Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

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Karan M
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 Oct 2014 18:45

Sagar G wrote:
chetak wrote: One has painstakingly developed a complex and global supply chain over the years which it will not jeopardize and the other does not seem to care too much for such mundane pursuits


Ah yes all our strategic missiles are coming right out of the fairy dreams of ISRO scientists.


Common sense is apparently uncommon. India is not exactly a babe in the woods when it comes to developing technology or seeing who does what. Enough said.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 01 Oct 2014 18:53

Karan M wrote:Common sense is apparently uncommon.


Touche

Some khujli causing stuff for DRDO haters

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 Oct 2014 18:59

"mundane pursuits", "never to be seen" indeed. All the great folks who sanction us btw are dispassionate...as far as they are concerned, they have enough resources to see the reality for what it is. Whether it is a certain countrys missile hitting xK km away or a space mission which proves something quite parallel. Both give the NPA jihadis frowns and its only some of the local folks who carry on this quixotic attempt to drive a wedge between the orgs and draw far reaching conclusions.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Oct 2014 19:37

Karan M wrote:
chetak wrote:{quote="Karan M"}Sorty but above is pure junk. Both orgs patronize and source from the same suppliers and ISRO has also leveraged DRDO work and vice versa. Firewalling only goes to a certain extent in the aero industry.{/quote}

why aero industry??

I cover pretty much most of the aero industry in India for my rozi roti and I have never seen this.I cover PSUs, DRDOs and ISRO along with a majority of the big and small private players associated the aero industry


And yet you happen to be plain wrong. Like i said anyone reasonably informed would know there are many SMEs and private players, let alone public ones who happen to be working for both orgs and face similar challenges and quote much the same results when working for either. Suffice to say what you quoted about one focusing on local supply chain and other not was just bunk. You dislike one org, fine. Dispassionate analysis is another thing altogether. Many have interacted with far too many of these firms to understand the efforts both have put into local sourcing and how they segue together and that there are even common weaknesses in specific areas that relate to both directly related to Indian industrial capability, as there are strengths.

If ISRO and DRDO publicly maintain a separation to avoid being tarred by the NPA jihadis, thats fine, but one would have to be in full denial to distinguish artificially between the industrial capabilities that are represented by both orgs together.


You haven't addressed my question about firewalling. I would appreciate an answer.

I don't go to have tea with these fellows. I consult professionally for a lot of them. Both organisations have design and industrial capabilities separated by several worlds. One sets standards and the other seems confused by them. One retains live wires with practiced ease while the other lets go of it's live wires without a clue of how to retain them.

I know exactly TO WHOM these companies sell and exactly FROM WHOM they buy, how much of what and use where and in which product, using which process and shipped when. I see detailed inspection reports, rework done, complaints by customers and accolades and often end up training the people who work. If you have anything but conjectures to add then please do so.

I have seen very very few companies supplying both. It usually just one or the other for an overwhelming majority of 95-98 percent. Imported material commonality is less that 8-10 % Companies tend to specialize in the parts they make. Numbingly tedious inspection procedures make them specialize further.

I don't dislike any org but I have worked for one for several years to intimately know the systems and the processes and the motivation levels. I have seen senior jokers running away when meetings are called to review schedules and promised deliverables, leaving their juniors to take the flack. I have never seen such pliable ethics anywhere but there

Even now I despair for one and laud the other because the difference is like chalk and cheese.

In the end as a deshbakth, I have pride and a stake in the success of both organisations.

I will not put down anything further in an open forum. Many of my customers lurk on this forum. May be this can be a point of discussion in some local meet.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Oct 2014 19:48

Karan M wrote:
Sagar G wrote:{quote="chetak"} One has painstakingly developed a complex and global supply chain over the years which it will not jeopardize and the other does not seem to care too much for such mundane pursuits{/quote}

Ah yes all our strategic missiles are coming right out of the fairy dreams of ISRO scientists.


Common sense is apparently uncommon. India is not exactly a babe in the woods when it comes to developing technology or seeing who does what. Enough said.


