Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

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chackojoseph
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 08 Dec 2014 17:14

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Britian is an irrelevant non power now. They have no capabilities and even lesser appetite for action than they Indian govt and elite. However if this is a proxy for the west encircling shias then I do agree with you. Britian has a large and very vocal Sunni muslim population and are one of the largest manpower for ISIS.


UK is very influential in most of Middle East. It makes sense not to let it go. O/T.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 08 Dec 2014 18:35

The imperialists and neo-colonialists are at it again! The (evil) empire is returning East of Suez back into IOR/Gulf waters. Another development for India to factor in. The move is clearly aimed at encircling Iran and imposing a stranglehold upon energy supplies transiting the Gulf.It makes India's strat. energy supplies from the Gulf more at risk should conflict "engulf" the world's most volatile region,(pun intended) and diversification of supplies just as China has done cutting a massive $400B deal with Russia.The GOI would do well to follow China's example and diversify its energy supplies.

Britain is going to establish a permanenet base in the Gulf at Bahrein,where the locals mostly Shiites are being suppressed under the Saudi jackboot


I expect India to be very comfortable with RN returning to the region. There is a bigger fish to fry than Iran.

I would expect this move to help the IN.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby abhik » 08 Dec 2014 18:47

^^^
How does it help the IN?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_26622 » 09 Dec 2014 03:13

RN and british folks still live in the past - consider themselves as world conquerors and like to send expeditionary forces. Wait for another 20 years and they will hardly be able to send one armed soldier. No point is wasting time on them, just be wary about their intentions to keep milking and stealing from developing countries.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 09 Dec 2014 05:40

^^^
How does it help the IN?


Short OT answer: nations have interests. There are lot of overlapping interests (for IN/RN/FrN/USN/etc) in the region (ISIS, Jihadi PN, A;stan changing direction, China trying to expand - into the IoR, etc).

they will hardly be able to send one armed soldier


Neither will Bhutan/Myanmar/BD/SL/etc, yet India is investing in them.

What they may be able to do (harm) is as imp as what they may not be able to do (help).


IMHO, the IN will become the pivotal service in India. They will cast a huge shadow over both the IAF and the IA.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 09 Dec 2014 05:42

Maritime surveillance goes hi-tech

At the click of a mouse, the Indian Navy will be able to track the movement of ships and fishing boats plying in the waters all along India’s 7,500-km-long coastline. It has set up a Command Centre in Gurgaon which will receive real-time radar feed and pictures taken by high-definition cameras, satellites and maritime surveillance aircraft. The footage will be exactly the same as captured by 46 coastal radar stations now operating in remote areas of the country.

Called the Information Management Analysis Centre (IMAC), the command post will enable the Indian Navy and other stakeholders in coastal security to take effective action in case a rogue ship or boat is detected.

This R450-crore project, also known as National Command, Control, Communication and Intelligence Centre (NC3I), was launched soon after the 26/11 attacks in Mumbai, when Pakistani terrorists managed to reach the city undetected due to gaps in coastal surveillance. The Command Centre, which is the nodal centre of the NC3I network, will go a long way in plugging these gaps through round-the-clock surveillance by radars, high-definition electro optic cameras and satellites, according to Admiral Kishan Pandey, assistant chief of naval staff communication, space and network centric operations.

An officer sitting at his console in the Gurgaon centre can access real time information on his computer screen about traffic of ships and boats in his designated zone, be it waters of Chennai or remote islands in Andaman & Nicobar. In the aftermath of the Mumbai terror attacks, at least 46 coastal radar stations at strategic locations in all the nine littoral states continuously monitor sea lanes. These stations in turn relay information to six core centres located in Gandhinagar (Gujarat), Mumbai, Chennai, Port Blair, Visakhapatnam and Kochi.

With the main centre at Gurgaon becoming functional, which is 80% indigenised, the officer will also get the information or visual data as seen by his counterparts manning the radar stations. All the stations, core centres and main command posts are connected with a high-tech computer network through especially-developed Coastal Surveillance and Decision Support software system designed and managed by the Navy.

The ‘Decision making or Decision support software’ as it is called has been bought from the US-based company Raytheon, but has been customised by the in-house naval IT software experts in developing their own algorithms. “It is hack-proof after being certified by Scientific Analyst Group under the wings of DRDO,” Pandey explained. The software has incorporated data about fishing boats and trawlers engaged in their trade in Indian waters through Automatic Identification System (AIS) chips. However, 30,000-odd small fishing boats are yet to be issued these chips as fishermen are demanding them free of cost. The state governments, through their respective fisheries departments, are likely to complete this process in the coming months.

