Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Jul 2014 15:56

DAC meet just over.great news!
21000cr+. for the armed forces,mostly for the IN.

1.5 fleet support ships @ 9,000cr.To be built locally.

2.32 ALHs for the IN and CG.

3.5 OPVs from the Goa shipyard @ 2000cr.

4.5 FPVs from Garden Reach S @ 360 cr.

5.SAR eqpt. for the 3 services @ 900cr.

6.56 AVRO transport replacements from Indian pvt. industry only @ 13,000cr.

kit · Post by **kit** » 19 Jul 2014 16:15

Philip wrote:DAC meet just over.great news!
21000cr+. for the armed forces,mostly for the IN.

1.5 fleet support ships @ 9,000cr.To be built locally.

2.32 ALHs for the IN and CG.

3.5 OPVs from the Goa shipyard @ 2000cr.

4.5 FPVs from Garden Reach S @ 360 cr.

5.SAR eqpt. for the 3 services @ 900cr.

6.56 AVRO transport replacements from Indian pvt. industry only @ 13,000cr.

Great news indeed.Cheaper than imports and good bang for the buck, apart from creating and sustaining new jobs and industry .. right decision !

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Jul 2014 16:46

^^^
Link to the story? TIA.

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 19 Jul 2014 17:26

.

NH 90 and S 70 In final position ..Indian Navy MRH

http://www.defenceiq.com/air-forces-and ... m_term=SMO

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jul 2014 18:17

one of the lessons we need to learn is defence projects need around 15-20 yrs from scratch to produce deployable product .

a nation's top echelons must plan for the kind of economy and security environment 15-20 yrs in advance and fund and back projects that will deliver something useful when its needed.

cheen did that from early 90s, so when the time came they are ready with projects/products/clones from ASAT weapons down to knives and pistols. we did it selectively only where imports not feasible or some special interest was taken at PMO level like Tejas. often lack of economic growth also stifled the funds.

we were also blessed with luminous talents of the likes vp singh, chandra sekhar, inder gujral, deve gowda, MMS for quite a long spell. only ABV and PVNR could make the list of those who 'cared'.

prices have escalated to unheard of levels, product lifecycle with upg is 50 yrs and imports are just not cost effective now. even if desi kit is only 50% as good, we have no option but to bankrupt ourself or rely on incremental improvements in desi kit and deploy.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Jul 2014 18:39

Philip wrote:DAC meet just over.great news!
21000cr+. for the armed forces,mostly for the IN.

1.5 fleet support ships @ 9,000cr.To be built locally.

2.32 ALHs for the IN and CG.

3.5 OPVs from the Goa shipyard @ 2000cr.

4.5 FPVs from Garden Reach S @ 360 cr.

5.SAR eqpt. for the 3 services @ 900cr.

6.56 AVRO transport replacements from Indian pvt. industry only @ 13,000cr.

They were stating in news that 6 more subs as part of 2nd line sub will be cleared guess will have to wait for some time.

But the package looks good more Swadeshi then Videshi product.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 Jul 2014 18:44

They have cleared money for what is being built in India.

titash · Post by **titash** » 19 Jul 2014 18:52

Singha wrote:one of the lessons we need to learn is defence projects need around 15-20 yrs from scratch to produce deployable product .

a nation's top echelons must plan for the kind of economy and security environment 15-20 yrs in advance and fund and back projects that will deliver something useful when its needed.

cheen did that from early 90s, so when the time came they are ready with projects/products/clones from ASAT weapons down to knives and pistols. we did it selectively only where imports not feasible or some special interest was taken at PMO level like Tejas. often lack of economic growth also stifled the funds.

we were also blessed with luminous talents of the likes vp singh, chandra sekhar, inder gujral, deve gowda, MMS for quite a long spell. only ABV and PVNR could make the list of those who 'cared'.

prices have escalated to unheard of levels, product lifecycle with upg is 50 yrs and imports are just not cost effective now. even if desi kit is only 50% as good, we have no option but to bankrupt ourself or rely on incremental improvements in desi kit and deploy.