I visit a small srilankan firm which makes a few high tech major aerospace products supplied directly to two major aerospace clients to be used directly on the aircraft and not as minor part of any subsystem or LRU. This is much more than is made by any repeat any player in India, be it big or small. There are many such firms in srilanka alone. Not even talking of malaysia or china where we also go

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Oct 2014 20:10

Karan M wrote:Sorry but above is just junk no offense intended
Both orgs patronize and source from the same suppliers and ISRO has also leveraged DRDO work and vice versa. Anybody even reasonably informed could quote line and verse and the only reason its not is because of obvious reasons. Claiming ISRO has local suppliers and others dont is similarly wrong. As matter of fact, other orgs in India have a wider footprint given the number of different programs and investment therein. Firewalling only goes to a certain extent in the aero industry and even the world knows it, where the same international firms supply to multiple orgs within India as well. Bias is all fine, but facts are a completely different matter altogether. As regards recognition, Agnis give India a xertain kind of recognition, whereas Mars missions give another. Suffice to say both kinds of recognition are needed in todays world. Soft and hard power in terms of tech prowess go together.


Claiming ISRO has local suppliers and others dont is similarly wrong.

Sorry, seemed to have missed this. Both have local as well as foreign suppliers. I never said that only one did.

One painstakingly develops, guides and nurtures it's suppliers while the other treats them as adversaries only.

Suppliers react very differently to such customers and look constantly for a way out

At mid management level, I have seen jokers who forcibly grab source code from helpless suppliers threatened into silence and present the very same as their original work during promotion boards. Height of deception.
Last edited by chetak on 01 Oct 2014 20:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 01 Oct 2014 20:13

On one hand we have an organization which has no demanding customer and neither it's products have any element of human involvement which provides you with breathing space in terms of risk that you can take w.r.t. the product it makes. Hence they can blow up in mid air their launcher if it deviates from it's intended path and no one will bat an eyelid for that. This important element is missed by most and hence the usual rant of "oh that other org is such a dirty poor bania onlee".

On the other hand we have an organization which has to work on demands made by others and "I repeat" made by others, fullfill them and still instead of having orders for the same gets asked to do more before the said product can be inducted.

Definitely chalk and cheese when the bar for one is already set so low where they can get away by failing to meet deadlines set by themselves and "I repeat" deadlines set by themselves then I don't see how we can start logically comparing one with the other. Let's see how much time our "gora equivalent chikna without any fault organization" takes to make a human safe flight capable machine when mother Russia has already hand held them w.r.t. that. For starters they have already pushed back date's which were doled out by them and "I repeat" doled out by them.

Can someone please point out to me the aeronautical greatness achieved by likes of Sri Lanka, Malaysia and China that we need to compete with them ??? Has the gleat panda aeronautical industry been able to come up with a full fly by wire yet ??? And I am not even asking about their stealing from everywhere and begging from mother Russia.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 01 Oct 2014 20:14

chetak wrote:One painstakingly develops, guides and nurtures it's suppliers while the other treats them as adversaries only.


:rotfl:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Oct 2014 20:21

Sagar G wrote:On one hand we have an organization which has no demanding customer and neither it's products have any element of human involvement which provides you with breathing space in terms of risk that you can take w.r.t. the product it makes. Hence they can blow up in mid air their launcher if it deviates from it's intended path and no one will bat an eyelid for that. This important element is missed by most and hence the usual rant of "oh that other org is such a dirty poor bania onlee".

On the other hand we have an organization which has to work on demands made by others and "I repeat" made by others, fullfill them and still instead of having orders for the same gets asked to do more before the said product can be inducted.

Definitely chalk and cheese when the bar for one is already set so low where they can get away by failing to meet deadlines set by themselves and "I repeat" deadlines set by themselves then I don't see how we can start logically comparing one with the other. Let's see how much time our "gora equivalent chikna without any fault organization" takes to make a human safe flight capable machine when mother Russia has already hand held them w.r.t. that. For starters they have already pushed back date's which were doled out by them and "I repeat" doled out by them.

Can someone please point out to me the aeronautical greatness achieved by likes of Sri Lanka, Malaysia and China that we need to compete with them ??? Has the gleat panda aeronautical industry been able to come up with a full fly by wire yet ??? And I am not even asking about their stealing from everywhere and begging from mother Russia.


Another warrior enters the arena and claims greatness by dissing ISRO??

Welcome!

The countries you have mentioned have manufacturing capabilities that NaMo dreams of for India. In the old days, they --lanka and malayasia machined centrifuge parts for AQ khan and the pakis assembled them from the parts made here

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 01 Oct 2014 20:26

chetak wrote:Another warrior enters the arena and claims greatness by dissing ISRO??


Only logical way to answer back a great warrior coming out from I don't know where or which part.