There are more than 200,000 small and medium-size fishing boats and 60,000 to 70,000 boats venturing out into the sea to catch fish every day. The AIS covers boats weighing more than 300 tonnes or those that are 20 metres long. The Navy is urging the state governments to issue AIS to smaller boats to ensure that all boats out in the sea are identifiable.

Information about all merchant ships, be it Indian or foreign, passing through Indian waters or close by is also part of the software as it is now linked to the World Shipping Register. This will help the officer concerned to track the movement of the ships and take steps if any of them deviates from its path or is found sailing in a suspicious manner.

The Navy and Coast Guard, with the help of state governments, are going to install transponders in all private boats of Indian fishermen to locate their position in the sea. These transponders will be connected through the NC31.

The Navy will install 1,000 transponders in private boats of Gujarat fishermen as a pilot project. The installation of more transponders will depend on the success rate. The 350-km coastal area from Karwar to Bhatkal and Mangalore will be monitored closely due to vulnerabilities.

According to defence minister Manohar Parrikar, who had recently inaugurated the Gurgaon centre, “There is no radar station in these areas and hence in past some years, terror exports would take place from these regions especially in Bhatkal. Apart from that there is no such radar station from Ratnagiri to Goa. Even, Goa was becoming a smuggling centre some 30 years ago. These areas must come under the surveillance to minimise anti-national activities.”

The IMAC is envisaged to function as the nodal centre for collecting inputs from various static sensors and radars that were installed along the coast under the Coastal Surveillance Network (CSN) as well as from satellite imageries. Its tasks include analysing these inputs and disseminating them among concerned agencies to ensure a gapless surveillance of the entire coastline. The centre forms part of the National Command Control and Communication and Intelligence Network (NC3IN) which connects 20 naval and 31 coast guard stations along the coast that have been jointly developed by the Indian Navy, the Indian Coast Guard and Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL). The BEL has set up the coastal radars that are running on X and S band.

The IMAC at present has the ability to track marine vessels operating between the Malacca Strait and the Persian Gulf and can trigger off an alarm if any ship’s movement is deemed suspicious.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 09 Dec 2014 06:17

The Navy and Coast Guard, with the help of state governments, are going to install transponders in all private boats of Indian fishermen to locate their position in the sea. These transponders will be connected through the NC31.



Obvious weak point-spoofing, hijacking.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby prahaar » 09 Dec 2014 09:10

NRao wrote:
^^^
How does it help the IN?


Short OT answer: nations have interests. There are lot of overlapping interests (for IN/RN/FrN/USN/etc) in the region (ISIS, Jihadi PN, A;stan changing direction, China trying to expand - into the IoR, etc).

they will hardly be able to send one armed soldier


Neither will Bhutan/Myanmar/BD/SL/etc, yet India is investing in them.

What they may be able to do (harm) is as imp as what they may not be able to do (help).


IMHO, the IN will become the pivotal service in India. They will cast a huge shadow over both the IAF and the IA.


What kind of time frame do you have in mind? Also any preconditions for such a situation to take shape?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VijayN » 09 Dec 2014 10:09

Maritime surveillance goes hi-tech <SNIP>


Would be real technological feat if the NC3I can be enhanced to detect subsurface vessels, provide ability to collect radar signatures of military ships, etc. Perhaps a chain of Sonars should be installed underwater just like the coastal radar network.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 09 Dec 2014 10:14

sanjaykumar wrote:The Navy and Coast Guard, with the help of state governments, are going to install transponders in all private boats of Indian fishermen to locate their position in the sea. These transponders will be connected through the NC31.



Obvious weak point-spoofing, hijacking.


Yes definitely , but there are other sensors which can check if that is indeed the case.The system has a lot of potential for incremental additions and improvements with Radar and optical satellite inputs

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 09 Dec 2014 10:25

NRao wrote:
^^^
How does it help the IN?


Short OT answer: nations have interests. There are lot of overlapping interests (for IN/RN/FrN/USN/etc) in the region (ISIS, Jihadi PN, A;stan changing direction, China trying to expand - into the IoR, etc).

they will hardly be able to send one armed soldier


Neither will Bhutan/Myanmar/BD/SL/etc, yet India is investing in them.

What they may be able to do (harm) is as imp as what they may not be able to do (help).


IMHO, the IN will become the pivotal service in India. They will cast a huge shadow over both the IAF and the IA.


