Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Dec 2013 09:22

France Offers 2 Quick Scorpenes, DCNS 'Worried' About DRDO's AIP

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 01 Dec 2013 09:32

suddenly France worried on DRDO AIP delivery eh and wants MESMA 2nd gen AIP fitted eh? After all these France is concerned that about the only 2 DRDO AIP Subs not ready and not about delays to the first 4 subs.

Seems to me that DRDO AIP is near maturity and DCNS does not like it.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Dec 2013 09:47

Austin wrote:France Offers 2 Quick Scorpenes, DCNS 'Worried' About DRDO's AIP

Not again!!!

DRDO officials contest this, and insist that the programme is on track and will meet timelines.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Dec 2013 10:04

They're also worried about Russian supplies for more Kilos,much cheaper.Officially negotiations are on to further extend the life of our old Kilos by further upgrades.The contours of the deal for the second Akula are not in the public domain.It is hinted that some key tech aboard the latest Russian attack sub the Yasen (one feature most probably the universal VLS silo which can fire a variety of missiles) will be incorporated in the second Ajula.The Scorpene is still an unknown quantity in the Indian context.The French in fact should've offered this a couple of years ago when the Scorpene project was in serious trouble.as Indian sub manufacture matures,with more N-subs in the pipeline and the indigenous AIP system on the anvil,French influence on the IN's sub ambitions will diminsh by the day.Moreover,cutting edge Russsian weaponry like BMos,etc.,which gives the IN its qualitative edge over other navies, cannot be accommodated on French subs.

kit · Post by **kit** » 01 Dec 2013 15:30

maybe Thales has 'inside' knowledge of how the DRDO AIP is progressing !

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 01 Dec 2013 20:29

India to meet Japan again over plans for amphibious aircraft

India’s ambitious mission to have an amphibious aircraft in its navy is likely to move a step forward when an Indo-Japan Joint Working Group (JWG) meets later this month to decide on the modalities of its induction. The options to be discussed include outright purchase of the aircraft, joint manufacturing or a combination of both.
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Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Dec 2013 21:54

The race for AIP supremacy.Russia too has thrown its hat into the ring for the second line of subs ,with this report.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indi ... -deal.html

Russian designers said the system will be ready by 2016 and may even be fitted on Russian vessels by 2018. "The AIP is no longer a stumbling block to our participation in the P 75I," Andrey Baranov, deputy director general of the Rubin Design Bureau, said. "We will have a prototype of the system ready and in place by 2016."

Russia has offered to help the DRDO develop an indigenous version of the AIP, Baranov said and stressed that India was unlikely to find other partners who would share such critical technology.

"The main difference between our system and others in the world is that we do not store hydrogen onboard but generate it. We also use standard diesel that the submarine has," Rubin Design Bureau chief designer Igor Molchanov said. This, he said, makes the Russian AIP stealthier than the French and frees it of the need for shore-based hydrogen generating facilities which are required by the German system.

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 01 Dec 2013 23:08

Philip wrote:The race for AIP supremacy.Russia too has thrown its hat into the ring for the second line of subs ,with this report.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indi ... -deal.html

Russian designers said the system will be ready by 2016 and may even be fitted on Russian vessels by 2018. "The AIP is no longer a stumbling block to our participation in the P 75I," Andrey Baranov, deputy director general of the Rubin Design Bureau, said. "We will have a prototype of the system ready and in place by 2016."

Russia has offered to help the DRDO develop an indigenous version of the AIP, Baranov said and stressed that India was unlikely to find other partners who would share such critical technology.

"The main difference between our system and others in the world is that we do not store hydrogen onboard but generate it. We also use standard diesel that the submarine has," Rubin Design Bureau chief designer Igor Molchanov said. This, he said, makes the Russian AIP stealthier than the French and frees it of the need for shore-based hydrogen generating facilities which are required by the German system.

The Russian system is unproven, we shouldn't pick their hat. I believe they are simply repeating the same words that has been floating around about the Indian concerns and requirements.

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 01 Dec 2013 23:19

Aditya_V wrote:suddenly France worried on DRDO AIP delivery eh and wants MESMA 2nd gen AIP fitted eh? After all these France is concerned that about the only 2 DRDO AIP Subs not ready and not about delays to the first 4 subs.

