LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_23694 » 22 Jan 2014 18:57

my question :
how does it compare with the rest esp - F 16/Gripen /Mirage/Migs. Against which fighters you will be very confident with the LCA
and against which of the fighters you may have concern in terms of the LCA capability
And how do you perceive its relevance beyond 2025

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Raman » 23 Jan 2014 00:05

I'd like to get the definitive range numbers - the advertised range (i.e., 300 kms) doesn't seem to square well with LCA's fuel fraction and engine SFC (which are comparable with Gripen).

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Karan M » 23 Jan 2014 00:37

Raman, IOC-2 Press Release mentions 500 km combat radius (not range) and 1700 km ferry range. Presumably, this was with load (not clean) and was without IFR (and definitely w/o OBOGS). Also the 1200 Ltr wing tanks and a 720 Ltr central tank. Net, with IFR, bigger central tanks it could increase even further.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Indranil » 23 Jan 2014 02:11

Here is the collated list of questions till now.

1. As you might see, I have not added questions listed by members. This is because either the answer to it is known, or it definitely cannot be answered now, or it will be answered as it compares very well when compared to say a Mirage 2000. I would have very little time. Want to make the most of it. If you feel your question is not listed here, please ask and I (or somebody else) would answer.

2. I am not so comfortable discussing radar, avionics and weapons. Soliciting help from knowledgeable members to ask these questions (Karan M would you be interested)?

General:
1. LSP6, where is it?
2. Envisaged roles
3. Difference in performance parameters of LCA-AF and LCA-Navy
4. What is the maximum payload carried by LCA so far?
5. Increase in range/payload of Mk2?
6. Why has there been only 1 flight of AF variants since Dec-31 according to ADA website?
7. Is FOC possible by this Dec? Or is it mid of next year?
8. Status of Mk-II. Has the metal cutting begun? When can we expect first engine run/flight?
9. Any plans of Mk3?

Airframe related:
1. Current AoA achieved? What is the STR at this AoA. Target AoA for FOC? STR at that AoA? Will it satisfy STR mentioned in ASR, or will it be met only in Mk2? There was a paper discussing levcons on the AF-models as well owing to their superior L/D ratio. Is it being considered?
2. There were published studies on the use of MLG doors as airbrakes. However Mk2 models show the same airbrakes as Mk1. Does it mean the uncommanded pitch-up on deployment of airbrakes has been satisfactorily solved? Or is this still an ongoing study?
3. Are sharper pylons being developed?
4. Many models (even wind tunnel ones) of LCA show the inboard pylon to carry 2 1000 lb bombs in tandem. However, I have never seen an LCA fly with this configuration. Can the LCA do the same?
5. Are the issues related to the toe-touch during ejection resolved since AI'11?
6. Has the minimum chute jettison speed reduced from the 40 kmph identified at AI'11?
7. Buffeting at supersonic flight near sea level was reported. If true, has it been fixed?
8. Will both 750 ltr and 1200 ltr supersonic tanks be tested before FOC?
9. On the N-LCA Mk2 the position of the landing gear would be brought more towards the wing/fuselage joint. The landing gear will then retract into a fairing for that. That will also free up space in the fuselage for additional fuel. Models don’t show any fairing. Any information.
10. Any scope of Mk2 to supercruise?
11. Leh trials - problems/issues faced? Fixes implemented?
12. Configuration for which combat radius of 500 km and ferry range of 1700 km is reported
13. Have we identified the supplier for the indigenous tires?
14. Can you confirm that the active fuel proportioner has already been integrated?

Radar, avionics and weapons:
1. Missiles. BVR-R77?, WVR-Python5? A2G-Kh-59?
2. Is the radar a hybrid one or 2032 in its entirety?
3. Any information of IRST on Mk2?
4. Status/scope for integration of (a) EL/M-8222 [jamming] (b) EL/M-2060 [recce] (c) SIVA HADF [ESM]
5. MAWS on Mk1 - active or passive? Same question wrt Mk2.
6. ECM/ESM antennas - solid state (AESA)?


