Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_28640 » 23 Oct 2014 00:01

Nikhil T wrote:
GopiN wrote:Also for extending the reach of the naval arm, Navy would be better equipped to carry out Replenishment at sea and have longer expeditionary missions (not to mention better SAR)


Not sure what threat IN is seeing. According to me, India has no foreseeable threat to any of its own islands. Even if it arose the Shardul-class can help us get a few MBTs and soldiers there. For farther missions such as a remote island in Andamans, the Jalashwa is available. Plus have no expeditionary needs for a 40k ton ship unless we're thinking of sending in troops to support Vietnam vs China!

I'd rather spend the money on beefing up our ASW assets such as giving Pvt Sector contract to build the 8xP28A!

If the said LPD's are commissioned then I would forsee replenishment at sea missions for them.. The ability to do that would greatly increase patrol efficiency .. How about protecting Indian assets in Chabar and Oman..
Could also severely jack up the potency of a CBG

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Oct 2014 06:46

LPDs do not perform UNREP missions to fast task forces. there are specialized Fast Combat Support Ships...different from slower tankers ...these can be embedded in the CBG and keep up with the task force at 25-30knots. look at her powerplant of 4xLM2500
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USNS_Supply_(T-AOE-6)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USNS_Rainier_(T-AOE-7)

Supply has the speed to keep up with the carrier strike groups. She rapidly replenishes Navy task forces. She receives petroleum products, ammunition and stores from shuttle ships and redistributes these items simultaneously to carrier strike group ships. This reduces the vulnerability of serviced ships by reducing alongside time.

---
this is a special class of ship which I think only the US navy has.

the conventional dry cargo and oilers max out around 20 knots and everyone has them. you really cannot distribute much of dry cargo using helicopter underslung pallets and certainly not oil for the engines.

we need fast vicious and capable ASW lead ships like HYUGA to lead squads of P28 and Saryu ships on ASW sea control missions and free up other ships for offensive patrols. JMSDF is a good book to read from since they specialize mostly in ASW for decades now against the vast soviet submarine fleet, and that in hostile conditions of the north pacific.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby symontk » 23 Oct 2014 07:00

GopiN wrote:If the said LPD's are commissioned then I would forsee replenishment at sea missions for them.. The ability to do that would greatly increase patrol efficiency .. How about protecting Indian assets in Chabar and Oman..
Could also severely jack up the potency of a CBG


Burma is another theatre where LDP's would be useful in future. Any Chinese incursion to Burma to gain access to Bay of Bengal needs to be stopped and LDP's would be be useful in that regard, even though Air and Land supplies also could be used

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 23 Oct 2014 07:53

Why I've always ,aintained that we should have a larger more capable amphib based upon the IAC (modified) hull design,like the Juan Carlos class,with a flat top that can operate attack helos and poss. NLCAs for close air support for the landing forces.The vessels will be able to "swing" its role when ASW is required and provide some reasonable air defence of a task force/convoy allowing our carriers for force projection offensively.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_28640 » 23 Oct 2014 10:05

Singha wrote:LPDs do not perform UNREP missions to fast task forces. there are specialized Fast Combat Support Ships...different from slower tankers ...these can be embedded in the CBG and keep up with the task force at 25-30knots. look at her powerplant of 4xLM2500
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USNS_Supply_(T-AOE-6)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USNS_Rainier_(T-AOE-7)

Supply has the speed to keep up with the carrier strike groups. She rapidly replenishes Navy task forces. She receives petroleum products, ammunition and stores from shuttle ships and redistributes these items simultaneously to carrier strike group ships. This reduces the vulnerability of serviced ships by reducing alongside time.

---
this is a special class of ship which I think only the US navy has.

the conventional dry cargo and oilers max out around 20 knots and everyone has them. you really cannot distribute much of dry cargo using helicopter underslung pallets and certainly not oil for the engines.

we need fast vicious and capable ASW lead ships like HYUGA to lead squads of P28 and Saryu ships on ASW sea control missions and free up other ships for offensive patrols. JMSDF is a good book to read from since they specialize mostly in ASW for decades now against the vast soviet submarine fleet, and that in hostile conditions of the north pacific.

Point taken sir...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Oct 2014 11:42

the closest equivalent which is scrapped now is the soviet era Moskva helicopter cruiser. they used a deck in the rear for helicopters and loaded the front deck with ASW weapons. however the more conventional LPH layout deck offers far more room for naval helicopters...thats its true value on the table...not TT or missiles which any ship can carry. a fast LPH with 15 NH90 can keep a 3 helis on the hunt day in and day out, which no FFG/DDG can. BAMS and P8 can aid in the search.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 23 Oct 2014 12:04

Lets not beat around the bush. What we really want is a "through deck cruiser" with well deck. 4 of these to complement VKD and two Vikrant class aircraft carriers. With an expected life of 30-40 years, there is a good chance that we may operate a flight of JSFs from these.