Seems to me that DRDO AIP is near maturity and DCNS does not like it.

I don't believe that the DRDO AIP is near fruition. The last two submarines slated to be delivered post 2020 which is atleast 7 years down the line and if the french are offering their AIP at this time; It only means that DRDO has developed cold sweat.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 02 Dec 2013 15:56

no, they have not dragged feat. If you read the report, Drdo has contested and claimed that they are on track on development of AIP.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 03 Dec 2013 06:25

Well, its DRDO and Navy JV. Not DRDO alone. Secondly, In April 2013 Indian Navy LPD to feature electric propulsion, upbeat on DRDO Fuel Cell AIP, Naval brass was happy with progress.

DCNS must be worried about its own schedule.

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 03 Dec 2013 08:26

nrshah wrote:no, they have not dragged feat. If you read the report, Drdo has contested and claimed that they are on track on development of AIP.

That's right - they've claimed that they are on track. But delivery is not due until 7 years. So do they have a working prototype; full scale not lab scale. or is it still on paper.

wig · Post by **wig** » 03 Dec 2013 09:09

Indian Navy concerned over Bangladesh's decision to buy two submarines from China
excerpts

there are also indications that Chinese submarines have been sneaking into Indian territorial waters in the Bay of Bengal undetected. These developments have led to the Eastern Naval Command seeking more presence in the Bay of Bengal region.

At the moment, India isn't really prepared for any conflict in the Bay of Bengal region near West Bengal due to the lack of adequate infrastructure," a senior Navy officer said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 750741.cms

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Dec 2013 09:22

Just what we needed. A weaker than expected Eastern flank.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Dec 2013 09:56

Whoever wants to bag the second line order will have to prove with a working model the case for their system Russia included. However,the DRDO system will first have to be proven on a trials sub and while it may be "upbeat",definite deadlines need to be met if it is to be selected by the IN for the second line.MESMA vs fuell cells and the Stirling engine.Right now the German fuel cell tech has an edge but requires

Here is a good paper on the systems available today (not including the new Russian system) :

http://media.bmt.org/bmt_media/resource ... nities.pdf

Paper on Submarine Power and Propulsion Presented at Pacific 2008 in Sydney, Australia.
January 2008 Page 1 of 11 © BMT Defence Services Ltd
Submarine Power and Propulsion
- Trends and Opportunities

Here is a detailed explanation of the Kristall Russian AIP system.
http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/kr ... 50360.html

Good overview of latest sub tech trends,covering AIP systems,sonars,scopes,combat systems and weaponry.
http://www.armada.ch/submarine-technology-review/

Xcpt.Russia was an early proponent of air-independent propulsion design, but in the last decade Western European nations took the lead. In late 2011, however, the Rubin design bureau unveiled an electrochemical generator plant based on the earlier Kristall-27E solution, which employs fuel cells and the reforming of diesel fuel for hydrogen production by means of an electro-mechanical generator. Reported to be available for production in less than three years’ time, it is being offered to India via the Amur 1650 project.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 03 Dec 2013 12:59

Philip wrote:Whoever wants to bag the second line order will have to prove with a working model the case for their system Russia included. However,the DRDO system will first have to be proven on a trials sub and while it may be "upbeat",definite deadlines need to be met if it is to be selected by the IN for the second line.MESMA vs fuell cells and the Stirling engine.Right now the German fuel cell tech has an edge but requires

Here is a good paper on the systems available today (not including the new Russian system) :

http://media.bmt.org/bmt_media/resource ... nities.pdf

Paper on Submarine Power and Propulsion Presented at Pacific 2008 in Sydney, Australia.
January 2008 Page 1 of 11 © BMT Defence Services Ltd
Submarine Power and Propulsion
- Trends and Opportunities

Here is a detailed explanation of the Kristall Russian AIP system.
http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/kr ... 50360.html

Good overview of latest sub tech trends,covering AIP systems,sonars,scopes,combat systems and weaponry.
http://www.armada.ch/submarine-technology-review/

Xcpt.Russia was an early proponent of air-independent propulsion design, but in the last decade Western European nations took the lead. In late 2011, however, the Rubin design bureau unveiled an electrochemical generator plant based on the earlier Kristall-27E solution, which employs fuel cells and the reforming of diesel fuel for hydrogen production by means of an electro-mechanical generator. Reported to be available for production in less than three years’ time, it is being offered to India via the Amur 1650 project.

