Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

[Singha]

for 90% of the places a carrier based airwing can reach, the USAF can always claim they have good land based infra and decades of training to launch heavy land based squadrons into the fight.
the shortlist of trouble spots could be:
- Gulf/Afpak - thumrait, al udeid, incirlik , iraq, saudi bases, diego
- south china sea - japan, soko, guam on a permanent basis, taiwan, singapore and philipines if needed
- bering sea - aleutian islands and hokkaido
- kola peninsula - norway, germany, poland, baltic states and denmark

it is only in the case of US needing to attack chile or new zealand where the usaf has no real basing reach.

and a F15E/B1b can carry a lot more and further than F35/F18 I guess. the CVN air wing does have a slight advantage in being able to within 2 days reach a operational tempo and start the fight.....the usaf might need a couple weeks to shift people and materials to the theater and undertake some training before being war ready on a comprehensive scale.

[Viv S]

Getting there is not an issue, getting the supplies there for a moderate tempo of ops is however something that is hard even for the LHD's. Do you have supplies stored there for good?

Not on board. At least not while its functioning in an amphibious capacity. You have retain it as a package on base and transfer it to the ship while its in dock.

In terms of support for air operations, it'll function the same way that our other full sized carriers do. Post sortie servicing and only basic repair. Again, same model as the USMC/RAF/SwAF would use with forward based Harrier/Viggen/Gripen detachments.

Basic difference here in that the USMC is doing long drawn deployments at extended ranges while the IN will be using it for surges and deploying it only in our immediate neighborhood. Coming to cost, the Juan Carlos design is already equipped for carrier operations. The only modification will be the installation of arresting gear.

As for utility, if the ship isn't required for sub hunting and no amphibious operations are required, then all four LHDs already have very limited utility for the Navy in wartime. They'll operate at best only as auxiliaries.

The aircraft's range-payload isn't that major an issue either. The flight deck on the Juan Carlos is actually longer that the channel for takeoffs on the Vikramaditya (200m to 160-180m). Some of it will get eaten up by the arrestor gear, but not much (and the designs for the IN could still be modified for a slightly longer flight deck). It'll never generate as many sorties as a full sized carrier, but that's less a downside and more a limitation.

The Tejas Mk1 with 2J3 engine can comfortably take off in less than 300 metres. The N-Tejas will have a higher TWR, lower wing-loading and LEVCONs. For basic air defence and interception the payload will be quite sufficient. It can free up the fighters on the carriers for strike or long range patrol, and/or can reinforce them in the air as the situation demands.

As a complement to a PROPER carrier "at time of need" or when its own AW is overwhelmed, it (superficially) looks like a very expensive idea that has a very limited return, of which a lot can be obtained by simply taking measures to up the sortie generation rate of the existing fighters, procure adequate tankers and provide long range tanker support to the existing carrier aircraft for a greater TOS, OR by designing future carriers to be bigger or incorporate things like EMALS that provide a big boost to the sortie generation rates ( Ford can do 160 sorties a day continuously for 30+ days and close to 200 sorties per day for about a week - thanks to EMALS and its electrical improvements).

The expense involved is significant but not huge, given the difference in capability available. The Australian order for two Canberra class LHDs was about $2.4bn in 2007, compared to $2bn for the two Mistrals ordered by Russia in 2010. And if we were to get a STOVL type down the line (a la Australia, Japan, Singapore, Spain) the former would be a better option for carrier operations.

As for maximizing the sortie rate on our existing carriers and adding tanker support, that's a completely independent issue that should be sanctioned regardless.

If you look at what the USMC is doing, or what the Japanese and Aussie think tanks are proposing, it isn't to create a MINI CARRIER to provide fleet defense for a carrier, a ship or anything. It is strictly to support the troops landing downrange and to move along with them. The USMC LHD's would be always operating under the umbrella provided for by the uSAF and USN so for them air to air is about being their at the right time to protect the skies over the marines.

And that's all well and good when they're required to carry out CAS to support amphibious operations and have the luxury of adequate support from the USN and USAF. Whole different ballgame when the USN & USAF take lead in an Air-Sea Battle. The theatre commander will be thankful for every single USMC fighter he has in his fleet.

Same goes for us. Ordinarily the IN would be able to handle a blockade of Pakistan in wartime without too much fuss. Same task during a two-front war becomes a major challenge with a significant portion of the IAF locked into the Eastern theatre. The bulk of the PLAN fleet could be checked at the Malacca and Sunda itself, with P-8Is and Kamortas hunting any submarines operational in the IOR. But the IN will want every aircraft it can muster to check air attacks from the PAF on an IN task force operating east of the Hormuz.

In fact, carrier capability applies even more our situation because we don't have any significant amphibious challenges. There's the possibility of an operation to retake the A&N Islands but the likelihood of it falling to a PLA amphibious invasion in the first place is small, to put it mildly.

