Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 29 May 2014 12:27

055 is a fanboy project till date.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 30 May 2014 06:48

There is no Q though that PLAN warship and sub designs have been steadily improving in concept,quality and quantity built in double-quick time.This is alarming Indo-Asia-Pacific navies who are also on a spree of upgrades and new acquisitons,esp. subs.

The IN too must come out with some innovative designs that can be built at speed.The time taken to build our DDGs and FFGs is just too long.We appear to be still buying some component of the fleet from abroad,even if it is only aux. vessels.

The IN needs a lot more LRMP/ASW aircraft,both "low and slow" IL-38SDs,additional P-8s,plus keeping at least 4-6 of the Bears operational if their airframe life allows it,as these birds have unmatched range and endurance,capable of carrying standoff ASMs like BMos,Nirbhay,etc. Add to this at least 8 amphibs 12-16 med. MRP aircraft,and the IN will have a decent assortment of ASW/MRP aircraft to sanitise both the IOR and even operate from any Viet airstrips for Indo-China Sea ops. The upgrading of the IN's naval air station in the Nicobar islands to allow Flanker/Fulcrum type of aircraft to be based/operate from there would relieve the IAF of some of the task of maritime air ops.Extra landbased MIG-29Ks wouldn't be amiss,as they would serve as useful extra aircraft available for the carriers.

The sub requirement has been debated in great detail.Not just an interim buy asap of conventional boats,but a decision to build a parallel line of SSGNs and acquire at least 2 extra Akulas would help plug the massive gap that exists in the IN's sub capability as of now.One report says that only around 4 subs are operational at any given time.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 30 May 2014 07:52

PLAN/Soko/Japan build times for large DDG/FFG hulls are half of ours.

that cannot be denied.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srin » 30 May 2014 12:14

Singha wrote:PLAN/Soko/Japan build times for large DDG/FFG hulls are half of ours.

that cannot be denied.


True, but that is a known fact so the longer lead times can be factored in. So, if the navy wants it, it can workaround those issues. It can always place concurrent orders with two shipyards instead of just one. So instead of a 10-year wait for Kolkata class and another long wait for Bangalore class (after all the kolkata class have been commissioned), it would be worthwhile to have two shipyards deliver the kolkata class.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 30 May 2014 13:11

Total privatization with strict timelines and heavy penal clauses is the only option. DPSU shipyards have filed and while some of the current lot of private players like Bharati are total useless fellows other like L&T are good. Privatization will bring in people like Mahendras, TATAs and others into the area and overall quality and timelines will improve. First sell of all Shipbuilder PSUs immediately.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 30 May 2014 13:30

Meet new boss day:
Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 31 May 2014 15:47

The speed and low cost of the 6 Kilos being built for Vietnam by Russia is noteworthy.With the IN losing two Kilos,one that exploded after a fire and the other that was dismantled at Vizag by HSL and ended up a write off,infuriating the IN,offer an affordable and speedy answer in he interim to our sub fleet crisis.Acquiring 2-3 new Kilos of the latest version would fill the gap in our fleet of 10 Kilos,the entire lot if poss. being planned for upgrades to extend the life of the Kilo fleet. At around just $300m+ per boat as against $500m+ for a non-AIP Scorpene,which also does not carry the equivalent of the multi-variant and versatile Klub missile with its Mach 3 terminal homing warhead. Perhaps these Kilos could also be fitted with an AIP system to enhance their capability. The pros and cons between an advanced expensive conventional AIP sub as envisaged by the IN vs an SSGN built at home could be examined. There is no Q that a desi SSGN ,a modification of the ATV class would be far
more effective in dealing with PLAN subs than any conventional sub,even with AIP which would have just half the endurance (45 days against 90+),half the weaponry carried and as far as range is concerned,an N-sub has virtually unlimited range thanks to its N-plant.

http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/v7/wn ... id=1042477
Russia Building 6th Submarine For Vietnamese Navy
ST PETERSBURG, May 29 (Bernama) -- Russia has launched the construction of the sixth diesel-electric submarine of Project 636 for Vietnam at the Admiraleiskiye Verfi shipyard in St Petersburg, reports Russia's Itar-Tass news agency.