Will the Russian AIP system become another Vikramaditya ? Probably YES

France herself does not have any AIP subs. MESMA is on 2/3 PN subs

Swedish Striling system and German fuel cells have been in use for 10 - 15 years.

WHAT SHOULD BE OUR CHOICE ?

Sponsor / subsidize Russian AIP ? So that they change the name colour and packing and sell it to China ?

My choice is German subs with German AIP.

K

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 03 Dec 2013 13:27

http://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.c ... s-216.html

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 03 Dec 2013 15:12

Nah, Stick to the DRDO solution, with budget cuts, the last thing we need is more money being thrown into things which we are currently progressing in. For P-75I, I would rather we mass order the the Arihant Class with AIP propulsion. If Arihants's design proves to be effective during sea-trials, there is no reason why we cannot quickly redesign the interior to adopt the DRDO AIP solution. Actually ATV should be mass produced, I say we need to order 30-40 of these in a mix of both Nuke and AIP propulsion just to gain experience in manufacturing Subs at good pace.

ATV's 4 Missile Silos can carry 12 Sagarika missiles, each missile silo is big enough to have atleast 4+ Brahmos/ Nirbhay, so in pure conventional Land attack role, it should be able to deploy upto 16+ missiles.

I don't see any reason not to have ATV mass produced with gradual inncrements in blocks.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 03 Dec 2013 15:25

^Isn't it too big for a conventional sub?

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 03 Dec 2013 17:25

Septimus P. wrote: I say we need to order 30-40 of these in a mix of both Nuke and AIP propulsion just to gain experience in manufacturing Subs at good pace.

what have you been smoking mate!

We do have the capabilities to produce this - hull and systems. (Proven with the Arihant). But a DE or AIP sub is going to be different from the Arihant in size, capabilities, etc.

However, i like the way you think!

mraghu · Post by **mraghu** » 03 Dec 2013 18:18

The Mig 29K Pilot KHV Singh talks about the plane : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhN7_L3R6uU

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Dec 2013 18:22

The three areas where the MiG-29K truly lags behind its contemporaries like the Rafale, F/A-18E/F are sensor fusion (a fundamental issue as it adds to pilot workload), AESA radar (second in priority as Zhuk ME has a good range) and its A2A weapons need to be upgraded (can be addressed and third in priority).

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 03 Dec 2013 18:26

Indian Navy to set up more facilities at Kakinada port.

The Indian Navy is planning to set up more facilities at Kakinada port to safeguard the country’s maritime interests, according to Vice-Admiral Anil Chopra, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command.

He told reporters here on board stealth frigate INS Sahyadri on Tuesday that a base would be set up at Kakinada, deploying some high speed boats to protect the offshore assets and strengthen the defence capabilities in the region.

He said the Navy would be establishing a jetty at Kakinada port along with the Coast Guard for their operations. It is also establishing its amphibious warfare training school at Kakinada.

As part of strengthening the operations on the east coast, the Navy would establish naval air enclaves at Tuticorin, Bhubaneswar and Behala in Kolkata. It is already operating an air station in Meenambakkam.

The Navy is in the process of acquiring land and developing it at a number of places in the State. The Eastern Naval Command is looking at developing an airstrip near Bobilli in Vizianagaram district that was used during the Second World War as an alternative landing station to INS Dega.

The indigenously built nuclear submarine INS Arihant has successfully completed its harbour acceptance trials and would be soon be embarking on sea acceptance trials. Once commissioned, INS Arihant along with INS Chakra would be a force multiplier and help the Indian Navy become a true blue sea navy, he said.

He said: “It is a matter of great pride that all the new ships that are being commissioned are indigenously built.’’ Three more Shivalik class stealth frigates would be joining service soon.

He said the proposal to purchase four landing platform docks from Hindustan Shipyard Ltd here awaits the Government approval, and it may come soon.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Dec 2013 18:35

Floating armouries can lead to 26/11 type attacks: Navy Chief

Unregulated floating private armouries carrying combatants of certain countries are a matter of concern and can have serious security implications for the country including infiltration of terrorists that can lead to 26/11-type attacks, Navy Chief Admiral DK Joshi warned today.