The WASP's, AMERICAS are limited by how many F-135's they can carry onboard, and how much deck space they want to trade for the AW (not so much with the early built americas)..Ultimately they cannot scale up much from the current F-35's they carry which is between 6 and 8.

The USMC cannot swap out its MV-22s or AH-1Zs for F-35Bs at short notice, given that it'll most likely be operating thousands of kms from its home base (aside from the one based in Japan). We don't have the same limitations.

In my opinion, any such Navy would be better off simply designing a MINI CARRIER to begin with and using it for a fewer number of missions but doing those missions rather well.

A clean sheet design for a new carrier will be extremely expensive. Upwards of $2 billion each, ten times more than the cost differential between the Juan Carlos and the Mistral.

[brar_w]

@VIV, my basic understanding was to have an LHD serve as swing ship meaning that it acts as an LHD doing what that sort of thing is designed for and then transitioning onto the mini carrier role. I have severe reservations with that concept, but if you design an LHD like the Juan carlos for such a role with no limit to how much capability you can sacrifice for such a mission you can make it work. In that case, I would still recommend using a STOVL F-35B, as most would be doing for such ships. You have a much much better fighter to bring to the fight and can cover a much wider range of missions with that. I seriously doubt however, any NAVY would look at that as an option. Both Japan and Australia would use their LHD's much like the WASP and those looking at a carrier would keep on funding a carrier and shaping its size and sortie rates to match the threat with time. I expect both the IN and China to increase the carrier size in the coming decades.

[Nikhil T]

Tidbit from Shekhar Gupta in the latest India Today mag, about a Nausena Bhawan in Delhi.

India Today link

BY THE WAY: In a week when India observed its Navy Day, a tale of how Lutyens' Delhi works. The Navy, being the smallest and most silent force, has so far been denied a headquarters building of its own. Successive chiefs have petitioned the government to rectify this, but unsuccessfully. Typical of A.K. Antony, then Raksha Mantri, when faced with the same demand, he passed the buck on to urban development minister Kamal Nath, for whom, as we know well, life begins and ends with impoverished Chhindwara, his pocketborough in Madhya Pradesh. The Navy brass came to him with two demands, a plot for a Nausena Bhawan and a permanent house for the Vice-Chief. "I will do this, of course," said Nath, "who can say no to the Navy." And then he paused as the admirals smiled in joy. "But tell me first, Admiral, what will you do for Chhindwara?"

For once, even the very wise admiral was speechless. Chhindwara (Google it) is probably the most land-locked district in India. What does the Navy do for it? Two chiefs have, however, told me blushingly, "we did something". My own Lutyens' grapevine tells me it was something harmless like a recruitment parade. A plot behind the new DRDO Bhawan, in the very heart of Lutyens' Delhi, has accordingly been granted for a Nausena Bhawan.

[Rahul M]

long overdue.

[negi]

While it is nice to see current govt. eager to provide the IN with what it needs , I am not sure if this fetish with having a navy house in Lutyens is a healthy sign . It is more about power and privilege than anything to do with IN's operational capability, it sounds similar to Admiral Joshi's demand about having similar bandobast of personnel in the NHQ as the AHQ with all the pomp and show.

[chetak]

Tidbit from Shekhar Gupta in the latest India Today mag, about a Nausena Bhawan in Delhi.

India Today link

BY THE WAY: In a week when India observed its Navy Day, a tale of how Lutyens' Delhi works. The Navy, being the smallest and most silent force, has so far been denied a headquarters building of its own. Successive chiefs have petitioned the government to rectify this, but unsuccessfully. Typical of A.K. Antony, then Raksha Mantri, when faced with the same demand, he passed the buck on to urban development minister Kamal Nath, for whom, as we know well, life begins and ends with impoverished Chhindwara, his pocketborough in Madhya Pradesh. The Navy brass came to him with two demands, a plot for a Nausena Bhawan and a permanent house for the Vice-Chief. "I will do this, of course," said Nath, "who can say no to the Navy." And then he paused as the admirals smiled in joy. "But tell me first, Admiral, what will you do for Chhindwara?"

For once, even the very wise admiral was speechless. Chhindwara (Google it) is probably the most land-locked district in India. What does the Navy do for it? Two chiefs have, however, told me blushingly, "we did something". My own Lutyens' grapevine tells me it was something harmless like a recruitment parade. A plot behind the new DRDO Bhawan, in the very heart of Lutyens' Delhi, has accordingly been granted for a Nausena Bhawan.

Construction and workers must be monitored very carefully to ensure that no listening /surveillance devices are embedded during building of this HQs

[Thakur_B]

While it is nice to see current govt. eager to provide the IN with what it needs , I am not sure if this fetish with having a navy house in Lutyens is a healthy sign . It is more about power and privilege than anything to do with IN's operational capability, it sounds similar to Admiral Joshi's demand about having similar bandobast of personnel in the NHQ as the AHQ with all the pomp and show.