The US$2 billion contract for the supply of six submarines to Vietnam was signed in 2009 with deliveries due to be completed in 2016, a Russian defence sector source told Itar-Tass on Wednesday.

Multi-role diesel-electric submarines, designed by the St Petersburg-based Rubin Design Bureau, boast one of the lowest noise signatures in the world, with submerged speed at 20 knots and a diving depth of 240 meters.

Vietnam has already inducted two such submarines into service. The third will sail out to sea for training Vietnamese sailors in June. It is due to be shipped to the customer by the end of the year. The fourth submarine was launched in March with sea trials scheduled for June.

The fifth submarine is under construction.

Vietnam's defence spending is US$1.5 billion/1.8 per cent of the Gross Domestic Product/a year. The government does not rule out that it might increase if the national economy begins to grow at a faster rate.

Russia is a long-standing Vietnamese partner in military cooperation. The two countries have signed more than US$4.5 billion worth of contracts for supply of newest Russian armaments to Vietnam in the recent years.

Aside from submarines, Vietnam buys Russian Su-30MK2 fighters, frigates and missile boats.
-- BERNAMA

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 01 Jun 2014 06:05

(V Adm) RK Pattanaik takes over as Indian Navy's deputy chief
http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/rk ... 36363.html

New Delhi: Vice Admiral RK Pattanaik Saturday took over as the deputy chief of the Indian Navy from Vice Admiral PK Chatterjee who has been appointed as commander-in-chief of the Andaman and Nicobar Command, an official release said.

Commissioned into the Indian Navy Jan 1, 1978, Pattanaik is an an alumnus of the National Defence Academy. A specialist in gunnery and missile warfare, he is a graduate of Defence Services Staff College, Wellington; Army War College, Mhow and National Defence College, New Delhi.

Prior to his elevation to the flag rank, he has commanded several vessels including an anti-submarine warfare corvette, two frigates and two destroyers.

Besides he has also served as the command gunnery officer and as an instructor at the DSSC.

Pattanaik was presently deputy chief of integrated defence staff (doctrine, organisation and training) at the IDS headquarters.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 01 Jun 2014 06:21

more details here

Shuffle in navy, vice-chief named
OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT

New Delhi, May 31: The top brass of the Indian Navy has been reconstituted with the government today approving fresh appointments in the wake of the resignations of the navy chief, Admiral D.K. Joshi, and the western commander, Vice-Admiral Shekhar Sinha.

While Admiral Robin Dhowan was confirmed as the navy chief by the UPA government, the vice-chief’s post was vacant.

Vice-Admiral Sunil Lamba was appointed as vice-chief of the naval staff today. He was commandant of the National Defence College. Lamba is likely to be the next chief of naval staff in 2016 after Dhowan retires. Before that he may be transferred as commander-in-chief of one of the operational commands.

Vice-Admiral Anil Chopra, who was the eastern naval chief, has now been asked to take over as the commander-in-chief of the western command. Vice-Admiral Satish Soni, who was the southern naval chief, has been transferred as chief of the eastern command.

The southern command is essentially a training command while the Vizag-headquartered eastern and Mumbai-headquartered western are operational commands.

Vice-Admiral S.P.S. Cheema has been appointed as the commander-in-chief, south deputy chief of naval staff, Vice-Admiral Pradeep Chatterjee has been transferred as the commander-in-chief of the Andaman and Nicobar command. Vice-Admiral R.K. Pattanaik has been appointed the new deputy chief of naval staff and Vice-Admiral Luthra is the new deputy chief of the integrated defence staff (operations).

