LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

[Kartik]

Why do I get the feeling that the Naval LCAs , seem better area ruled and more pleasing to the eye than the air force versions?

Perhaps because they do have a slightly better area ruling applied to the region where the leading edge of the wing attaches to the fuselage. On the NP1 the LEVCONS allow for a slightly less abrupt change in the cross sectional area.

[SaiK]

and for vina, it was onlee the frontal ramba looks perhaps!

[member_28332]

Why do I get the feeling that the Naval LCAs , seem better area ruled and more pleasing to the eye than the air force versions?

In general, a cockpit that is curved from the fuselage makes for a better looking plane. I know it is subjective but that is what I have noticed. Putting 2 people in the cockpit and still keeping the length of the plane limited is what I guess the reason to be for curving the cockpit in this fashion.

Mig-29K, Su-30MKI, F-14 (but not FA-18 so much) ... Incidentally, they are all Naval planes. Their Airforce counterparts are nice looking in their own right but not as pleasing, in my opinion.

[Philip]

Karan,your summary about the LCA programme is spot on.The principal stakeholder in any Indian defence programme is the GOI/MOD.It is the final authority as to what weapon system should be developed,its parameters,timeframe,numbers and cost.It has to manage and monitor the programme as a national duty as the money being spent is the taxpayer's money.The guns vs ghee argument is very valid.In the LCA saga,the MOD dropped the ball.When it showed indifference,the rot set in,until it was realised a few years ago that imports were prohibitively costly and it had to be salvaged,an essential asset for the IAF and not just for national pride.

The IN has shown remarkable foresight,vision and persistence with the NLCA.Lightweight though it may be ,there are situations where it can deliver and comes in at reasonable cost.It can add considerably to the IN's Fleet Air Arm strength and be used both aboard flat tops as well as from coastal naval air stations. One looks forward to the success of the NLCA.

[Ramu]

If I try to profile MoD's thought process and resulting decisions, it has been behaving more or less similar to pre independence era Raj type. Unlike space or nuclear agencies, it was inherited from british. In my opinion nothing much evolved since then.

it used to keep every sub unit (fighting & production) under its tight leash and it still does. When Gen V K Singh filed a petition, an armoured unit near delhi alarmed st antony with coup fears. MoD does not encourage autonomy or independent thought process for any of its sub units for the fear of challenging its authority. DRDO is the only sub unit which was not inherited from Raj times. It is the only unit which shows significant amount of independent thought process. Navy being an exception. MoD has to evolve.

[member_28722]

Vayu-StratPost Air Power Roundtable V

No ex-IAF is ready to back LCA and all universally blame HAL for the current dependence on imports.

[putnanja]

Final clearance eludes Tejas light combat aircraft

..
“The final operational clearance (FOC) for Tejas LCA will not happen by December 2014. It may take at least another three to six months,” K Tamilmani, director-general, aeronautical systems at DRDO, told Deccan Herald here.

The delay is due to the slippage in time to get imported fuel probe and quartz nose cone from a UK-based company named Cobham PLC.

Fitting the air-to-air refuelling probe and replacing the existing composite radome nose cone by a quartz-made one are two critical conditions, which the Tejas has to fulfil before approaching the regulator for final operational clearance.

...
“While Tejas underwent 2,700 flights so far, another 200-300 flights are still required before it is ready for the FOC,” Tamilmani said.

The quartz nose cone, which will improve the fighter’s performance by 20-30 per cent, is expected to arrive by November after which it will have to undergo ground tests followed by integration. It will add to the aircraft cost and enhance the radar’s range of detection.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) readied the first Series Production aircraft (SP1), which is expected to fly in “a few days,” he said.
...

[member_26622]

LCA SP1 readying for first flight is great news from HAL.

IAF and Army need to mimic Navy and start building platforms (hulls) in India. Doesn't matter if 90 or 99% gizmos are imported in to the hull today. The import content will drop over time as we keep plugging away and the hull designs will get better.

The way I see it - both IAF and Army want to keep importing instead of concentrating and continuing development on Desi platforms like LCA, LCH, INSAS, ARJUN, NAG, AKASH .... Look at RAFALE, APACHE, Italian imports, T-90 tin can, Hellfire/Javelin, and the most well named French Maitri ?