The navy operates from several premises in Delhi. This will bring them all under one roof.

[Paul]

They should start to demolish a few of these 100x120 Lutyens bungalows to make rooms for a memorial for these Offices and build a memorial for the armed forces

[Kersi D]

Just now I visited to indian navy free static display of its warships on western naval base mumbai.

Simply it was an awesome feeling to get a chance on board INS Talwar stealth ship and INS Delhi destroyer. Many sisterstealth ships of talwar class can be seen on various piers, three kilo class and two foxtrot subs can also be seen upclose. Four Godavari class, virat carrier and two sister ships of delhi class destroyer also can be seen. If anyone happens to be in mumbai then please get a chance to see this battlegroup upclose.


But really aweful display of INS Sindhurakshak seems to have given bitter taste of ground reality of india's naval might, oh my godness that sub was put on to floating object where one can easily see its accident damage just below its tower with thick holes on both sides. People were asking question to present officers who seems little intrested to answer, they were just saying it is under repair.

Mr Bihanga.
Pl re collect all that you saw, carefully.
IN would not be having any 'Foxtrot' class subs. You may hv seen a Type 209.

IN has 3 'Godavari' class frigates

[Viv S]

@VIV, my basic understanding was to have an LHD serve as swing ship meaning that it acts as an LHD doing what that sort of thing is designed for and then transitioning onto the mini carrier role. I have severe reservations with that concept, but if you design an LHD like the Juan carlos for such a role with no limit to how much capability you can sacrifice for such a mission you can make it work. In that case, I would still recommend using a STOVL F-35B, as most would be doing for such ships. You have a much much better fighter to bring to the fight and can cover a much wider range of missions with that.

Thing is, unlike the Hyuga, Izumo, Dokdo, or Ocean, the Juan Carlos was designed at inception to have proper carrier capability. The Spaniards currently only operate a squadron of Harriers off it, but IIRC post-2025 they'll replace their Harriers with 16 F-35Bs.

Regarding STOVL aircraft, agreed. The N-Tejas and MiG-29K will inevitably run into obsolescence issues by the end of the next decade while the N-PAK FA (& N-MCA) is unlikely to be suitable for STOBAR ops given its supercruise optimized design.

I seriously doubt however, any NAVY would look at that as an option. Both Japan and Australia would use their LHD's much like the WASP and those looking at a carrier would keep on funding a carrier and shaping its size and sortie rates to match the threat with time. I expect both the IN and China to increase the carrier size in the coming decades.

With China increasing its carrier fleet over the coming years, Japan cannot afford to ignore the force projection capability of carrier based fighters, especially in the event of a face-off with China over (relatively) distant island territories. There's already a realization that they're overdependent on the US whose days as the world's sole superpower as coming to a close.

Australia and Turkey picked the Juan Carlos over the more cost-effective (in a purely LHD role) Mistral class, suggesting that over the long term, they'll also order a complement of STOVL fighters to exploit that added investment.

[brar_w]

Thing is, unlike the Hyuga, Izumo, Dokdo, or Ocean, the Juan Carlos was designed at inception to have proper carrier capability. The Spaniards currently only operate a squadron of Harriers off it, but IIRC post-2025 they'll replace their Harriers with 16 F-35Bs

None are designed to operate non STOVL aircraft, you would require changes and take a penalty on the aircraft. Yet unless you treat this as a dual mission, you would have to call the ship to port, do what you have to do to set up the AW and then ship it out. Thats a logistical nightmare..Its better to operate them as dedicated carriers with STOVL aircraft, and use them as LHD's if and when required. Otherwise you loose a lot in flexibility.

With China increasing its carrier fleet over the coming years, Japan cannot afford to ignore the force projection capability of carrier based fighters, especially in the event of a face-off with China over (relatively) distant island territories. There's already a realization that they're overdependent on the US whose days as the world's sole superpower as coming to a close.

And there are plenty of ways to go around doing this other then arm up their LHD's. They have the shipbuilding to actually go ahead and start making QE sized carriers and still beat china's carrier program even if they start in 2017-2018. There is a lot they can do to project force around the disputed territories even without starting to think about modifying their designs to carry the F-35B. As far as reliance on the US, they are upping it through integration. The entire point of integration is that Japan can take over missions sets (or Australia as an example) without loosing out the qualitative nature of the information being sought. So it doesn't matter if it is Japanese Triton providing SA to USN assets, or if it is US P-8 talking to a Japanese Triton, or if Japan has the ability to land X number of V-22's to support USMC on a ship at time of emergency. So even if the US over deploys itself elsewhere, Japan can compensate by providing the surge required to make up for the gap.

Clearly the next big worry for china is the future fighter programs in Japan and with the USN, given that both of these would be dedicated programs designed around the growing Chinese A2AD and would factor in the vastness of the pacific.

