LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Sagar G » 21 Dec 2013 19:07

Narayana Rao wrote:Pardon me for asking is there any danger of GE stopping supply of engines? With all happenings around between us and India is there any guaranteed production of engines in India, spare parts etc?


There is but seeing that we have already partially GUBOed with the full GUBO session seeming to be imminent we can enjoy getting our b@lls fondled for the coming decades.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Sagar G » 21 Dec 2013 19:09

Karan M wrote:we can stockpile parts but even i think choice of EJ for LCA would have been better. but if US sanctions LCA again, thye can kiss goodbye to any large military deals for a long long time. Indian military will not trust them again. :rotfl:


I say they will. Willing to bet ???

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SSridhar » 21 Dec 2013 19:19

Narayana Rao wrote:Pardon me for asking is there any danger of GE stopping supply of engines?

I do not believe that the situation today is the same as 1998 and I see no danger of GE stopping anything like that. That said, the US is the most unreliable supplier and ally, anyway. Unfortunately, we are beginning to depend more and more on them for critical things.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Sagar G » 21 Dec 2013 19:22

SSridhar wrote:I do not believe that the situation today is the same as 1998 and I see no danger of GE stopping anything like that. That said, the US is the most unreliable supplier and ally, anyway. Unfortunately, we are beginning to depend more and more on them for critical things.


Are you saying that GE and US are two different entities ??? If not then you are contradicting yourself and if yes then please tell how come they are different ???

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby subhamoy.das » 21 Dec 2013 19:28

The build quality of LCA in the pictures above does not look good. Any comments?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Karan M » 21 Dec 2013 19:32

Sagar G wrote:
Karan M wrote:we can stockpile parts but even i think choice of EJ for LCA would have been better. but if US sanctions LCA again, thye can kiss goodbye to any large military deals for a long long time. Indian military will not trust them again. :rotfl:


I say they will. Willing to bet ???


yes

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Karan M » 21 Dec 2013 19:33

subhamoy.das wrote:The build quality of LCA in the pictures above does not look good. Any comments?


its actually pretty good. the cockpit, undercarriage all appear well integrated. only some welds on the metal near the aux intake are visible.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Sagar G » 21 Dec 2013 19:38

Karan M wrote:yes


Let's see who get's to say "I told you so" then :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby LakshO » 21 Dec 2013 20:14

Rahul Devnath: Thanks for the lovely pics of latest inductee into IAF!!! Felt proud as an Indian to have such a good machine locally made. Hope we get these into the force in requisite numbers

SSridhar wrote:That said, the US is the most unreliable supplier and ally, anyway. Unfortunately, we are beginning to depend more and more on them for critical things.


That is so true!!! The US can never be relied upon as a friend. I am yet to understand why the GoI is so enamoured of anything & everything American. I can't recollect the US having done anything for India (the nuclear deal doesn't count as I see it as lousy deal, IMVHO). As for the strategic partnership, it is more of a sham/charade to jerk us Indians around :P

Contrast the American behaviour with what the Soviets/Russians provided us with - Brahmos, Su-30MKI, assistance with the nuclear sub etc. When it comes to friendship, I rate Russia, Israel and maybe France way more than You-Yes-Yay.

Just my 2 paise.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby subhamoy.das » 21 Dec 2013 20:25

The only 3 entities who can pose a challenge to US are - Indian Union, European Union and the China. of these EU is under US control via NATO. That leaves out Indian Union and China. US will only help Indian Union to the extent of balancing out China. Indian is also using US to the same extent. With out the China factor India and US are actually competitors and this will be more evident in the coming decades.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby subhamoy.das » 21 Dec 2013 20:30

How much explosive can LCA carry - 2.5T?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby ArmenT » 21 Dec 2013 20:45

Karan M wrote:
subhamoy.das wrote:The build quality of LCA in the pictures above does not look good. Any comments?


its actually pretty good. the cockpit, undercarriage all appear well integrated. only some welds on the metal near the aux intake are visible.

That aux intake/depressurization cock panel seems to have taken a beating -- it has a crumpled look to it. Any ideas what could have caused it?