Addressing the annual Navy Day press conference, he also sought a "reversal" of high risk areas for merchant ships plying in the piracy prone zones, saying such an extension in these zones has resulted in incidents such as the killing of four Indian fishermen by Italian marines near Kerala coast.

"Floating armoury is a matter of very serious concern. This is entirely unregulated... This has very serious security implications for us including the infiltration of terrorists.

"...If there are unregulated arms and ammunition on a vessel, the existence of weapons is not known as also where guards are transferring them and this could lead to such a situation on anybody's soil," Joshi said when asked if unregulated floating armouries can lead to a 26/11 attack.

The Navy Chief was talking on the issue against the backdrop of seizure of the American floating armoury MV Seaman Guard Ohio off the coast of Tuticorin in Tamil Nadu.

He said the Government has also received reports about the presence of "combatants from some countries who on a temporary basis take up these employments and become private armed guards."

Asked if he meant that these combatants are from Pakistan, Joshi skirted a direct response, saying, "I am referring to what I am referring to."

He said over the years, these armouries providing escort to the merchant vessels plying in piracy prone areas have become a "loose-knit structure" and the "unregulated manner these ships are operating, there is no track of which ship is coming and what guards it has, what arms does it have and where they are going."

He said like the merchant vessels operating under the International Maritime Organisation (IMO) framework, these floating armouries have to be brought under the regulation and all the littoral states must be aware of the identity of such ships, the number of weapons and guards present on them.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 03 Dec 2013 21:54

Whats the latest on the Enrica Lexie case?

John · Post by **John** » 03 Dec 2013 22:08

Septimus P. wrote:Nah, Stick to the DRDO solution, with budget cuts, the last thing we need is more money being thrown into things which we are currently progressing in. For P-75I, I would rather we mass order the the Arihant Class with AIP propulsion. If Arihants's design proves to be effective during sea-trials, there is no reason why we cannot quickly redesign the interior to adopt the DRDO AIP solution. Actually ATV should be mass produced, I say we need to order 30-40 of these in a mix of both Nuke and AIP propulsion just to gain experience in manufacturing Subs at good pace.

ATV's 4 Missile Silos can carry 12 Sagarika missiles, each missile silo is big enough to have atleast 4+ Brahmos/ Nirbhay, so in pure conventional Land attack role, it should be able to deploy upto 16+ missiles.

I don't see any reason not to have ATV mass produced with gradual inncrements in blocks.

Its far too large to be converted to a diesel submarine since the increased battery size will take up significant portion of the submarine. AIP is not a magical system that converts all conventional subs into cheap SSNs it still has long away go and at most allows the sub to travel at 6 knots for couple more days. So Arihant SSK variant would essentially cost as much SSN/SSBN variant and will have 1/2 top speed, far less payload, can barely travel 6 knots submerged for couple days vs 20+ knots till supplies run out for nuclear variant.

So it makes no sense to go for conventional variant. In fact only time it makes sense to purchase SSK is if we can cheaply mass produce them at 1/4th cost of SSNs which is not happening with P-75...

Karan M wrote:The three areas where the MiG-29K truly lags behind its contemporaries like the Rafale, F/A-18E/F are sensor fusion (a fundamental issue as it adds to pilot workload), AESA radar (second in priority as Zhuk ME has a good range) and its A2A weapons need to be upgraded (can be addressed and third in priority).

Yes but keep in mind Mig-29K in interdiction role will be operating with radar coverage provided by the carrier. Also it is moot point since both aircraft capabilities will be severely compromised when operating from a carrier with Ski Jump.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 03 Dec 2013 23:30

India, Japan officials' meet on amphibious aircraft on Dec 23

The options to be discussed include outright purchase of the aircraft or joint manufacturing or a combination of both.

Wonder how many we are looking to buy? We certainly need seaplanes to improve patrolling of the many small Lakshadweep and Andaman Nicobar islands, even in riverine areas of Assam and Bengal. There could easily be some anti-national and criminal activities going on in these areas simply because they are relatively inaccessible right now. But not all of these seaplanes need to be the huge US-2 type. Smaller, cheaper seaplanes like the Dornier Seastar would complement the bigger long-range ones as they are also a good fit for civil use and would be used in greater numbers.