Yes the Indian Navy has to be , after all India is just a giant peninsula ! The Naval aviation wing would also be probably bigger than the Royal Air Force pretty soon !

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 09 Dec 2014 10:30

UK will soon find its desire to project power more than its ability (pun intended :mrgreen: )

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Paul » 09 Dec 2014 14:38

Wait till u see the Royal navy in a faceoff with the Chinese in the next James Bond flick

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 09 Dec 2014 18:50

What kind of time frame do you have in mind?


As far as I can tell - based on open source material - it has already started, just not publicized.

Yes the Indian Navy has to be , after all India is just a giant peninsula !


A very valid, but old thinking.

The reasons I provided has nothing to do with "peninsula".

(Actually the question I have is would India develop a robust Marine wing. IMHO India will be compelled to do so.) ????

Would be real technological feat ...................


"Network"s and "Sensor"s. IIoT.

Countries like Singapore plan on being 100% wired ...................... by 2020!!! With built in video analytics, etc.

Modi calls it 100 smart cities. No diff.

Obvious weak point-spoofing, hijacking


But, this is a major upgrade from what is there today, right? This is a huge upgrade IMHO.

The holes can be plugged. Funds is all that is required. The technology exists.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shaun » 09 Dec 2014 23:51

Image

IAC-1

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Multatuli » 10 Dec 2014 02:42

Should India buy the Chakra II (and perhaps other nuclear attack submarines leased from Russia) when the lease ends?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 10 Dec 2014 10:14

Options to extend lease available.News about the poss. of the Sea Gripen arriving for the IN.

Rediff.com » News » Brazil opens the door for Indian navy and Gripen
Brazil opens the door for Indian navy and Gripen

October 30, 2014
SAAB's Sea Gripen constitutes a new option as the INS Vikrant's light fighter. Ajai Shukla reports

Brazil's decision to buy the Swedish JAS-39E/F Gripen (or Gripen NG) has opened a tantalising possibility for India's defence ministry, which is frustrated after 33 months of negotiations with French company, Dassault on the proposed purchase of 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft.

On Monday, Swedish defence giant, Saab, which builds the Gripen, announced Brazil had signed a contract for 36 Gripen NG fighters for $5.475 billion.

Brazil chose the Gripen NG over the Rafale (Dassault, France) and the F/A-18 Super Hornet (Boeing, USA).

Brazil will now ask Saab to develop the Sea Gripen, says defence analyst, INS Jane's. Twenty-four of these "navalised" fighters will equip Brazil's aircraft carrier, Sao Paulo.

IHS Jane's also highlights the Indian Navy's need for the Sea Gripen for two carriers that Cochin Shipyard is building -- the 40,000-tonne INS Vikrant and a larger, yet unnamed, successor referred to as the Future Indigenous Carrier.

So far, the Indian Navy had planned to fly a naval version of the indigenous light combat aircraft -- the Naval Tejas -- from these carriers. However, the Naval Tejas, which the Defence Research & Development Organisation is developing, may not be ready for service by 2018, when the Vikrant will be commissioned.

The Sea Gripen constitutes a new option as the Vikrant's light fighter. The navy already has a medium fighter, the MiG-29K, on order from Russia.

Indian analysts, like Manoj Joshi of Observer Research Foundation, say buying the Sea Gripen would let the DRDO engage Saab as a design partner for the Naval Tejas and Tejas Mark II, both advanced versions of the current Tejas Mark I.

In 2011, then DRDO chief V K Saraswat had approached Saab to collaborate in developing the Tejas Mark II. In 2012, the DRDO and Saab held detailed discussions. In January 2013, Saab was issued a Request for Proposal, which the DRDO examined and discussed. Yet, nothing came of it.

The DRDO's interest in Saab stems from the numerous technical parallels between the Tejas and the Gripen. Both are light fighters in the 14-tonne class.

Whilst developing the Gripen NG, Saab changed the engine to the more powerful General Electric F-414 turbofan, and added more fuel; which is exactly what the DRDO proposes for the LCA Mark II. Fitting the bulkier, heavier F-414 into the Tejas would require re-engineering of the fuselage; a problem that Saab has promised to solve.

"The greatest benefit to the Tejas Mark II could be from the Gripen's superb networking. Aerial combat is no longer about eye-catching aerobatics; it is about data links; networking, and cockpit avionics, which is Saab's strength," says Joshi.

