LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

vina · Post by **vina** » 17 Dec 2013 13:43

Jihaaj-e-Kuffar buzzing us ? Doing practice dances for the 20th. Air display instead of St Antony's rambling bleating?

nash · Post by **nash** » 17 Dec 2013 14:29

i also saw one near silk-board, it was flying quite low, carrying 2 A2A missile possibly r-73.

On different note if LCA can fly that low then i think it will be as effective as Rafale or jaguar in SEAD role.

member_28305 · Post by **member_28305** » 17 Dec 2013 16:09

I think the LCA can replace the Jaguar as well in the SEAD Role.
The specs are roughly comparable.

FROM WIKI:
Jaguar:
Weapons Load (approx) :3900 kg
Ferry range: 3,524 km
Thrust with afterburner: 32.5 kN (X 2)

LCA MK1:
Weapons Load (approx): 3000 Kg
Ferry range: 3,000 km (without Fuel Tanks I guess)
Thrust with afterburner: 85 kN

atleast LCA can Strike and return in high speed when compared to Jaguar
If configured, LCA could even carry a Nuclear payload in the centerline, along with 2 fuel tanks

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 17 Dec 2013 16:37

doubt about N-weapon , that needs good height i think to deliver a N-payload

member_28305 · Post by **member_28305** » 17 Dec 2013 16:55

you mean Ground clearance or the service ceiling. (LCA can go up to 50k feet).

If its the latter, what is the minimum height, a fighter/bomber should fly to drop a Nuke?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 17 Dec 2013 19:05

that could be enough, i was not sure about the max ceiling

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 17 Dec 2013 19:34

As the date comes close for the IOC, it is a good time to reflect back and see how far LCA program and the Aerospace program has come in India - with meagure beginnings and budgets, but dreaming and accomplishing big. Kudos.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Dec 2013 20:15

moral of the story is there is nothing called meagure and achieving things on thin budgets.. there is always a give up on some capabiliity or process by way of doing things correct.

we can only compare (i repeat what i said in MoM thread), similar programs - list out requirements, features, capabiilties, work done, dependencies, market etc.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 17 Dec 2013 23:18

merlin wrote:
Philip wrote:Which other BVR weapon is available for integration? Maybe the Chinese ones?

Astra !!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Dec 2013 06:04

Astra is due for production in 2015 and there are reports that carriage trials have begun. Phase 3 of those includes firing.
It will compensate for the lower range of the Derby.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Dec 2013 06:05

merlin wrote:
Philip wrote:I thought that IOC was obtained with an R-73 Russkie missile.Derby.The CAG had earlier said that the Derby failed to meet parameters in IN service.Any news of its improved performance? Or has it been acquired bcos of the Israeli radar? LCA production figures highly optimistic.Wait and watch.However with the Rafale deal in trouble the LCA success becomes even more critical with MIG 21 phasing out.More Flankers anyone?
Obviously because of the part-Israeli radar! The Russkies will charge us two arms and a leg for integrating the R-77 (that is if they don't refuse outright!).

Which other BVR weapon is available for integration? Maybe the Chinese ones?

CAG also said the IN purchased the R77 despite IAF having issues with it and that it remained unproven. But of course it is Russian, so nothing can be wrong with it per some for whom all russkie gear is above all reproach.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 18 Dec 2013 07:17

CEMILAC says certifying Tejas test parameters was a challenge | 2445 incident-free flights | 500-odd page RSD ready

Bangalore: Scientists attached to the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC) are giving the final touches to the 500-plus pages Release to Service Document (RSD) – which will be handed over to the Indian Air Force (IAF) as an assurance of the test points completed by Tejas variants ahead of its second initial operational clearance (IOC-2). Every since the first IOC-1 event held on January 10, 2011, the CEMILAC team had their task cut out to go through a series of complex certification processes to ensure the supreme safety of the aircraft.

In an interview to Express on Tuesday, Dr K Tamil Mani, Director-General (Aeronautical Systems), DRDO and Chief Executive CEMILAC, admitted that the certification process of Tejas was the most challenging task his team has undertaken so far. “All the aspects what we have handled are directly related to the safety of the aircraft. In the initial days the term certification and the nuances involved were alien to many but today we are the final word. There are no compromises ever made,” Tamil Mani said. The CEMILAC officials had on many occasions rejected the inputs provided by various stakeholders of Tejas.

The fact that Tejas had no major incidents reported since its maiden flight on January 4, 2001, is seen as the strict flight clearance mechanisms put in place by CEMILAC and other certifying agencies. “Regulatory bodies, no longer isolate themselves to the rule book. Their concurrent participation in all development activities has enhanced better understanding of the safety implications of the aircraft and eventually leading to a smoother certification,” Tamil Mani said.