Self reliance and indigenization through GoI's masterly fiscal mismanagement

We've always seen a ghar ki murgi dal barabar situation, but there is a silver lining in every cloud; the current financial situation will kill the rafale, imported howitzers, and NMRH. These will be replaced by more numerous Tejas / desi 155mm / ALH or IMRH (down the line). This is not the ideal situation, but this will lay the foundation for more local development down the line just like the Chinese.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 19 Jul 2014 19:01

abhik wrote:^^^
Link to the story? TIA.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Modi-govt-clears-private-sector-entry-into-military-transport-aircraft-project/articleshow/38686575.cms

Best Part

The project had been put on hold by the previous UPA regime after the then heavy industries & public enterprises minister Praful Patel and the strong PSU lobby in October 2013 had vehemently opposed the move to virtually keep state-run units like HAL and BEML out of the mega programme.

But brushing all this aside, Jaitley on Saturday said the project, under which the selected foreign aviation company will partner with an Indian Production Agency (IPA), would help make the Indian private sector "a player" in aircraft-manufacturing and lead to "capacity-building" domestically.

The article further mentions that HAL has overflowing order book then what was the rational for opposing the move in the first place. Just for the sake of opposing / delaying at the cost of everything else. Strange

Singha wrote:we were also blessed with luminous talents of the likes vp singh, chandra sekhar, inder gujral, deve gowda, MMS for quite a long spell. only ABV and PVNR could make the list of those who 'cared

Well Said Sir. Only point of contention is that the Services should not suffer for the lack of vision and foresight in this area of the earlier leadership. We are in a better situation compared to past and hopefully the next gen products are all indigenous

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Jul 2014 19:26

Further media reports say that the IN's sub crisis has also been looked at,etc.Waiting for details.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Jul 2014 19:44

Singha wrote:one of the lessons we need to learn is defence projects need around 15-20 yrs from scratch to produce deployable product .<SNIP>

I think the exercise done as of last year termed as Long Term Perspective Planning (LTPP) to cater to requirements of next 15-years takes into account the above fact.

From whatever I've read, what the Services have done is map out the requirement over next 15-year period. This exercise was done with technology audit by DRDO to understand what all requirements can be met in-house and what gap needs to be filled. I think the idea is to import/JV items which have more urgent replacement requirement while requirements with comfortable lead times will be started in right earnest.

Development and induction of items like IJT, PINAKA, ALH which don't compromise on operational status of the Services and have comfortable lead times are best placed for success. Even with delays.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Jul 2014 20:24

a little OT: One thing I don't understand is the generous proportion of equipment that is earmarked for production in the home country, especially now that we have FDI in defence. For the Avro-replacement change the direct import to assembled/manufactured locally ration from 16:40 to say 6:50 or even 0:56.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 19 Jul 2014 22:25

Singha: +1. As far as defense planning is concerned, even making a decision today for something that's needed 3 years from now is to be considered "last minute", given product lifecycles and technology complexity

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Jul 2014 22:37

x-post:

Vipul wrote:Def Min Clears Acquisition Proposals Worth Rs 21,000 Cr.
Thus, a proposal for supply of 32 HAL-built Advanced Light Helicopter, 'Dhruv', to the Coast Guard and the Navy at a cost of Rs 7,000 crore was also okayed, officials said.

Something seems off here, 7000 crores for just 32 ALH Dhruvs? Thats about 219 crores/ 36 million dollars per helicopter.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Jul 2014 23:28

Though a month old,this piece by Karlekar,veteran scribe,war correspondent and security expert,is prtinent in the light of the decisions just taken by the DM/FM.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/ ... ority.html

Securing the nation is of utmost priority
Thursday, 19 June 2014 | Hiranmay Karlekar | in Oped

Our Armed Forces had received a raw deal during the UPA regime, and are left with critical shortages and lack of state-of-the-art weapons and equipment

Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to the Indian Navy's new aircraft carrier, INS Vikramaditya, and Defence (also Finance) Minister Arun Jaitley's to Jammu & Kashmir, underlined the high priority the new Government attaches to India's defence and security. This is understandable. The country faces serious threats on land and sea. The Line of Control in Jammu & Kashmir is unquiet and the withdrawal of American troops, except for perhaps a small contingent of Special Operations Force, from Afghanistan, is bound to be followed by an offensive by the Afghan Taliban, the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan and Al Qaeda, against the Kabul regime. Should that succeed, there will be sharp escalation in terrorist operations in Jammu & Kashmir as well as the rest of India. The Al Qaeda, which declared jihad against this country as early as 1998, has once again indicated its intention to turn its attention to the State.

The Government needs to address these threats with a blend of counter-insurgency and counter-terrorism measures, and by deploying the Armed Forces if military operations become necessary following a Pakistani offensive. This time, attacks may not be limited to land. The terrorist strike in Mumbai, master-minded by Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence and carried out by the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, that started on the night of November 26, 2008, is a clear indication of that. This, and the fact that Pakistan, which has been arming itself to the teeth against India with the help of American aid, is making special efforts to neutralise the Indian Navy's distinct superiority over its own military naval arm, indicates that in the next war the Indian Ocean and the Arabian Sea would see significant naval conflict.

Besides, the Chinese Navy's growing presence and assertiveness in the Indian Ocean is a factor, the promise of a further improvement in Sino-Indian relations following Mr Modi's becoming Prime Minister notwithstanding. In 1962, we paid the price for our complacence and dismal failure to read the Chinese mind. We cannot afford a repeat. Also, the Navy has to deal with piracy in the high seas which is causing serious global concern.

All this makes Prime Minister Modi's visit to INS Vikramaditya, a very special affair. It was a badly-needed morale booster for the Navy, which has lately passed through a very difficult time with accidents and the Chief of Naval Staff's resignation. Besides, the controversy over the usefulness of an aircraft carrier notwithstanding, there can be no doubt that INS Vikramaditya, along with the older ship of its kind, INS Virat, play an important role in power projection, which is critical part of a country's military naval profile.

Unfortunately, the Army, Air Force and the Navy have all received a very raw deal during the UPA's Government and are left with critical shortages and lack of state-of-the-art weapons and equipment which have not been procured! There are indications that the Government will move rapidly to remedy the situation. Also, the three-tier system of coastal security — with the maritime police controlling the shallow and inland waters, the Coast Guard the country's territorial waters, and the Indian Navy, overall in charge of maritime security, the waters beyond, is hampered by a lack of coordination as the Navy has no power over the other organisations which zealously guard their turf.

Finally, since India's internal and external threats are linked, one needs a security infrastructure that can activate a coordinated response by the military, Central and State intelligence agencies, Central forces like the Central Reserve Police Force, the Border Security Force, Sashastra Seema Bal, Indo-Tibetan Border Police and Central Industrial Security Force, and State police establishments. It is equally necessary to ensure continuous and effective coordination between the Intelligence Bureau and the Research & Analysis Wing, which has often not been good enough. Mr Modi's Government has its task cut out.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 20 Jul 2014 02:50

Philip wrote:DAC meet just over.great news!
21000cr+. for the armed forces,mostly for the IN.

1.5 fleet support ships @ 9,000cr.To be built locally.

2.32 ALHs for the IN and CG.

3.5 OPVs from the Goa shipyard @ 2000cr.

4.5 FPVs from Garden Reach S @ 360 cr.

5.SAR eqpt. for the 3 services @ 900cr.

6.56 AVRO transport replacements from Indian pvt. industry only @ 13,000cr.

I wonder what role these new Dhruv's would play in the Navy? Earlier the Navy & CG were very clear that Dhruv did not have the endurance (>2.5 hrs) to operate as a weapons/sensor platform on the ship. Reportedly, the Dhruv did not last 1 hr in endurance trials with weapons load. Then there was an issue of foldable blades as well, that made Dhruv too large to fit in IN/ICG ships. Maybe these newly ordered birds are just for shore based activities?