My vote goes to the Juan Carlos.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hovyJVJhrHU/U ... 1%255D.jpg

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vishnu.nv » 23 Oct 2014 12:32

The need for LPH in the navy is felt after the 2004 Tsunami. The purchase of the INS Jalashwa was mainly as a training platform for amphibious operations.

The capability should be exist to project power, also to quick deploy amphibious brigades with air support. (piracy,Operation Cactus kind of situations ). This allows deploying troops deep inside enemy territory using helicopters and recovering them back after operation.

Juan carlos is waste of money since we don't operate f-35's. its more of a carrier/amphibious operations ship. Since we are going for 3 carrier fleet what we need is amphibious/ASW helicopter occupied ships.

The in-house flat-top modelled after south korean Dokdo or Hyuga will be more apt for us. A mix of Light Combat / ASW/ Transport helicopters should be operated from them. The INS vikrant can be converted to a Flat top.

Although agree that these are not priority at the moment, resource can be better used procuring more helicopters for existing ships and more submarines.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_20453 » 23 Oct 2014 13:05

hecky wrote:Agree with Singha. We need something like (smaller) Wasp/America class rather than San Antonio class.


Smaller Wasp/ Amerca class? I think you mean gigantic, Wasp class is displacing 41K tons while the America is a mammoth displacing 45Ktons

Though America class is ideal, the thing is pretty expensive. Juan Carlos fits in with in our budget. However, America allows for 2 battlions of Marines to be deployed, double that of Juan Carlos.

I think it is safer to order 2 more of Juna Carlos and take the number to 6. 1 dedicated to Pak while 5 dedicated to China.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Will » 23 Oct 2014 13:50

Singha wrote:a couple of cheap Ro-Ro ferries are more than enough to rush reinforcements to the Andamans provided we built a few jetties here and there...as they would not carry LSTs to enter really shallow or unprepared areas.

I am at a loss of cook up any scenario where the andamans or laccadives face any takeover threat.


Heard about the direct Chinese road to Burma and plans of building a Chinese Naval base there. A&N are the biggest threat to China's seaborne trade and the Ace up India's sleeve. Wouldn't want to wake up one fine day and find a few islands taken over by the Chinese with no capability to take it back would you? It may sound far fetched but as they say always be prepared for any eventuality.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 23 Oct 2014 17:06

Sub weaponry has advanced manifold in recent times.Torpedoes have a range of 50+km,with the French develoing one that has hours of endurance making repeated attacks .Heavyweight Russian fish have the same capability,wake-homing one's which keep on coming until they hit/detonate next to the vessel.Nuclear boats have top speeds of more than 30kts and will outrun any syrface ships .The titanium hulled Alfa class could dive deeper than any other sub abd had speeds of 40kts according to some sources. ASW surface platforms will have to have sensors and weaponry that can attack subs at longer ranges ,deeper depths,both soft and hard kill systems for anti-torpedod defence and possess ASW helos with their own dunking sonars.Subs are being equipped with anti-helo/ASW aircraft SAMs too.US N-subs ahve even experimented with drone launches from underwater. The game is changing very rapidly.

The USN is pondering the use of the San Antonio hull for a new design of amphibs,endorsed by 20 former USMC generals.We have alreadyd eveloped/designed the hull for the IAC-1.A modification of the design would be easier to achieve,have common eqpt. and powerplant,sensors and weaponry.What would differ would be the composition of the air assets and lower decks,well-deck for the assortment of vehicles and other eqpt. for marrinbe forces,LCs,etc.Remember that the Hermes/Viraat was also used in the Falklamds for the amphib assault.It provided both anti-air and amphib assault roles in that campaign.Therefore a through-deck flat top gives one the max. flexibility .

Good move by the GOI.To wean SL away from the PRC.
http://www.dailymirror.lk/54727/india-t ... hips-to-sl

India to provide two naval ships to SL
2014-10-21 India has decided to supply two naval offshore patrol vessels and other military equipment to the Sri Lanka, the Times of India reported.

India has earlier provided 24 L-70 guns, 24 battle-field surveillance radars, 11 USFM radars, four Indra-II radars and 10 mine-protected vehicles, among other things, to the Sri Lankan forces. Moreover, around 800 to 900 Sri Lankan military personnel are trained in Indian military establishments every year.
India will further step-up defence cooperation with Sri Lanka, including assistance in "capacity-building" of their armed forces through both training and supply of equipment, in tune with the overall policy to steadily boost military ties with countries in Indian Ocean to counter China's strategic inroads in the region
.
Indian Defence minister Arun Jaitley on Monday held a meeting with visiting Sri Lankan defence secretary Gotabhaya Rajapakshe, to discuss ways to expand the bilateral military relationship.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 23 Oct 2014 17:21

Since we're on the sub ,this report about the Swedish "sub" hunt difficulties makes for interesting reading.

http://www.businessinsider.in/Sweden-Is ... 913460.cms
Sweden Is Learning Just How Insanely Difficult It Is To Capture An Enemy Submarine

Armin Rosen0Oct 23, 2014,

The Swedish military is currently hunting what they have described as a mysterious foreign vessel that's violating the country's territorial waters. Swedish authorities aren't sure what they're looking for - or even how many vessels they're looking for. Confirmed details are scarce, but it's at least possible they're looking for a Russian submarine, a potentiality that's led Swedish military planners to consider using "armed force" in order to coerce the vessel into surfacing.