Welcome!

chetak wrote:The countries you have mentioned have manufacturing capabilities that NaMo dreams of for India. In the old days, they --lanka and malayasia machined centrifuge parts for AQ khan and the pakis assembled them from the parts made here


Oh now I get what you want to achieve for India. Good thought though why depend on others when we can help our enemy all by ourselves.

By the way who machined the centrifuge parts for our programme. Malaysia, Sri Lanka or did they come from Chinese nuclear wallmart ???

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Oct 2014 20:29

Sagar G wrote:On one hand we have an organization which has no demanding customer and neither it's products have any element of human involvement which provides you with breathing space in terms of risk that you can take w.r.t. the product it makes. Hence they can blow up in mid air their launcher if it deviates from it's intended path and no one will bat an eyelid for that. This important element is missed by most and hence the usual rant of "oh that other org is such a dirty poor bania onlee".

On the other hand we have an organization which has to work on demands made by others and "I repeat" made by others, fullfill them and still instead of having orders for the same gets asked to do more before the said product can be inducted.

Definitely chalk and cheese when the bar for one is already set so low where they can get away by failing to meet deadlines set by themselves and "I repeat" deadlines set by themselves then I don't see how we can start logically comparing one with the other. Let's see how much time our "gora equivalent chikna without any fault organization" takes to make a human safe flight capable machine when mother Russia has already hand held them w.r.t. that. For starters they have already pushed back date's which were doled out by them and "I repeat" doled out by them.

Can someone please point out to me the aeronautical greatness achieved by likes of Sri Lanka, Malaysia and China that we need to compete with them ??? Has the gleat panda aeronautical industry been able to come up with a full fly by wire yet ??? And I am not even asking about their stealing from everywhere and begging from mother Russia.


Demanding customers or scared and afraid to trust customers?? SARAS and the idly radome avro was what ?? friendly fire??

And I am not even asking about their stealing from everywhere and begging from mother Russia.
Really!! Are we not doing this very thing unsuccessfully?? or you don't know??

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Oct 2014 20:33

Sagar G wrote:
chetak wrote:Another warrior enters the arena and claims greatness by dissing ISRO??


Only logical way to answer back a great warrior coming out from I don't know where or which part.

Welcome!

chetak wrote:The countries you have mentioned have manufacturing capabilities that NaMo dreams of for India. In the old days, they --lanka and malayasia machined centrifuge parts for AQ khan and the pakis assembled them from the parts made here


Oh now I get what you want to achieve for India. Good thought though why depend on others when we can help our enemy all by ourselves.

By the way who machined the centrifuge parts for our programme. Malaysia, Sri Lanka or did they come from Chinese nuclear wallmart ???


You asked what they had and I told you. It is not a point of debate but of fact.

Ask in your office who machined the Indian centrifuge parts. The answer may surprise you.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 01 Oct 2014 20:34

chetak wrote:Demanding customers or scared and afraid to trust customers?? SARAS and the idly radome avro was what ?? friendly fire??


Whose programme SARAS is ??? Lack of facts ??? Your Avro rant only reinforces the fact that I stated earlier. They can blow up their vehicles and no body will bat an eyelid for that.

chetak wrote:Really!! Are we not doing this very thing unsuccessfully?? or you don't know??


Oh please walking talking encyclopaedia of Indian R&D history please share no. Enough with all your below the belt unverifiable comments.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 01 Oct 2014 20:35

HSL Vizag is building a 10K Tonne ship for the IN, this is sort of hush-hush... Livefist carries a report on this, see more info @ http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/10/revealed-navy-warship-that-could-save.html.
It is being built at a break neck speed (from GE images), the target date is Oct 2015, it is speculated to be a deep see surveillance vessel or OSS (Ocean surveillance Ship). I remember Alcock Ashdown building the Makar class surveillance ships, but they are puny @ 500T. Keel seems to have been laid only in June 2014.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 01 Oct 2014 20:36

chetak wrote:You asked what they had and I told you. It is not a point of debate but of fact.


What I stated is also fact your inability to get them is your problem not mine.

chetak wrote:Ask in your office who machined the Indian centrifuge parts. The answer may surprise you.


Please state it hear only I doubt I have anybody so much knowledgeable in my aafiss aafiss unlike his highness.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Oct 2014 20:38

Sagar G wrote:
chetak wrote:Another warrior enters the arena and claims greatness by dissing ISRO??