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 01 Jun 2014 06:30

sum wrote:Meet new boss day:
Image


Dhowan's body language in this photo is not good. Modi is looking at him and he is looking at the photographer. Modi is leaning out, Dhowan is straight up if anything leaning away.

Expressions :)

Give him a year.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 01 Jun 2014 06:36

srin wrote:

True, but that is a known fact so the longer lead times can be factored in. So, if the navy wants it, it can workaround those issues. It can always place concurrent orders with two shipyards instead of just one. So instead of a 10-year wait for Kolkata class and another long wait for Bangalore class (after all the kolkata class have been commissioned), it would be worthwhile to have two shipyards deliver the kolkata class.


Only if the new Mod structure works. Let's see if they can get all parts (electronics and armament) to keep pace. Else you have great DDGs and no SAMs as in Barak-8.

Hope Modi and co can overcome the history. Not so optimistic on project management

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 01 Jun 2014 08:06

Plugging the gaps in the DPSU's tightening screws,throwing out rusty weather-beaten parts,will all take some time.The reports today say that 3 key DRDO officisls/scientists have been given 1-2 yr. extensions so that their projects do not suffer.That quick decisions are being taken is a great signal to the nation.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Jun 2014 11:35

Its smart move to tie them to the entire service period. The contract is expected in August and the pilots are now preparing for night operations.

India - Russia to sign post warranty service contract for aircraft Carrier INS Vikramaditya

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 03 Jun 2014 12:02

Cosmo_R wrote:
sum wrote:Meet new boss day:
Image


Dhowan's body language in this photo is not good. Modi is looking at him and he is looking at the photographer. Modi is leaning out, Dhowan is straight up if anything leaning away.

Expressions :)

Give him a year.


even a hundred will not do.

ever the showman!!

selling the sizzle and never the steak.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 04 Jun 2014 06:49

The lifetime warranty agreement for the Vik-A is an excellent proposal and should be emulated in other major deals as well,from both east and west. In fact foreign manufacturers would benefit from setting up support services in similar fashion.It also answers Qs from those critical of Indo-Russian deals on the issue of after sales support.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shiv » 04 Jun 2014 06:59

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 079477.ece
Earlier this year, India’s first indigenously built nuclear submarine quietly pushed out of its base for sea trials, its 6,000-tonne, 111-metre bulk powered by an 83-megawatt uranium reactor. The submarine is capable of lurking effectively undetectable at depth almost indefinitely, as long as there is food for its 110-man crew. In early 2015, if all goes well, INS Arihant will get the nuclear missiles it is designed to carry.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 04 Jun 2014 15:18


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby merlin » 04 Jun 2014 17:59



IN procurement plans also delayed. P15A delayed. P15B will come in sooooooooooo late. P17As not even tendered for. Kamorta class only 4. IAC-1 delayed. No sign of minesweepers. No sign of LPDs/LPHs.

My chotu sa dream was 10 destroyers, 20 frigates, 30 corvettes but we now have 8 (5 Kashin + 3 Delhi) + 9 (+ 3 Brahmaputras, I think) + ?

10 ****** wasted years with no movement on conventional subs (more orders beyond 6 Scorpenes, forget the second line), no movement on P17A, minesweepers, amphibs.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 05 Jun 2014 16:35


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 05 Jun 2014 16:54

we had one lost decade in 90's due to bofors aftermath and then yet another one after breathing space of 5 years.
would take a long time to recover.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 06 Jun 2014 08:51

do we which helos are these MRH and NUH?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kapil » 06 Jun 2014 11:45

Well, the IN will never have a better leadership team in place.
Half of the admirals including the CNS have commanded the Delhi class (Adms Dhowan,Soni,Lamba,Pattnaik- the first 2 Delhi and the latter 2 Mumbai) Adm Soni is in fact commissioning CO INS Talwar
Adms Chopra, Cheema and Luthra have been Carrier Captains ie commanded Viraat with Adm Cheema also having commissioned INS Trishul as her first CO.
Adm Chatterjee is the Grey Dolphin-seniormost submariner in service.
All have been superb fleet commanders as well.