[Kartik]

Good to know two of the reasons for the delay in the FOC isn't just the ADA/HAL/NFTC combine. But frankly I don't think those are the only issues pending..there is no clarity on when the internal gun trials are to be held or when the Mk1 will actually fire a BVR missile..all these are required before FOC is achieved.

[Aditya_V]

Are they waiting for the quartz nose cone before conducting the BVR missile tests, as they would able to test the maximum engagement ranges etc.

[merlin]

Gives me no pleasure to say this but LCA SP-1 has missed the September 2014 deadline as well. It was the March-April 2014 deadline it had missed earlier. And LCA FOC delayed by 3 to 6 months beyond December 2014. Fingers crossed that it does not go beyond March 2015 but since ADA has mentioned upto 6 months, FOC probably won't happen even by end-June 2015. Apart from the radome and mid-air refuelling probe, gun trials and BVR missile trials as noted by Kartik, I don't think that the full envelope has been opened up yet. Upto 300 more test flights are needed so definitely some parts of the envelope are still to be opened up apart from lightning protection and spin trials (which AFAIK haven't started yet).

[srai]

Are they waiting for the quartz nose cone before conducting the BVR missile tests, as they would able to test the maximum engagement ranges etc.

First, they need to integrate a BVR to the avionics, pylons and radar. After that, they would need to carry BVR missiles in multiple payload configurations and put it through various flight envelopes. Once those are cleared, they can fire it unguided to clear separation parameters. Then only would they perform guided tests, which would include engaging non-manoeuvring/manoeuvring targets head-on, receding and crossing at min/max range and up/down against clutter/ECCM/supersonic. Also, add multiple target engagements. All this would probably require at least 10 launches, but probably more is likely.

Here is a snippet of Eurofighter's AMRAAM testing:

News | Mar 17, 2005

(Hallbergmoos – 15 March 2005) Eurofighter GmbH announced today the success achieved in recent Advanced Medium Range Air-Air Missile (AMRAAM) guided firing trials – a further milestone in proving the maturity of the Weapon System.

Typhoon DA4, piloted by BAE Systems Chief Test Pilot Paul Hopkins with Dave Sully in the rear seat, participated in the weapons trials at the QinetiQ Deep Sea Range at Benbecula in the Outer Hebrides, and was supported by an RAF flight refuelling tanker, a Nimrod MR2 to check for surface vessels within the danger area, and by the Royal Navy, who provided the unmanned Mirach targets.

The profile for this test required the Typhoon aircraft to track two targets by radar, to simulate an attack on one Mirach using a captive AMRAAM missile while simultaneously attacking the second target with an active missile. The active AMRAAM scored a direct hit on the target and destroyed it.

The developing maturity of the aircraft will be further demonstrated through the planned forthcoming guided firings, which include a launch against a jamming supersonic target, a shot using tracking data from a second Typhoon through the MIDS (Multifunctional Information Distribution System) data-link, and a twin firing against two targets.

Brian Phillipson, Programme Director Eurofighter GmbH, commented: With more than 30 aircraft in service with our four Nations, and further deliveries now being made weekly, it is important that we steadily release more and more capability to our partner air forces as they build up their fleets and their experience. This complex firing is another successful achievement in our continuing development programme, another example of the progressive capability demonstration and clearance our customers are expecting from us. It is also another demonstration of the tremendous capability of the Eurofighter compared to previous generations of combat aircraft.

[member_28788]

Guys gun testing shouldn't require the radome. Has it been done or that remains? I think gun testing is going to be one of the major major test points & it may well take time too. The report says nothing about it. But if you're stuck on radome/bvr testing you might want to test out the guns & get done.

Fitting the air-to-air refuelling probe and replacing the existing composite radome nose cone by a quartz-made one are two critical conditions, which the Tejas has to fulfil before approaching the regulator for final operational clearance.

if I were to strictly go by the news report; gun testing is not on the laundry list - which means its done? Whats the forum opinion?
I have spent good time in news releases & the way journos structure news, suggests me that the sentence quoted above was also said to the journo on sideline of some event/excercise off the hook & not through a formal press release. Which is why I wonder.