There also seem to be some paint chips missing in the other pictures (you can see the yellow primer underneath), but that is to be expected from an airframe that is regularly flying.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Karan M » 21 Dec 2013 20:46

>>Let's see who get's to say "I told you so" then :mrgreen:

time will tell. but some deals showed some skepticism about khans behaviour remained even as others went their way.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Karan M » 21 Dec 2013 20:50

>>That aux intake/depressurization cock panel seems to have taken a beating -- it has a crumpled look to it. Any ideas what could have caused it?

that could be a scratchbuilt mod to an existing intake (it seems to have been cut open and rewelded), as versus one built ab-initio. in previous LCAs too, one can see some "modified" parts/portions of airframe which weren't finished as well as the other parts. IMHO, the standard series built LCAs (to a std design) will be better.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby rajanb » 21 Dec 2013 21:06

subhamoy.das wrote:The build quality of LCA in the pictures above does not look good. Any comments?


This would happen when you are custom building aircraft. You will not see it (hopefully), in the productionised version. If we, as I also did, noticed it, the IAF would have pointed it out. If I remember that aux intake had been modified during the >2450 filghts.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_20067 » 21 Dec 2013 21:06

India is actually going ahead with the purchase of additional C-130s (decision was made yesterday http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/india ... -us-418450)... so all the sabber rattling is kind of showboating by UPA before the election ---- in addition the diplomat is not a saint either...

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Karan M » 21 Dec 2013 21:10

subhamoy.das wrote:How much explosive can LCA carry - 2.5T?


Only if there was no weight reduction and it included telemetry eqpt.

However, from current figures, ~3.2T appears reasonable.
Max Take Off Wt - 13T
Max Payload theoretical - 3.5T
Clean TOW - 9.8T per ADA (from earlier reports 10.5T w/300-400kg of telemetry, w/300 kg additional weight reduction possible and 7 pylons+2 missiles). So 9.8T appears reasonable.
So Max Payload achievable = 13-9.8=3.2T

3.2T best case - is in addition to 7 pylons and 2 missiles; conservative, the reverse.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby rajanb » 21 Dec 2013 21:13

Sagar G wrote:
Karan M wrote:we can stockpile parts but even i think choice of EJ for LCA would have been better. but if US sanctions LCA again, thye can kiss goodbye to any large military deals for a long long time. Indian military will not trust them again. :rotfl:


I say they will. Willing to bet ???


So am I saying YES, along with Karan! 8)

I have been chattering to American friends (over two decades) and they are really pissed off on many counts over their admin: O'Bomber, O' BomberCare, Foreign Policy, the lack of support (politically) to GI Joe, the slide of the United States into a mediocre power and the gripes go endless. When I told them about DK, they have read about it and got back saying :eek: Especially when I told them that some of us consider it as "Instituional Rape", the transfer of AbuGharib and Guantanamo to NYC!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SaiK » 21 Dec 2013 21:57

crumpled look is fine, but jigs and the build process needs to improve is all that shows to an aam view. when they get to creating them, they can fine tune, what are all the LRUs, improve plug and play design model, and machine pressed components.

btw, i have to agree.. even if it is welded joints, one could always finish it. it would only benefit the surface aerodynamics.

can't those intakes be carbon composites? once the design is finalized, they can create a jig that precisely does the moulding correct.

the lesser the rivets, better the design. the whole unit can be one machine pressed.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby putnanja » 21 Dec 2013 22:02

We would need to look at LSP-8 closely before making any statements for/against build quality. That is the one closest to the IOC-II/SP design. Others have a lot of changes made to them over the years, so it might not look so good. Also, I think for serial production, they will have better tools/processes rather than the one-off manual building they have been doing so far. So quality should be better on the SPs. As the article on HAL manufacturing reports, they are now having a state of art machines to build the planes, so things should be much better.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SaiK » 21 Dec 2013 22:05

also rethink on aux intake could be actually be driven from the front inlet design - variable geometry and controls.

and stronger the 3d modeling software is, the better would be the solution. all driven by data collection. i think, we should move towards advanced machinery usage than too much human hand approach. this is going to be the next challenge - production engineering and redesigns.

the future versions, can't be hand welded.. they have to think in line with versioning and augmenting the development process, as the baseline for future versions would be the machine done ones.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby rohitvats » 21 Dec 2013 22:42

In the excitement over LCA induction, we seem to be missing the news about Sitara IJT. It seems the issues have been resolved and HAL is working full-throttle towards IOC. Induction of Sitara into IAF service would be equally momentous occasion. One very positive aspect of Indian
IJT will be the fact that rookie IAF pilots and future leadership will be exposed to homegrown product from an early stage. And learn to appreciate the same.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Hitesh » 21 Dec 2013 22:53

How is Kaveri a failure? From wiki, Kaveri has 13% more thrust than the GE 404 engine used to power LCA planes. Why can't we use Kaveri to power LCA Mk I? That would save us a lot of money.