[arshyam]

From BR home page: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=21473

Indian Navy keen on developing Tuticorin port - PTI, Economic Times

CHENNAI; Indian Navy is planning to further develop the port capabilities of Tuticorin in Tamil Nadu to be able to make it as one of its forward operating base, a senior naval official said here today.

"There is a proposal with the Navy to develop Tuticorin (port) further to augment its capability in terms of capacity. The Navy is looking to expand its use for naval operations," Commodore Amar K Mahadevan, Naval Officer In-charge (Tamil Nadu and Puducherry) told reporters here.

The proposal to develop Tuticorin was part of the 12th five-year plan under the Ministry of Defence, he said, adding, developing the port would have berths for naval ships and the Indian Navy can have a better reach in that area.

"It would take a long time, as lots of lands have to be acquired for the Navy and people there have to be replaced," he said. {getting land will be difficult, compounded by the lack of many natural harbours in the area.}

Earlier, he read the Navy Day message and said the theme for naval activities for 2015 is "Indian Navy - Ensuring Secure Seas for a Resurgent Nation."

Replying to a query, he said the Navy was facing 20 to 25 per cent shortage in its force.

Asked about the arrest and conviction of an agent of Pakistani ISI agency, who reportedly had taken pictures of some naval establishments in India, he said "with a mobile phone anyone can take a picture from outside. But he has not been able to take any picture of the inside of the establishment."

Commenting on the movement of Chinese ships in the Bay of Bengal area, he said China was building ports for Lanka and Indian Navy was totally aware of the movement of ships in the area.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

[arshyam]

An interview with the CONS: Indian Navy is in the process of a transformation: Navy chief - S. Anandan, The Hindu

Excerpts:

Question: But the Navy, though expanding, has been in the news for all the wrong reasons lately. A spate of accidents has given it a bad name. What are the measures undertaken to ensure that the issues are tided over and quality of operations is attained?

Answer: The Navy is a highly professional service, and one that is technologically very advanced. For every action that needs to be carried out on board our ships submarines and aircraft, we need to follow procedures, the standard operating procedures, safety procedures and the like. And when these procedures are not followed, or not followed with alacrity, there are bound to be room for errors. And, when there is room for errors, accidents do happen.

The other aspect is that the lifespan of a ship or a submarine is nearly 30 to 35 years. Therefore we are bound to have our assets, nearly 50 per cent or so, which would be nearly 20 years old.

When we have older ships, the requirement of maintenance is that much more. And warships are meant to go harm’s way. They carry ammunition, fuel, which is [such] a combination that unless we follow safety procedures, accidents could happen. Therefore when we had these incidents, we took very serious view of that and we instituted safety procedures, safety audits, awareness and a culture of safety so that people are much more careful while operating the ships.

We must be aware that it’s a very difficult task that is performed by our sailors and officers out at sea. It’s not easy to operate in a submarine or on board a ship in rough weather or even normal weather when you have to grapple with so many things. And we need to understand that nobody would like accidents to happen.

It is the aspect related to so much good work that is done and when these get projected in a different manner, they do impact the good work that our sailors and officers are doing -- spending sleepless nights at sea so that our citizens can sleep peacefully. So all measures are being taken to minimise accidents.

Question: Diminishing submarine strength has dogged the Navy for some time, but there has been no concrete step to address this. On the proposal for the next line of conventional submarines under P75I, which has been rejuvenated recently, are things moving fast?

Answer: Submarines are a very important part of the naval inventory because they help us realise our task as far as sea denial is concerned in the blue water operations. What we did firstly was to make sure that the operational-cum-refit cycles of our existing submarines was looked at very carefully to see that the operational submarines would be fully operational and combat ready. We are also undertaking an aspect related to their service life extension so that we can give them a longer lease of life—both to the Kilo-class and the SSKs.

Then we took stock of the ongoing submarine construction programme, the P75 Scorpenes, to see that there will be no further delays in their induction schedule. The first submarine will roll out in September 2016 and our intention is to speed up induction of the remaining five in a reasonable period of time. Apart from that, we have INS Chakra on lease, a very potent platform. INS Arihant is being made ready for sea trials. It will go out shortly and we are making all efforts to see that its first sea sortie takes place on completion of harbour trials.

Coming on to P75I, we have put up a proposal [for six conventional submarines] and we have had the first acceptance of necessity by the government with regard to making all the P75I submarines within the country, in Indian shipyards. This proposal is now being processed for approval at various levels and we are hopeful that this will speed up the induction of the Indian submarines.

Question: The Navy has every reason to be unhappy about the LCA Navy development programme, which has been marred by time overruns and poor pace of development. Does the Navy still need it?

Answer: It is a very important programme for us because INS Vikrant, our first Indigenous Aircraft Carrier under construction at Kochi, will be capable to operate the LCA. So it will be very important for us that the LCA programme is speeded up so that the induction can take place in a time-bound schedule. We have conveyed this to the agencies concerned and are monitoring the progress of this very closely. We hope to start the trials of this at the SBTF [Shore-based Test Facility] in Goa and pave the way for the LCAs to get inducted. Yes, there has been a delay and this is certainly a cause for concern and all efforts are being put in place to see that the progressive trials of the LCA are expedited to get this aircraft inducted.