Only logical way to answer back a great warrior coming out from I don't know where or which part.

Welcome!

chetak wrote:The countries you have mentioned have manufacturing capabilities that NaMo dreams of for India. In the old days, they --lanka and malayasia machined centrifuge parts for AQ khan and the pakis assembled them from the parts made here


Oh now I get what you want to achieve for India. Good thought though why depend on others when we can help our enemy all by ourselves.

By the way who machined the centrifuge parts for our programme. Malaysia, Sri Lanka or did they come from Chinese nuclear wallmart ???


The individual suppliers did not know what the whole machine was about. Each unquestioningly did his small part as per drawings given to them without knowing that others were also working. This is how companies get their work done anywhere or is that too much for you to understand??

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 01 Oct 2014 20:40

chetak wrote:The individual suppliers did not know what the whole machine was about. Each unquestioningly did his small part as per drawings given to them without knowing that others were also working. This is how companies get their work done anywhere or is that too much for you to understand??


What brain you have AMAZING YAAR !!!! Now who would have though that things are done like this onlee. BRILLIANT Bharat Ratna deserving candidate right here.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Oct 2014 20:41

Sagar G wrote:
chetak wrote:You asked what they had and I told you. It is not a point of debate but of fact.


What I stated is also fact your inability to get them is your problem not mine.

chetak wrote:Ask in your office who machined the Indian centrifuge parts. The answer may surprise you.


Please state it hear only I doubt I have anybody so much knowledgeable in my aafiss aafiss unlike his highness.


Yes sir, I know. Sadly, I met many like you during my days there. Legends in their own minds. Output zero.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 01 Oct 2014 20:44

chetak wrote:Yes sir, I know. Sadly, I met many like you during my days there. Legends in their own minds. Output zero.


But not to worry fellow BRFites. Have no fear chetak is here !!!! Our lord and saviour.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Oct 2014 20:45

Sagar G wrote:
chetak wrote:The individual suppliers did not know what the whole machine was about. Each unquestioningly did his small part as per drawings given to them without knowing that others were also working. This is how companies get their work done anywhere or is that too much for you to understand??


What brain you have AMAZING YAAR !!!! Now who would have though that things are done like this onlee. BRILLIANT Bharat Ratna deserving candidate right here.


Cease and desist old chap. Not to get personal onlee. Don't raise BP.

Remember the office motto, No tension , full pension. Got to serve out that many years yet or pension truncated to prorata rate. cool down.

or are you sitting at home after bunking some important meeting??
Last edited by chetak on 01 Oct 2014 20:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 01 Oct 2014 20:47

chetak wrote:Cease and desist old chap. Not to get personal onlee. Don't raise BP.


Follow your own advice dear friend !!!!

chetak wrote:Remember the office motto, No tension , full pension. Got to serve out that many years yet or pension truncated to prorata rate. cool down.


Again what Sherlockian levels of deductive skills. I am floored !!!!!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Oct 2014 20:49

Sagar G wrote:
chetak wrote:Cease and desist old chap. Not to get personal onlee. Don't raise BP.


Follow your own advice dear friend !!!!

chetak wrote:Remember the office motto, No tension , full pension. Got to serve out that many years yet or pension truncated to prorata rate. cool down.


Again what Sherlockian levels of deductive skills. I am floored !!!!!


Yoga master?? sitting on floor onlee?? must be practicing during working hours, no?? Good solid gobermint job!!

Unbreakable rice plate, what?? like the chinee onlee say
Last edited by chetak on 01 Oct 2014 20:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 01 Oct 2014 20:51

chetak wrote:Yoga master?? sitting on floor onlee?? must be practicing during working hours, no??


Mehhhh !!! Jedi master am I.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Oct 2014 20:53

Sagar G wrote:
chetak wrote:Yoga master?? sitting on floor onlee?? must be practicing during working hours, no??


Mehhhh !!! Jedi master am I.


I know.

Go Home master.

Go in peace.

Good bye, old friend. May the Force be with you.
Last edited by chetak on 01 Oct 2014 20:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 01 Oct 2014 20:55

chetak wrote:I know.

Go Home master.

Go in peace


Panda, I am at peace now bring something to eat.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 01 Oct 2014 20:58

Sagar G wrote:
chetak wrote:I know.

Go Home master.