Also, are the air intakes too small to take advantage of Kaveri engine capabilities? Will Mk II have bigger air intakes to allow Kaveri to produce more thrust?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Misraji » 21 Dec 2013 23:17

rohitvats wrote:....One very positive aspect of Indian IJT will be the fact that rookie IAF pilots and future leadership will be exposed to homegrown product from an early stage. And learn to appreciate the same.

Or learn how to solve problems incrementally with homegrown product till it becomes successful.

As a nation/society/engineers, we need to imbibe/accept incremental development mentality w.r.t processes and people (both workers/leaders/users).
Nothing is successful in the first attempt. Success only comes from repeated failures.

--Ashish

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby astal » 22 Dec 2013 00:13

Congratulations to ADA and all agencies involved. Overcoming a remarkable series of travails, Tejas/LCA has earned its way into the IAF.

Wonderful speech by Air Chief Marshall N.A.K Browne. His attitude is in stark contrast with the attitude of IAF officers during IOC 1. I hope lessons from IOC 1 are institutionalized and no serving or former IAF or DRDO officer will attempt to wash dirty laundry in public.

I would like to list some of the things that went really well over the last 5-7 years.

1. Major increase in funding lead to testing multiple points simultaneously to speed up IOC 2.
2. Improved ownership, interaction and project management on the part of IAF.
3. Delink Kaveri from Tejas
4. Split program in MK1 and MK2
5. Contribution by Navy in actively pushing LCA and funding.

Honestly Kaveri is still in the "tender for foreign technologies stage" and is not going to power LCA soon except for TD.

All in all though, contrary to the gloom around IOC 1, the future looks bright.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Karan M » 22 Dec 2013 02:11

This has the first explicit quote from Shri Antony which states IAF requirement of LCA alone can be 200.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 990_1.html

"The IAF is keenly looking forward to induct the aircraft into the force," Antony noted.

The IAF will induct six squadrons of Tejas after the FOC.

"The IAF will induct the first squadron of LCA Mark-1 from 2015 and second squadron from 2017. Production of Mark-1 will start soon.

The air force subsequently will accept four squadrons of Mark-II, while Indian Navy will induct 40 of its naval variant," Antony told reporters later.

Each squadron will have 20 aircraft and will be based at Sulur Air Force Base near Coimbatore in southern Tamil Nadu.

"The IAF requirement will go up to 200. The Mark-1 will be fitted with GE-404 engines and Mark-II GE-414 engine. As this aircraft meets the staff requirement of the IAF, it has accepted it," Antony said.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Karan M » 22 Dec 2013 02:12

astal wrote:Congratulations to ADA and all agencies involved. Overcoming a remarkable series of travails, Tejas/LCA has earned its way into the IAF.

Wonderful speech by Air Chief Marshall N.A.K Browne. His attitude is in stark contrast with the attitude of IAF officers during IOC 1. I hope lessons from IOC 1 are institutionalized and no serving or former IAF or DRDO officer will attempt to wash dirty laundry in public.

I would like to list some of the things that went really well over the last 5-7 years.

1. Major increase in funding lead to testing multiple points simultaneously to speed up IOC 2.
2. Improved ownership, interaction and project management on the part of IAF.
3. Delink Kaveri from Tejas
4. Split program in MK1 and MK2
5. Contribution by Navy in actively pushing LCA and funding.

Honestly Kaveri is still in the "tender for foreign technologies stage" and is not going to power LCA soon except for TD.

All in all though, contrary to the gloom around IOC 1, the future looks bright.


Excellent post.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_23360 » 22 Dec 2013 04:36

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2013/12/t ... ology.html

PS Subramanyam, Director Aeronautical Development Agence (ADA), in an exclusive interview with Broadsword

Q. How good is the Tejas, which now has an initial operational clearance?

As a technologist I would say that many improvements have been made in the last three years. We have successfully addressed all the apprehensions the Indian Air Force (IAF) had.

Today there are no serious technology challenges ahead. This year, we have test-flown the Tejas from IAF bases like Jaisalmer, Uttarlai, Jamnagar and Gwalior. In all these places, we operated the aircraft ourselves, while the IAF watched. We demonstrated that we could turn around the same aircraft after a gap of an hour or so. On occasions, one Tejas did three sorties a day. The IAF technicians and maintenance officers eventually told us that they now see an aircraft that is reliable enough for combat operations.