During the IOC-2 period, the stores integration and release (including missile firing) were undertaken on several occasions, clearing crucial test points. “The multi mode radar (Elta from Israel) was integrated and completely tested. The operational capabilities of Tejas at high altitude and low temperature was tested at Leh, in addition to expanding the flight envelope to 6 G,” says P R Baghel, Group Director (Systems), CEMILAC.

The IOC-2 period also saw the AoA (Angle of Attack) of the aircraft being increased from 17 to 22 degrees. The aircraft also demonstrated its capability to touch the AoA of 24 degrees as well. (Higher AoA is not a regular phenomenon and it happens only during carefree manouvering.) Among other critical parameters cleared by Tejas include: emergency jettisoning of all stores at one go (ensuring they don’t collide with each other after the release), engine relight, wake penetration, night flying and all weather clearance.

The aircraft has touched a maximum speed of 1.4 Mach and a maximum height of 50,000 feet so far. Barring minor snags like tyre burst, increase in brake temperature, wrong indication of fuel quantity and non-deployment of brake parachute, the 2445 flights logged by Tejas have been incident-free.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 18 Dec 2013 07:19

First look at new Tejas facilities | HAL’s hi-tech Tejas hangar goes live; first aircraft likely in 3 months

Bangalore: Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has set up a state-of-the-art facility with some of the best aerospace manufacturing technologies to take up the Tejas series production. With the built-up area of 28,000 sq meters, the Light Combat Aircraft (Production Group) has already started the series production of Tejas with the mandate of delivering the first aircraft (SP-1) to the Indian Air Force (IAF) by March 2014.

The new facility has LCA structural assembly hangar, two flights hangars and machine shops to augment the Tejas production. Backed with a workforce of over 700 personnel, with 80 per cent being in the average age group of 30 years, the set-up has come up with a sanction of approximately Rs 400 crore. Each Tejas platform should cost the IAF around Rs 200 crore. The equipment fitting on SP-1 began this year and 75 per cent of the aircraft structure is already ready. First 20 aircraft will be rolled out in the initial operational clearance configuration, while the next 20 will be in the final operational clearance format.

HAL plans to take the production rate to 16 aircraft per year from 2017 onwards. The facility will be upgraded to a major manufacturing complex consisting of sheet metal shop, process shop and heat treatment shop. Additional hangars are also coming up for support and maintenance, with further augmentation in the pipeline to accommodate the Tejas trainers and naval variant.

All hangars are equipped with forced draft systems to maintain dust, humidity and temperature control. HAL has given the mandate to head the new facility to V Sridharan, who has worked extensively on Jaguar and Hawk programmes. “We have embedded the Tejas production with best lean practices in manufacturing. Maintaining highest quality standards have been the driving philosophy behind while setting up this unit,” HAL chairman R K Tyagi told Express from Delhi. Batting for the private industry, HAL says that a total of 9362 fabricated parts will be manufactured by its external supply chain. “This step is critical in propelling HAL as a lead integrator in the national aerospace eco system,” Tygai said.

A gen-next 5-axis CNC machine installed at the facility is capable of robotically undertaking the wing skin drilling, thereby reducing the turnaround time by 80 per cent. The manufacturing jigs have been calibrated with computer-aided laser tracker to 80 micron tolerance. The manufacturing shop has been equipped with appropriate CAD software for working with digital mockup features.

To aid IAF’s Tejas squadron formation and associated flight operations, HAL has built a brand new 5000 sq meter tarmac right next to the manufacturing hangar. The flightline group from the new Tejas facility has supported six detachments (outstation trials) in this year. The Tejas variants have also logged the highest ever number of flights (485) this year.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 18 Dec 2013 07:35

Tarmak Report wrote:CEMILAC says certifying Tejas test parameters was a challenge | 2445 incident-free flights | 500-odd page RSD ready

1. the stores integration and release (including missile firing)
2. The multi mode radar (Elta from Israel) was integrated and completely tested.
3. The operational capabilities of Tejas at high altitude and low temperature was tested at Leh,
4. flight envelope expanded to 6 G
5. AoA (Angle of Attack) increased from 17 to 22 degrees. Tested to 24 degrees too, probably not all test points covered
6. emergency jettisoning of all stores at one go
7. engine relight,
8 wake penetration,
9. night flying
10. all weather clearance.
11. Speed limit to 1.4 mach
12. Max height of 50k ft

What does it take to expand the envelope to 8G from 6G? Looks like they have tested it to designed height of 50k ft. The max design speed was 1.6 mach, right? So they need to test that. And firing the gun, along with testing other weapons like BVR missiles etc.

