Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Apr 2015 09:50

probably with a VL QRSAM they can satisfy future needs of IA and IAF - the IAF has some 20 spyder units undergoing delivery but could use a lot more.
the army has a few tunguskas for mobile self defence , but a "TOR/VLMICA" type thing which this project is, and produced domestically might see huge orders.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Apr 2015 10:17

Arun M,yes. It's been a long time since Trishul was dumped and one hopes that this new missile doesn't take years to arrive.The delay in weaponry,esp. SAMs aboard IN warships under construction has been a real dampener. What the IN should do,as mentioned by some former senior naval officers,is to have a plan B ready and cut-off date for desi weaponry,so that the commissioning of ships are not delayed.There are also a number of firang missiles readily available in the 25KM range. There could've been an exercise to see how in a JV we could've tweaked a ready missile and improved it to our specs/reqs. This would shorten the development/commissioning time. Perhaps witht he development of the B-8,a supposed JV with Israel,the DRDO thinks that using the tech absorbed wuith that JV,we can develop a smaller missile out of it,but larger than the B-1.

There is a need for a smaller sized ASW corvette that can accompany a task force in blue water ops which can embark a med sized ASW helo (KA-28/31 size at least,with a dunking sonar), which can carry both short and LR ASW weaponry,like the ASW Klubs (that can double for an anti-ship mode too) ,MBUs,light-weight torpedoes ,a lt.wt. 76mm DP gun,SR SAMs for anti-air/missile defence, and 30mm gatlings. VDS/TAS plus hull mounted sonar too,Top speed 30kts+.This may work out to around 1750-2000t+.The cost of such a Corvette should be half that of a Talwar and much less than that of a P-28. The P-28s are actually frigates if you compare then with the Leander class. The problem with some of our OPV designs is that the twin-funnel design does not allow enough weaponry on either beam.The OPVs are also inadequately armed for ASW duties.Perhaps for standardization the hull could be used/tweaked converting the design into an ASW corvette. The shallow water ASW corvettes planned will be used only for sanitizing the inner coastal waters.The Klub missile offers excellent flexibility for adapting the same design for an anti-ship role if required .With greater automation,the crew and size could be reduced considerably.

Alexis,B-1's range is half that of the proposed missile.The new missile should be designed to be able to intercept supersonic anti-ship missiles,which are going to proliferate PLAN warships in the near future.

PS:Interesting report about the PLAN squatting at Gwadar.Will Uncle Sam keep on bankrolling and gifting MIl weaponry to its favourite rent boy Pak after this?

Chinese naval ships to use Pakistan port after SL snub 2015-04-16 - See more at: http://www.dailymirror.lk/69345/chinese ... 85yet.dpuf

Pakistan's Gwadar port which has been taken over by a Chinese firm could guarantee maintenance and supply for China's naval ships in the Indian Ocean after the new Sri Lankan government declined permission for Chinese vessels to dock in the country.

"The Gwadar port will also guarantee China's naval ships' maintenance and supply in the Indian Ocean. The move is widely seen as crucial for China, especially as it is unlikely that Sri Lanka will open its ports to Chinese naval ships," Zhao Gancheng, director of South Asia Studies at Shanghai Institute for International Studies told state-run Global Times.

The new Sri Lankan government headed by President Maithripala Srisena reversed his predecessor Mahinda Rajapaksa's policy of allowing Chinese submarines to dock in Colombo, following India's concerns.

Zhao said the port will serve as a major route to the Indian Ocean for Chinese goods, which will have far-reaching significance for China's Xinjiang region's economic development.

Xinjiang is planned to be connected through an economic corridor with Gwadar through Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK).

Chinese experts however warned of inherent risks about the project in view of militancy in the Balochistan region.

Experts cautioned about obstacles as the port area suffers from a lack of water resources, housing, transportation and other facilities to provide for a large workforce, the Global Times reported.

Wang Dehua, an expert with the Shanghai Municipal Center for International Studies, who has been visiting Gwardar Port since 2007, said that detailed plans on building highways, railways and pipelines are the second step.