This would be a historic purchase as it would be the first Japanese military export since WW2. That in itself sends a pretty clear message. Let's hope our babus stop scratching their butts and get moving on it without letting co-manufacture chai-pani hold things up as usual. That will only allow some paki to allege "corruption" and get ShinMaywa blacklisted.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Dec 2013 02:30

Meanwhile pathetic news:

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/defence-mini ... 3-237.html

Has picture of AKA on the deck!!!!

They couldnt find the funds to make the Vik a museum.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Dec 2013 02:48

perhaps other state govs should offer to convert it to museum. why is that not considered?

we need to put that decision on hold..

meanwhile on the japanese deal: shinmaywa ->

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Dec 2013 02:57

Absolutely! AKA should instead berth the Vikrant in Cochin at Marine Drive and turn it into a Museum-cum-entertainment centre at least.The owner of the massive Lulu mall could be roped in to fund the enterprise.At Cochin the Vikrant could be put to much profitable use.In fact this is one area where the MOD/IN should approach the public/corporate houses for help.This would never had happened in the UK.The way in which the Royal yacht Britannia has been converted into a most popular museum in Leith,Edinburgh,attached to a quayside shopping mall,is simply fabulous.The Royal Yacht is also available for corporate ,meetings and banquets and its kitchen makes melt-in-your-mouth fudge! Just imagine a huge food court on the Vikrant's deck under tents and a great outdoor bar.The Keralites who consume the max. amount of booze in the country will turn it into a roaring success!

Shall we all write to AKA to zimply save the day?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 04 Dec 2013 05:08

They are going to give Vikrant to the highest bidder based on scrap value. At least the cheapskate congi govt can offer it free as an incentive to any party that agrees to convert it into a museum. But that needs a sense of pride in the Vikrant's history and besides, the ship may also be a source of takleef to certain sections of voters for exactly the same history.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 04 Dec 2013 05:21

We should start a online petition addressed to Indian Navy, MOD and All Chief Ministers of the Coastal States for Saving Vikrant

"Save INS Vikrant (R11)"

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Dec 2013 05:32

First start a SM campaign

#SaveINSVikrant(R11)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Dec 2013 14:40

Commodore Suraj Berry's finest hour

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Dec 2013 15:09

Kakarat wrote:We should start a online petition addressed to Indian Navy, MOD and All Chief Ministers of the Coastal States for Saving Vikrant

"Save INS Vikrant (R11)"

please do.

change.org has a decent template for online petitions.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 04 Dec 2013 18:07

Flash News in local news,There was a fire accident in Vishakapatnam Naval dockyard involving INS KONKAN

titash · Post by **titash** » 04 Dec 2013 18:52

*** Cross posting from the military pics thread ***

Great find Amitabh!!!

Looks like a 76 mm gun...I thought I saw a news report that the IN was transitioning to a 127 mm gun license manufactured at BHEL for future warships

Can't see the torpedo tubes either - perhaps we moved to internal LWT instead of that big ass HWT amidships

The bridge seems to be 2 levels...I can see 2 rows of windows...very unusual for warships. Perhaps the radar mast penetrates through the bridge and reduces space, necessitating 2 floors

Most importantly, the NCW enabling SATCOM radome is in place

Amitabh wrote:Kolkata class destroyer at sea

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 04 Dec 2013 19:16

Happy Navy Day!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Dec 2013 21:23

All 45 naval vessels under construction are being made in India
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013/12/a ... ction.html

Highlighting the navy’s commitment to indigenous defence production, the navy chief pointed out that all 45 ships and submarines being constructed for the navy are being built in Indian shipyards.

Describing indigenization efforts, Admiral Joshi said that indigenization was 100 per cent in the “float category” of construction (i.e. warship hulls).

In the “move category” (engine, transmission, generators, air conditioning), indigenization was “close to 50 per cent”.

However, in the “fight category” (weapons, sensors, radars, sonars) the navy has “a long way to go.”

Pointing out that this indigenization has been achieved in 60-70 years, starting from virtually a zero industrial base, the navy chief said “we have much to be proud about.”

He said, “We are in dialogue with private industry, DRDO… a lot of money has to be invested in R&D for developing world class systems at competitive prices.”

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Dec 2013 21:52

First Navy Day with Vikramaditya in commission