Wonder what was the max payload LCA has been tested to so far.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Dec 2013 07:52

A Sharma wrote:CEMILAC says certifying Tejas test parameters was a challenge | 2445 incident-free flights | 500-odd page RSD ready

Among other critical parameters cleared by Tejas include: emergency jettisoning of all stores at one go (ensuring they don’t collide with each other after the release), engine relight, wake penetration, night flying and all weather clearance.

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/search/lab ... ght%20test

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas successfully completed the maiden engine relight test on Friday -- a critical parameter the programme needs to achieve for the Initial Operational Clarence (IOC-2). Military sources confirmed to Express that the Limited Series Production (LSP-7) aircraft from the Tejas flight-line, piloted by Gp Capt R R Tyagi, underwent the engine relight test at 1 pm. The LSP-7 was chased by a Hawk aircraft.
“It's a great milestone for a single-engine fighter aircraft. The relight test is the second most critical event for a fighter jet programme, after its maiden flight. The pilot took the flight to a height of 30,000 feet before the relight test, which was performed over the skies of Kolar region,” a source said.
(During Friday's test, the pilot is said to have brought the throttle down to zero for a few seconds, so that the aircraft lose power. The pilot pulled the throttle again, confirming the relight process. Engine relight is done to check the aircraft's performance in an emergency situation.)

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 18 Dec 2013 08:00

Re: Engine relight

Well done, everyone involved!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Dec 2013 09:03

thanks to tarmac! great going, and a wonderful start for HAL.

vina · Post by **vina** » 18 Dec 2013 09:08

JTull wrote:Re: Engine relight

Well done, everyone involved!

This is old(er) news. Bleated congratulations ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Dec 2013 09:10

One error there.. MMR from Israel.. its actually the Indian MMR albeit with an additional Israeli signal processor running their software, tested and validated with help from Elta. Its integration and complete testing is great news. The list of items shows amazing amount of work done this year.

That apart, the details are good and show the critical wake testing, all weather trials are over.

In the coming year, the full 8G learance should be opened up. Trials will involve the LCA with planned payload maneuvering at its corner speed at planned altitude. At different alt, speed and max G available will change.

srai · Post by **srai** » 18 Dec 2013 09:19

Kartik wrote:
indranilroy wrote: quote="rohitvats"] Is the restriction in AOA anything to do with the issue of air-flow into the nacelles at these angles? /quote]
No.
Agree with Indranil. I'd posed this question (based on something Ajai Shukla had reported, about possible flame-outs) to Cmde Maolankar at AI-'13 and he dismissed it completely.

But this conflicting 22 deg AoA that PS Subramanyam states and the 24 deg AoA that Cmde Mao stated is confusing. From what I could gather, they'd already tested it to 24 deg AoA.

Both are correct

CEMILAC says certifying Tejas test parameters was a challenge | 2445 incident-free flights | 500-odd page RSD ready

...
The IOC-2 period also saw the AoA (Angle of Attack) of the aircraft being increased from 17 to 22 degrees. The aircraft also demonstrated its capability to touch the AoA of 24 degrees as well. (Higher AoA is not a regular phenomenon and it happens only during carefree manouvering.)
...

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 18 Dec 2013 09:44

A Sharma wrote:First look at new Tejas facilities | HAL’s hi-tech Tejas hangar goes live; first aircraft likely in 3 months

...
All hangars are equipped with forced draft systems to maintain dust, humidity and temperature control. HAL has given the mandate to head the new facility to V Sridharan, who has worked extensively on Jaguar and Hawk programmes. “We have embedded the Tejas production with best lean practices in manufacturing. Maintaining highest quality standards have been the driving philosophy behind while setting up this unit,” HAL chairman R K Tyagi told Express from Delhi. Batting for the private industry, HAL says that a total of 9362 fabricated parts will be manufactured by its external supply chain. “This step is critical in propelling HAL as a lead integrator in the national aerospace eco system,” Tygai said.
...

It is good that HAL has outsourced a lot of parts out to private sector. This is good. HAL slowly can become the lead integrator like what Boeing does, and the parts are supplied from multiple private vendors. It will also be good business for private sector, who can supply parts later directly to IAF. It will also ensure quality.

A close relative who used to work in HAL earlier used to tell me that the parts were not standardized and each aircraft was unique for some parts. You couldn't easily cannibalize part from one aircraft and fit it on another as they wouldn't match exactly ( say MLG door etc). There was lot of heartburn in IAF at that time. This was in late 90s though. Now with lots of CNC machines etc, parts are manufactured to more closer tolerances.