Question: But are the makers listening and showing signs of improvement?

Answer: The responsibility [to deliver the aircraft] is that of ADA [Aeronautical Development Agency] and the HAL [Hindustan Aeronautics Limited] and we have very high level periodic meetings. We have conveyed to the MoD [Ministry of Defence] and [the Department of] Defence Production our concern over the delay and it is at these high-levels that it is being monitored now.

Question: Is the Navy interested in procuring more ALH [Advanced light Helicopters] Dhruv?

Answer: We need additional ALH for our coastal security requirements. We will need them for shallow water ASW[anti-submarine warfare] requirements. Currently we use them for SAR [search and rescue] and as utility helicopters; that’s what we will be primarily using them for.

Naval aviation as such is at the threshold of major inductions at this point in time. We have inducted the MiG29 K fighter and trainer versions, which are operating from on board INS Vikramaditya. We will have additional aircraft inducted to consolidate their operationalisation process.

For long-range maritime recce, we have inducted six P8-I aircraft, based at INS Rajali [at Arakkonam]and these have been a tremendous boost as far as our long range maritime patrol is concerned because they can operate and carry out surveillance in large areas of the Indian ocean region, our primary area of interest. They are fitted with equipment and weapons for anti-submarine warfare. Two more [aircraft] will complete the first lot. And we have a case in progress, using the option clause, for four additional aircraft.

Read the full interview here: http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/r ... epage=true

[Nikhil T]

While it is nice to see current govt. eager to provide the IN with what it needs , I am not sure if this fetish with having a navy house in Lutyens is a healthy sign . It is more about power and privilege than anything to do with IN's operational capability, it sounds similar to Admiral Joshi's demand about having similar bandobast of personnel in the NHQ as the AHQ with all the pomp and show.

The navy operates from several premises in Delhi. This will bring them all under one roof.

Navy seeks to oust squatter Army from prime Delhi plot
Same for the Army, they have no permanent HQ as well. In fact, they're both gunning for the same land to build the HQ. In any case, an appalling situation. Contrast this with Behen Mayawati who was allowed by UPA to occupy 4 Lutyens bungalows (with 8 bedrooms each) - bungalows that are usually reserved for Cabinet ministers only. #India

[chackojoseph]

Jingos,

Any Questions for INS Vikramaditya? Am scheduled to be on it tomorrow.

[Thakur_B]

Jingos,

Any Questions for INS Vikramaditya? Am scheduled to be on it tomorrow.

- How's the food ?
- Sortie rates in wartime conditions.
- Any plans to integrated MiG-29K with lightning pod to enable them using a larger variety of LGBs.
- Any plans to integrate EW suite as on MiG-29Upg

[srai]

Jingos,

Any Questions for INS Vikramaditya? Am scheduled to be on it tomorrow.

• What type of air defence is going to be fitted and when?
• How does the shore-based STOBAR training translate to the actual on the carrier?
• Did any subsequent refresher courses occur for pilots in the US since the batches were trained many years before Vikramaditya came into IN's hands?
• How does the IN plan to use its 8 LCA Mk.1 on order? What is the status/schedule of STOBAR trails of NP-1/2?

[chackojoseph]

Haha Thakur B. I vl give you a personal review on your first question.

Srai, no to your second last question. Is it needed anymore?

[Rahul M]

max plane load possible, with Mig-29k/NLCA/Helo mix.

[deejay]

^^^ When does she go in for refit with upgrades / refurbishments?

[sankum]

Max aircraft load of ins Vikramaditya is 13mig 29k+4helo in hanger and 11 mig29k+2helo on deck for total of 24 mig 29k+ 6 helo=30 aircraft.

According to reports IN planned standard load will be 20 mig26k+ 8 helos. For operational flexibility hanger will carry reduced load of 9 mig 29k+ 6helos.

Will it carry newly acquired Ka28 ASW helos as reported in some reports (which I think are wrong) or NALH for ASW role as in other reports?

Planned 8 helos may be split into 4 AEW Kamov31 and 4 ASW Helos as compared to IAC load of 10 Helos of 4 AEW Kamov31 and 6 ASW Helos which is standard load of IN carriers.

[Philip]

Long overdue to develop Tuticorin into an FOB with all the accoutrements, airfield,separate naval harbour,etc. If the revised plan to have a passage through the Palk Srtaits for lighter vessels is expedited,using either the Pamban Bridge modernisation,etc.,our DDG and FG warships ,and even amphibs upto 35000t can avoid circumnavigating Sri Lanka. What should also be developed at Tuticorin is a full-fledged amphiib warfare school which could later become the equiv of the Naval Academy at Kerala. Looking into the future,a couple of decades hence,the nation should have its own Marine Corps,initially under either the IA or IN.From base TTN,forces could swing in 3 directions,south,east and west to deal with any crisis in the IOR. basing LRMP aircraft and MIG-29K sqds. or even FGFAs at TTN would be a huge force multiplier for the services in the IOR region.