All are extremely articulate, have gone through US/UK sanctions while they were Commander COs

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 06 Jun 2014 11:55

thanks for the info Kaps.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 06 Jun 2014 16:39

To augment the IN's fleet strength,as domestic ship/sub building is way behind schedule,we will have to seek some warships,etc. from abroad.Fleet auxiliaries are being built in Italy,the minesweepers,of Korean origin can all be built rapidly in SoKo.More follow on Talwars/new frigates can be built in Russia,while the P-28s,Delhi/Kol follow-ons be built at MDL,GR,GSL,etc. Pvt. yards can also be roped in to build OPVs,missile craft,corvettes,frigates,etc.N-subs SSBNs and SSGNs built at home with a few more Akulas from Russia,new conventional subs also at pvt. yards.Where will the 5 amphibs be also built? Big Qs that need to be answered.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Ajit.C » 06 Jun 2014 18:36

Kapil wrote:Well, the IN will never have a better leadership team in place.
Half of the admirals including the CNS have commanded the Delhi class (Adms Dhowan,Soni,Lamba,Pattnaik- the first 2 Delhi and the latter 2 Mumbai) Adm Soni is in fact commissioning CO INS Talwar Adms Chopra, Cheema and Luthra have been Carrier Captains ie commanded Viraat with Adm Cheema also having commissioned INS Trishul as her first CO. Adm Chatterjee is the Grey Dolphin-seniormost submariner in service. All have been superb fleet commanders as well.

All are extremely articulate, have gone through US/UK sanctions while they were Commander COs


Sometime back the CNS and CiC's had commanded the either Viraat or Vikrant. So this is not new. Captains commanding Aircraft carriers, Delhi class, Talwar Class are the one's now who make it to RA and above. There is a lot of lobbying for this commands and you require support for that. if you want to know who are the next RA's++ in coming future look you just have to look have the captains of AC, delhi Class, etc. R class, G Class are all for those who will not probably make it, even though the work done by these ships are the same.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby narmad » 06 Jun 2014 20:35

Submarine Salvaged

SINDHURAKSHAK SALVAGE SEQUENCE:
1. Two salvage barges approach the sunken submarine.
2. Chain pullers loop around the hull of the Sindhurakshak.
3. Submarine lifted above water by salvage barge.
4. Submarine lowered onto special submersible barge.
5. Submarine sits on barge.
6. Barge is then floated. It lifts the submarine.
7. Submarine brought to surface.

The navy awarded the contract to salvage the submarine to Resolve Marine Group, the Indian subsidiary of an American firm, for Rs.240 crore. The salvage is to be completed before the onset of the south-west monsoons this month. It is unlikely the submarine will ever return to service.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 06 Jun 2014 21:29

there is no option but to invest in capacity augmentation and skills $1 billion in MD, $1b in HSL, $1b in Kochi and rest farmed to pvt shipyards if we ever want to get anywhere.

making them abroad just perpetuates the cycle. if necessary buy the design abroad but build here.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Picklu » 07 Jun 2014 02:54

I did not like the photua of NaMo with Dhowanji. More than Dhowanji's posture, I was scared of Namo's eyes.
Comparing both the photua with Rahababu and Dhowanji, looks like NaMo has marked the english speaking golfer pro.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Jun 2014 07:31

the arrester wire if it breaks, whips back like a deadly saw and can easily kill people I think, apart from equipment damage.

here is a example. the F-18 plunges into the sea, but the wire whips back, a couple of crew jump way high to escape the whiplash of the wire. the parking areas at the stern on carriers on either side landing strip are vulnerable to this issue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c0lfwxRpj0

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 07 Jun 2014 08:49

As per latest AW&ST , first test of Barak-8 LRSAM for Indian Navy will take place in Nov or Dec this year , A special naval platform is designed for the test which is likely to be a frigate , integeration with platform will be done by August and test late this year