Go in peace


Panda, I am at peace now bring something to eat.


panda having mucho report writing yet. Another day perhaps

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 01 Oct 2014 20:59

:(( :(( :((

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 01 Oct 2014 22:51

Sagar and chetak, can you take this discussion elsewhere? we are deviating from a discussion on IN matters.
BR Admins: i'll delete my post once these two gentlemen move on.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby partha » 01 Oct 2014 22:51

From this link posted in LCA thread -
http://awin.aviationweek.com/portals/awin/cmsfiles/media/pdf/as_pdf/2014/01/06/asd_01_06_2014.txt
5. India Leads Naval Ship Suppliers In Asia-Pacific

India ranks as the leading naval ship supplier for Asia-Pacific partners and allies of the U.S., according
to an Aviation Week Intelligence Network (AWIN) analysis of data provided by Avascent Analytics.


The analysis indicates that India will sell about $24.5 billion worth of naval ships and related equipment--including
development services and production--to Australia, India, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Pakistan, Singapore,
South Korea, Taiwan and Thailand over the period 2009-2023.

Supply to Pakistan? That should be printing error, no?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nirav » 01 Oct 2014 22:56

This thread could use some moderation.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 01 Oct 2014 22:59

partha wrote:The analysis indicates that India will sell about $24.5 billion worth of naval ships and related equipment--including
development services and production--to Australia, India, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Pakistan, Singapore,
South Korea, Taiwan and Thailand over the period 2009-2023.
Might even be true, Aman ki (Tam)Asha group wanted to gift so many things to pakees (locomotives, Power, Gas, Cement, automobiles etc), maybe some Naval gear was also sold/gifted/donated by Mickey Mouse Singh

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 01 Oct 2014 23:05

nirav wrote:This thread could use some moderation.

Fully agree.
All these arm chair aeroplane builders and missile builders remind me of the typical arm chair cricketers who attack the cricketers and pontificate and will piss if a leather ball were thrown at them with the speed that it is delivered when thrown by a professional.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nirav » 01 Oct 2014 23:06

Shrinivasan wrote:
partha wrote:The analysis indicates that India will sell about $24.5 billion worth of naval ships and related equipment--including
development services and production--to Australia, India, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Pakistan, Singapore,
South Korea, Taiwan and Thailand over the period 2009-2023.
Might even be true, Aman ki (Tam)Asha group wanted to gift so many things to pakees (locomotives, Power, Gas, Cement, automobiles etc), maybe some Naval gear was also sold/gifted/donated by Mickey Mouse Singh


What's wrong with selling stuff to Pakistan ?

There must be an able Pakistan navy for Indian navy to sink.

If we make a few million $ in the process, awesome.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sohamn » 01 Oct 2014 23:12

Any idea on what this new ship is ? Never heard of such a ship getting constructed in HSL.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/10/revealed-navy-warship-that-could-save.html

Image
Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 01 Oct 2014 23:22

sohamn wrote:Any idea on what this new ship is ? Never heard of such a ship getting constructed in HSL.
Sohamn, this is an OSS (Ocean surveillance Ship), see my post earlier today... this seems to be like an Naval version of MNREGA designed to provide some work to HSL, but digging deeper, IN is beefing up its deep ocean surveillance capabilities.
Our current crop of survey vessels are 500Ts to 2000Ts, this tips the scale @ 10,000T, and this looks like the displacement of the ship alone, with its (literally) boatload of sensors, it could climb up further.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Picklu » 01 Oct 2014 23:27

Given the hurry, it might be required for the full envelop testing of Arihunt as well. However this is purely speculation originating from my mush so TIFWIW.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 02 Oct 2014 03:31

chetak wrote:You haven't addressed my question about firewalling. I would appreciate an answer.


Why? So that we can give gyaan on an open forum about what organization does what? Funny, on the one hand below you claim you don't want to talk on an "open forum" after cursing away at one organization all the while, now you wish to pursue this line of enquiry.

Fact is you made some really dodgy claims one of which was that ISRO does local sourcing, DRDO doesnt and neither does the latter have plans to do so. Latter is plain wrong since many folks do have a fair amount of data on both organizations & the amount of effort they go to, to source locally. Of course, both don't have the same challenges - ISRO for instance can make many design choices without its users complaining about system internals since they don't maintain ISRO systems, but then that's exactly the point about how different both orgs are in terms of their overall ecosystem. The amount of differences are so staggering that one can't even take this sort of comparison seriously.