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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby srai » 23 Jan 2014 04:03

^^^

I think we forgot about the center pylon. Is that going to be activated by FOC?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Indranil » 23 Jan 2014 04:13

The answer to that is yes, as evident from Kartik's talk at AI and also from the Tejas website.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby vic » 23 Jan 2014 08:21

Any plans for:-

DIRCM
Towed decoy
Sat com
CFT on LCA?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby vic » 23 Jan 2014 08:22

Karan M wrote:Raman, IOC-2 Press Release mentions 500 km combat radius (not range) and 1700 km ferry range. Presumably, this was with load (not clean) and was without IFR (and definitely w/o OBOGS). Also the 1200 Ltr wing tanks and a 720 Ltr central tank. Net, with IFR, bigger central tanks it could increase even further.


Note that if LCA range is referred as 500km then DRDO refers Su-30MKI range also as 1500km

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Kartik » 23 Jan 2014 09:08

A few questions from my end:

- Is an AESA radar definitively being planned for the Tejas Mk2?
- What is the status of the ODL for the IAF and can Tejas Mk1 fighters be datalinked currently?
- What is the status of the kevlar radome and does it restrict radar range to 45km as one report suggested?
- What is the status of the new landing gear that was re-designed for NP-1 NLCA?
- And another one that is not at all technical- :D Will the Tejas enter service without an HF designation?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SaiK » 23 Jan 2014 09:12

towed decoy is a definite no for mk1. possible for mk2 and beyond.. nice to have feature along with other ECM features including a minature short-range IR jammer on the towed edge [increase life of the decoys].

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Karan M » 23 Jan 2014 09:15

Hi Indranil, sure thing - I'll ask but it would be good if several/many members also picked up these qns to ask... I dont know how many the gent will be able to answer and how the chat will be structured..so more people pick up all this stuff the better.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SaiK » 23 Jan 2014 09:16

get yourself a time slot, and announce ahead the number of questions you have before you annoy anyone with a huge list.
i'd say prioritize the questions, so that the most significant ones gets answered.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Indranil » 23 Jan 2014 09:23

Karan M wrote:Hi Indranil, sure thing - I'll ask but it would be good if several/many members also picked up these qns to ask... I dont know how many the gent will be able to answer and how the chat will be structured..so more people pick up all this stuff the better.

I agree.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby srai » 23 Jan 2014 09:37

^^^

Coordination is required ... any forum member participating should first read the full chat (if joining late) and ask only questions not already asked. Going by forum history trends, there is a tendency for new or members not following a discussion closely to ask the same questions which were already answered many cycles ago.

And as SaiK pointed out, questions should be prioritized. To get as many questions answered in a chat format (hence typing), questions should be short and specific. He is not going to have time read elaborate questions nor type elaborate answers.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby mody » 23 Jan 2014 13:25

I feel a LCA MK-III should be pursued, but not as a full fledged Stealth, but more as a further evolution of the MK-II.
My wish list for the MK-III variant would be:

1). Co-bonded co-cured composite panels, instead of the current riveted ones. Will help reduce the weight and also decrease the RCS.
2). Increase in the composite content of the plane, from the current 45%, to between 50-60% by weight.
3). 800 lts or 1,200 ltr con-formal fuel tanks. Also hopefully fabricated from composite panels.
4). Increase in number of hard points to 9 or atleast 8+1 from the current 7+1.
5). Change of engine to GE 414-EPE rated for 110-120 Kn thrust or kaveri based engine for a minimum 95-105 Kn Thrust.
6). Improvements in the desi AESA radar (assuming that we manage to get one for the MK-II)
7). Improvements in the avionics and mission computer.
8). All internal EW and ECCM suite.
9). Maybe supercruise, with reduced weight and 110-120 Kn EPE engine.