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 20 Jul 2014 05:22

Latest naval Dhruv will have new segmented main rotor manual folding mechanism just like HAL LUH main rotor folding.

This has been accepted by IN and CG. CG chief has said that this new version will be able to operate from CG ships and can be stored in their hangers.

The folded dimensions are 14.05m by 5.1m for HAL Dhruv utility version and 14.8m by 5.1m for naval Dhruv with nose radar.

Recent dec 2013 41nos Dhruv order had one naval Dhruv as a test machine in addition to 40nos Dhruvs for IA.

IN if satisfied with current tests at Vishakapatnum will order 25 nos ASW versions of Naval Dhruv in addition to 16 nos mark3 utility versions as given in CAG report of 2010-11.

Main rotor folding of naval Dhruv is no longer an issue as being made out in media.

48 nos asw S70B+ 20nos ASW NMRH+ 25 nos ASW NAVAL DHRUV =93 ASW HELOS can fulfill IN requirement till 2025.

DAC has cleared 32 ALH mk3 to IN and CG worth Rs 7000Cr as per news reports though I think cost is on higher side and there is a mistake.

Even NH90 cant carry heavy exocet class missile as required by IN and it carries marte er of 310kg weight with 100km range.

Alh can also carry anti ship missle of 400 kg class like NSM of 130 km range.

IN is unrealistic in its NSQR.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 20 Jul 2014 05:31

Dhruv mk3 has endurance of 3hrs and 40min and a payload of 2430Kg as per brochure.

On a typical asw mission with 2*200kg torpedoes and dunking sonar endurance will be 80% of max as in NH90 brochure ie, 2hr 55min.

It is only if it has to carry two heavy anti ship missile of 600-700kg class the endurance will go down to practically nil as fuel carried will have to be reduced to 140kg/340kg.

2430 kg payload is divided into 1140kg internal fuel, 100kg radar, 300kg (crew of three), 300kg dunking sonar, 200kg sounbouy system and 2*200=400 kg two LWT torpedoes.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2014 09:29

I just checked the specs of the redoubtable SH60 seahawk one of the final contenders.
it apparently does not carry any ASM at all!! it did cart the 385KG penguin but is being phased out.
then the usual LWT or hellfire missiles.

neither the NH90 carries a heavy ASM as indicated by Sankum above.

a helicopter is really not the ideal platform to deliver anti ship strikes even if it extends the reach from the ship....for one thing it lacks the kind of power and speed of klub/brahmos, it lacks a powerful radar of a fighter doing the same, has no speed to escape any pursuers, not as sophisticated self protection EW , cannot refuel in the air.....its best kept for doing ASW and light strike using hellfire/helina type missiles against FACs against which it can be efficient and effective is defeating 'swarm' attacks by small FACs attempting to overwhelm less number of FFGs and land ASM hits.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2014 09:37

sea eagle + sea king brought some value in the days when the best ship based ASM we had were the SS-N-3 and later the Uran.

not anymore these days when everyone is packing a klub.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Jul 2014 12:12

sankum wrote:Dhruv mk3 has endurance of 3hrs and 40min and a payload of 2430Kg as per brochure.

What is the definition of endurance here? Does it include time taken to reach a particular distance from the mother ship, loiter in the area and return back to the ship? If this be true, what is the distance from the mother ship to which ALH can fly and hold?

On a typical asw mission with 2*200kg torpedoes and dunking sonar endurance will be 80% of max as in NH90 brochure ie, 2hr 55min.

What is ASW equipment profile of NH90 for a similar mission? If I understand correctly, NH90-NFH (NATO Fleet Helicopter) has payload capacity of 2,500 Kg AFTER taking into account ~2,500 kg of fuel. Internet gives me empty weight of NH-90 NFH at 6,430 Kg, fuel capacity of 2,500 kg leaving a payload capacity of another 2, 500 kg.

