Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

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maz
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby maz » 20 Feb 2015 12:56

I sincerely hope that the decision makers at Naval Aviation Directorate rethink their requirement to make a Seaking out of a ALH. The blade folding capability is a most welcome development. Hopefully HAL can make it work, the IN decides to retrofit all ALHs so the bird can be housed in warship hangars. It will also allow the IN to start phasing away the single engined Chetaks. Reliability issues with the ALH is another matter though. Again, one hopes that HAL and he services methodically troubleshoot and determine root causes and then fix other likely points of catastrophic failure. Will be painstaking work but it can be done. It needs to be done if the bird is to remain a viable, accident free proposition and serve well into the future.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Feb 2015 13:00

I will amend my HWT rant because ships will be launching torps against subs only so the usual 300kg warhead of a HWT is not needed even 150kg might be enough, with a linked decrease in the fuel and engine power needed to maintain the same range and speed. so LR-LWT is probably ok.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 20 Feb 2015 13:02

Maz,

Blade folding is shown only in a model. No one dares to ask a question. All drooling over LUH which appears to be the AI13 model painted green (of all colors) and a glassish cockpit stuck in it with wooden panels holding it visible in pictures. No wonder they are not letting the riffraff anywhere near it. If one looks at the old demo model, the blades are identical. There is a GTV somewhere, couldnt they have released a video of it instead of placing the same old model for LUH. Blade folding looks manual, but there are no good pictures to show its details.

And 0, I repeat 0 information boards and posters so far.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 20 Feb 2015 19:37

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2015 ... val-fleet/

A Look at India’s Home-Grown Naval Fleet

Image
Commissioned on August 16, 2014, the leading ship in the Kolkata-class of guided missile destroyers was built by Mazagon Dock Ltd. in Mumbai. The Indian Navy

Image
INS Kamorta is India’s first indigenously-built stealth anti-submarine warfare corvette and was designed by the navys directorate of naval design and commissioned on Aug. 23, 2014. The Indian Navy

Image
Survey Ship INS Makar was built by Alcock Ashdown Gujarat Ltd. and commissioned on Sept. 21, 2012. The Indian Navy

Image
Multi-role stealth frigate INS Sahyadri was commissioned on July 21, 2012 The Indian Navy


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby titash » 20 Feb 2015 23:57

Singha wrote:being Friday its time for my weekly rant.

there is a mix of vessels in the IN:
- some have no TT at all
- some have only LWT to save cost/space
- some P15 have HWT
- almost all have helicopters with LWT because helis cannot cart the HWTs.

imo we are putting at risk the lives of all the crew not to speak of the vessel with this patchy policy.


Singha-ji,

I thought IN ships are quite heavily armed for the ASW mission by most standards:

Kolkata class: 2 twin tube HWT + 2 RBU 6000 + 2 heavy ASW helos on 7500 tons. Should get HMS+ATAS

Delhi class: 5 tube HWT + 2 RBU 6000 + 2 heavy ASW helos on 7000 tons. Should get HMS+ATAS

Shivalik class: 2 twin tube HWT + 2 RBU 6000 + 2 heavy ASW helos on 6000 tons. Should get HMS+ATAS
Note: I believe the HWT are internal just like on the Talwar class. If not, the Klub has an ASW version (which we hopefully purchased)

Rajput class: 5 tube HWT + 2 RBU 6000 + 1 heavy ASW helo on 5000 tons. Should get HMS+VDS

Talwar class: 2 twin tube HWT + 1 RBU 6000 + 1 AEW helo on 4000 tons. Should get HMS only
Note: These ships are imported and aren't really ASW assets. More like carrier AAW escorts and/or independent merchant raiders

Godavari / Brahmaputra classes: 2 triple tube LWT + 1 heavy ASW helo + 1 light ASW helo on 3500 tons. Should get HMS+VDS
Note: These ships were designed around a large hangar for 2 SeaKings just like the Canadian "Tribal" class; you can call it a design failure, but it proved too much for these small ships

Kamorta class: 2 twin tube HWT + 2 RBU 6000 + 1 heavy ASW helo on 3500 tons. Should get HMS+ATAS
Note: We learnt our lesson from the Godavari / Brahmaputra design failure; no point designing small ships around 2 large helos

