chetak wrote:You haven't addressed my question about firewalling. I would appreciate an answer.
Why? So that we can give gyaan on an open forum about what organization does what? Funny, on the one hand below you claim you don't want to talk on an "open forum" after cursing away at one organization all the while, now you wish to pursue this line of enquiry.
Fact is you made some really dodgy claims one of which was that ISRO does local sourcing, DRDO doesnt and neither does the latter have plans to do so. Latter is plain wrong since many folks do have a fair amount of data on both organizations & the amount of effort they go to, to source locally. Of course, both don't have the same challenges - ISRO for instance can make many design choices without its users complaining about system internals since they don't maintain ISRO systems, but then that's exactly the point about how different both orgs are in terms of their overall ecosystem. The amount of differences are so staggering that one can't even take this sort of comparison seriously.
Now, I have no interest in detailing the amount of information available, even publicly, on this very forum about how mistaken your statements were, suffice to say there are folks who dispassionately look at these issues & they know for a fact what Indian industrial capability is & how it spans organizations across India. Lets just leave it at that.
I don't go to have tea with these fellows. I consult professionally for a lot of them. Both organisations have design and industrial capabilities separated by several worlds. One sets standards and the other seems confused by them. One retains live wires with practiced ease while the other lets go of it's live wires without a clue of how to retain them.
Yet you make errors about what each organization sources & how similar their design & industrial capabilities are. Its in nobody's interest, least of all the organizations in question, that I sit down & document even open source information about who supplies what, but nor is it some big secret either & the fact that this is some sort of surprise to you (let alone the claims that it doesn't exist) speaks for itself.
As regards "letting go of live wires", yes, perhaps its all the live wires who were let go because of which India today has made rapid strides in electronics & missile tech to the degree that it has; in several areas actually ISRO is not even present (and why would it be, it has no interest in maintaining or developing complex systems for war that invariably involve completely different subsystems & systems ISRO has not even ventured into).
Sorry but you are just comparing apples to oranges & making a complete mess of it as well.
Simply put, ISRO is an organization which works to its own plan set by stakeholders which don't encompass the breadth that DRDO has to work towards (namely the services) & nor does it have to go for ambitious overreach (India won't lose a war if ISRO's MK1 space launcher is behind some "out there international standard" somehow procured by the PRC or Pak).
If objective evaluations are undertaken, both ISRO & DRDO actually suffer from similar challenges in technology & manpower, with an edge to ISRO because of its relative autonomy under the DOS & remuneration structures which DRDO & other Govt orgs have been asking GOI for. But which have remained pending for quite a while.
Both organizations also face similar challenges in leveraging what Indian industry (private and public) can provide to meet their ambitious missions. Lets just leave it at that.
I know exactly TO WHOM these companies sell and exactly FROM WHOM they buy, how much of what and use where and in which product, using which process and shipped when. I see detailed inspection reports, rework done, complaints by customers and accolades and often end up training the people who work. If you have anything but conjectures to add then please do so.
I have far more than conjecture & have been tracking these details for a long time.
As I said, I have no interest in beating any trumpet or cataloging details even if open source, given what Indian organizations have faced in the past, but I know fairly well about the amount of sourcing done by the organizations, their partners & the kind of work done as well. Heck, time was, one could even go to the detail of doing a LRU by LRU count of the efforts being made on programs purely based on public reports by the supplier organizations.
Unlike you though, my interest in the topic is purely dispassionate, without the need for pointed barbs at either organization since I understand their constraints.
I have seen very very few companies supplying both. It usually just one or the other for an overwhelming majority of 95-98 percent. Imported material commonality is less that 8-10 % Companies tend to specialize in the parts they make. Numbingly tedious inspection procedures make them specialize further.
I can count a dozen companies that supply to both offhand across a range of item types... Imported material commodity is not 8-10% but can go up to significantly more depending on the item being supplied, whether it is mechanical, avionics etc etc. At the end of the day, import choices are made on the basis of a) program funding b) indian industrial capability judged by TRLs. The combination of the two makes critical choices necessary.
I don't dislike any org but I have worked for one for several years to intimately know the systems and the processes and the motivation levels. I have seen senior jokers running away when meetings are called to review schedules and promised deliverables, leaving their juniors to take the flack. I have never seen such pliable ethics anywhere but there
The "but" says it all. I can merely do a simple scan of all your posts hitherto & your dislike speaks for itself, all your caveats apart.
Well, then please work across firms in the much vaunted Indian industry & I can assure you that you will see all sorts of folks good and bad. I am afraid your dislike of the one org is so overt and striking, that it prevents you from being objective.
Even now I despair for one and laud the other because the difference is like chalk and cheese. In the end as a deshbakth, I have pride and a stake in the success of both organisations..
Actually, the difference judged purely on outcomes is quite similar. Neither has exactly managed to meet overambitious targets thanks to both external constraints and their own issues. As I said, your bias has clouded your objectivity. Case in point - taking pleasure in even petty issues such as senior scientists of one org being sentenced to imprisonment for some bureaucratic wrangling! Its the kind of non news that the Indian media excels in yet...and please, lets not debate semantics about "what you meant" and so forth.. your likes/dislikes are your own & you are welcome to them. I am merely pointing out objectivity is shot in the process & that, quite frankly is what it is.
I will not put down anything further in an open forum. Many of my customers lurk on this forum. May be this can be a point of discussion in some local meet.
Boss, I am not asking you for details & nor am I on the look out for some "gossip". If you were truly bothered about "open forums", then we wouldn't be having this discussion either.
Let me just say that most of are old enough by now to see folks with their fixed views, let them have their say (it's a free country) but at the same time, bide our own counsel & make up our own minds based on objective data available via a variety of sources.
It kind of reminds me of the time that some us of had a very senior, respected gent from a certain service, frothing at the mouth about the LCA program and how "even the microchips in it were imported" - now, two options there. Either stand & debate the issue of making every microchip in India, or gracefully exit, given he had made his mind up, would refuse to acknowledge the reality even if it were presented to him & of course, we all did respect his achievements.
Much the same now. But it didn't make for a factual argument.