"Building such infrastructure has inherent risks and difficulties, he said, due to the high mountain ranges and security issues caused by militants operating in the region. These difficulties can be overcome, but may take time," he said.

The port will formally commence operations by a Chinese company this month which is projected as a key transportation hub of the planned China-Pakistan Economic Corridor.(PTI)

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 16 Apr 2015 11:45

Manu Pubby @manupubby · 33m 33 minutes ago >>

* The first P15 B 'Visakhapatnam' to be launched on April 20 at Mumbai. Stealth destroyer is 65 % indigenous : Navy
* P 15 B "Visakhapatnam" can perform endlessly in NBC environment, air control system. All weapons vertical launch.
* Stealth destroyer Visakhapatnam to have Brahmos, LRSAM and larger calibre MR 127. But main gun not decided yet, with DAC.
* The first P 15B to be inducted by 2018: Navy
* Navy says engines on new P15B destroyers are Ukrainian. But no worries yet on stopping supplies. Hopes situation will not worsen.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 16 Apr 2015 11:48

Manu Pubby @manupubby · 32m 32 minutes ago >>

* End of May - the navy hopes to undock the under construction Vikrant aircraft carrier at Kochi.
* Dec 2018 - Navy hopeful to meet this date to induct the INS Vikrant - India's first indigenous aircraft carrier under construction in Kochi.
* Big: Navy says on record it is actively considering the American EMALS aircraft launch system for its next aircraft carrier.

* INS Vikramaditya at refit in Karwar, to be fitted with the Barak air defence system from the Viraat that is now set to retire.
* Slight correction: Vikramaditya to get Barak air defence systems but not from Virat. Another ship that is being decommissioned.

* Navy will submit it's report on selecting Indian shipyards for the P75 I by the end of this month. No decision yet: DG Naval Design.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 16 Apr 2015 11:53

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... ce-pipavav
EY study says Indian shipbuilding capacity grossly inadequate, private yards can step up

NEW DELHI: With demand in India for new naval platforms such as warships and submarines outstripping the public sector's capacity to deliver, private shipyards have the potential of scooping up annual business of Rs 25,000 crore over the next 15 years, a report on warship-building capabilities says.

While the government has been working to increase the capacity of defence shipyards, the sheer requirements of the navy - estimated at more than 95 vessels due for acquisition by 2027 - presents a unique opportunity for private shipyards to capture the market, according to the recent report by EY.

Besides, a substantial order for next-generation submarines has captured the imagination of the private sector - Pipavav Defence & Offshore Engineering Co and Larsen & Toubro are in contention for an estimated Rs 80,000 crore of contracts along with Mazgaon Docks Ltd and others. The requirement of the navy and the Coast Guard over the next few years stretches from offshore patrol vessels to amphibious fighting ships.

Comparing the existing and planned upgrade in the capability of India's defence shipyards, the report says that while at an average, government-owned yards can handle business worth Rs 30,000 crore annually in the 15-year period, there will be a huge gap in supply, leaving private yards with the scope of an annual Rs 25,000 crore business.

"The indigenous construction requires an estimated annual capacity of 107 Standard Ship Units (SSUs) in terms of the annual turnover. But even with a reasonable increase in efficiency, India's ship-building capacity, as well as the present capacity of defence shipyards, is grossly inadequate to meet even half of projected requirements," the report says.

Besides the scope for business, a related study by EY suggests that in case the government can implement its 'Make in India' plan for the defence forces, savings of at least 20% in terms of capital expenditure can be achieved over the next 12 years in military purchases. This would translate into roughly a saving of Rs 3 lakh crore.

"Considering the country's cost-saving edge, we can safely assume a saving of above 20% on major defence platforms in case they are produced in India, with or without a joint venture or transfer of technology," the report says.

This demand has spurred fresh interest in the private sector to invest in shipyards, with the takeover of Pipavav by Anil Ambani's Reliance Infrastructure Ltd the most recent example. The report identifies leading players in the segment as Pipavav, L&T, Bharati Shipyard Ltd and ABG Shipyard Ltd, which have been able to secure naval orders in recent years.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Apr 2015 12:03

>> * Slight correction: Vikramaditya to get Barak air defence systems but not from Virat. Another ship that is being decommissioned.

are the ganga, godavari and gomti nearing retirement now ?