Saryu class: helipad to support 1 heavy ASW helo (but hangar for 1 light helo) on 2000 tons. Not sure on HMS
Note: Again, lessons learnt from the Godavari / Brahmaputra ships. But these are second rate patrol vessels for intensive peacetime deployments, not first rate units

Prima facie, wherever the IN could design its own ships instead of importing, we've chosen to use 2 heavy ASW helos (subject to platform's stability) with HMS & ATAS, coupled with a heavy Russian armament of HWT + RBU 6000. Overall it looks like a wise decision.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VibhavS » 21 Feb 2015 00:31

titash wrote: Shivalik class: 2 twin tube HWT + 2 RBU 6000 + 2 heavy ASW helos on 6000 tons. Should get HMS+ATAS
Note: I believe the HWT are internal just like on the Talwar class. If not, the Klub has an ASW version (which we hopefully purchased)


Hi Titash,
Small nitpick the Shivalik's do not have 2 Twin HWT. I researched (googled actually) that for a long time to see what kind of torpedo launchers they have. But only Wiki refers that they have torp launchers on-board. Even BR's own Navy page does not have any mention of the same.

But I do distinctly remember the claims that the Klub missile system has a missle for ASW ops. Similar in concept to ASROC.

Best,
Vib

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VibhavS » 21 Feb 2015 00:41

Singhaji in my humble opinion more than ASW me thinks that the IN lacks in long range Anti Air Warfare capabilities. Our latest and greatest Kolkata carries only 32 BARAK-8 SAMs. Now I understand that our typically expected adversaries don't really have all that many missile platforms to launch a major saturation attack (at least in theory) and they also lack a Brahmos like weapon system. The Navy is also counting on P8 and Drones to catch them proverbially with their pants down while trying to get at us.. :evil:

But still 32 is somewhere between sad and criminal (maybe they are waiting for the Barak 8 to get proven and then see about a longer ranged derivative). Though again I am sure someone somewhere in a white uniform has applied brains to the matter and selected the best path.

I am also hoping that we will see a long range Area Defense SAM developed from AAD or PDV missiles being designed for our domestic ABM system. Project 15B are large enough for carrying a good complement of these missiles.

Last hope is that they will start building larger numbers than 3, 5 and 7 which the Navy has a penchant for ordering. I know I know that they have budgetary constraints ( :roll: ) but as has been pointed out in the forum earlier by so many members more means cheaper for everyone

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Suraj » 21 Feb 2015 02:55

Next Kolkata class ship off twitter:
D64 spotted
Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Feb 2015 08:14

the kolkata class has plenty of room to add another 32 or atleast 16 barak8 somewhere.

cost might be a factor in the current fairly austere fit

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 21 Feb 2015 08:17

Going by number of torpedo tubes or RBUs is a bit misleading , the IN surface ships cannot even detect a Kilo class in silent mode even when latter is next to them. Afaik in no exercise the surface vessels have been able to hunt down a kilo. IN needs a much better sensor suite than existing setup.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 21 Feb 2015 08:36

How do you IN ships have never detected a kilo, of course if a ssk is idle or using its batteries any diesel submarine is hard detect even dating back to ww2.

Also RBU are one of few hard kill devices out there that can take out incoming torpedoes.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 21 Feb 2015 08:45

Torpedo generates a lot of noise so it is easier to kill, you cannot kill what you cannot detect and no during an exercise at sea subs are not idle per se they are very much functional but not engaging the sonar in active mode.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shaun » 21 Feb 2015 08:58

If IN can not detect its own kilo, I wonder how much , a better sensor will fair . AFAIK , IN is happy with the NPOL made sensors as it suites Indian water , exception being ATAS . Submarine haunting is an art , requires different platforms with different sensors.

If Gazi was destroyed by limited capability of the time than I am confident , hostile submarines will not get undetected within Indian coastal waters.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 21 Feb 2015 16:44

A SSK at tactical quite speed is hard target to detect and its much harder to find a sub due to thermal layers of water in Arabian sea.... many eons ago ( early 2000 ) in one of BRF meet in Mumbai we had a submarine officer as guest and he mentioned the same thing about Kilo quietness and that in in career he never missed a target when torpedo was fired from Kilo he mentioned some 35 torpedoes being fired he personally rated Kilo better than Type 1500 .