Now, I have no interest in detailing the amount of information available, even publicly, on this very forum about how mistaken your statements were, suffice to say there are folks who dispassionately look at these issues & they know for a fact what Indian industrial capability is & how it spans organizations across India. Lets just leave it at that.

I don't go to have tea with these fellows. I consult professionally for a lot of them. Both organisations have design and industrial capabilities separated by several worlds. One sets standards and the other seems confused by them. One retains live wires with practiced ease while the other lets go of it's live wires without a clue of how to retain them.


Yet you make errors about what each organization sources & how similar their design & industrial capabilities are. Its in nobody's interest, least of all the organizations in question, that I sit down & document even open source information about who supplies what, but nor is it some big secret either & the fact that this is some sort of surprise to you (let alone the claims that it doesn't exist) speaks for itself.

As regards "letting go of live wires", yes, perhaps its all the live wires who were let go because of which India today has made rapid strides in electronics & missile tech to the degree that it has; in several areas actually ISRO is not even present (and why would it be, it has no interest in maintaining or developing complex systems for war that invariably involve completely different subsystems & systems ISRO has not even ventured into).

Sorry but you are just comparing apples to oranges & making a complete mess of it as well.

Simply put, ISRO is an organization which works to its own plan set by stakeholders which don't encompass the breadth that DRDO has to work towards (namely the services) & nor does it have to go for ambitious overreach (India won't lose a war if ISRO's MK1 space launcher is behind some "out there international standard" somehow procured by the PRC or Pak).

If objective evaluations are undertaken, both ISRO & DRDO actually suffer from similar challenges in technology & manpower, with an edge to ISRO because of its relative autonomy under the DOS & remuneration structures which DRDO & other Govt orgs have been asking GOI for. But which have remained pending for quite a while.

Both organizations also face similar challenges in leveraging what Indian industry (private and public) can provide to meet their ambitious missions. Lets just leave it at that.

I know exactly TO WHOM these companies sell and exactly FROM WHOM they buy, how much of what and use where and in which product, using which process and shipped when. I see detailed inspection reports, rework done, complaints by customers and accolades and often end up training the people who work. If you have anything but conjectures to add then please do so.


I have far more than conjecture & have been tracking these details for a long time.

As I said, I have no interest in beating any trumpet or cataloging details even if open source, given what Indian organizations have faced in the past, but I know fairly well about the amount of sourcing done by the organizations, their partners & the kind of work done as well. Heck, time was, one could even go to the detail of doing a LRU by LRU count of the efforts being made on programs purely based on public reports by the supplier organizations.

Unlike you though, my interest in the topic is purely dispassionate, without the need for pointed barbs at either organization since I understand their constraints.

I have seen very very few companies supplying both. It usually just one or the other for an overwhelming majority of 95-98 percent. Imported material commonality is less that 8-10 % Companies tend to specialize in the parts they make. Numbingly tedious inspection procedures make them specialize further.


I can count a dozen companies that supply to both offhand across a range of item types... Imported material commodity is not 8-10% but can go up to significantly more depending on the item being supplied, whether it is mechanical, avionics etc etc. At the end of the day, import choices are made on the basis of a) program funding b) indian industrial capability judged by TRLs. The combination of the two makes critical choices necessary.

I don't dislike any org but I have worked for one for several years to intimately know the systems and the processes and the motivation levels. I have seen senior jokers running away when meetings are called to review schedules and promised deliverables, leaving their juniors to take the flack. I have never seen such pliable ethics anywhere but there


The "but" says it all. I can merely do a simple scan of all your posts hitherto & your dislike speaks for itself, all your caveats apart.
Well, then please work across firms in the much vaunted Indian industry & I can assure you that you will see all sorts of folks good and bad. I am afraid your dislike of the one org is so overt and striking, that it prevents you from being objective.

Even now I despair for one and laud the other because the difference is like chalk and cheese. In the end as a deshbakth, I have pride and a stake in the success of both organisations..


Actually, the difference judged purely on outcomes is quite similar. Neither has exactly managed to meet overambitious targets thanks to both external constraints and their own issues. As I said, your bias has clouded your objectivity. Case in point - taking pleasure in even petty issues such as senior scientists of one org being sentenced to imprisonment for some bureaucratic wrangling! Its the kind of non news that the Indian media excels in yet...and please, lets not debate semantics about "what you meant" and so forth.. your likes/dislikes are your own & you are welcome to them. I am merely pointing out objectivity is shot in the process & that, quite frankly is what it is.