[Aditya G]

Jingos,

Any Questions for INS Vikramaditya? Am scheduled to be on it tomorrow.

- CIWS plans? Where will be the installation and how many missiles? What is the Navy's grievance with the Kashtan system?

[Philip]

http://www.ceylontoday.lk/90-79007-news ... -navy.html
Ceylontoday, 2014-12-01 02:00:00

Chinese submarines: Big worry to Indian Navy

By Sulochana Ramiah Mohan

Director, Security Risks Asia, a South Asian security risk consultancy firm and an expert in counter militancy and terrorism , Rtd. Brigadier Rahul Bhonsle tells Ceylon Today that the Chinese PLA Navy's intention was clearly to gain exposure to the waters of the Indian Ocean for future operations. "This should be a big worry for Indian Navy. More over reports indicate that the PLA Navy has exclusive berthing rights at the Port in Colombo and also in Hambantota, which effectively implies entry, exit and stocking including fuel and munitions over which Sri Lanka has no control."


Q
How serious is it for India when Sri Lanka embrace China and entertain its submarines?
A: The issue of military presence of extra territorial powers in the neighbourhood is a very serious one for India as well as Sri Lanka. In the larger context this denotes an alliance between two countries in the neighbourhood, which may be inimical to Indian interests in the long term. This may also be against the spirit of the 1987 India-Sri Lanka Accord, though both the present trend is not to acknowledge or even refer to the same. In specific context to operations by submarines which have special connotation as war fighting systems in terms of stealth and thus deception the presence of subs even for refueling assumes significance


Q
At a time India expresses its concern on China's presence and its submarines coming to Sri Lanka, National Security Adviser of India Dr. Ajit Kumar Doval will be delivering the keynote address at the inaugural session of the International Maritime Conference, 'Galle Dialogue 2014' today (Dec 1). What are the 'musts' Dr. Doval needs to clear with Rajapaksa, related to India's concerns?
A: With reference to the Galle Dialogue 2014, the theme of which is, 'Cooperation and Collaboration for Maritime Prosperity', there is a need to highlight the concerns that emerge from inter-State competition in the oceanic region that would result in providing space for State and non-State actors to pursue a malign agenda. Replication of the power conflict in West Asia, where one of the factors contributing to the rise of ISIS was regional and global rivalry with reference to Syria in the Indian Ocean Region may not seem far-fetched if we look back to the 1980's, which had resulted in the rise of the LTTE. India must clearly highlight the concerns relating to malign manifestations that may arise due to emergence of such a power rivalry in the IOR of which the region and Sri Lanka has been a victim in the past.


Q
What are the major areas of concerns India needs to work on with Sri Lanka.?
A: There are a number of issues that are today concerns, where both the countries need to put their strategic heads together. First is resolution of the ethnic issue in a manner that satisfies minimal aspirations of all communities on the Island, the second is the fishermen issue technical and maritime dimension, the third is reasserting commitment by India and Sri Lanka to prevent activities by intra and extra regional States to undermine each other's security including support to terrorism by Pakistan , fourthly India's need to guide Sri Lanka through the process of transition from civil war to a humanitarian State, not just in terms of economic development but also political and socio-economically equity based one. Finally reaffirming economic and trade ties are important.


Q
Was India convinced with Sri Lanka Navy Vice-Admiral Perera's explanations to Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral R.K. Dhowan who said the Chinese submarines were in Sri Lanka for refueling and crew relaxation when he was called over to India for discussions?
A: The larger context of the presence cannot be missed out despite the Indian CNS statement. Submarines as war fighting systems are not necessary for anti piracy operations. The Chinese PLA Navy's intention was clearly to gain exposure to the waters of the Indian Ocean for future operations. This should be a big worry for Indian Navy. More over reports indicate that the PLA Navy has exclusive berthing rights at the port in Colombo and also in Hambantota, which effectively implies entry, exit and stocking including fuel and munitions over which Sri Lanka has no control. Admiral Dhowan may have felt confident that the Indian Navy could be able to militarily manage the situation, thus the comments.


Q
The Indian Navy is closely watching the activities of the Chinese PLA Navy in the Indian Ocean, including movement of Chinese submarines to Sri Lankan ports, even as the Indian Army is getting ready to commence joint military exercises with China. If India can work closely with China, why not Sri Lanka?
A: India Sri Lanka military relations continue to remain strong despite some hiccups as training in Tamil Nadu in the past. Recently an Army Special Forces exercises was held by both the countries and the series is likely to continue. Similarly India and China military to military relations have been stable for the past couple of years despite the transgressions on the Line of Actual Control in the North. It is the lack of transparency that causes problems and here it is what makes the submarine issues of concern to India.