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Hobbes » 21 Feb 2015 18:35

AFAIK the Ghazi was hoist on its own petard - it was destroyed by one of its own mines. The official record ascribes the kill to the Mysore but several sources indicate otherwise.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 21 Feb 2015 20:40

it was sunk by rajput not mysore .

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 21 Feb 2015 20:48

it may or may not have hit a mine, but it was cornered and depth charged
bottom line, it was destroyed as an act of war

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shaun » 21 Feb 2015 21:28

Lalmohan wrote:it may or may not have hit a mine, but it was cornered and depth charged
bottom line, it was destroyed as an act of war


Yeah i agree , Ghazi was lured to vizag coast by IN , it was properly located and depth charged by Rajput. End result , destruction of Ghazi .

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arshyam » 21 Feb 2015 21:48

What do gurus think of this?

INS Vikramaditya’s operation crippled - S. Anandan, The Hindu

Barely a week after Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar witnessed the ongoing theatre-level naval exercise TROPEX-15 on board the newly acquired INS Vikramaditya , reliable information suggests that the aircraft carrier’s operation is crippled, owing to issues with its integral fleet of MiG-29K fighter jets.

Nearly 30 of the RD-33MK engines powering the twin-engine MiG-29K aircraft attached to the ‘Black Panther’ squadron have packed up ever since aviation activities got under way from the deck of the refurbished Soviet-era carrier that was inducted into the Indian Navy in Russia in November, 2013.

“The Naval fighter carries out high-speed landing by hooking on to any of the arrester wires stretched across the flight deck. In case it fails to hook, it should take off all over again. If an engine fails during flight, the fighter is forced to do a single-engine landing. But its power to take off just in case the arrester wires are missed is suspect. Therefore, the carrier doesn’t operate too far away from the shores,” a source said.

In other words, Vikramaditya remains tethered to the region — forced to operate within a 200 nautical mile radius of Karwar with an airfield in the vicinity, said a naval veteran familiar with the development.

Training still on

A senior officer, however, said flying operations and training of Indian naval pilots from the deck of Vikramaditya were being done in a phased manner.

“The aircraft is just too good and has a very powerful engine. To allay the fears of pilots, we have asked Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG to prove single-engine landing of MiG-29 K on board the Russian carrier Admiral Kuznetsov. This will happen in a fortnight,” the officer said.


As many as 21 of the 45 MiG 29K fighters ordered by the Navy have been delivered so far. Of these, some 13 have been accepted after trials.

The public sector aviation major Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has proposed to put in place requisite infrastructure at its Koraput unit for carrying out maintenance and overhaul of the RD33 MK engines powering the MiG 29K aircraft.

I think the article over-dramatizes the state of affairs, though the bit about RD-33 packing up in large numbers is a bit concerning. Also, in light of media articles attributing things to 'sources', one does not know what to believe and what not to.

Having stated this disclaimer, let me ask a few questions to understand this article better:
1. Considering this is our first experience with STOBAR (though we had used arrestor hooks on the Vikrant a long time ago), I would expect IN would take some time to train crews on this system again. In light of this, operating close to home makes sense. The question is, how long would such training usually take?
2. Taking off from the deck on a single engine seems to be a basic use case - won't the IN have checked this out when taking delivery of the 29K?
3. Is the single engine takeoff really that big an issue that 'cripples' carrier ops? I ask this since the IN is gung-ho about the LCA, which has only 1 engine. In fact, all the carrier based fighters operated by the IN have been single engine only.
4. Wiki says the 29K can be buddy refueled, so in theory, a crippled fighter could be escorted to shore by a 'buddy' fighter. Wiki says the 29K's ferry range is 3000KM with drop tanks, and with buddy refueling, one can expect it to drop to 1500-2000KM. Considering that the IN does not do expeditionary deployments outside the IOR (yet), this shouldn't be that much of the problem. But this may be an issue if deployed in the central/southern IOR.
4. The article says only 13 29Ks have been accepted, though 21 have been delivered. Does 'accepted' mean accepted for carrier service or for even flying out of INS Hansa? Is there any difference in naval parlance? Also, this means that the initial order of 16 has been completed (11 single seat + 5 KUB trainers) and the remaining 5 are from the second batch.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 21 Feb 2015 22:21

:mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shaun » 21 Feb 2015 22:25

S. Anandan and his creations ,Another farticle ,
His latest tweets show up his credibility
Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_28911 » 21 Feb 2015 22:29

negi wrote::mrgreen:


Well negi ji seems happy for some *unmentionable* reason. :mrgreen:
The pathetic affair of Mig-29K explains the Navy's interest in getting the LCA Navy Mk2 right.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Feb 2015 22:34

Russophiles had slapped me around when I suggested mig29 we would end up as onlee naval user.
So all problems are ours to find and own.

Corrosion of fuselage and engines is a issue even usn has faced periodically.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 21 Feb 2015 22:35

On a serious note what we hear about the Mig-29K does not come as a surprise to me , it is just that in old days such news never use to get printed in the MSM . Remember Mig-29K or even the RD-33MK are not in active service in any other navy not even in RUN . I was in INS Hansa a few months back and saw them lined up the fleet was grounded at that time , remember when the Mig-29 for the IAF first arrived it too had a lot of issues including the Radar , things have not changed much with it's naval cousin .

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2015 06:33

We should encourage rd33 export to tsp.
Make them reliant on it for 100s of jf17

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Arunkumar » 22 Feb 2015 16:59

>>Remember Mig-29K or even the RD-33MK are not in active service in any other navy not even in RUN .

Shudder to think what would have happened if LCA was designed around the RD-33 considering our soviet tilt when the broad contours of the project were being finalized.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 22 Feb 2015 20:01

negi wrote:On a serious note what we hear about the Mig-29K does not come as a surprise to me , it is just that in old days such news never use to get printed in the MSM . Remember Mig-29K or even the RD-33MK are not in active service in any other navy not even in RUN . I was in INS Hansa a few months back and saw them lined up the fleet was grounded at that time , remember when the Mig-29 for the IAF first arrived it too had a lot of issues including the Radar , things have not changed much with it's naval cousin .

One note Russian navy has taken delivery of Handful of 29k/kub. Russians more or less are stuck with mig 29k.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 22 Feb 2015 20:16

^Ordering is one thing and operating AC from a carrier another, Russians to be honest do not even have as much experience with a proper aircraft carrier as the IN . Even the Kiev class with RUN was more of an AC carrying cruiser , the only carrier which they have is the Adm Kuznetsov which again has spent most of the time as a floating strip for testing the Su-33 and Mig-29Ks , fact is had IN's order for Mig-29K not gone through the RUN would not have been able to afford those 24 Mig-29Ks. Russian navy's primary focus always has been on it's submarine fleet . IN is serious about the Vikramaditya and the Mig-29K , we are desperate and do not have a choice and both platforms have huge teething problems (to put it mildly). Even the Germans have left IN high and dry that Mig-29k simulator is not fully functional it's Sea harrier simulator redux all the way (lot of jugad was done to get it to work). Except for a few exceptions most of our imports have given us a lot of pain and hard time for example our Harriers could not fire the sea Eagle for a long time (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... bae-30949/), that is the official story thing is we spent almost 5 or more years to just figure things out on our own. Imports have seldom worked for us it's just that we have put a microscope on Tejas and mostly viewed imports through foreign lenses (Janes et al).
Last edited by negi on 22 Feb 2015 20:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_23658 » 22 Feb 2015 20:29

breaking on timesnow : Sindhughosh collides with boat, periscope damaged :(

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 22 Feb 2015 20:30

They are operating about 4 mig 29k at least based on report from late 2013. I think it's being refit that said its propulsion system is unreliable (as the Chinese are doing with the sister ship better keep a tug ready to pull the vessel around). Is nothing more Propaganda for Russian navy. The Russians claim they resolved some of those problems with new boilers for vikram only time will tell.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 22 Feb 2015 21:02

The bulk of info reg. the MIG-29Ks aboard the Vik-A are very positive.The amount of time the carrier spent at sea last year was a record,Over 240 days I think.Integration with the carrier of the aircraft over,extensive testing completed. There has been no official statement against the aircraft from the CNS as far as I know.The RD-33 engine is being manufactured at home for the MIG-29UG programme and a MIG-29 maintenance facility has been set up/is being set up locally. With over 100+ of the variants to serve for 25+ years,with local support,any problems should be effectively sorted out locally. Wasn't there a mention earlier that the MIG-29 had a better service availability record than the M-2000?