I will not put down anything further in an open forum. Many of my customers lurk on this forum. May be this can be a point of discussion in some local meet.


Boss, I am not asking you for details & nor am I on the look out for some "gossip". If you were truly bothered about "open forums", then we wouldn't be having this discussion either.

Let me just say that most of are old enough by now to see folks with their fixed views, let them have their say (it's a free country) but at the same time, bide our own counsel & make up our own minds based on objective data available via a variety of sources.

It kind of reminds me of the time that some us of had a very senior, respected gent from a certain service, frothing at the mouth about the LCA program and how "even the microchips in it were imported" - now, two options there. Either stand & debate the issue of making every microchip in India, or gracefully exit, given he had made his mind up, would refuse to acknowledge the reality even if it were presented to him & of course, we all did respect his achievements.

Much the same now. But it didn't make for a factual argument.
Last edited by Karan M on 02 Oct 2014 04:10, edited 1 time in total.

Karan M
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 02 Oct 2014 03:54

chetak wrote:One painstakingly develops, guides and nurtures it's suppliers while the other treats them as adversaries only.

Suppliers react very differently to such customers and look constantly for a way out
At mid management level, I have seen jokers who forcibly grab source code from helpless suppliers threatened into silence and present the very same as their original work during promotion boards. Height of deception.


Like I said, no offense intended, your inability to look beyond your own likes/dislikes is making you reach some really wide reaching and "out there" assumptions. The above is a typical case " One painstakingly develops, guides and nurtures it's suppliers while the other treats them as adversaries only. - which are just plain wrong based on the reams of information available publicly for so many programs on this forum itself.

But wait, lets leave that aside. Lets just say that many folks have had the opportunity to discuss the work of many suppliers working with DRDO across many programs & there is a wide commitment to both the national endeavor as also those folks at DRDO who recognized their capabilities & slogged to get them involved in the supply chain. Far too many programs wherein suppliers take immense pride in their work & are recognized as such.

I visit a small srilankan firm which makes a few high tech major aerospace products supplied directly to two major aerospace clients to be used directly on the aircraft and not as minor part of any subsystem or LRU. This is much more than is made by any repeat any player in India, be it big or small. There are many such firms in srilanka alone. Not even talking of malaysia or china where we also go


So what exactly is the big deal? I can show you firms in Belgium which supplied systems which were not available in France. France<<< Belgium.

Sorry, but such "anecdotes" are irrelevant because they precisely demonstrate how easy it is to miss the wood for the trees. Are parts being sourced from Norway for the JSF reflective of Norway>>>US in aerospace?

Or should I bring up how a large WW MNC wanted to make high grade electronics in India and waltzed away to another location because of GOI flatfootedness..

Lets be clear here - there are dime a dozen firms in India making items in India which wouldn't have, if not for ISRO/DRDO. Not that both succeeded in all their requirements. Zimble. Not taking sides..

Another warrior enters the arena and claims greatness by dissing ISRO??


I think the point that you are missing here is that it is you who set up the irrelevant and quite pointless ISRO vs DRDO comparison based on a dodgy premise. Its kind of the argument method of saying "my team is better than your team". And you end up provoking the response "heck no, the other team is much better than your favorite".. in which case you yell "outrage!!"

The bigger point though, getting upset about smoke, after setting a fire is facetious.

My response is actually: "err, sir, both teams are actually working w/each other & represent much the same face". That is since I don't have an axe to grind against either & nor do I agree with your flawed comparison.
Apples to apples. Otherwise akin to saying NASA is better than Lockheed's fighter division or Antrix is worse than Elop's fire control unit. Hard to take any such things seriously.
Last edited by Karan M on 02 Oct 2014 04:21, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 02 Oct 2014 04:04

Is the displacement 10000 tonne or just empty weight? Could it be a tanker/Supplier ship?

Shrinivasan
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 02 Oct 2014 05:13

Bheeshma wrote:Is the displacement 10000 tonne or just empty weight? Could it be a tanker/Supplier ship?
The graphic says Steel weight, at 175M length it could mean an empty displacement of somewhere around that weight.

in Vik Sandvik's site, Displacement and Steel weight appears to be used interchangeably. As there is no way, they would have been able to decipher the fully laden weight it should be the displacement of the basic hull before fit-out.


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