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 16 Apr 2015 15:43

India's second aircraft carrier INS Viraat may get decommissioned by 2018

Chopra said, “The board will determine how much life is now left in Godavari Class frigates. The Godavari Class warships — INS Godavari, INS Ganga and INS Gomti — were commissioned in the 1980’s.”

The aging guided missile frigates will be among the first to get decommissioned from the active fleet.

The 4 barak 1 freed from INS Viraat and 3 INS Godavri class frigates should go into INS Vikramaditya and 3 Kolkata class destroyers.

Next in line will be retirement of 3 early Rajput class destroyers as per an earlier cag report will be decommissioned by 2018.

John · Post by **John** » 16 Apr 2015 16:46

IMO The ones from rest of Godavari will be used for 2nd Batch of Talwar mixed in with newer systems that are purchased not Kolkata. Latter is not likely to get point defense system till SRSAM/Maitri whatever is readied after 2020..

alexis wrote:Why are we having multiple programmes for a missile which is unlikely to be procured in large numbers (less than a 1000 is needed as per my estimate)? Also we have Barak 1 already.

Barak is command guided missile while still quite potent it is starting to age, for example Royal Navy is replacing its sea wolf missile and augmenting Aster with cheaper SAM system CAMM.

pankajs wrote: Navy says engines on new P15B destroyers are Ukrainian. But no worries yet on stopping supplies. Hopes situation will not worsen.

Thanks for posting it. P15 lineup biggest weakness is its Zorya gas turbines should speed up the switch to LM2500 assembled locally with license or better yet develop local alternative.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Apr 2015 17:01

John,the Kol will have to wait for 10 years to get its missiles? Appears to be far too long for that.
It would be great to see 3 IN carriers steaming together.I'm sure that the Viraat can be nursed along for that historic pic to be taken.Whether the IAC-1 will be ready though is a moot point.She has to be ready in 2 years time.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Apr 2015 17:19

All About the INS Visakhapatnam, Navy's Most Powerful Destroyer
All India | Written by Vishnu Som

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/all-abou ... 5476[quote]

At 7,300 tonnes, Visakhapatnam will be the largest destroyer commissioned in the country and will be equipped with the Israeli Multi Function Surveillance Threat Alert Radar (MF-STAR) which will provide targeting information to 32 Barak 8 long-range surface to air missiles onboard the warship.

The Barak 8 missile being co-developed with Israel is at present being integrated in the Navy's new destroyer, INS Kolkata and will be test-fired by October this year. Like the INS Kolkata, the Visakhpatnam will be able to fire 16 long range Brahmos anti-ship missiles.

There are some important differences between the Navy's Kolkata class destroyers and the Visakhapatnam class though they share the same hull-design and Ukrainian-built Zorya gas turbines.

The Visakhapatnam will be armed with a 127 mm main gun while the INS Kolkata has a 76mm Super Rapid Gun Mount (SRGM). Both classes share the AK-630 close-in anti-missile gun system.
The sonar of the Visakhapatnam will be bow mounted and will feature a a revised bridge layout.
The design of the mast, which features the main radar has been revised. The Visakhapatnam will provide its crew greater protection in a nuclear, chemical or biological warfare scenario.
She also features a rail-less helicopter traversing system to secure the helicopter she carries in heavy sea conditions.
Central to the Visakhapatnam is network-centric layout. She is equipped with a Ship Data Network (SDN), an Automatic Power Management System and a Combat Management System. Essentially, all information critical for the operation of the warship during all operations is available to key officers through the SDN which the Navy describes as a data information highway.
The Visakhapatnam is being launched on April 20 and will be delivered to the Indian Navy in July 2018. The remaining three ships will be delivered at an interval of two years each.[/quote]

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 16 Apr 2015 17:24

John wrote:IMO The ones from rest of Godavari will be used for 2nd Batch of Talwar mixed in with newer systems that are purchased not Kolkata. Latter is not likely to get point defense system till SRSAM/Maitri whatever is readied after 2020..