The DRDO was also hoping to learn from Saab's maintenance philosophy, which has made the Gripen the world's most easy-to-maintain fighter. According to independent estimations, the Gripen requires three to five man-hours of maintenance per flight hour. That means, after an hour-long mission, 6-10 technicians require only 30 minutes to put the fighter back in the air.

In contrast, the Rafale is estimated to require 15 maintenance man-hours per flight hour; while the F-35 Lightening II requires 30-35 man-hours.

According to a Jane's study, the operating cost of the Gripen is $4,700 per hour. The Rafale is thrice as expensive, at $15,000 per hour.

"The Tejas Mark I has not been designed with operational availability in mind. It is a maintenance nightmare, with sub-systems inaccessible. The Tejas Mark II will need Saab's help in radically re-engineered these," says a DRDO engineer.

Senior Saab officials say, off the record, they are keen to partner India in developing the Tejas Mark II. They say the Tejas Mark II, built cheaply in large numbers, would eliminate the need for a heavy, costly, highly sophisticated fighter like the Rafale. Saab sees major profit in co-developing the Tejas Mark II.

Brazil's contract for 36 Gripen NGs comes on top of Stockholm's decision to buy 60 of these fighters for the Swedish Air Force.

In 2011, Switzerland too had selected the Gripen over the Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon. However, in an astonishing, nationwide referendum on the proposed $3.5-billion purchase, the Swiss people voted to spend the money instead on education, transport and pensions.

The current version of the Gripen NG, the Gripen D, is currently in operational service with the Swedish, Czech, Hungarian, South African and Royal Thai Air Forces, and also with the UK Empire Test Pilots' School.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby uddu » 10 Dec 2014 10:56

Was Tejas offered to Brazil?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 10 Dec 2014 10:59

I don't think that it has been offered to anyone as of now,simply because it has yet to enter into IAF service. Once it has been out through its paces and is in service,then one has no doubt that foreign air forces,esp. those of developing nations will take a keen interest if we can keep costs down and production humming.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby uddu » 10 Dec 2014 11:00

The image seems to be an old one. Before launch.
The ship was painted during launch.
http://media2.intoday.in/indiatoday/ima ... 051659.jpg
http://www.firstpost.com/wp-content/upl ... nt_PTI.jpg

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby uddu » 10 Dec 2014 11:03

I think this time is right to start offering Tejas. FOC is very near. Time to get some good customers.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 10 Dec 2014 12:43

Sea Gripen is likely to be a development of the Gripen F twin seater as per a recent post I read elsewhere- and the Gripen F twin seater (which is where Brazil gets some development work) itself isn't going to be ready by 2018.

So where is the question of the Sea Gripen (which hasn't been funded as yet by Brazil, nor a part of the existing deal with Saab) filling in the role of the N-LCA? The N-LCA OTOH is about to go in for land based STOBAR tests and the IN should instead consider a paper airplane in whose design it has no say??

Retarded logic, really. the IN being the sanest of the 3 services, will likely just knuckle down and look to the N-LCA Mk2 as the airplane of choice. Such unsolicited reports do one thing though- increase the pressure on the ADA/HAL combine to deliver.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 10 Dec 2014 14:00

The report indicates/appears that it is we who have approached SAAB for assistance on the Tejas project. No service will wait endlessly for the baby to be delivered, least of all the IN.It already has approx. 50 29Ks on order and if the NLCA is delayed could order more of the same. There is scope for the twin-seat NLCA version as naval AJTs,which the IN will require about 2 doz. for its aviators.NLCA superior to the Hawks.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 10 Dec 2014 14:26

Multatuli wrote:Should India buy the Chakra II (and perhaps other nuclear attack submarines leased from Russia) when the lease ends?


They may not sell so easily. It may end up like another gorshkov deal but with very expensive infrastructure implications.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 10 Dec 2014 15:40

True.A lot would depend upon the condition of the sub,operating costs,etc..However,infrastructure being planned for the N-base/s will have to take into account the type of subs that will be based there. So there may be some long-term plan to operate the type if more Akulas are planned for.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 10 Dec 2014 15:44

Philip wrote:The report indicates/appears that it is we who have approached SAAB for assistance on the Tejas project. No service will wait endlessly for the baby to be delivered, least of all the IN.It already has approx. 50 29Ks on order and if the NLCA is delayed could order more of the same. There is scope for the twin-seat NLCA version as naval AJTs,which the IN will require about 2 doz. for its aviators.NLCA superior to the Hawks.


Assistance on the LCA-Navy or Tejas Mk2 is one thing- buying it off the shelf as AS is proposing is an altogether different thing.