Who knows, slowly some of these private vendors can one day match the global companies in scale and support!

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 18 Dec 2013 10:31

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 552811.cms

BANGALORE: For the first time, agencies involved in designing and developing light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas will display to the country what a pilot can do in its cockpit while the aircraft is in the sky.

Dedicating the aircraft to the nation, National Flight Testing Centre (NFTC) pilots will take it to the skies during an official flypast this Friday, marking the second Initial Operational Clearance (IOC-2) of Tejas.

Following this, the aircraft will be tested by IAF pilots and finally deemed fit for induction. This will happen after the Final Operational Clearance (FOC), expected to be achieved in 2015.

"On Friday, giant screens at the HAL airport will stream live videos of action from the cockpit," a senior DRDO official said, adding that the media will be allowed to telecast the same. If anyone has details of where it will be telecast on TV/Internet, and at what time, please do post the details

This will be the first time that the actual functioning of a pilot from a fighter aircraft will be streamed live to people. "We have come a long way since 1983, when the project was conceived. And we thought the people of the country must know the kind of technology we can boast of today," another official said.

The in-built cameras will provide visuals for the streaming. "We already have images taken during flight tests and other routine sorties in the past decade, but we are attempting to stream it live and show it to people on Friday," he said.

Speaking to TOI from Delhi, a senior official said, "Tejas now meets all the parameters prescribed by the IAF and is ready to be handed over."

Former IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal P V Naik, had on January 10, 2011 during IOC-1 said that LCA was not yet a fourth generation aircraft and that there was a long time before he would allow his men to fly it. The IAF had taken several objections to the aircraft and made it clear that it would not take the aircraft without it meeting all service quality requirements (SQRs).

Today, the LCA stands with a better angle of attack, which was only 17-19 degree in 2011. It has been integrated with electronic warfare systems and has met many other requirements the IAF had sought.

* Aug 1983: Rs 560-crore sanctioned for Project Definition

* June 16, 1984: Establishment of ADA

* Mid-1985: ADA begins full-fledged functioning

* 1988: Project Definition completed & proposal sent for project clearance

* 23 June 1993: Rs 2,188-crore including Rs 560-cr sanctioned earlier

* Jan 10, 2001: First Flight of LCA-Tejas

* 25 April, 2007: First flight of Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft

* Jan 10, 2011: First Initial Operational Clearance ( IOC)

* Dec 20, 2013: Second IOC; laying foundation for Final Operational Clearance expected in 2015

Rs 7kcr spent so far

A total of about Rs 7,000 crore has been spent of the project definition, design and development of the Tejas MK-I. Overall, the government has sanctioned close to Rs 24,000 crore for the project. But this will comprise the complete project, including the design, development of LCA MK-II, the cost of the 40 aircraft ordered by the IAF, development of LCA-Navy MK-I and Mk-II.

nash · Post by **nash** » 18 Dec 2013 11:09

It has been integrated with electronic warfare systems and has met many other requirements the IAF had sought.

I thought the test is going on one of PVs, i think PV3.

So it has been integrated or the further version of EW is being developed and to be tested on PV3.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Dec 2013 11:37

thats an internal suite. integration with EW systems on this can mean something as straightforward as working RWR/Chaff/Flares and also external SPJ pod.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 18 Dec 2013 14:15

So finally our LCA baby is ready to go into real world. its really overwhelming to see. One by one we will see all agencies claiming LCA as their trophy.

Success truly has many fathers

P.S. if someone can make a recording of this live streaming from LCA cockpit then it will be a real keeper.

member_28305 · Post by **member_28305** » 18 Dec 2013 14:30

merlin wrote:
Philip wrote:I thought that IOC was obtained with an R-73 Russkie missile.Derby.The CAG had earlier said that the Derby failed to meet parameters in IN service.Any news of its improved performance? Or has it been acquired bcos of the Israeli radar? LCA production figures highly optimistic.Wait and watch.However with the Rafale deal in trouble the LCA success becomes even more critical with MIG 21 phasing out.More Flankers anyone?
Obviously because of the part-Israeli radar! The Russkies will charge us two arms and a leg for integrating the R-77 (that is if they don't refuse outright!).

Which other BVR weapon is available for integration? Maybe the Chinese ones?

What abt MICA?

Available, and one of the best BVR missile.. Integration with LCA is possible?

member_28305 · Post by **member_28305** » 18 Dec 2013 15:01

A Sharma wrote:First look at new Tejas facilities | HAL’s hi-tech Tejas hangar goes live; first aircraft likely in 3 months

I was surprised to see a Ancient Computer with CRT monitor in the "State of the Art" Facility.