Thanks for posting it. P15 lineup biggest weakness is its Zorya gas turbines should speed up the switch to LM2500 assembled locally with license or better yet develop local alternative.

Whatever happened to the Marine version of Kaveri?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Apr 2015 17:46

It is not remotely powerful enough for ddg powerplant

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 16 Apr 2015 17:51

Whatever happened to Shivalik class follow on?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 16 Apr 2015 17:54

Austin wrote:All About the INS Visakhapatnam, Navy's Most Powerful Destroyer
All India | Written by Vishnu Som

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/all-abou ... 5476[quote]

At 7,300 tonnes, Visakhapatnam will be the largest destroyer commissioned in the country and will be equipped with the Israeli Multi Function Surveillance Threat Alert Radar (MF-STAR) which will provide targeting information to 32 Barak 8 long-range surface to air missiles onboard the warship.

The Barak 8 missile being co-developed with Israel is at present being integrated in the Navy's new destroyer, INS Kolkata and will be test-fired by October this year. Like the INS Kolkata, the Visakhpatnam will be able to fire 16 long range Brahmos anti-ship missiles.

There are some important differences between the Navy's Kolkata class destroyers and the Visakhapatnam class though they share the same hull-design and Ukrainian-built Zorya gas turbines.

The Visakhapatnam will be armed with a 127 mm main gun while the INS Kolkata has a 76mm Super Rapid Gun Mount (SRGM). Both classes share the AK-630 close-in anti-missile gun system.
The sonar of the Visakhapatnam will be bow mounted and will feature a a revised bridge layout.
The design of the mast, which features the main radar has been revised. The Visakhapatnam will provide its crew greater protection in a nuclear, chemical or biological warfare scenario.
She also features a rail-less helicopter traversing system to secure the helicopter she carries in heavy sea conditions.
Central to the Visakhapatnam is network-centric layout. She is equipped with a Ship Data Network (SDN), an Automatic Power Management System and a Combat Management System. Essentially, all information critical for the operation of the warship during all operations is available to key officers through the SDN which the Navy describes as a data information highway.
The Visakhapatnam is being launched on April 20 and will be delivered to the Indian Navy in July 2018. The remaining three ships will be delivered at an interval of two years each.

[/quote]

no nirbhay?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Apr 2015 17:57

The 127mm must be the dreaded new oto ...it can pulverize a town in 5 mins of rapid fire

It is 64 cal and Italian fremms use

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 16 Apr 2015 18:10

Happy at the rapid build rate of Type 15B. Its not a quantum leap over Type 15A (then it'll be Type XX or Project XX).

The 3 Godavari & 5 Rajput need replacement by 2018, and 3 Type 15A & 4 Type 15B will do so. Maybe some of the 7 Type 17A will be also commissioned before 2020.

Zorya GTs are quite capable, also serving on Chinese destroyers.

The L&T VLS should be capable of firing Nirbhay, though tests need to be done.

With regards to the number of LRSAM, I'm told that 48-64 missiles will be more expensive than the ship itself, no ships anywhere in the world carry a full loadout, and putting 64 missiles on one ship is like putting all eggs in the same basket. These are light destroyers compared to US counterparts, but have sufficient range, speed, sensors & punch for our requirements.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 16 Apr 2015 18:21

6 Barak-1 systems with 2238 & 2221 radars should be available from 3 decommissioned Godavari, 2 Rajput & 1 Viraat. The BrahMos system from the last two Rajputs could also be reused, as can the RAWL radars.

Interesting to see where they'll go - probable candidates are Trishul class, Teg class, INS Mumbai, INS Vikramaditya or Kamorta class.