[member_28722]

Gives me no pleasure to say this but LCA SP-1 has missed the September 2014 deadline as well. It was the March-April 2014 deadline it had missed earlier. And LCA FOC delayed by 3 to 6 months beyond December 2014. Fingers crossed that it does not go beyond March 2015 but since ADA has mentioned upto 6 months, FOC probably won't happen even by end-June 2015. Apart from the radome and mid-air refuelling probe, gun trials and BVR missile trials as noted by Kartik, I don't think that the full envelope has been opened up yet. Upto 300 more test flights are needed so definitely some parts of the envelope are still to be opened up apart from lightning protection and spin trials (which AFAIK haven't started yet).

Source please ....

[Kartik]

Guys gun testing shouldn't require the radome. Has it been done or that remains? I think gun testing is going to be one of the major major test points & it may well take time too. The report says nothing about it. But if you're stuck on radome/bvr testing you might want to test out the guns & get done.

its a big deal to test the internal gun primarily because of the hazards to the platform itself. vibrations need to be tested, the ability of internal avionics to withstand those vibrations and then the matter of gun gas ingestion under different speed and altitude conditions. with the engine having been tested for re-light in mid air, at least one of the pre-requisites for gun testing is complete.

if I were to strictly go by the news report; gun testing is not on the laundry list - which means its done? Whats the forum opinion?
I have spent good time in news releases & the way journos structure news, suggests me that the sentence quoted above was also said to the journo on sideline of some event/excercise off the hook & not through a formal press release. Which is why I wonder.

had it been done, it would have been reported, its that big a deal. Unfortunately, we haven't got any updates on this from either Ananth Krishnan or Ajai Shukla, so we'll just have to wait and see. As for the BVR missile test, we're not even sure if the first BVR missile to be integrated and tested will be the R-77 or the Astra for the IAF, or the Derby, which is an IN requirement AFAIK.

[khan]

Final clearance eludes Tejas light combat aircraft

..
“The final operational clearance (FOC) for Tejas LCA will not happen by December 2014. It may take at least another three to six months,” K Tamilmani, director-general, aeronautical systems at DRDO, told Deccan Herald here.

The delay is due to the slippage in time to get imported fuel probe and quartz nose cone from a UK-based company named Cobham PLC.

Fitting the air-to-air refuelling probe and replacing the existing composite radome nose cone by a quartz-made one are two critical conditions, which the Tejas has to fulfil before approaching the regulator for final operational clearance.

...
“While Tejas underwent 2,700 flights so far, another 200-300 flights are still required before it is ready for the FOC,” Tamilmani said.

The quartz nose cone, which will improve the fighter’s performance by 20-30 per cent, is expected to arrive by November after which it will have to undergo ground tests followed by integration. It will add to the aircraft cost and enhance the radar’s range of detection.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) readied the first Series Production aircraft (SP1), which is expected to fly in “a few days,” he said.
...

The stated reason for the delay is ridiculous. Why aren't they on the phone with the vendor setting their ass on fire trying to get the parts on time? Have they started looking for an alternate vendor - to pressure the current guys if nothing else?

This seems to be an exercise in passing the buck. Some ****** scientist/-bearucrat is washing their hands over this mess - glad that they can blame some vendor for the delay.

The fact of the matter is there should be some joint responsibility over projects like this. The bearucrats should be held responsible for mismanaging the vendor.

End rant.

[Kartik]

The stated reason for the delay is ridiculous. Why aren't they on the phone with the vendor setting their ass on fire trying to get the parts on time? Have they started looking for an alternate vendor - to pressure the current guys if nothing else?

This seems to be an exercise in passing the buck. Some ****** scientist/-bearucrat is washing their hands over this mess - glad that they can blame some vendor for the delay.

The fact of the matter is there should be some joint responsibility over projects like this. The bearucrats should be held responsible for mismanaging the vendor.

End rant.

Just getting on the phone will make no difference to the timelines. If Cobham, which is a reputed firm in the field of air-to-air probes has experienced delays in designing the probe, no other firm will do it faster. That’s pretty much for sure. Not sure if the quartz radome too is being worked on by Cobham or not. But that issue arose sometime last year IIRC, so a year’s turn-around time to have a new radome designed and supplied is not too much.