LRSAM has a range of 70 km and ceiling of 16 km , P-15A , P-17A and new Aircraft Carrier Vikrant will have LRSAM on board. LRSAM is built around 4 Vertical Launch Unit each with 8 missile

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 07 Jun 2014 09:19

Adding to what Austin has posted,the report says that the B-8 may even be retrofitted to the Vik-A.4 cells with 8 missiles each is the general LR-SAM config. The P-15As and P-17s are earmarked for the missile as mentioned with the combat suite integrated around the El-M2248 MF-STAR radar,seen on the first of the Kol. DDGs. The interesting point is that this missile combines the need for both anti-missile/sea-skimmers and as a LR-SAM,both pt. defence and area air defence looked after by one missile.guidance both mid-course using GPS/data links,plus terminal homing,"end game dynamics". The IA and IAF are developing/building longer ranged versions in a 24-missile battery SpyDer config.From sea-skimmers to high-alt targets,the missile system is all-weather capable with multiple simultaneous engagements.

It would be very interesting to see which other Western/Russian missiles fit into the B-8 category/capabilities.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 07 Jun 2014 09:57

Philip
There is no indication that Barak-8 will be fitted on Vikramaditya it will be Barak-1 former requires extensive deck penetration and not to mention integrating with existing Fregat radar would be a nightmare.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Jun 2014 11:28

32 cells is a tad low if B8 has to take over sram/anti-missile role that typically B1/guns fill.

there has to be another 32 cell site just ahead of the helicopter hanger as seen in many ships.

our bulky separate array for the Brahmos + RBU eats up space on the foredeck else P15A could have mounted 64 B8 on there itself.

maybe we need to deprecate the brahmos on AAW ships like P15A+ and use a small 8-harpoon/uran load amidships.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 07 Jun 2014 19:44

Barak-8 will be fitted on Vikramaditya as they mentioned it and if you look at the rear side of island has space for radar and VLS can be retrofitted on extended deck , Vikramaditya was suppose to come with VLS Shtil-1 which was later overridden by Barak-8

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Jun 2014 20:46

imo why not move 8 brahmos (reduce down from 16) to between the funnel and hangar in the back? has been done in one rajput class.

that would free up the foredeck for more SAMs.
Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Jun 2014 20:52

also we seem to waste a lot of space here http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_QKkSf03VuFY/S ... C02248.JPG
vs the rather dense packing of the mk41 vls. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... adyVLS.jpg

if we move the brahmos out, I am sure 32 more are going in. even otherwise, another 16 looks feasible to put in to get from 32->48

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Ajit.C » 07 Jun 2014 23:34

Somebody ought to teach RM of what to do when taking guard of honor.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 07 Jun 2014 23:57

Austin wrote:Barak-8 will be fitted on Vikramaditya as they mentioned it and if you look at the rear side of island has space for radar and VLS can be retrofitted on extended deck , Vikramaditya was suppose to come with VLS Shtil-1 which was later overridden by Barak-8

There are lot of contradicting reports some of it is confusion with Vikrant and also while there is room for another radar it will not have 360 degree coverage, IMO it will be Barak-1 we will see.

Singha, while models show 32 Ajai Shukla said there is 64 in latest piece last month, i am not sure what Barak-8 count for P-15A will be.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Jun 2014 09:58

I think P15A has 32 barak8 cells on foredeck and 32 barak1 cells arranged on both sides of the helicopter hangar. that might explain his 64. thats the idea I got from this model..hopefully those are not lifeboats up there

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_QKkSf03VuFY/S ... C02248.JPG

btw when is she being inducted into service?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Jun 2014 14:26

I think there should be another 32 VLS Barak-8 Launcher at the rear behind helicopter hanger , Delhi has 2 Single arm launcher after all.

Barak-1 will be similar to Delhi with 16 each on port/starboard side at the center.


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