I'm all for using Saab as a consultant with their expertise in aerodynamics, estate management and data-linking being renowned. But just because the LCA-Navy won't be in service by 2018-19 doesn't mean that the Sea Gripen is a viable option. It isn't going to be in service by even 2022.

first off, a contract has to be signed by the Brazilian Navy to even start actual development work on it. As of now, what they've done is hire a bunch of engineers in the UK, have them do some studies and come up with a very high level design. And there is some interest from the Brazilian Navy for the Sea Gripen, but no firm intent as yet. Which means, its all up in the air as far as the IN is concerned.

But as we've seen with the Gripen E as well, theoretical work and the actual flying prototype will see variations. The Gripen E being nearly 1000 kgs over the original empty weight estimate that Saab floated around when it was trying to rope in customers.

OTOH, you have a NP-1 prototype with NP-2 almost ready to fly. Its been invested in by the IN, it has seen issues, resolutions and orders for additional prototypes. That is a firm investment and intent. And now we are at the stage where actual STOBAR tests will be carried out. So, bringing this bogey of the Sea Gripen at this stage is not very well thought out.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 10 Dec 2014 16:29

The congis, the NAC and the saint have really dropped us into it.


‘China's submarine noose around India’



Sandeep Unnithan, , India Today, 4 December 2014,

Submarine game: How China is using undersea vessels to project power in India's neighbourhood



Four decades after the 1971 India-Pakistan war, India's intelligence agencies are once again scanning a stretch of coastline in southern Bangladesh. Cox's Bazar was rocketed and strafed by INS Vikrant's fighter aircraft to cut off the enemy's retreat into the Bay of Bengal. Today, 43 years later, it sets the stage for China's dramatic entry into India's eastern seaboard.



Assessments from the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) and naval intelligence say the Bangladesh Navy will station two ex-Chinese Ming-class submarines on bases that are less than 1,000 km away from Visakhapatnam, home to the Indian Navy's nuclear powered submarine fleet and the Defence Research and Development Organisation's (DRDO) missile test ranges at Balasore.



The developments on India's Arabian Sea flank are equally ominous. Intelligence officials say that over the next decade, China will help Pakistan field submarines with the ability to launch nuclear-tipped missiles from sea. Submarines, analysts say, are China's instrument of choice to not just challenge the Indian Navy's strategy of sea domination but also to undermine India's second-strike capability. These developments have been accompanied by a flurry of Chinese submarine appearances in the Indian Ocean this year-Beijing sent two nuclear submarines and a conventional submarine. Two of them made port calls in Colombo, triggering concern in New Delhi.



Toehold in the Bay



"No one interested in geopolitics can afford to ignore the Bay of Bengal any longer," geopolitical analyst Robert Kaplan wrote in a seminal essay in Stratfor in November. "This is the newold centre of the world, joining the two demographic immensities of the Indian subcontinent and East Asia." For India, the Bay of Bengal is the launch pad for a 'Look East' policy that has received renewed attention under Prime Minister Narendra Modi.



The Indian Navy is enhancing force levels at its Visakhapatnam naval base even as it has begun building a secret base for a proposed fleet of nuclearpowered submarines at Rambilli, south of Visakhapatnam. Equipped with the 700-km range B05 submarine launched missiles, the Arihant-class submarines will have to patrol closer to the shores of a potential adversary. But equipped with the 3,500-km range K-4 missiles currently being developed by the DRDO, the Arihant and her sister submarines can cover both Pakistan and China with nuclear-tipped missiles from within the Bay of Bengal, providing the "robust second-strike capability" as stated in India's nuclear doctrine.



Inputs suggest Bangladesh has acquired land and fenced locations at the Kutubdia Channel near Cox's Bazar and the Rabnabad Channel near West Bengal. Kutubdia, intelligence officials say, is likely to feature enclosed concrete 'pens' to hide submarines. The possibility of Chinese submarines using this base provides a fresh equation to the strategic calculus.



"Our submarines become susceptible to tracking from the time they leave harbour," says veteran submariner and former Southern Naval Command chief vice-admiral K.N. Sushil (retired). "But a far more worrying strategy is China's ability to be able to threaten our assured second-strike capability. That effectively tips the deterrence balance."