The Swedes want to pull off one of the most difficult naval maneuvers of all: capturing a submarine. This is so difficult the CIA spent six years trying to raise a wrecked Soviet sub from the ocean floor in the late 1960s and early 70s - which is a less outlandish endeavor than trying to bring in a live, functioning one.

No Soviet or Russian submarine has ever been captured. A Japanese midget submarine was taken after running aground duirng the Pearl Harbor raid. But only one Axis sub was actually boarded on the high seas during the war and its story demonstrates the near-impossibility of taking an enemy vessel whole.

U-505 currently sits in Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry, with 70-year-old bullet holes tracing the outline of a sloping chrome-colored hull. Visitors can tour its cramped interior with guides that indicate where a series of self-destruct charges were hidden to be used in the the unthinkable and nearly unprecedented event of an enemy boarding. After a top-secret military and intelligence effort spanning several months, the entire mission was in danger even after American sailors set foot on the defeated U-505 150 miles off the coast of west Africa on June 4th, 1944.

Capturing a submarine is remarkably difficult. A dedicated captain will sink his vessel rather than let it fall into enemy hands and a hull breach or badly-placed depth charge could wreck the ship before it's even in a position too be boarded. Here's how it was done in the case of U-505.

U-505 was captured based on intercepted German communications suggesting U-boats would be operating near Africa, about 150 miles off the coast of present-day Cape Verde, in May of 1944. A so-called "hunter-killer" force called Task Group 22.3 - under the command of Rear Admiral Daniel Gallery and the USS Guadalcanal carrier group - was dispatched to the U-boats' suspected area of operation with the express objective of capturing rather than destroying an enemy sub.

The hunt for U-505 depended on an intercepted message decrypted as part of a joint US-British effort to break German naval codes. Capturing the sub required knowing where the vessel was roughly going to be ahead of time. Even then, Task Group 22.3, which included no fewer than six US Navy ships, had to spend two seemingly fruitless weeks scouring the area for sub activity - a hefty commitment of time and resources even under the best of circumstances.

The searchers nearly ran out of fuel. They only encountered U-505 by luck, and were fortunate not to accidentally destroy the ship in the initial confrontation. One of the Guadalcanal's escorts "made sonar contact on an object just 800 yards away on her starboard bow. Guadalcanal immediately swung clear at top speed, desperately trying to avoid getting in the way, as Chatelain and the other escorts closed the position," according to a US Navy description.

The six American vessels attempted to enclose the U-boat. The Chatelain dropped a depth charge designed only to explode on contact; the Guadalcanal scrambled two of its planes to track the ship and fire on the water in order to mark its expected position. A round of depth charges from the fast-closing Chatelian convinced the sub to surface.

Swedish corvette HMS Visby patrols the Stockholm Archipelago October 19 2014, searching for what the military says is a foreign threat in the waters

"Just six and one-half minutes after Chatelain's first attack, U-505 broke the surface with its rudder jammed, lights and electrical machinery out, and water coming in," the Navy's account reads.

The American fleet was still vulnerable to an underwater attack. One of the escort ships swept the sub's deck with machine-gun fire; another fired a warning torpedo. A boarding party from the USS Pillsbury only attempted to land on the enemy ship when it showed no apparent signs of activity. And even then, those self-destruct charges threatened to bring the whole operation down while killing every member of the boarding team.

Luckily, the German crew surrendered peaceably - and the sub turned out to be a cryptological bonanza, with encrypted typewriters that included the cypher keys for German vessels planned to use for the next two months of the war.

But any number of factors could have doomed the hunt for U-505.

The sub's crew was demoralized - it knew it was under enemy pursuit, and one of its commanding officers committed suicide in the vessel's control room shortly before U-505 was captured. A more skilled or committed crew might have opted to destroy the sub entirely - and an ill-placed depth charge from a US ship could have accidentally ended the operation for good.

This doesn't mean the Swedes can't catch their alleged Russian sub. As Reuters reports, the country's military is considered to be skilled in anti-submarine warfare.

However, Sweden sold off or retired many of its submarine-hunting helicopters in 2008; that same Reuters article says some of them are currently in a Swedish museum. The sub hunt is the biggest Swedish military operation since the Cold War, but it only involves five anti-submarine corvettes working in a vast and rocky Scandinavian island chain prone to bad weather.

Luck might be on Stockholm's side, and the search is understandable even if it returns empty-handed. Sweden wants to prove it takes violations of its sovereignty seriously. And the actual capture of a Russian sub, which could yield substantial intelligence or valuable captives, would give Sweden and its allies an indispensable and perhaps unprecedented degree of leverage over Vladimir Putin.