The development would be parallel to the AMCA.
The production for the LCA can be 2 squadrons of MK-I (hoping for 3 actually), followed by 4 squadrons of MK-II and another 4 squadrons of MK-III.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby vic » 23 Jan 2014 13:34

I think LCA Mark-3 should be something like EADS MAKO that was cancelled.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_22905 » 23 Jan 2014 13:34

My list:

- Is there any plan for flight testing Kaveri on a TD/PV
- Is IAF taking any initiative for indigenous engine development, where China is stealing a march over us
- Derby is there because we are using MMR/EL/M-2032 and integration is easier. But neighbourhood has got longer ranged AIM-120C-5. In this scenario today, how is derby integration relevant?
- What happened to indigenous MMR, why everywhere the radar is mentioned as israeli.
- Why there were no flight displays in Bahrein by LCA?
- Is there a gun planned for final navy version? It is missing in prototype now.
- What is the status of IFR?
- As LCA will be used for CAS heavily too…is there any plan for data link with ground forces and UAV…If not then when will they start looking at it?
- What is overall picture of battlefield network integration of LCA?
- What is the status of its electronic warfare suite Mayawi?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby merlin » 23 Jan 2014 14:11

Are the lightning tests for the *entire* Tejas complete or will it be done for FOC?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Cain Marko » 23 Jan 2014 17:55

I have just one question - nobody seems to have listed it yet:

What is the empty weight of the foc bird expected to be, iirc it was supposed to reduce by few 100kg once telemetry instruments were shed.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby A Sharma » 23 Jan 2014 18:34

DRDO Contingent at the Republic Day Parade‐2014

The aircraft on display in the Republic Day Parade 2014 is the historic aircraft that took to skies for the maiden LCA flight on 04 January 2001.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby ramana » 23 Jan 2014 20:20

So that was the LCA flown in a C17 a few days ago!!!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Kakarat » 24 Jan 2014 04:24

ramana wrote:So that was the LCA flown in a C17 a few days ago!!!

defenceforumindia.com

Image
Image
Image

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby kmc_chacko » 24 Jan 2014 06:27

^^ nice

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby vic » 24 Jan 2014 07:32

Ask about current dry empty weight, combat empty weight and MTOW of LCA

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Indranil » 24 Jan 2014 09:46

Kakarat wrote:
ramana wrote:So that was the LCA flown in a C17 a few days ago!!!

defenceforumindia.com

Image

Image


They have taken not 2 LCAs!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby tsarkar » 24 Jan 2014 12:06

I dont like speculating, but do make allowances for intelligent guesswork.
tsarkar Post subject: Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013Posted: 14 Jan 2014 22:28
Tejas can fly to any part of India via staging through air force stations all over India. It flies more economically on its own GE F404 than four P&W engines on C-17. My take is that this is a non flying LCA TD or PV being flown to Delhi for Republic Day to display on a trailer. They cannot spare a flying bird that is more usefully deployed for FOC flight testing.

A Sharma wrote:The aircraft on display in the Republic Day Parade 2014 is the historic aircraft that took to skies for the maiden LCA flight on 04 January 2001.
It is indeed TD1 that is not flying.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby pragnya » 24 Jan 2014 17:33

2 questions.

- what would be the increase in 'internal fuel' for LCA Mark 2 as compared to Mark 1??

- is there a plan for use of dual/multi rack launcher pylons for LCA Mark 1 to make up for lesser hard points??

..............................

Cain Marko wrote:I have just one question - nobody seems to have listed it yet:

What is the empty weight of the foc bird expected to be, iirc it was supposed to reduce by few 100kg once telemetry instruments were shed.


good to see you Cain. :)

...............................

Maitya, great posts. thanks.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Viv S » 24 Jan 2014 18:35

indranilroy wrote:If you feel your question is not listed here, please ask and I (or somebody else) would answer.


I'd like to know about the flight ceiling, RCS work (esp. wrt canopy & radome), integration of ejector racks, Mk2 hardpoints and about the Leh trials. Also cost estimates for the Mk2 and details about its maintenance/availability would be good to know.

If you are (or anyone else is) familiar with those points, do share so we can save ourselves some time.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SidSom » 24 Jan 2014 19:49

It is indeed TD1 that is not flying.


Noob Question: Was the Aux air intake inserted into and smoothened on the TD 1 Like LSP8. Also few extra antennae on the tail I have not seen on the TD1.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Indranil » 24 Jan 2014 22:38

Viv S wrote:
indranilroy wrote:If you feel your question is not listed here, please ask and I (or somebody else) would answer.


I'd like to know about the flight ceiling, RCS work (esp. wrt canopy & radome), integration of ejector racks, Mk2 hardpoints and about the Leh trials. Also cost estimates for the Mk2 and details about its maintenance/availability would be good to know.