West Coast Worries



Of greater long-term worry to Indian analysts is a strategic submarine project China finalised with Pakistan in 2010. Intelligence sources say this three-part programme will transform the Pakistan Navy into a strategic force capable of launching a sea-based nuclear weapons strike. Pakistan will build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi. Intelligence sources believe the S-30 submarines are based on the Chinese Qing class submarines-3,000-tonne conventional submarines which can launch three 1,500-km range nuclear-tipped cruise missiles from its conning tower. A Very Low Frequency (VLF) station at Turbat, in southern Balochistan, will communicate with these submerged strategic submarines. The Project S-26 and S-30 submarines will augment Pakistan's fleet of five French-built submarines, enhance their ability to challenge the Indian Navy's aircraft carrier battle groups and carry a stealthy nuclear deterrent. "Submarines are highly effective force multipliers because they tie down large numbers of naval forces," says a senior naval official.





Steel sharks on silk route



Speaking in Indonesia's Parliament last October, Chinese President Xi Jinping articulated a "21st century Maritime Silk Road". His vision calls for investments in port facilities across south and south-east Asia to complement a north Asian route. This year, the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) put steel into Xi's vision. In February, a Shangclass nuclear-powered attack submarine made China's first declared deployment in the Indian Ocean. This was followed by port calls made by a Han-class submarine in Colombo to coincide with a state visit by President Xi and a visit by a Song-class conventional submarine in November.



China's heightened activity in the Indian Ocean region is underscored by investments in a new port in Gwadar at the mouth of the Strait of Hormuz, Hambantota port in Sri Lanka, a container facility in Chittagong and Kyaukpyu port in Myanmar. "Such developments have sharpened China's geopolitical rivalry with India, which enjoys an immense geographic advantage in the Indian Ocean," says Brahma Chellaney of the Centre for Policy Research. "Aspects related to their (Chinese) deployment in international waters are part of securing their maritime interests," Navy chief Admiral Robin K. Dhowan told journalists in Delhi on December 3.



China's new military posture reflects the 'Malacca dilemma' faced by the world's largest oil importer. Close to 80 per cent of China's crude oil imports of 11 million barrels per day, the life blood of its economy, is shipped through the narrow Malacca Strait. Any disruption to this could threaten its economic growth. "Hence, China's economic interests in the Indian Ocean have now taken on an overt military dimension," says an intelligence official.



Naval intelligence officials who correctly predicted that China would use anti-piracy patrols as a pretext for deployments in the Indian Ocean feel vindicated. Their prognosis of this game of 'weiqi'-a game of Chinese chess which uses encirclement, is gloomy. "A full-scale Chinese deployment in the Indian Ocean is inevitable," an admiral told India Today.



"You can only watch it and prepare yourself for it." The preparations include acquisitions of long-range maritime patrol aircraft such as the US-made P8-I Poseidon, investment in anti-submarine warfare and inducting new submarines and helicopters to fill up critical deficiencies in force levels.



Measured Response



China's submarine thrust into South Asia coincides with Narendra Modi's renewed emphasis on securing India's perimeter. "India's response has to be nuanced, a mixture of coercion and largesse," says Jayadeva Ranade, a former RAW official and member of the National Security Advisory Board. While the Manmohan Singh-led UPA government scoffed at encirclement theories, the new Government is clearly concerned over the creeping Chinese presence.



National Security Adviser Ajit Doval voiced India's concerns at the 'Galle Dialogue' in Sri Lanka on December 1. He cited a 1971 United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) resolution mooted by Sri Lanka calling on the "great powers to halt further escalation and expansion of their military presence in the Indian Ocean".



India's defence diplomacy has been severely limited by its inability to offer military hardware to offset the Chinese presence. Over half the military hardware of Bangladesh and Sri Lanka are of Chinese origin. In 2008, India called off a plan to transfer the INS Vela to the Myanmar Navy when it discovered the vintage Russian-built submarine was past its service life.



When plans to transfer hardware materialise, they are too feeble to make a difference-a solitary helicopter such as the one gifted to Nepal by Modi in November and a small ex-Indian naval patrol craft gifted to Seychelles recently. Often, there is a demand for capabilities where India itself is deficient. Bangladeshi officials stumped Indian Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) officials last year when they asked India, and not China, to provide submarines. The Indian Navy is down to just 13 aging conventional submarines. The MEA suggested Bangladesh buy Russian submarines instead. Their efforts are yet to bear fruit. It is a gap China willingly fills.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srin » 10 Dec 2014 17:22

Philip wrote:The report indicates/appears that it is we who have approached SAAB for assistance on the Tejas project. No service will wait endlessly for the baby to be delivered, least of all the IN.It already has approx. 50 29Ks on order and if the NLCA is delayed could order more of the same. There is scope for the twin-seat NLCA version as naval AJTs,which the IN will require about 2 doz. for its aviators.NLCA superior to the Hawks.