Even so, the odds are against a Swedish Armed Forces whose leadership already seems exasperated by the task before it. It's likely whatever Sweden is hunting won't surface until it's back in friendly waters - and that the search effort will seem like a semi-farcical hunt for nothing.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Will » 23 Oct 2014 22:45

The DAC meet on Saturday is expected to clear the decks for the RFP for the new line of submarines (hopefully :) ) Which could be the ideal conventional submarine for the IN.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_26622 » 24 Oct 2014 00:14

None - We are better off focussing on nuclear submarines and anti submarine platforms. My two cents -

Pakistan - all of it can be targeted x 5 times over by Air and Surface combatants from Air force and Naval side.
China - Conventional submarines are useless to cover the distance, Nuclear is the way to go.

For IOR region we are better off focussing on Surface/Air combatants to deny freedom for enemy submarine activities. This harping of diminishing conventional submarine numbers is an import lobby smoke screen.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Suraj » 24 Oct 2014 00:17

India's 1st indigenous aircraft carrier taking shape at Kochi
"Around 85 per cent of the hull is complete and 90 per cent of the fabrication is over. 85 per cent of the erection has been over," Commodore K Subramaniam (Retd), CSL Chairman and Managing Director told reporters on the sidelines of a function organised by the CII.

Cochin Shipyard stares at a lean order book
The hullabaloo over the Centre granting in-principle approval for construction of a whole new drydock at the public sector Cochin Shipyard (CSL) at an estimated cost of Rs 1,200 crore notwithstanding, the yard is left with just one commercial order at the moment.

With the hull fabrication work of the indigenous aircraft carrier INS Vikrant nearing completion by the year-end, the hull shop of CSL will be without work in a few months.

The hull shop, having a capacity to fabricate over 1,500 tonnes every month, has been under-utilised since July last year for want of orders barring the fast patrol vessels (FPVs) for the Coast Guard which need just about 100 tonnes of fabrication apiece and a platform supply vessel for Norwegian owners.

While outfitting and shafting have gathered momentum on Vikrant, the carrier is gearing up for its launch from the building bay by the end of the year, indicate sources.

“The carrier only has about 1,200 tonnes of steel left to go on the structure. Right now, it has a tonnage of about 24,000.”

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 24 Oct 2014 00:29

After this they can start on IAC-2.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_28797 » 24 Oct 2014 07:19

del
Last edited by member_28797 on 24 Oct 2014 07:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_28797 » 24 Oct 2014 07:19

And then IAC-3 and IAC-4 one for each direction

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 24 Oct 2014 11:01

I think the Indian Navy has very similar requirements like that of US Navy for amphibious warfare

""The Wasp (LHD 1) Class is the US Navy's large-deck multipurpose amphibious assault ship. LHDs (landing helicopter deck) embark, transport, deploy, command and fully support all elements of a marine expeditionary unit (MEU) of 2,000 Marines, inserting forces ashore via helicopters, landing craft and amphibious vehicles.

The WASP Class is the first specifically designed to employ air-cushion landing craft (LCACS), and to carry a squadron of Harrier II (AV-8B) STOVL (short take-off vertical landing) jets""

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kmkraoind » 24 Oct 2014 14:18

The Indian Navy's quest for amphibious assault ships - Saurav Jha

RFI are as follows:

(a) The length of the ship would be approx 200 m. Breadth is to be commensurate with the length and tonnage of the ship.

(b) The draught of the ship is not to exceed 08 m.

(c) The ship is expected to have an endurance of 45 days.

(d) The ship is to have Diesel-Electric propulsion in either of the following configurations:-

(i) Twin shaft configuration, with twin rudders and Fixed Pitch Propellers or,

(ii) Shock graded podded propulsion.

(e) The ship is to have a suitable well deck for amphibious operations. The ship would carry amphibious crafts like LCMs or LCACs and LCVPs on davits and should have capability to launch these crafts when underway.

(f) The ship is expected to have a carriage of combat vehicles on one or more vehicle deck. This area should be adequate to embark Main Battle Tank (MBT), AAVs/BMP Class armoured vehicles and heavy trucks.

(g) The ship would be equipped with a Point Defence Missile System, Close In Weapon System, Anti Torpedo Decoy system, Chaff System and HMGs/ LMGs. In addition, ship would have one E/ F band combined air and surface surveillance radar and one C/D band air surveillance radar. All of these would be buyer nominated equipment.

(h) The ship is expected to carry army troops in addition to ship crew.

(j) The ship should have capability of simultaneous operation by day/ night of Special Operation Helicopters and Large Helicopters (up to 35 tons).