Here is a new anti-sub/torpedo hard-kill weapon system developed by Russia.Could be considered for our shallow water ASW corvettes,16 planned. Interesting large corvette design,only 2000t.

Russia Successfully Tests Small-Sized Anti-Submarine System in Baltic Sea

Russia has successfully tested its newest anti-submarine system, which features anti-torpedo capabilities, during military exercises in the Baltic Sea.

Russia’s stealth corvette Soobrazitelny has successfully tested the country’s newest Paket-NK small-sized anti-submarine system with anti-torpedo capabilities during the military exercises in the Baltic Sea.

The Kilo class diesel-electric torpedo submarine “Varshavyanka” (Project 877) served as a target and was fired at with actual torpedoes (which hadn't been equipped with warheads).

The corvette is set to engage in more practice firing and conduct a number of other military exercises.

The Paket-NK system is designed to engage (destroy) submarines in a ship's close-in zone, when carrying out submarine warfare tasks, and to destroy torpedoes, attacking the ship while carrying out anti-torpedo defense tasks.


Russia to Test Strategic Missile Forces in Unscheduled Drills
The Paket-NK system can operate independently or be integrated into ship's antisubmarine/anti-torpedo defense system, solving a number of tasks in fully automatic or automated modes.

The tasks may include the generation of target designation data for smaller heat-seeking torpedoes, based on data provided by ship's sonar systems and posts.

Detection and classification of attacking torpedoes, determination of their movement parameters, and generation of target designation data for anti-torpedoes

Pre-launch preparation of combat modules, generation and transfer of firing data to them, launching of anti-torpedoes and/or miniature heat-seeking torpedoes

Launching units control

The Paket-NK system is a radically new weapon system, allowing surface ships to complete ASW/anti-torpedo defense tasks with high effectiveness, and to substantially increase their survivability.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150209/ ... z3SUV6YhjG

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 22 Feb 2015 21:04

Philip wrote:Wasn't there a mention earlier that the MIG-29 had a better service availability record than the M-2000?
Unfortunately it is the other way round.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby JTull » 22 Feb 2015 23:41

Navy submarine INS Sindhughosh collides with fishing boat, suffers periscope damage

NEW DELHI: In yet another accident in the Navy, a Russian-origin Kilo-class submarine INS Sindhughosh suffered some damage when a fishing boat hit its periscope during a special operation off the western coast late on Thursday night.

The 3,000-tonne submarine INS Sindhughosh, which was participating in the major naval exercise Tropex (Theatre Readiness Operational Level Exercise) in the Arabian Sea, was at "periscope depth" when the incident took place in the intervening night of Thursday-Friday.

"The submarine was practicing 'special boat section' operation during which divers swim out of its torpedo tubes with a Gemini boat to carry out a covert land operation on land. It was pitch-dark when the operation was being carried out close to the coastline, south of Mumbai," said an official.

"The fishing boat hit the submarine's periscope without any warning. The submarine surfaced and then made its way to the naval dockyard at Mumbai, where its damaged periscope will be repaired. It's an occupational hazard but such exercises have to be carried out," he added.
While this seems to be more of an inadvertent mishap, around 40 naval officers are in the dock — most of them facing court martial — for the string of warship mishaps in just the last couple of years, as reported earlier by TOI.

The captain of another Kilo-class submarine INS Sindhuratna, for instance, is now facing a general court martial (GCM) for the mishap on board his submarine, which killed two officers, injured several sailors and proved to be the final trigger for Admiral DK Joshi to resign as Navy chief in February last year.

INS Sindhuratna captain to face court martial

While INS Sindhuratna Commander Sandeep Sinha will undergo disciplinary action, six other officers have been awarded "severe displeasure" — a black-mark in their records preventing any promotion, foreign posting, course and the like for them for two years. They include Commodore commanding submarines of Western Naval Command, SR Kapoor, and two of his officers.