Q
What is India's concern that it arranged Dr. Doval to meet the President and the common candidate Sirisena?
A: It is not unusual for the Indian NSA to meet the two presidential candidates given the close political relations between leaders of the two countries. India will of course not likely to be seen meddling in the internal affairs of Sri Lanka at a time when elections are just over a month away. Thus it was important for Doval a close confidant of Prime Minister Narendra Modi to meet both the President and Sirisena. I would not be surprised if Doval makes his own assessments of the prospects for the candidates during his visit, which is not a unusual thing to do at such a juncture in the political cross roads for the highest office in the country.


Q
Is the whole affair between Sri Lanka and India bitter or getting better?
A: There has been a degree of bitterness due to a number of issues cited above with two important factors, delay in resolution of the ethnic impasse and the expanding profile of China and Pakistan in economic and security affairs in Sri Lanka which are not seen in the interest of India and Sri Lanka. Post Presidential elections in Sri Lanka, both the countries need to reset the clock to overcome these apprehensions on priority and navigate the choppy waters across the Palk Straits in mutual harmony.[/quote]

[Aditya_V]

Article today in Toi Rattled by Chinese submarines, India starts rebuilding fleet

Looking at the pic it looks like INS Chakra but the caption says INS Arihant. IS the caption correct?

[member_23370]

Thats is chakra. It was posted here..
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indi ... post973195

[Aditya_V]

Thanks thats what i thought, the sub in the pic has no space for launching BM's and BGRV's

[shravanp]

Article today in Toi Rattled by Chinese submarines, India starts rebuilding fleet

Looking at the pic it looks like INS Chakra but the caption says INS Arihant. IS the caption correct?

It appears TOI is more rattled and put akula pic as arihant.

[Philip]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/ ... GM20141202

Rattled by Chinese submarines, India joins other nations in rebuilding fleet
BY SANJEEV MIGLANI AND TOMMY WILKES
NEW DELHI Tue Dec 2, 2014 6:37pm EST

Indian Navy's INS Arihant submarine is pictured at the naval warehouse in the southern Indian city of Visakhapatnam November 18, 2014. REUTERS/R Narendra
Indian Navy's INS Arihant submarine is pictured at the naval warehouse in the southern Indian city of Visakhapatnam November 18, 2014.
CREDIT: REUTERS/R NARENDRA

(Reuters) - India is speeding up a navy modernization program and leaning on its neighbors to curb Chinese submarine activity in the Indian Ocean, as nations in the region become increasingly jittery over Beijing's growing undersea prowess.

Just months after a stand-off along the disputed border dividing India and China in the Himalayas, Chinese submarines have shown up in Sri Lanka, the island nation off India's southern coast. China has also strengthened ties with the Maldives, the Indian Ocean archipelago.

China's moves reflect its determination to beef up its presence in the Indian Ocean, through which four-fifths of its oil imports pass, and coincides with escalating tension in the disputed South China Sea, where Beijing's naval superiority has rattled its neighbors.

"We should be worried the way we have run down our submarine fleet. But with China bearing down on us, the way it is on the Himalayas, the South China Sea and now the Indian Ocean, we should be even more worried," said Arun Prakash, former chief of the Indian navy.

"Fortunately, there are signs this government has woken up to the crisis," he said. "But it will take time to rebuild. We should hope that we don't get into a face-off with the Chinese, that our diplomacy and alliances will keep things in check."

Prime Minister Narendra Modi's government has ordered an accelerated tendering process to build six conventional diesel-electric submarines at an estimated cost of 500 billion rupees ($8.1 billion), in addition to six similar submarines that French firm DCNS is assembling in Mumbai port to replace a nearly 30-year-old fleet hit by a run of accidents.

The country's first indigenously built nuclear submarine - loaded with nuclear-tipped missiles and headed for sea trials this month - joins the fleet in late 2016. In the meantime, India is in talks with Russia to lease a second nuclear-propelled submarine, navy officials told Reuters.

The government has already turned to industrial group Larsen & Toubro Ltd, which built the hull for the first submarine, to manufacture two more nuclear submarines, sources with knowledge of the matter said.

Elsewhere in the region, Australia is planning to buy up to 12 stealth submarines from Japan, while Vietnam plans to acquire as many as four additional Kilo-class submarines to add to its current fleet of two. Taiwan is seeking U.S. technology to build up its own submarine fleet.

Japan, locked in a dispute with China over islands claimed by both nations, is increasing its fleet of diesel-electric attack submarines to 22 from 16 over the next decade or so.

OUTNUMBERED

India's navy currently has only 13 ageing diesel-electric submarines, only half of which are operational at any given time due to refits. Last year, one of its submarines sank after explosions and a fire while it was docked in Mumbai.

China is estimated to have 60 conventional submarines and 10 nuclear-powered submarines, including three armed with nuclear weapons.