All our newest ships, Teg, Vikramaditya, Kolkata or Kamorta have no SR-SAM.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 16 Apr 2015 18:27

Mash'allah. Definitely better looking from front 3 quarters

P-15B schematic:

vs P-15A:

shravanp · Post by **shravanp** » 16 Apr 2015 18:33

Glad to see the network-centric emphasis by Navy. Is IAF too following similar model? I know Navy has it's dedicated satellite, but not sure if IAF would ever have one of theirs.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 16 Apr 2015 18:39

Manu Pubby ‏@manupubby 2h2 hours ago

Nice - first images of Visakhapatnam P15B class stealth destroyer under construction in Mumbai, launch is on April 20

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 16 Apr 2015 18:43

^P-15As were launched with a higher state of construction. The super struvture and masts were in place

Visual differences:

- Revised bridge layout
- rotated Brahmos VLS
- redesigned missile 'housing', probably lower RCS
- 127 mm oto

MF-STAR mast looks same.

John wrote:... P15 lineup biggest weakness is its Zorya gas turbines should speed up the switch to LM2500 assembled locally with license or better yet develop local alternative.

Why do you say so? Zorya GTs have a reputation for reliability and performance.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 16 Apr 2015 18:58

tsarkar wrote:These are light destroyers compared to US counterparts, but have sufficient range, speed, sensors & punch for our requirements.

But very comparable with other ships like 'Horizon', 'T 45' and others (if any!).

Let us not compare them to the 'Aegis' class of USN, though they would be quite equal to the Aegis equipped ships of Australia, Norway and Korea.

If IN is happy with this design, let us continue the same hull with different systems

Yeh dil mange more. How about 1 P 15XYZ and 1 P 17ABC PER YEAR !!!!

K

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Apr 2015 20:16

we are now committed to 10 P15,P15A, P15B class ships with Zorya turbines.
these 10 are the largest and most powerful combat ships in our fleet.

all the 6 talwar class ships use Zorya.

I am not too sure what kind of future Ukraine has and whether zorya which has a huge portfolio of products and clients will be able to provide the service levels and upgraded engines we will need going fwd.

the only other option is the LM2500 family. right now - every serving ship in the USN barring the n-powered ones use this engine family.

P17 - 3 ships and ADS-1 are using it. most likely P17A will also use it.

diesel plants cannot provide the 32 knot top speeds needed for strike groups within a reasonable form factor in warships.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Apr 2015 20:30

from livefist.
pic of the Vizag

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JiHp8i8JwYw/V ... VISAKH.jpg

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 16 Apr 2015 23:04

^^^^ I am seriously concerned with Zorya, may be we should buy the company lock, stock and barell

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 16 Apr 2015 23:07

Official Indian Navy impression of P15B destroyer Visakhapatnam @Livefist

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 16 Apr 2015 23:18

I don't see any difference in the superstructure apart from the VLS layout.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Apr 2015 23:23

Looks clean

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 16 Apr 2015 23:45

Better pic: (Source Twitter page of Sandeep Unnithan)

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 17 Apr 2015 02:34

Singha wrote:The 127mm must be the dreaded new oto ...it can pulverize a town in 5 mins of rapid fire

It is 64 cal and Italian fremms use

Most likely to be the OTO given we actively use the 76mm SRGMs. You know GD.....this hopefully means that we get our hands on those damn Vulcano shells as well!!! upto 100km ER artillery yes please!

John · Post by **John** » 17 Apr 2015 05:21

Aditya G wrote:Why do you say so? Zorya GTs have a reputation for reliability and performance.

Relying on single vendor which in a country that in middle of civil war is a never a great idea. Unlike the Chinese who have reverse engineered the Zorya turbines we will be left in a bad situation if spares are cut off.

As for P-15B its armament fit matching P-15A isn't much of a suprise a 64 cell Barak-8 would mean procuring about 120-130 missiles including spares per vessels which would easily cost in upwards of 260 million..

vina · Post by **vina** » 17 Apr 2015 06:24

The P15 A/B is looking good. Clearly comparable to the Daring/Akizuki/Forbin and the Chinese have built out the Lanzhou class in pretty good time.

Where I think the IN could have got inventive is in the propulsion side of things. This CODOG/COGOG via gearboxes as was done for the Kolkata , Shivalik and the to be launched Vikrant probably can be standardized in the follow on versions with a "power station" /electric drive concept. The gear boxes are heavy, maintenance intensive, take a lot of space and is not needed anymore. This sort of thing is better done more efficiently in this day and age with electric drives and very reliably with power electronics reaching the stage of maturity it has reached today. Maybe the navy needs to reach out to ABB and see if they will do a "make in India" for that. I am sure they will be more than happy to, given the size of their ops in India. Fast vessels like cruise lines have moved on to this. Great flexibility and ability to bring on/ take off prime movers on/off line as needed.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2015 06:31

Daring class is already doing it I think..the electric drive thing.
Navy p15b brochure scanned into livefist confirms its the oto.