They were on board INS Sindhuratna for "Task-II trials" to clear the 26-year-old submarine for operational deployment — after a refit for Rs 200 crore at Mumbai naval dockyard — when disaster struck on February 26. The probe showed a cable fire over the battery pit in the submarine's third compartment led to the thick toxic smoke on board the vessel, as was first reported by TOI.
Defence minister Manohar Parrikar also wants accountability to be firmly fixed for submarine INS Sindhurakshak's sinking at the Mumbai dockyard after internal explosions in August 2013, which killed three officers and 15 sailors. But the Navy is yet to finalize the inquiry report into this accident.

The INS Sindhuratna case brings out how several factors are increasingly coming together to create a crisis in the blue-water force, tasked with guarding India's huge strategic interests in the region stretching from the Persian Gulf to the Malacca Strait.

Politico-bureaucratic apathy in clearing new projects and emergency purchases, for instance, is making the Navy flog ageing warships well beyond their operational lives. Submarines, for instance, have a design life of only 25 years.

India is down to just 13 ageing diesel-electric submarines, only half of them being operational at any given time. The four Shishumar-class submarines of German-origin were inducted between 1986 and 1994. The nine Kilo-class submarines of Russian origin, in turn, were inducted between 1986 and 1991.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Feb 2015 00:43

Many similar accidents worldwide. A japan fishing
Boat went down all hands when a usn ssn surfaced
From right under it.

Makes me think passive sonar is mostly turned off.
Else fishing boat engines should be easily detectable.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 23 Feb 2015 02:15

India now puts aircraft carrier plan on fast track
NEW DELHI: India is trying to fast-track finalization of its long-pending ambitious plan to launch indigenous construction of its largest-ever aircraft carrier. Though the propulsion system for the proposed 65,000-tonne warship is yet to be decided, the plan is veering towards nuclear power for greater operational endurance.

The ongoing "detailed" naval study for this indigenous aircraft carrier-II (IAC-II) project has gained urgency since the ageing 56-year-old INS Viraat -- quite toothless now with just 11 Sea Harrier jump-jets left to operate from its deck -- will be retired next year.

India has to plan ahead since it will take at least 10-12 years to construct IAC-II, which will be christened INS Vishal, if it wants to systematically build military capabilities to counter China's expanding long-range naval deployments in the Indian Ocean Region, say officials.

China, after inducting its first 65,000-tonne aircraft carrier Liaoning in September 2012, already has a second one under construction and two more are in the pipeline to further bolster its expanding maritime power. Aircraft carriers, with their accompanying warships and aircraft, after all, are the ultimate symbols of military power projection around the globe.

"INS Viraat will be decommissioned after the International Fleet Review in Vizag in February 2016. It will not be cost-effective to go in for another major refit of INS Viraat, which was inducted from the UK in May 1987," said an officer.

This will leave the Navy with just one aircraft carrier, the 44,400-tonne INS Vikramaditya, the refurbished Admiral Gorshkov inducted from Russia at a cost of $2.33 billion in November 2013. The 40,000-tonne IAC-I or INS Vikrant being built at Cochin Shipyard will be ready for induction only by 2018-2019 after a long delay.

The construction of INS Vishal will also not be an easy task. It will take a few more months to "finalize the exact tonnage and the type of propulsion, aircraft and other parameters" for IAC-II. "The government will then have to take the final call," said another officer.

But the carrier will definitely have CATOBAR (catapult assisted take-off but arrested recovery) configuration for launching fighters as well as heavier aircraft from its deck. Towards this end, India has already asked the US to share technology for EMALS (electromagnetic aircraft launch systems), developed by General Atomics, under the bilateral Defence Trade and Technology Initiative, as reported by TOI earlier.

INS Viraat, INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant all have angled ski-jumps for fighters to take off under their own power in STOBAR (short take-off but arrested recovery) operations. "This limits the carrier operations to only fighters like MiG-29Ks. With CATOBAR, IAC-II will also be able handle more as well as heavier aircraft for surveillance, early-warning, electronic warfare and other operations," he said.