If you are (or anyone else is) familiar with those points, do share so we can save ourselves some time.

Flight ceiling: 15,000 mtrs/50,000 feet.
RCS related: there is no way he will give out anything other than the canopy is tinted.
Multiple ejector rack: I will ask him, but I know the answer. It is not immediate requirement and of lesser priority. May happen in future.
Mk2 hardpoints: 7+1
Leh trials: part of the question suite
Cost estimates of Mk2: It has barely left the drawing table!
Details about its maintenance/availability: Don't expect long answers. He will say it is on par with other products. In recent Pokhran trials, they flew the same aircraft 3 times in a day etc.

I was seeing the questions that people posted on the FB page on a short trial run. It is filled with "how does it compare to other aircrafts?" "Why is it late?" "Why can't it do this and that?" each of which is asked 4-5 times. Wrestling in this cacophony, I want to ask him questions which have crisp answers.

Obviously, my judgement is far from perfect, so please feel free to ask any question you like to the man himself on FB.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Sagar G » 24 Jan 2014 22:57

vic wrote:Ask about current dry empty weight, combat empty weight and MTOW of LCA


Empty - 6560 Kg
Take off Clean - 9800 Kg
MTOW - 13,300 Kg

Data available as far back as 2011 feb techfocus.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Viv S » 24 Jan 2014 23:11

indranilroy wrote:Flight ceiling: 15,000 mtrs/50,000 feet.


I've seenn that figure before, but I assumed 50,000 ft is just what its currently clear for. As a tailless delta I would have expected it to be higher (the figure for the Mirage 2000 is over 57k ft IIRC)

RCS related: there is no way he will give out anything other than the canopy is tinted.


Why so? I doubt its a classified aspect. The F-16's HAVE GLASS program is quite well known and given that the Su-35 has a treated canopy, I'd imagine its a part of the IAF's Super Sukhoi upgrade program as well.

Cost estimates of Mk2: It has barely left the drawing table!


Yes, but if its close enough to the Mk1 one can probably tell that it'll be in the same range. Or not.

Details about its maintenance/availability: Don't expect long answers. He will say it is on par with other products. In recent Pokhran trials, they flew the same aircraft 3 times in a day etc.


True, but then again I was surprised to learn that the Mk1 had a MAWS and a SPJ. I know the answer will likely be on the lines that you've suggested but hoping for a surprise. :)

I was seeing the questions that people posted on the FB page on a short trial run. It is filled with "how does it compare to other aircrafts?" "Why is it late?" "Why can't it do this and that?" each of which is asked 4-5 times. Wrestling in this cacophony, I want to ask him questions which have crisp answers.


Oh yes! I'm really afraid they'll turn it into a ToI comments page. A waste of the gentleman's valuable time and worthless to those hoping to expand the existing knowledge base on the LCA program.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby putnanja » 24 Jan 2014 23:32

One other idea might be to send an email directly to Ananth Krishnan, through his blog with the list of questions. And see if he can forward that to Mr Suneeth Krishnan, and get answers :)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby PratikDas » 25 Jan 2014 00:44

putnanja wrote:One other idea might be to send an email directly to Ananth Krishnan, through his blog with the list of questions. And see if he can forward that to Mr Suneeth Krishnan, and get answers :)

This is a really good idea.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Indranil » 25 Jan 2014 12:32

Updated list.

1. If you have questions outside this list, you can always ask and share the information here.
2. The questions are ordered from top to bottom based on priority.
3. I will try to ask as many as I can. For one's that I can't ask, I will send AK a mail.
4. Karan would you please ask the radar/avionics questions?
5. Anybody else volunteering to ask questions?

General
1. What is the status of PV-2, NP-2? Does the program still need the LSP-6 for high AoA envelop expansion?
2. What are the envisaged roles of the LCA in the IAF? Has the role of LCA in the LCA-Mig-29K partnership in IN It will complement the Mig-29Ks on IN but is the role of Tejas in this partnership plans to use Tejas ?
3. Increase in internal fuel/range/payload of Mk2?
4. Why has there been only 2 flights for LSPs since Dec-31 according to ADA website?
5. Is FOC possible by this Dec? Or is it mid of next year?
6. Status of Mk-II. Has the metal cutting begun? When can we expect first engine run/flight?
7. Difference in performance parameters of LCA-AF and LCA-Navy
8. What is the maximum payload carried by LCA so far?
9. Any truth behind plans plans of an Mk3?
10. And another one that is not at all technical- Will the Tejas enter service without an HF designation?

