduce sonar returns.

These make the INS Arihant stealthy by design and are likely to give nightmares to enemy warships and submarines though nothing about the shape and structure of the vessel has been released yet. As the Russians have been the chief consultants, one of their successful models — the Charlie II must have been adopted for the INS Arihant design. This is a strong possibility due to the fact that the Charlie II which Indian Navy had operated for three years under lease is 102 m long while INS Arihant is 112 m due to the addition of 12 missiles tubes. Both have a 10 m diameter with the Charlie II mounting a 109 MW reactor while the INS Arihant has a 85 MW model.

Over and above its close resemblance to the Russian Charlie II, the INS Arihant incorporates several advanced features acquired from the knowledge of operation and construction of the German HDW 209 1500, houses an network centric combat management system and an assortment of sophisticated communication equipment. The INS Arihant will be commissioned into the Indian Navy after a series of trials called sea and harbour acceptance tests which will be followed by weapons firing to be completed in nearly two years. In this phase several of the shortcomings of the INS Arihant will be removed to a large extent.

Its most noticeable drawback is its submerged speed. At 24 knots it will be slow to escape a counter attack, say from a constituent warship of an enemy battle-group. This speed should ideally be around 30 knots — a limit which will perhaps be attained by the remaining four planned sister boats.

The 750 km range of its primary attack weapon Sagarika makes INS Arihant suitable for tactical deployments though the tubes that hold these missiles can also be used for a longer range weapon like the planned submarine launched Agni III SL. But this design will be available only after another three to four years. Without a missile of over 2,000 km range, INS Arihant will not be able to fulfil the said role of the hidden segment of the nuclear triad.

These shortcomings are likely to be addressed and removed by the time the vessels joins Indian Navy as the most potent weapon system. Even without a declared strategic role, INS Arihant due to the very nature of its design and propulsion elevates the Indian Navy altogether to a different league. The confidence and the capability which INS Arihant has offered to the designers of the country will enable the process to gain momentum to design more superior underwater vessels as swords lurking stealthily in the depths of the seas and oceans always prepared to make the last annihilating attack.

Kandarpa Kumar Sarma


http://www.assamtribune.com/oct1009/horizon2.html


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