AS's peddling of Saab consultancy is getting a bit tiresome.
If you watch the Aero India '13 seminar of NLCA by Capt Maolonkar, it is very clear that IN is in for the long haul. They aren't happy with the issues of NLCA Mk1 but they are confident of resolving most of the issues, but are hopeful of great NLCA Mk2 with all the learning.
Saab doesn't have experience of designing carrier aircraft. The only thing that might help us is the F414 related re-engineering. If at all consultancy is really required, Boeing (because of Shornets) would be a better bet.
Sea Gripen is a paper plane and I think ADA/HAL now know more about carrier planes that Saab does.
There is no great hurry - IN is in this for the long haul and till then, they are perfectly happy with the Mig-29Ks.
This is a great opportunity for us to learn something the hard way with time in hand. We need to back ourselves to do the hard part.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby KiranM » 10 Dec 2014 19:13

I spent 4 hours reading today but it was worth for very second as a gram of gold.

Though munitions and platforms like Backfires/ Flankers with ASCMs like Brahmos may be formidable, they are as effective as ISR platforms to detect & track and ultimately provide targeting data for the shooters; all the while overcoming the various spoofs and deceptions.
This has been brought out by Maksim Tokarev in his paper on Soviet Naval Air Force anti-carrier operations and training during Cold War

The analysis and dissection of the American response to above has been well written by Jon Solomon in the following links (please also do read the comments at the end of each piece);
Part1
Part2
Part3
Part4
Conclusion
Final piece addressing few of Maxims observations from his 4 part series

Above links bring out the need for integrated/ joint training, procedures and operations by blue water surface, subsurface & aviation elements of IN with IAF platforms to target a PLAN taskforce steaming out of the various straits in East Asia. The offensive strategy needs to be honed in parallel with defensive measures with littoral naval units, IA Missile Artillery and IAF for coastal defence, say in A&N.
Thus, freeing up IN carrier task forces for more offensive operations like in SCS or to check Pakistan in case of 2 front war.

For anti-carrier fans who think the evolution of ASBMs, ASCMs (ala fears of PLAN/AFs Access Denial) has made carriers obsolete, you need to read this link: How to hide a Taskforce

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Dec 2014 10:33

Indian Navy Chooses Sikorsky S-70B
The Sikorsky S-70B Seahawk has been selected to meet the Indian Navy’s multi-role helicopter (MRH) requirement. A contract for 16 with an option for eight more is expected to be signed within eight months and will include a complete logistics support and training program. The selection was held up for two years following the controversy over India’s purchase of AgustaWestland AW101 VIP helicopters. The other shortlisted contender was the NH-90 from NH Industries, which is 32 percent owned by AgustaWestland.

The request for proposal mandates that deliveries begin within three years of signing the contract. The last helicopter will be delivered in 48 months from the first delivery], Arvind Walia, Sikorsky regional executive for India and South Asia, told AIN. The Black Hawk variant will conduct anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare (ASuW and ASW) missions, as well as search-and-rescue and other roles.

The Indian Navy variant will include avionics and flexible open-architecture weapons management systems that integrate advanced sonar, 360-degree search radar, modern air-to-surface missiles, and torpedoes for the ASW role. Folding blades and tail will facilitate shipboard storage. “There is no doubt that marketing licenses will be given by the U.S. government for certain mission equipment that will require [clearance],” Walia said. Chief of Naval Staff Admiral RK Dhowan said that the Indian Ministry of Defence is accelerating the decision-making process on acquisitions. “There is a definite change in the culture,” he told AIN at a press conference.

Walia was asked about India’s refusal to sign a communications interoperability and security memorandum of agreement with the U.S., an issue that arose in connection with the Navy’s acquisition of the Boeing P-8I maritime patrol aircraft. India installed its own protected communication systems on that aircraft, including encrypted voice, IFF, satcom and fingerprinting, provided by state-owned companies BEL, ECIL and HAL. “We will cross that bridge when we come to it,” said Walia with reference to the new helicopter buy.