Q. Is the Tejas Mark I ready for war?

From the standpoint of operational preparedness, Initial Operational Clearance provides the capability of firing missiles, dropping laser guided bombs, conventional bombs and practice bombs. These weapons have been fired with sensors --- inertial navigation systems, and radar and laser systems. That show the Tejas performs well as an integrated weapons platform.

Q. But there are many weapons systems that are still not fitted?

All that is pending is the integration of the “beyond visual range”, or BVR, missile. We are obtaining a BVR missile from Israel for integration and demonstration.

Inflight refuelling capability, and the integration of a BVR missile and a gun are capabilities that will be achieved before the Tejas gets Final Operation Clearance. The IOC clearance, according to conventions world wide, are this --- conventional and guided bombs and close combat missiles.

Q. Given the long time that IOC has taken, what would you say is a realistic date for getting FOC?

I’m targeting FOC for end-2014. This is realistic because the design processes are not starting now. The inflight refuelling system was ordered a year ago. Design and development for this has been on-going and some of the work is already half completed. So I am confident.

Q Is the Tejas going to be a hangar queen” or is it easy to maintain?

I’m glad that the IAF has pushed us to ensure that this aircraft is maintenance friendly. We have had IAF technicians and officers on the shop floor with us when we prepare the aircraft for sorties. They watch for difficulties in maintenance. Based on their suggestions, which they convey to us through “Requests for Action”, we have carried out some 200 design corrections to make the Tejas more maintenance friendly. We are trying to reduce the “maintenance man-hours per flight-hour”.

This exercise has been done over the last three years and the IAF now believes that Tejas is maintenance friendly. Notwithstanding that, Maintenance Evaluation Trials will be carried out in a couple of months. I always say that when we buy a car, we don’t just want it to go at 140 kmph. More importantly, we want it to be available to us everyday.

Q. You’ve set ambitious timelines for the Tejas Mark II. Are they unrealistic?

We are close to finalizing the engine contract with General Electric, the chosen vendor. By the first quarter of the next year, i.e. March 2014, the preliminary design would have been frozen. Somewhere in 2018, the Mark II will be ready for productionisation. This time there will be no prototypes. We will design for production. We have learned from the mistakes we made in the Tejas.

Besides, there is no ambiguity in the Mark II, as there was in the Mark I. There are not likely to be any changes in the engine, radar, missile, communications. The equipment is known.

Q. The navy is concerned at the lack of progress in the Naval LCA

The naval Tejas is a different challenge. We had incorrectly thought that deriving a naval variant from an air force variant would be easier. But, as we learnt, it is the other way round.

We began with an undercarriage built for the air force Tejas. But landing on an aircraft carrier involves a much higher descent rate, which means the landing gear must be much stronger. When the aircraft catches the arrestor hook, the deceleration is enormous. When we did the load analysis, the whole bottom gear had to be re-engineered.

I will not hesitate to say today that deriving a naval variant from an air force variant of the Tejas is a sub-optimal solution. But, having learnt this, the Mark II will be an optimal solution. We will not do any derivative from the air force version. It will be, ab initio, a naval design.

Q. After the Tejas, ADA has been pushing hard for a programme to develop an Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)? Where is that?

There is no approved programme yet, but the DRDO had approved a feasibility study which we have done. We are trying to arrive at the specifications of an engine that can give us supercruise (i.e. flying at supersonic without afterburner) but that kind of engine is not readily available. So we are deliberating on whether we should start designing an engine ab initio, or improve upon an existing engine. The IAF is very keen on the AMCA.

Q. How long would this take to enter service?

The AMCA would need 7-10 years for development, and so would enter production only in the mid-2020s. We would require time for building prototypes, stabilising the design, establishing a production line. We would gain expertise from the (Indo-Russian) Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme.

Q. Would we have both the AMCA and the FGFA?

These are two different classes of aircraft and there is no clash between them. The FGFA is a 30 tonne class heavy fighter with a long range. The AMCA would be a 20 tonne medium fighter, with an extreme range of about 1000 km.

Nor does it clash with the MMRCA. The Rafale is an early-1990s design. It does not fall into the 5th generation in terms of stealth characteristics. So the air force sees a place for the AMCA in its future fleet.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Gurneesh » 22 Dec 2013 05:05

akshat.kashyap wrote:Q. But there are many weapons systems that are still not fitted?

All that is pending is the integration of the “beyond visual range”, or BVR, missile. We are obtaining a BVR missile from Israel for integration and demonstration.

Inflight refuelling capability, and the integration of a BVR missile and a gun are capabilities that will be achieved before the Tejas gets Final Operation Clearance. The IOC clearance, according to conventions world wide, are this --- conventional and guided bombs and close combat missiles.