We need to get the sh70 deal way more than apaches and Chinooks.
Iaf can buy all the lch they want
With m777 deal dead and msr funds halved there is no special need for Chinooks
But we do need a fleet of helis to replace the sea kings and kamovs.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2015 06:33

China may be license producing the zorya with some parts locally made. I think they are far from coming up with their own design.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2015 08:53

my P15B-mod design: this would fix all the deficiencies of the P15A and take more design risks.

- no main gun on the foredeck! shore bombardment is the only advantage of that big 127mm gun that needs 3 levels of deck penetration...and we not going to be 50km off karachi for sure

- the area occupied by the main gun to take 32 more barak8 cells. total 64 Barak8 on the front deck. retain the 16 UVLS cells.

- the two RBU launchers moved to the side one on each side, near the main funnel low to the ground and covered by sliding door STEALTH HOUSING...not a xmas tree RCS enhancer that defeats the whole purpose of ship shaping.

- replacement of the two RBU by 2 x 76mm AA oto guns in the style of the italian horizon class - this is far more useful as a powerful LR weapon against missiles and small boats.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XoVYpPEsHhM/U ... troyer.jpg

- improved Aruthra Mk2 type 3D search radar on the back mast and get rid of the rawl...should be able to track far more targets in agile manner

- retain the 4 x AK630

- 2 x SH60 seahawk ASW helicopters

- retain the TT launchers

- 32 cell barak-1/SRSAM launcher between the hangar and the aft funnel.

- future room kept near the funnel for 8 inclined tubes of nirbhay/brahmos. the load mix of 16+8 will depend on mission.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2015 08:58

and imho the IN should not be so worried about low superstructure for sea keeping. the very tall and top heavy looking Kongo, Tico, Spruance and Burke classes operate in the hostile waters of the north atlantic and pacific all the time. and have done so for decades. the arabian sea/BOB/IOR surely will not have worse conditions.

srin · Post by **srin** » 17 Apr 2015 08:59

The brochure on livefist mentions 76mm SRGM, not a 127mm gun ...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2015 09:12

we should look to widen the beam of our designs by another 2 mts to match the western heavies and open up room for a better payload of SAMs.
with 4 x LM2500, the fairly wide looking DDG51 is able to plough through the waves on brute power.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2015 09:15

vishnu som of ndtv wrote 127mm. actually it makes sense only for a gun cruiser meant to shell shore targets like accompanying a marine task force. a use case for USMC in colonial wars but not us. 76mm SRGM will do fine for us, but I wish they had two of them for CIWS work where the RBUs are now...at the edge of the deck.

vina · Post by **vina** » 17 Apr 2015 09:44

Singha wrote:we should look to widen the beam of our designs by another 2 mts to match the western heavies and open up room for a better payload of SAMs.
with 4 x LM2500, the fairly wide looking DDG51 is able to plough through the waves on brute power.

Bad idea. You will need a couple of more fleet tankers if you go that route. Khan's beef cake solutions will need beef cake supply and replenishment support , frugal daal chawal stuff won't do.

The RBU stuff carried over from the soviets is clearly passe. They should have universal VLS tubes stuck all over the fore deck and the RBUs should be VLS launch able stuff . That is the Khan solution we should flow into our systems, the smarter Khan stuff.

The P15 hull forms are beautiful and well designed.. I would keep them anyday and indeed I think they are perfect. They are nice deep hulls , narrow waisted and good fineness ratio. Keep them! Remember, the best way to put stuff on ships is standing up , perpendicular to the waterlines (like missiles and stuff for e.g.), rather than put them on inclined tubes on the deck like the Russian stuff we have seen until now. The latter increases top weight . The best place to put heavy weights on a boat is at the keel!