It is only if it has to carry two heavy anti ship missile of 600-700kg class the endurance will go down to practically nil as fuel carried will have to be reduced to 140kg/340kg. 2430 kg payload is divided into 1140kg internal fuel, 100kg radar, 300kg (crew of three), 300kg dunking sonar, 200kg sounbouy system and 2*200=400 kg two LWT torpedoes.

-What is likely to be equipment profile of NH-90 class of helicopter given that it has full 2,500 Kg available for a typical mission (less crew weight?

- If the NH-90 class DOES NOT carry Anti Ship missile, what would their endurance? Or, could they carry additional torpedoes, bouys etc?

- The empty weight of NH-90 NFH is 1,000 kg more than Tactical version. I'm assuming that most of this weight increment would be towards adding dedicated Anti-Submarine+Anti-Ship Warfare equipment. You've given ~100 Kg for Radar on ALH - considering that NH-90 class of helicopter packs equipment 4-5 times the weight of ALH radar (assuming 50%-60% increase in weight is for customization for Naval operations), would not such a helicopter have superior ASW+AshW warfare capability?

- NH-90 carries Thales Ocean Master Surveillance Radar - How does this compare with XV-400 on Naval ALH?

Link to Thales Ocean Master PDF:
(https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/defau ... tranet.pdf)

Link to DRDO XV-400:
http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs/LRDE/Engli ... chieve.jsp

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2014 13:35

My dream asw copter would have 4 lwt, sonobuoys, mad and onboard peocessing to launch attacks...just enough external payload for this, but massive internal fuel for a 6 hr mission or maybe two outrigger tanks on the roofline like some mh60 models.......fly out 1hr, patrol for 4 hrs and then 1hr return.

or in escort role fly near the task force for 6 hrs straight.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 20 Jul 2014 13:43

More than the NH90 I think the Dhruv should be compared to the AgustaWestland Lynx/Wildcat, also Eurocopter AS565 Panther/ Harbin Z-9.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2014 15:21

the Sh60 skeleton seems to come in many incarnations. the basic naval one has no pylons at all.
the socom model is a heavily armed marauder http://www.americanspecialops.com/image ... dap-bg.jpg
some come with additional fuel tanks outside which no doubt extend flight time http://www.americanspecialops.com/image ... mh-60l.jpg

it has a very low roof cabin though...not ideal for finding space to house racks of eqpt.

all the 25 sonbuoy launcher eqpt is placed inside the cabin in rigged up box and one operator station and thats it.
http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/micha ... _sea_hawk/

americans have good kit inside surely but the raw platform does not impress.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2014 15:22

the NH 90 walkaround is more impressive
http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/NH ... 0_NFH_NNLN

I believe this is another case of need for competitive tender and khan forcing his way in with a somewhat inferior product based on UPA links

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 20 Jul 2014 16:13

What is the definition of endurance here? Does it include time taken to reach a particular distance from the mother ship, loiter in the area and return back to the ship? If this be true, what is the distance from the mother ship to which ALH can fly and hold?

I am speaking strictly as an operator here. In helicopters the term 'range' tends to have less meaning and endurance becomes more important. This is because there is some hover time involved where one may not cover any distance but spend time with engines on and in air. The hover time will vary from mission to mission and hence range is not an effective measurement in helicopter missions. Endurance from what I remember is the 'Engine On' time. Fuel consumption on ground will be lower but ground time being low, it does not change endurance figures by much.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2014 17:41

Too late fr sea king replacement, but i think Dhruv engines have excess pwr reserve fr sea level ops, so instead of green new design to create more work, hal should upscale the Dhruv body by 30% with same powertrain and avionics and see how it goes.maybe a bigger rotor.
at least build a couple td to keep expertise in drawer and try for newer ships and mi17 replacement later

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 20 Jul 2014 17:52

Promotional poster

John · Post by **John** » 20 Jul 2014 18:20

Will EO sensor from Rudra be added to Naval Dhruv?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Jul 2014 21:45

Singha wrote:Too late fr sea king replacement, but i think Dhruv engines have excess pwr reserve fr sea level ops, so instead of green new design to create more work, hal should upscale the Dhruv body by 30% with same powertrain and avionics and see how it goes.maybe a bigger rotor.
at least build a couple td to keep expertise in drawer and try for newer ships and mi17 replacement later

Well the S-70 is supposedly well proven. NH-90 was having teething issues but should be reliable by now. Its basically a rolls royce versus our desi maal, so will cost more.
I do think we should just bite the bullet and buy the choppers asap for ASW work.