Even though tat might be more than sufficient for the given purpose..

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 18 Dec 2013 15:34

scroll down you will see a LCD monitor

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 18 Dec 2013 16:54

sibyt wrote:
A Sharma wrote:First look at new Tejas facilities | HAL’s hi-tech Tejas hangar goes live; first aircraft likely in 3 months
I was surprised to see a Ancient Computer with CRT monitor in the "State of the Art" Facility.
Even though tat might be more than sufficient for the given purpose..

Here comes the NEW AND IMPROVED scooter helmet debate.

rrao · Post by **rrao** » 18 Dec 2013 17:51

sibyt wrote:
A Sharma wrote:First look at new Tejas facilities | HAL’s hi-tech Tejas hangar goes live; first aircraft likely in 3 months
I was surprised to see a Ancient Computer with CRT monitor in the "State of the Art" Facility.
Even though tat might be more than sufficient for the given purpose..

Take a magnifying glass and look more closely you can spot lizards, flies and mosquitoes too!!!! How come you forgot to mention that Almonard industrial fan hanging out there? You cant see such things in LM and Boeing facilities!!!!

Will · Post by **Will** » 18 Dec 2013 18:51

Ain't such facilities supposed to be spotless clean? It looks more like a construction site (pun not intended)

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 18 Dec 2013 19:35

A Sharma wrote:First look at new Tejas facilities | HAL’s hi-tech Tejas hangar goes live; first aircraft likely in 3 months

A tight slap on the face of naysayers.

The CRT is there to remind us that it's a sarkari organization so that people don't go all "WOW we have arrived" after seeing the pics.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 18 Dec 2013 19:59

The dusty SRDEs spaces show we are still grounded

-- Nice pictures to see and I am sure lot more nice ones to come. A big milestone being crossed here and will become a part of the history.

Imagine the new baby LCAs rolling out of this facility and as they are being tested by the test pilots next door slowly begin the roar of their engines and start their taxi trials and then take to the skies ready to own. goosebumps!

The photo showing the big hanger ready to assemble multiple LCAs is really nice.
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2013/12/f ... -hals.html

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 18 Dec 2013 20:13

Looks like a VERY small facility if compared to most modern fighter factories in the West or in China, almost a workshop. To produce any decent numbers they would need a facility at least 5 times this size. Looks like HAL is going more for the bespoke job production than thinking of a long term batch production model.

Nikita Khrushchev once famously said that Soviet factories were "turning out missiles like sausages". Without firm commitments from the IAF and the guarantee of government support, the LCA won't be turning out like "sausages" anytime soon.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Dec 2013 20:35

well it can maybe produce around 6-8 a.c in parallel just the new jaguars were done here...and deliver 1 a/c a month
we are certainly not going to churn out around 30 planes a month which iirc was the peak F-solah production rate in cold war era.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Dec 2013 20:36

b24 liberators rolled off the lines one every 20 minutes or so once upon a time

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Dec 2013 20:37

sherman tanks too. but that was a different era and tech level. they died by the 1000s too B24(poor track record) and shermans(needed 3 to deal with 1 tiger/panther/mkIV)

the de havilland mosquito on the other hand was a fabulous work of art - fastest in the war, highest ceiling bar the me262 types, long deep strike range, decent bombload, heavy cannons, radar, rockets, lo-lo-lo warrior....

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Dec 2013 21:49

nash wrote:
It has been integrated with electronic warfare systems and has met many other requirements the IAF had sought.
I thought the test is going on one of PVs, i think PV3.

So it has been integrated or the further version of EW is being developed and to be tested on PV3.

It is PV1, which hasn't flown since the refit.

Flight test update:
From:
LCA-Tejas has completed 2439 Test Flights Successfully. (09-Dec-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-378,LSP1-74,LSP2-289,PV5-36,LSP3-177,LSP4-102,LSP5-237,LSP7-76,NP1-6,LSP8-62)

To:
LCA-Tejas has completed 2448 Test Flights Successfully. (17-Dec-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-380,LSP1-74,LSP2-289,PV5-36,LSP3-180,LSP4-102,LSP5-240,LSP7-77,NP1-6,LSP8-62)

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Dec 2013 22:08

Sorry to be a downer on this thread, but what happnes to the mk 2 if the next us admin decides to sanction the ge 414, claiming that it will damage the strategic balance of the region.

Can the EJ engine be integrated in the air frame in 2016 or 18. In time for it to enter service

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Dec 2013 22:43

With resource and time crunch, they would not design and build a prototype for contingency sake alone.