Sikorsky said it had fielded increasingly more capable variants of the S-70B since 1984 “for navies that prefer to acquire a modern, fully integrated ASW/ASuW platform direct from the manufacturer,” a reference to the alternative MH-60R version for the U.S. Navy that is available for export via Lockheed Martin. Sikorsky said that the S-70B is now operational in six countries in Europe, the Middle East, Asia and Latin America, operating aboard frigates and larger naval vessels. The Seahawk series(which includes the SH-60 and MH-60) has accumulated almost four million flight hours logged by more than 800 operational aircraft, the company added.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_28840 » 11 Dec 2014 13:06

KiranM wrote:I spent 4 hours reading today but it was worth for very second as a gram of gold.

Though munitions and platforms like Backfires/ Flankers with ASCMs like Brahmos may be formidable, they are as effective as ISR platforms to detect & track and ultimately provide targeting data for the shooters; all the while overcoming the various spoofs and deceptions.
This has been brought out by Maksim Tokarev in his paper on Soviet Naval Air Force anti-carrier operations and training during Cold War

The analysis and dissection of the American response to above has been well written by Jon Solomon in the following links (please also do read the comments at the end of each piece);
Part1
Part2
Part3
Part4
Conclusion
Final piece addressing few of Maxims observations from his 4 part series

Above links bring out the need for integrated/ joint training, procedures and operations by blue water surface, subsurface & aviation elements of IN with IAF platforms to target a PLAN taskforce steaming out of the various straits in East Asia. The offensive strategy needs to be honed in parallel with defensive measures with littoral naval units, IA Missile Artillery and IAF for coastal defence, say in A&N.
Thus, freeing up IN carrier task forces for more offensive operations like in SCS or to check Pakistan in case of 2 front war.

For anti-carrier fans who think the evolution of ASBMs, ASCMs (ala fears of PLAN/AFs Access Denial) has made carriers obsolete, you need to read this link: How to hide a Taskforce



good read. thanks.

had not heard about NORPAC 82 before this.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_28305 » 11 Dec 2014 14:03

uddu wrote:The image seems to be an old one. Before launch.
The ship was painted during launch.
http://media2.intoday.in/indiatoday/ima ... 051659.jpg
http://www.firstpost.com/wp-content/upl ... nt_PTI.jpg


Uddu ji,
I do think this is the latest pic available.

please notice the superstucture installed. which was not there during the launch.

-Siby

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby soumik » 11 Dec 2014 15:06

sibyt wrote:
uddu wrote:The image seems to be an old one. Before launch.
The ship was painted during launch.
http://media2.intoday.in/indiatoday/ima ... 051659.jpg
http://www.firstpost.com/wp-content/upl ... nt_PTI.jpg


Uddu ji,
I do think this is the latest pic available.

please notice the superstucture installed. which was not there during the launch.

-Siby


@Uddu- the picture is the latest that i know of, i was the one who took it on 01/12/14 using my NIKON D3200 during a visit to cochin.
I had posted this on DFI as bengalraider, it seems it has found it's way here as well.
She's pretty accesible as they have her in a yard that's right next to a public parking.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Dec 2014 20:24


Suraj
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Suraj » 12 Dec 2014 12:30

soumik wrote:@Uddu- the picture is the latest that i know of, i was the one who took it on 01/12/14 using my NIKON D3200 during a visit to cochin.
I had posted this on DFI as bengalraider, it seems it has found it's way here as well.
She's pretty accesible as they have her in a yard that's right next to a public parking.

So is the island visibly attached ? Or is it just in the process of being raised for integration ?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Dec 2014 12:52

It is attached. And so is the flight deck overhang to counterbalance the weight. You can see the overhang peeping out from behind the angled deck and the CIWS platform to the right of the picture.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 12 Dec 2014 23:02


arun
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arun » 13 Dec 2014 13:51

LR-SAM aka Barak 8 will be installed on INS Kolkata in 2015.

Vertical launch unit and MF Star guidance radar is already installed on the INS Kolkatta and all one has to do is “take delivery of the missile, load it and fire” per Capt. Tarun Sobti, CO of the vessel. INS Kolkatta will carry 32 LR-SAM’s:

INS Kolkata to fire long range missile in 2015

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby soumik » 13 Dec 2014 14:57

indranilroy wrote:It is attached. And so is the flight deck overhang to counterbalance the weight. You can see the overhang peeping out from behind the angled deck and the CIWS platform to the right of the picture.



To add to the above, the angled flight deck has also been installed, though i could not take a photograph of it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arun » 13 Dec 2014 17:23

X Posted from the “INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2” thread.

Welcome News about the Arihant.

Sandeep Unnithan writing in India Today informs that Arihant will commence sea trials with a surfaced sortie on Monday December 15th.

Indigenous nuclear powered submarine INS Arihant to head out for sea trials


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