BTW per some open data from somebody who attended a industry event a naval indigenization seminar etc local ASW stuff and he noted that choppers are critical. BTW the Navy intends to make a ring with enhanced towed array kit + choppers but no movement since AKA the great was in charge. We are still struggling with local towed array sonars and we will have to import them for time being. Navy being navy will continue to support NPOL to the hilt till local stuff matures. But its a long way off since original program was not even getting HUMSA level performance which Navy noted was completely unsat as HUMSA is 80's tech, let alone HUMSA NG.
So basically we need to upscale the ASW effort which AKA sat on.

arun · Post by **arun** » 20 Jul 2014 22:01

Article dated July 1, 2014.

Corrosion issue halts Dutch NH90 deliveries :

Flight Global

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 20 Jul 2014 22:20

NH90 cant carry exocet class missile.

NH90 MARTE ER

2430kg was actually useful load which includes payload plus fuel according to Dhruv mk3 brochure and is actually MTOW minus empty weight.

Endurance is maximum time a helo can remain in air at optimum speed which is less than best range speed which is 212kmph and 630 km range (achieved in 3 hrs) with 20 min reserve in case of DHRUV.

If the helicopter is in continuous hover endurance decreases to 70% of max endurance as more energy is used in hover. So that in asw mission using dunking sonar while hovering and optimum speed while patrolling for maximum endurance total endurance decreases to 80% of the max.

Seahawk equipped with asw sensors is 6.9t while MTOW is 9.9t. So that 3t can be divide into 2t internal fuel and 1t (to 3 crew 300kg and 3*200kg=600kg LWT torpedoes). We can infer that Seahawk has same endurance as that of Dhruv in asw mission with one extra torpedo and more heavier and more capable sensors as 20% of the MTOW is carried as internal fuel in both cases.

NH90 can definitely carry more heavier and capable sensors and more torpedoes as useful load margin is there or 50% more fuel if internal space allows it to increase the endurance by 50% but it is dictated by mission requirement.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Jul 2014 01:01

Given the central role played by ASW helicopters in Naval Warfare, it goes w/o saying that one needs a very capable system. Let's not forget that this helicopter is there to deny the freedom of movement to enemy surface and sub-surface combatant plus provide safety to own ship(s) in the area.

And given the limited number of such choppers which can be carried on-board ships, the PER-UNIT system needs to count that much more. Needs to carry the best surveillance suite possible - I think both S-70B and NH-90 carry MAD - supplemented by adequate number of offensive weapons. However, once ASW choppers can fix the location of a submarine or warship, they can call the heavy artillery from mother ship or ships in the area.

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 21 Jul 2014 05:27

When did Dhruv come into the league of ASW submarines? Will they be carrying 1 or 2 dhotis/lungis with RPG's for AntiShip & Grenades for ASW mines. Dhruv is a 5 ton helicopter, while the other helicopters -S-70 & NH-90 are in the 10 ton leagues. If the NH-90 cannot carry an exocet, then the Dhruv can only carry it's photo.
The Indian Navy is growing and we should be consider replacing the Ka-27's with the new ASW helicopters. In the present context, we are looking at approx 20-30 ship-borne helicopters, not counting the aircraft carrier based ones. The Navy will also have to have substantial ASW helicopters onshore, to patrol fixed assets.
I have always had an inclination towards the EC725. Licensed production of this helicopter for both the Army/Airforce and Navy is possible. The parameters/characteristics of this helicopter are nearly double those of the Mi-17. The way, I look at Western verses Russian tech is that if you stripped all the technology from a Western helicopter, it will cost as much as a Russian one; and vice versa.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 21 Jul 2014 05:46

rohitvats wrote:Given the central role played by ASW helicopters in Naval Warfare, it goes w/o saying that one needs a very capable system. Let's not forget that this helicopter is there to deny the freedom of movement to enemy surface and sub-surface combatant plus provide safety to own ship(s) in the area.