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 24 Oct 2014 15:03

that 35t at the end seems oriented to the mighty CH53K King Stallion about to IOC for the usmc.
empty: 15t
loaded: 33t
it can carry 37 fully armed troops(a platoon ie) and 55 if a centerline seat row is installed.

useless for ASW though. if its desired to a ASW ship the NH90/Sh60 is needed.

we seem to be going in direction of a marine assault ship than a ASW task force lead ship...right when both TSP and Cheen are investing heavily into submarines as their primary weapon against us.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SanjayC » 24 Oct 2014 22:47

India, Singapore Can Consider Warship-Building Venture, Says Expert
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/india ... ert-611512

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Will » 24 Oct 2014 23:42

By the Juan Carlos class. They can double up in the ASW role with Helicopters and as Air defence ships with F-35's :) . Gives India 4 mini aircraft carriers :P

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Ranjani Brow » 24 Oct 2014 23:52

The re-issued RFP is for a 40000 ton LPD (according to Janes). I don't think any existing design meets the criterion.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srin » 25 Oct 2014 00:22

There is the America class ...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Uttam » 25 Oct 2014 01:25

Today there is an article in WSJ that says the range for Arihant is 435 miles, which is a tenth of China's 094 Jin. Any comments from experts here.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sumits_mail » 25 Oct 2014 03:31

Uttam wrote:Today there is an article in WSJ that says the range for Arihant is 435 miles, which is a tenth of China's 094 Jin. Any comments from experts here.


I think they (or you) are confusing it with the range of K-15 missiles which is 750kms (or 466 miles)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 25 Oct 2014 06:50

Singha's point about Ro-Ro ferries has to be seriously followed up.I've said the same many a time.The UK used "STUFT","ships taken up from trade" in the Falklands,using many merchantmen,ferries,even the QE2 cruise liner in the war.Ro_Ri ferries are found all over Europe.They would be absolutely great for coastal shipping in India,operating on both coasts and used in a crisis to carry troops,armour and eqpt. in any crisis to the island territories,neighbouring IOR nations under threat.Finland make some superb ferries which can weahtter Atlantic hurricanes.

Sewden meanwhile called off its sub hunt (genuine or a ploy to get the sub to reveal itself?).Either there was no Russian sub ,and it was all a ploy to get more funds for the Swedish military,or it underscores the quietness and ability of the Russian sub that couldn't be caught! Anyway,the importance of ASW warfare needcs to be given a major boost for the IN,both in urgent immediate sub acquisitions and more ASW platforms and aircraft.helos.

Sweden Ends Submarine Search, Closing Book on Intrigue-Tinged Episode
By DAN BILEFSKYOCT. 24, 2014

“The Hunt for Reds in October” — as the search for a mysterious submarine in Swedish waters has been termed — is over, at least for now.

The Swedish authorities said Friday that a military team that had included minesweepers, helicopters and ships had been called off after a weeklong search for a vessel that never materialized.

“The hunt is over, and now the time has come to analyze what happened,” said Ingela Nilsson, a spokeswoman for the Swedish Defense Ministry. “Everyone in Sweden has been talking about the hunt, and people were proud to see our military can conduct a large operation like this.”

At a time of rising East-West tensions, fanned by Russia’s involvement in the Ukraine crisis, the search was the biggest mobilization of its kind in Sweden since the end of the Cold War. Some ground forces will remain on alert, Ms. Nilsson said.

Submarine Search Near Stockholm Reminiscent of a Cold War Thriller OCT. 21, 2014
Swedish Navy vessels have been searching for a foreign ship in the waters off Stockholm.
Sweden Hunts for Source of Underwater Signals
OCT. 19, 2014

Signs of a possible vessel in the Stockholm archipelago were first detected on Oct. 17, and Swedish officials said they suspected that a foreign submarine had infiltrated Swedish waters. Officials were at pains not to name the origin of the vessel, even as suspicion immediately fell on Russia.

The Russian government has emphatically denied having a vessel in the area. Nevertheless, Ms. Nilsson said that recent assertiveness by Russia in the region had heightened Swedish vigilance. She said the sight of the large-scale mobilization had helped reinforce public confidence in the Swedish military, and in government plans to increase military spending in response to rising tensions fueled by Russian actions in Ukraine and beyond.

The search for the submarine captured the global imagination and spurred enough conspiracy theories to fill a Cold War thriller.

Some suspected that the Russians were testing a new minisubmarine. Rumors of an espionage plot also surfaced after a mysterious man in black was spotted wading near an unidentified craft. In Sweden, a neutral country that is a member of the European Union but is not in NATO, the hunt for the vessel brought back still-vivid memories of the Cold War intrigue of past decades.

In 1981, a Soviet submarine suspected of carrying nuclear weapons hit an underwater rock off Karlskrona, Sweden, leading to a standoff that lasted more than a week. While the Soviet captain was being questioned aboard a Swedish torpedo boat in the company of two Soviet diplomats, the submarine was pulled off the rock by the Swedes.

While Sweden has been gripped with a Cold War fever of sorts, spurred by talk of the vessel, Ms. Nilsson emphasized that the country remained confident in its security. “I wouldn’t say people are disappointed the search is over,” she said. “The armed forces have done what they could and took it seriously. People are not afraid.”