Ma Jiali, an expert at the China Reform Forum’s Centre for Strategic Studies which is affiliated with the Central Party School, said Beijing's top concern in the Indian Ocean was safeguarding the passage of its commodities, especially oil.

"There are many voices in India who believe the Indian Ocean belongs solely to India, and no other country belongs there. That line of thought is common – but of course it shouldn’t be viewed like that. Our (China’s) view is that there should be dialogue and discussion between China and India.”

With India building its navy to about 150 ships, including two aircraft carriers, and China holding around 800 in its naval fleet, the two are more likely than not to run into each other, naval officials and experts say.

David Brewster, a strategic affairs visiting fellow at the Australian National University, said India will do everything it can to recover its dominant position in the Indian Ocean.

It may seek naval cooperation with Japan and Australia, and expand a military base on the Andaman Islands which lie about 140 km (87 miles) from the Malacca Straits, he said.

"India sees the presence of any Chinese naval vessel as an intrusion. There is a big ramp-up in their presence, which is clearly intended to send a message to India," said Brewster.

India has engaged in intense diplomacy with Sri Lanka about the Chinese submarine presence, reminding it that New Delhi must be informed of such port calls under a maritime pact they signed this year along with the Maldives.

India has also muscled into an $8 billion deep water port that Bangladesh wants to develop in Sonadia in the Bay of Bengal, with the Adani Group submitting a proposal in October. China Harbour Engineering Company, an early bidder, was the front-runner.

"If China continues down this path and continues with this level of presence in the Indian Ocean then the Indians will feel they need to respond," said Brewster.

(Additional reporting by Megha Rajagopalan in BEIJING, Ruma Paul in DHAKA and Tim Kelly in TOKYO; Editing by John Chalmers and Raju Gopalakrishnan)

[chackojoseph]

Guy's.

Food = Good. I enjoyed it.

CIWS. CIC WNC says that they have taken the measurements etc. Then another source said that Kasthan is old technology and hence not in Vik. CIWS from Israel, Russia etc are being evaluated.

All MiG-29K pilots are sent to US for basic courses. They get a lot of flying hours including 10 landings on US Carriers.

Lightening pod begins integration. But it depends on Russian Mission Computer.

EW suite is ELTA suppression pod. Then they have Tarang Mk 1b. M2 to be installed after being proved.

Sorties number in war time is same as given. However, they feel that not more than 8 aircraft's will be required to be in air.

Shore Based STOBAR is on with construction. However, the landings with arrester bar is already in operation. NLCA has performed arrester trials with success. NLCA is too pre mature to be talked about.

[srai]

^^^

Thanks.

Interesting that the pilots are still being sent to the US for initial training. I would think that the 8 NLCA Mk.1 on order would be eventually used in similar manner as the T-45 Goshawk for carrier landings/take-offs (STOBAR for IN) since the 17 IN Hawk AJTs aren't capable of this. In fact, another 12 NLCA Mk.1 (after IOC/FOC) should be ordered for this type of training.

[sankum]

According to reports total 18 NLCA mk1 are planned. Thus 10 more will be ordered after initial 8.

[sankum]

NLCA MK1 will be used as LIFT for STOBAR operations as from carrier it will have very limited weapon payload capacity of roughly 2100 Kg which will be minimum 3500kg in case of NLCA mk2.

[PratikDas]

Anantha Krishnan M ‏@writetake

#NavyDay Latest photo of Indian Navy's super star #INSVikramaditya from Mumbai. Photo: IN

[chackojoseph]

Anantha Krishnan M ‏@writetake

#NavyDay Latest photo of Indian Navy's super star #INSVikramaditya from Mumbai. Photo: IN

Hahahahaha! On left, near MiG-29k, a single guy facing the camera, white shirt, with a bag, is me.

[sankum]

white shit or shirt ha ha ha

please don't mind I got surprised

[shravanp]

Can outside visitors be allowed ? I am visiting Mumbai for two weeks, and would love to get a glimpse of this beautiful ship.

[member_24684]

Guy's.

CIWS. CIC WNC says that they have taken the measurements etc. Then another source said that Kasthan is old technology and hence not in Vik. CIWS from Israel, Russia etc are being evaluated.

Sir Isn't the Navy Looking American Phalnx Systems

The Indian Navy has opened a competition to acquire 25 new 25-30mm close in weapon systems (CIWS) for its new warships, including the INS Vikramaditya.

system that includes a surveillance-cum-tracking radar, electro optical (EO) system, integrated surface to air (SAM) system and a 20-30 mm caliber gun with an integrated gun control system

and Good to hear our Pilots Training in US

[chackojoseph]

white shit or shirt ha ha ha

please don't mind I got surprised

hahahaha,.. fast typing issue.

skekatpuray, she is leaving today after beating retreat at Gate Way. Even us journos, it had been a long requested thing.

SajeevJino, most probably it will be Israeli stuff. But, they are unwilling to commit as its under negotiation.