Airframe related
1. Current AoA achieved? What is the STR at this AoA. Target AoA for FOC? STR at that AoA? Will it satisfy STR requirements of ASR, or will it be met only in Mk2? There was a paper discussing levcons on the AF-models as well owing to their superior L/D ratio. Is this still being considered?
2. Did the study on using MLG doors as airbrakes go anywhere? Mk2 models show the same airbrakes as Mk1. Does it mean the uncommanded pitch-up on deployment of airbrakes has been satisfactorily solved?
3. Are sharper pylons being developed?
4. Any plans of multi-ejector racks? Many models (even wind tunnel ones) show 2 1000 lb bombs in tandem on the inward pylons.
5. Will both 750 ltr and 1200 ltr supersonic tanks be tested before FOC? Can the centerline hardpoint take a 1200 ltr tank (I ask this because of clearance at rotate).
6. What is the status of the new landing gear that was re-designed for NP-1 NLCA?
7. Could you please confirm the empty weight of LCA? What is the definition of clean take off weight?
8. What is the configuration for which combat radius is 500 km and ferry range is 1700 km
9. Is the active fuel proportioner already onboard?
10. Leh trials - problems/issues faced? Fixes implemented?
11. Are the issues related to the toe-touch during ejection resolved since AI'11?
12. Has the minimum chute jettison speed reduced from the 40 kmph identified at AI'11?
13. Buffeting at supersonic flight near sea level was reported. If true, has it been fixed?
14. Have the brake overheating problem been solved?
15. On the N-LCA Mk2 the position of the landing gear would be brought more towards the wing/fuselage joint. The landing gear will then retract into a fairing for that. That will also free up space in the fuselage for additional fuel. Models don’t show any fairing. Any information.
16. Any scope of Mk2 to supercruise?
17. Have we identified the supplier for the indigenous tires?
18. Has lightning test for *entire* Tejas been completed, or will be done before FOC?

Radar, avionics and weapons
19. What is the status of the kevlar radome and does it restrict radar range to 45km as one report suggested? Status of the of the quartz radome
20. Is the radar on Mk1 a hybrid one or 2032 in its entirety? Is an AESA radar definitively being planned for the Tejas Mk2?
21. What is the status of the ODL for the IAF and can Tejas Mk1 fighters be datalinked currently?
1. MAWS on Mk1 - active or passive? Same question wrt Mk2.
2. Status/scope for integration of (a) EL/M-8222 [jamming] (b) EL/M-2060 [recce] (c) SIVA HADF [ESM]
3. Missiles. BVR: Derby, R77?, WVR: R-27, Python5? A2G: Kh-59?
4. Any information that you can share on the state of the frameless HUD development at CSIO?
5. Any information of IRST on Mk2?
6. ECM/ESM antennas on Mk1 - solid state (AESA)?

Miscellaneous question
1. Any info about the MTO of the AL-55I on the IJT? What according to you is going to be a number that IAF would be happy with?


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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Kakarat » 25 Jan 2014 13:36

^^^
What is the status of PV-1 EW updates?
when will aerial refueling tests start?
Status of serial production?
When can we see at international airshows?
Exports?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Karan M » 25 Jan 2014 16:54

FB is coming as 'loading, loading, loading' for me....with that silly icon... guess you guys will have to carry on & ask the qns. :(

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Viv S » 25 Jan 2014 17:02

Multiple ejectors/tandem pylons to be integrated as part of FOC requirement.

For that alone, the chat's been worth it.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Sagar G » 25 Jan 2014 17:04

Karan M wrote:FB is coming as 'loading, loading, loading' for me....with that silly icon... guess you guys will have to carry on & ask the qns. :(


How will anything else load when you are busy watching RaGa's tode nahi, jode campaign ads :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Viv S » 25 Jan 2014 17:12

Maximum payload carried to date - 3800kg


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