PS:The mysterious man in black was later discovered to have been an old pensioner!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 25 Oct 2014 08:56

Nuclear submarines have infinite range and are limited by crew endurance. That is why US submarines have two sets of crew.

Swedish industry needs capital infusion. The scaremongering is probably to achieve that.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby JTull » 25 Oct 2014 12:29

tsarkar wrote:Swedish industry needs capital infusion. The scaremongering is probably to achieve that.


They've a new leftist govt. less inclined to spend on armed forces but more on benefits. They'll raise taxes and allow easier immigration. Their armed forces may not be very happy with some of these things.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 25 Oct 2014 14:24

Why does India need large Amphibious ships?

Why large?

Because the challenge is not landing forces, its sustaining them, that a large ship can do better than smaller ships.

Why build Amphibious capability?

1. For better warfare capabilities.

All three services practice Amphibious Assault during TROPEX exercises annually at Karnataka/Goa, Gujarat & Andamans. PA deployment on Pakistani coast is thin, with relatively no armour, artillery or SAM support. The density of forces is highest north, followed by Central and least South. It is actually feasible to land & sustain forces in Pakistan. It can also relieve pressure on the North if required. Today, IN Air Arm with MiG29K & Tejas can provide 100 aircraft to sustain air operations. P-8I+Il38+Tu142 can provide significant strike force and all are capable of carrying huge conventional bomb loads.

2. For plucking pearls from the string.

Check out the location of Coco Islands. here http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dpg0d4cWGlo/U ... sBurma.gif

More closely here http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE5-6/coco.jpg

Coco Island is 18 km from the Northernmost Andaman Group Landfall Island and Narcondum Island. The Chinese base of Hianggyi Island is also within threatening distance. Panditji in his infinite wisdom gave it to Burma. Despite Burma being friendly with India in recent times, the Chinese are increasing their presence http://www.livefistdefence.com/2011/11/ ... sland.html

Old but relevant article here http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... ahroo.html

We need large amphibious forces to take out Coco.

3. India's energy security

India needs energy. More precisely petroleum. Unfortunately, the only places India can drill oil internationally are the world's most troubled places since easier places are already taken by others.

http://www.ongcindia.com/wps/wcm/connec ... h+Limited/
ONGC Videsh has 13 producing assets, namely, Russia (Sakhalin-I and Imperial Energy), Syria (Al-Furat Petroleum Co.), Vietnam (Block 06.1), Colombia (MECL), Sudan (Greater Nile Petroleum Operating Company), South Sudan (Greater Pioneer Operating Company and Sudd Petroleum Operating Company), Venezuela (San Cristobal), Brazil (BC-10), Myanmar (Block A1 & Block A3) and Azerbaijan (ACG). 4 Assets where hydrocarbons have been discovered are at various stages of development, 14 assets are under various stages of exploration phase and 2 pipeline projects are under operation for transportation of oil and gas.


From today's news http://www.deccanchronicle.com/141025/n ... -sea-offer
Ahead of the visit of Vietnamese Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung to India next week, India on Friday indicated that it is open to accepting Vietnam’s offer, if found commercially viable, of participation in additional oil blocks in the South China Sea, despite Chinese concerns.


What kind of conflicts happen at offshore rigs?

http://theweek.com/article/index/270307 ... -for-china

One morning last June, the people of Vietnam woke up to someone else's oil rig in their backyard. The 30,000-ton Haiyang Shiyou-981, owned by the China National Offshore Oil Corporation, was parked 70 miles inside waters controlled by Vietnam......In June of this year, Vietnam's fears were realized when the Haiyang Shiyou-981 oil rig was towed to a location in the South China Sea claimed by both sides. The incident sparked angry protests across Vietnam and a confrontation at sea until the rig was pulled out two months later.


A large amphibious ship can support via Apache/LCH/Rudra/Dhruv, Super Dvora & other FAC & Landing Craft launched from well deck and troops with support weapons supported for significant durations.

Remember INS Airavat in the same area? :wink:

4. Civilian evacuation from conflict zones under combat situation

Indians work all over the world, including dangerous locations listed above. For evacuation of Indians from conflict zones like Lebanon & Libya under combat conditions, large Amphibious Ships are required that can accommodate large number of troops, medical staff & evacuees.

5. Anti Piracy

Sustained Anti Piracy operations using equipment & forces listed above.

6. Disaster Relief

When a cyclone or Tsunami strikes, a large Amphibious Ship can provide fast response and a floating sustainable base for disaster relief forces and heavy engineering equipment like earthmovers, cranes etc.

Its onboard power generation can power small cities, and could provide emergency power to shore facilities.