The importance of carrier battle-groups can be gauged from the fact that one such task-force can "control" around 200,000 square nautical miles of ocean area, and is capable of moving over 600 nautical miles a day. "The self-contained CBGs are the most versatile platforms of military power available," he said.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_28840 » 23 Feb 2015 09:09

Singha wrote:Many similar accidents worldwide. A japan fishing
Boat went down all hands when a usn ssn surfaced
From right under it.

Makes me think passive sonar is mostly turned off.
Else fishing boat engines should be easily detectable.


Fishing boats tend to cast their nets and anchor or drift with their engines off. Passive sonar would not be able to detect them. Active Sonar tends to give away ones position for tens of miles and would not be used much (if at all).

Standard procedure is to go shallow and check with periscope before surfacing, and given that the periscope was damaged it is likely that they went up scope and immediately rammed it into the boat. Bad luck really but that's about it. Wrong place, wrong time and all that.

And I remember the USS Greenville incident quite clearly, that was a different sequence of events where an emergency blow ballast drill was carried out and the boat surfaced right under a fisheries training boat with students. I believe there was a few survivors. The captain was court-martialled for not checking first with his periscope before diving and carrying out the drill.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 23 Feb 2015 09:53

Just bad luck for the sub or procedure were not followed

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 23 Feb 2015 10:10

When exercises are going on,surely there are "no-go" areas for bumboats and merchant vessels? The fishing vessel made of timber-one supposes,wasn't picked up by the subs sonar.The muddy waters off Bombay also don't help v.much. Why the urgent need of our shallow water ASW corvettes hast to be fast tracked. In future one would hope that small surface patrol craft sanitise zones where exercises are being conducted,unless the exercise is meant to take into account a similar kind of environment ,operating close to enemy shores. There are many similar accidents that have happened involving subs and small craft both east and west.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_25400 » 23 Feb 2015 11:56

"But its power to take off just in case the arrester wires are missed is suspect. Therefore, the carrier doesn’t operate too far away from the shores,”


I think the writer got something garbled.

There are 3 arrestor wires. If you miss all of them, you try for emergency throttle and convert it into "touch and go"., go-around and try again. Situation is that if you were operating only on one engine, you might not have enough power to do that. Then the plane would be a "bolter" and fall off the end of the boat into the water, and the pilot would try to rely upon his expensive ejection seat, and you would have attrition loss of one plane.

If you didn't have enough power to do convert it into a touch and go with one engine, making it to the shore would be kind of irrelevant because you would go into the drink in any case.

You would need to write down the operational procedures (eg try for landing with one engine out or straight away divert, or hope that you have sufficient control to land anyway). This can be done using your land based carrier simulator. Or you could beg someone else to do it for you.

Now, in operational usage USN gives out grades for landing, and it is considered an achievement to be able to land and catch the first arrestor wire 15-20 times in a row. At the same time, it is expected that you are able to land without your plane going into the drink.

(Such things do happen - there are youtube videos of soviet sukhois going into the sea and possibly of similar western planes).

Now there is a learning curve, as our navy pilots get used to landing on a deck which is moving in 3 directions, on a plane that they are not completely familiarized with. During that learning curve, it may make sense for carrier to stay within easy divert of land airport to avoid jeopardizing limited airframes and chancing even more valued pilots).

But in case of war or any emergency, count upon the navy to simply head out and depend upon our pilots being able to land and hit the arrestor wires (even with one engine out), or accept the chance of loss.

Edit: There is another possibility : twin engine aircraft are designed so as to be able to fly with one engine out. The control laws and procedures would have been written with this asymmetric thrust in mind. However, Mig 29K being a carrier based aircraft, landing procedures on a deck and control with one engine out might not have been demonstrated. If so, this seems like a rather large gap for it to remain so many years after delivery.
----

Re: Mig 29 vs Mig 2000 availability records : Is that something based on the air force's mig 29s ? western aircraft do tend to be more available. It is a function of the designed reliability & the supply chain/spares (here the soviet union preferred to optimize for performance and cheapness, rather than for reliability; india had rather worse experience based upon our procurement policies and contracts and post-soviet situation) as well as upon level of usage, newness of platform etc.

While modern jets have improved situation all around (mig 29k expected to do better than air force mig 29), I would still expect a gap between soviet and western fighters. However, mirages are growing long in the tooth and comparing to the 29k (after initial teething troubles), I would have hoped for story to be better.


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