Q. Given the long time that IOC has taken, what would you say is a realistic date for getting FOC?

I’m targeting FOC for end-2014. This is realistic because the design processes are not starting now. The inflight refuelling system was ordered a year ago. Design and development for this has been on-going and some of the work is already half completed. So I am confident.


I still can not understand why the gun was not the first thing to be tested as it can have a large impact on airframe and it may so happen (i hope not) that the frame/LRU may require changes to accommodate gun firing.

On the other hand, Derby integration should be easy, given the Israeli connection of the radar.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Karan M » 22 Dec 2013 05:35

>>>I still can not understand why the gun was not the first thing to be tested as it can have a large impact on airframe

IMHO, through simulations, they are reasonably certain the airframe etc can handle it. But integrating it, testing it and validating the LRUs affected by vibration can take time, which is why they intend to get done by FOC. R73E is a reasonably good missile, and reliable (12 firings on LCA alone), so absence of a gun till FOC (in the rare case the few LCAs till then have to go into action) won't matter much either.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby vina » 22 Dec 2013 07:53

Austin wrote:Tejas IOC movie from the hangars of HAL ADA

Sweet ! Just loved that missile firing sequence, the "tone" goes off, a "desi accented" "left missile fired" intonation and then a wow on impact and explosion, shown both from the HUD symbology and the FLIR imagery. Nice! Shows both the radar and flir working and both capable of tracking the target for a heat seeking missile solution.

And in the IAF exercise in Jaisalmer, the brochure says that within 100 secs, the Tejas demonstrated a A2G armament drop (LGB?) and an A2A missile fire. So truly multirole right at IOC, a far cry from the namby pamby Eurofighter and Rafale and Gripen at induction which didn't have such multirole capabilities right from day 1!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Gurneesh » 22 Dec 2013 10:53

BTW, anyone have any chaiwala info on LSP6 ?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby rajanb » 22 Dec 2013 11:07

Gurneesh wrote:BTW, anyone have any chaiwala info on LSP6 ?


In fact, I was surprised to see at https://www.ada.gov.in/MajorMileStone.html no mention of LSP6. So is it already built? No mention of spin tests anywhere. And the road to FOC does not talk of it. Am confused onlee.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby vic » 22 Dec 2013 11:13

SP series has been under assembly atleast since three years as Ajay Shukla posted a pic of the fuselage of an SP under production in Feb 2011. Now the issue is that IAF has still not placed a formal contract/order for next 20 LCA Mark-1. If they intend to role them out even from 2017 onwards then the order has to be placed now and cannot be delayed till FOC.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_28305 » 22 Dec 2013 11:31

Im sure (actually Hoping) that the ferry range of 1700km, mentioned in the article is actually 1700 miles....

which is 2735 kms. It matches with our earlier specs..

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby vic » 22 Dec 2013 11:49

ADA-DRDO understate the range. As per them PAKFA& Su-30MKI has range of 1500km, MMRCA & AMCA Range of 1000km and LCA range of 500km in combat missions.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby rrao » 22 Dec 2013 19:34

Image

Ex RM Mr. George Fernandez visited LCA MMR Antenna pedestal test facility on 25th July 1998 along with EX HAL chairman Mr. CKD Nair !!!! Photo taken during that occasion is on display at HAL heritage museum!!!
Last edited by rrao on 22 Dec 2013 22:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Brando » 22 Dec 2013 19:44

Have they ever released videos of the LCA's High AOA tests or spin recovery testing ???

Given the emphasis on the LCA's aerodynamics I'm a little surprised that the LCA still has yet to break past the high 20s in terms of AOA in controlled flight.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Indranil » 22 Dec 2013 20:37

Image

Never seen this load-out before.

If that center line tank is a 1200 ltr tank, the payload is:
Fuel weight(3600 ltrs) = 2916 kgs + weight of 3 fuel tanks
Bombs (2*1000 lbs) = 908 kg
R-73 =210 kg
Total = 4034 kgs + weight of 3 fuel tanks.

Even if it is a 800 ltr tank the payload is:
Fuel weight(3200 ltrs) = 2592 kgs + weight of 3 fuel tanks
Bombs (2*1000 lbs) = 908 kg
R-73 =210 kg
Total = 3710 kgs + weight of 3 fuel tanks.

In both cases, it is above 3.5 Tons.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8308
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Pratyush » 22 Dec 2013 20:56

IR what about the weight of the LDP. It is 300 kgs no. So it is over 4 tons.


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