Any more reasons required for building strong amphibious forces and large amphibious ships?

nash
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nash » 25 Oct 2014 16:22

TIMES NOW ‏@timesnow 12m12 minutes ago

Six submarines worth about Rs. 50,000 crore for Indian Navy to be built in India. (PTI)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby dinesha » 25 Oct 2014 18:49

Tarmak007 posted in it's FB page:

#BreakingNews Unconfirmed sources tell @writetake that there's some trouble reported on board a ship. Sketchy details. Can't just confirm.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 25 Oct 2014 23:27

wouldn't the coco island be equivalent to a ONGC oil rig in the South China Sea?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 26 Oct 2014 02:23

Interesting read on how the USN's P-8s,which the IN has acquired,will prosecute PLAN subs.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/as-china ... 1414166686

As China Deploys Nuclear Submarines, U.S. P-8 Poseidon Jets Snoop on them.
By Jeremy Page
Oct. 24, 2014
The P-8 Poseidon is one of the U.S. military’s most advanced surveillance aircrafts. It’s been deployed to Okinawa, Japan for one main reason: to monitor China’s growing submarine fleet.

OKINAWA, Japan—Swooping down to 500 feet over the western Pacific, Cmdr. Bill Pennington pilots his U.S. Navy P-8 Poseidon surveillance aircraft toward an unidentified vessel off southern Japan.

In the back of the plane, a heavily modified Boeing BA +0.17% 737, the crew homes in on the vessel using a barrage of surveillance equipment, including radar, GPS and infrared cameras.

Further down the fuselage stand rows of tube-shaped sonar buoys that the crew can catapult into the sea and that float for up to eight hours as they track objects underwater.

This is a dummy run: Today’s target is a Singaporean container ship, and the P-8 roars by without dropping the buoys. But the aircraft is designed to hunt a far more elusive, and potentially dangerous, quarry: Chinese submarines.

Read More
Soldiers stand on guard next to a Chinese navy nuclear-missile submarine at the Qingdao base in eastern China. Yin Haiyang/Color China Photo/Associated Press
China’s Submarine Fleet Adds Nuclear-Strike Capability, Altering Strategic Balance Undersea
Underwater Drones Join Microphones to Listen for Chinese Nuclear Submarines
When Sub Goes Silent, Who Has Control of Its Nuclear Warheads?

It is one of six P-8 jets the U.S. has sent to its Kadena air base in Okinawa since December as part of its strategy of “rebalancing” toward Asia, deploying more military and diplomatic resources to the region in response to China’s growing firepower and assertiveness.

Okinawa is integral to that strategy because it flanks the East China Sea site of a bitter territorial dispute between China and Japan. And it houses the closest U.S. base to the South China Sea, where China’s maritime claims overlap with those of the Philippines, another U.S. ally.

Okinawa also sits next to one of the main chokepoints, the Miyako Strait, that U.S. officials say Chinese subs have used in recent years to enter the Pacific. “If we have history, if there’s a trend of them getting from point A to point B, then we’ll exploit that,” says Cmdr. Pennington. He calls the P-8 a “game-changer,” despite some criticism in the U.S. of the $34 billion the Pentagon is spending on developing and buying the planes.

The jet is designed to replace the old propeller-driven P-3 Orions in Okinawa that were built to hunt Soviet subs and have been flying since the 1960s. The P-8 can drop and monitor up to 64 “sonobuoys,” twice the P-3’s capacity.






A U.S. Navy P-8 Poseidon flies over the Western Pacific, one of six deployed to Okinawa to help anti-submarine forces in the area. Dominic Nahr/Magnum for The Wall

The new aircraft can also reach a target up to 1,200 nautical miles away—about 300 miles further than the P-3—and remain on station for four hours before flying home.

“That allows us to get to the southern parts of the South China Sea. We do that quite often,” says Capt. Mike Parker, Commander of the U.S. Navy’s Task Force 72, which conducts marine reconnaissance in Asia. “We want to be able to locate those submarines and if needs be, let them know that we know where they are.”

The P-8s’ operations can bring them into confrontation with Chinese forces. In August, the Pentagon said a Chinese jet fighter had flown dangerously close to a U.S. P-8 during an interception near Hainan island, site of one of China’s submarine bases. China’s defense ministry publicly said its pilot flew safely and demanded that the U.S. cease surveillance operations near its base.

But the U.S., which says those operations are in international airspace, is taking steps to allow the P-8s even more time over the South China Sea, by negotiating agreements with surrounding countries to use their airfields as launchpads for sub-hunting flights, say people familiar with those discussions.

The P-8’s additional range—and the importance of such regional launchpads—were both clearly demonstrated when the aircraft joined the search for the missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 earlier this year.

As during that search, the U.S. also envisions working more closely with other countries in the region that are upgrading their anti-sub aircraft fleets. The plan is for the P-8s to work in conjunction with Triton aerial drones, the first of which is expected to be deployed to the Pacific island of Guam in 2017, according to senior U.S. Navy officers.






The P-8's crew can catapult tube-shaped sonar buoys from the jet that then float as they listen for submarines underwater. Dominic Nahr/Magnum for The Wall Street Journal

Yet, for all their extra speed, range and sonar buoys, the P-8s rely on the basic sub-hunting techniques of the Cold War. Part science and part instinct, undersea warfare is rooted in the complex physics of the ocean.