And given the limited number of such choppers which can be carried on-board ships, the PER-UNIT system needs to count that much more. Needs to carry the best surveillance suite possible - I think both S-70B and NH-90 carry MAD - supplemented by adequate number of offensive weapons. However, once ASW choppers can fix the location of a submarine or warship, they can call the heavy artillery from mother ship or ships in the area.

100% endorse this. Using Dhruv for the ASW role sounds like a stretch. An extra hour of endurance that we could get via a 10 tonne helicopter is a huge deal because that could double the loiter time at the target site versus a 5 tonne option.
We might save a few $ with the indigenous approach, but there needs to be no compromise when defending capital ships that cost Rs 3,000 to 5,000 crore and carry hundreds of men! Also, we need ASW helis as of yesterday, so production rate is also a concern. Hope the IN is 100% behind the decision.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Jul 2014 06:21

India needs to take a few small risks. Perhaps in the form of brand new machines. In collaboration with a Phoren entity. Something she can then can take and build on in the longer term.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 21 Jul 2014 10:15

Singha wrote:Too late fr sea king replacement, but i think Dhruv engines have excess pwr reserve fr sea level ops, so instead of green new design to create more work, hal should upscale the Dhruv body by 30% with same powertrain and avionics and see how it goes.maybe a bigger rotor.
at least build a couple td to keep expertise in drawer and try for newer ships and mi17 replacement later

Sir, Class 1 ops only performance will be desirable, (mandatory by ONGC). Over sea Operations, landing on Ship Decks, Heli decks of Oil Rigs etc are critical and complicated. After a civilian MI 17 helicopter crash in Bombay High Ops where every one on board lost their lives, all sub class 1 helicopter ops over sea has been suspended by ONGC and other civilian operators. Class 1 ops are as laid out by DGCA. All Class 1 capable helicopters are twin engined and have excess of power even while going in for landing (the highest power regime reqd for normal flt ops).

The Navy, Coast Guard have been operating below class 1 and so did the IAF, but for ONGC ops as and when undertaken, even IAF goes Class 1 and equips for ETOPS with all safety on board. Else, ONGC passengers do not sit.

If we reduce the spare power available on Dhruv, it will severely affect over sea operations, because landing through hover on a ship deck pitching and rolling is complicated and you need power. Though, I agree that in military ops we may not need to be so uptight on power requirements as in Civilian Ops.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 21 Jul 2014 10:47

In Dhruv mk1/2 category A performance i.e, safe take off with one engine inoperative TOW is limited to 5.2t as compared to MTOW of 5.5t.

With shakti engine with 20% more power cat A performance will go up to MTOW with sufficient margin.

if Dhruv is redesigned with larger body and larger rotors it is completely a new design.

LCH with Shakti engine has a raised MTOW OF 5.8t and same can be that of naval Dhruv but will need strengthened airframe and landing gear.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 21 Jul 2014 11:05

The IN navy ideal asw helo is of 12t class which is NMRH with long endurance as compared to Seahawk of 10t class or NALH of 5.5t class.

But there is requirement of all class of helos.

NLUH Rfp for 56 nos was of MTOW of 4.5t class with radar/ sonbuoy /torpedo but no dunking sonar and manual folding of main rotors. This class can be addressed by naval Dhruv.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 21 Jul 2014 12:01

The decision to proceed with an ASW version of Dhruv is a very welcome one. It will plug a critical gap in fleet requirements, while larger platforms are acquired. The Dhruv wouldn't be unique since both the Lynx and Z-9 fall into the same class. It would be cheaper to operate, and easier to replace given existing procurement processes. The Chetak MATCH is long in the tooth and in need of quick replacement. With th INs varied operational requirements, its not a quetion of 5t vs 10t, there is a need for both.