Neither satellites nor radar can detect objects underwater. The most effective way to find a sub is still by using sonar equipment to listen for its engine, or to bounce sound signals—or “pings”—off its metallic body.

Submariners avoid detection by keeping their engines quiet, avoiding outgoing communications and remaining below the “thermal layer”—between warmer water near the surface and colder water below—that deflects sonar pings.

The P-8s also work with satellites that monitor submarine bases, with undersea microphones that listen for passing subs and with surface ships that tow large arrays of sonar equipment. Once over a potential target, the P-8 drops its sonar buoys in a grid, then circles overhead gathering the data that they transmit.

Those data are displayed on a screen in the back of the plane and analyzed by specialists like Naval Aircrewman Operator 1st Class Robert Pillars, who is trained to recognize the acoustic signature of a Chinese sub.

“If there’s a submarine there and it’s within range of a sonobuoy, I’ll find it,” he says, standing in the back of the P-8 after its sortie. “It’s kind of an art because you can go after the same boat twice and it’ll sound different both times. It’s about training and instinct.”

Until recently, finding Chinese subs was relatively easy. Many were old diesel models, which spotters could find when they surfaced every few hours to “snorkel”—run the engines that charge their electric batteries. The reactors on China’s early nuclear subs were even noisier, say Western naval officers.

In recent years, however, China has made advances in quieting its diesel subs, many of which use technology that lets them run their engines for long periods on liquid oxygen without surfacing for air, say Chinese and Western military experts.

In 2006, U.S. officials were stunned when a Chinese diesel-powered Song-class sub surfaced within torpedo range of a U.S. aircraft carrier, the Kitty Hawk, without being detected in advance, say U.S. officers briefed on the incident.

“China’s now got some very quiet subs, and that makes our job more challenging,” says Capt. Parker. “If you’re not very good, you won’t find them.”

Since the Kitty Hawk incident, the U.S. has stepped up anti-sub patrols. But China has also deployed large numbers of ships, aircraft and missiles that appear to be designed to prevent U.S. forces from monitoring waters near its coast, say Chinese and Western military experts.

In 2009, five Chinese ships surrounded the USNS Impeccable—one of the U.S. Navy’s most advanced anti-sub ships—in international waters near a submarine base on Hainan.

Last November, China suddenly established an air-defense identification zone over the East China Sea and warned of unspecified “defensive measures” against aircraft that entered without identifying themselves in advance.

Many U.S. officials now fear that China may declare another zone over the South China Sea—although Beijing has said repeatedly in recent months that it has no such plans. China’s ultimate goal, those officials believe, is to turn the South China Sea into a safe haven for its subs much like the bastions from which Soviet subs operated in the Cold War.

If Chinese aircraft and surface ships can keep U.S. anti-submarine forces at bay, that would let China’s subs patrol safely near its shores and slip unnoticed into the deeper waters of the Pacific.

“That would be like the Cold War,” says Capt. Parker. “It’s what the Soviets used to do.”

Karan M
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Oct 2014 03:00

Journalist under Govt scanner:
Nitin Gokhale
Ritu Sarin
Muzammil Jaleel
Praveen Swami
Saikat Datta
Rana Ayyub
Manu Pubby
Prabal Dhal Samanta
12:00pm - 23 Oct 14

Lutyens spice run by Saggy Ghose apparently. Why no shekhar Gupta and why Gokhale?blatter is a patriot, former....

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby malushahi » 26 Oct 2014 05:16

^^^ why ritu sarin?

Kashi
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kashi » 26 Oct 2014 06:47

malushahi wrote:^^^ why ritu sarin?


Not sure about her, but I thought Nitin Gokhale was fine

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby wig » 26 Oct 2014 11:34

a brief article on the Midgets submarines that the navy proposes to acquire

The defence ministry today ordered the building of midget submarines, also called “manned torpedoes”, a super-special project to deliver and recover commandos in twos and threes.

Going by the innocuous abbreviation SOB/SDV, which expands to “special operations boats/swimmer delivery vehicle”, the two midget submarines ordered to be built in an Indian shipyard have been approved for an initial cost of Rs 2,000 crore.

The navy projected a need for midget submarines, which weigh less than 150 tonnes, after the 26/11 attacks.

In a typical operation involving midgets, the commandos in it “swim out” of either a larger vessel (a ship or a larger submarine) or a berth at a coast, go underwater to the intended target, attach mines and return to base without giving up their location. Midget submarines are capable only of short-range operations.

The navy’s marine commandos (MARCOS) will be expected to be given the midgets, which are also called “Chariots”.

The decision to order the midgets marks the revival of a nearly 45-year-old project. A few were also acquired and based in Mumbai in 1975, a few years after Pakistan’s navy too acquired midgets from an Italian firm.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1141026/j ... EyZEtnrZjo

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 26 Oct 2014 12:00

^ this must be L&T.


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