A Cobham exec had stated that the Tejas has a fairly tightly packed airframe and the requirement for a retractable probe is tricky. It won’t be a simple bolt-on probe like that on the Mirage-2000, Rafale or the Thunder Bandar, which impose a small drag penalty.

Besides which, I’m pretty sure that these 2 issues aren’t the only 2 issues delaying FOC. As mentioned earlier, no BVR missile trials nor internal gun firing trials have been carried out and as far as I’m aware, no spin trials either. But it’s convenient to lay the blame on the doors of a supplier rather than talking about what other pending test points still remain and may not be completed by December.

[member_28788]

The stated reason for the delay is ridiculous. Why aren't they on the phone with the vendor setting their ass on fire trying to get the parts on time? Have they started looking for an alternate vendor - to pressure the current guys if nothing else?

Feel the same here. Besides that doesnt covers their ass for the 'gun testing' part; that has got to do nothing with radome delays; I secretly wish they would come up with some updates on gun testing which makes up to some extent.

I'm surprised that on such a critical issue why is no one being pulled up for delays. Has it got to do with leadership transitions?

[varunalh]

AK from Tarmak reporting that SP1 flew with a Hawk as chase a/c today. http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/
I did see a Tejas take off around 1.40PM following a unpainted Hawk. It could have been that

[member_28640]

Besides which, I’m pretty sure that these 2 issues aren’t the only 2 issues delaying FOC. As mentioned earlier, no BVR missile trials nor internal gun firing trials have been carried out and as far as I’m aware, no spin trials either. But it’s convenient to lay the blame on the doors of a supplier rather than talking about what other pending test points still remain and may not be completed by December.

Sirjee, I dont know if they would conduct spin trials again for the FOC but here is an excellent analysis by a test pilot who spun out the Tejas (Forgive me if some guru already posted this)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/78345390/Approach-to-High-Angle-of-Attack-Testing-of-Light-Combat-Aircraft-LCA-Tejas

[member_28640]

AK from Tarmak reporting that SP1 flew with a Hawk as chase a/c today. http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/
I did see a Tejas take off around 1.30PM following a unpainted Hawk. It could have been that

Is it possible I heard a faint sonic boom from ITPL area .. around 1 40 .. could it have gone supersonic .. and the building I'm talking about has an excellent view of the skyline near the HAL airport can see all take off's and landings..

[varunalh]

Besides which, I’m pretty sure that these 2 issues aren’t the only 2 issues delaying FOC. As mentioned earlier, no BVR missile trials nor internal gun firing trials have been carried out and as far as I’m aware, no spin trials either. But it’s convenient to lay the blame on the doors of a supplier rather than talking about what other pending test points still remain and may not be completed by December.

Sirjee, I dont know if they would conduct spin trials again for the FOC but here is an excellent analysis by a test pilot who spun out the Tejas (Forgive me if some guru already posted this)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/78345390/Approach-to-High-Angle-of-Attack-Testing-of-Light-Combat-Aircraft-LCA-Tejas

Gopiji, the document states what to expect for when they actually do the test. It doesnt state that they have already carried out the spin trails on the actual a/c

[Kartik]

AK from Tarmak reporting that SP1 flew with a Hawk as chase a/c today. http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/
I did see a Tejas take off around 1.30PM following a unpainted Hawk. It could have been that

Is it possible I heard a faint sonic boom from ITPL area .. around 1 40 .. could it have gone supersonic .. and the building I'm talking about has an excellent view of the skyline near the HAL airport can see all take off's and landings..

nope no sonic boom..airplanes are not permitted to go supersonic over populated regions. But this is good! HAL kept up one deadline, almost..they got SP-1 up in the air by September end.

[member_28640]

Gopiji, the document states what to expect for when they actually do the test. It doesnt state that they have already carried out the spin trails on the actual a/c

Sirjee sorry if I was not clear but I meant

it was decided that the ac would not be intentionally spun.Departure prevention, rather than spin recovery, will form the basis of test philosophywith full preparation for an OOCF event and its recovery.

This is why I said that I dont know if they would conduct spin trials for FOC

[Kartik]

Gopiji, the document states what to expect for when they actually do the test. It doesnt state that they have already carried out the spin trails on the actual a/c

Sirjee sorry if I was not clear but I meant

it was decided that the ac would not be intentionally spun.Departure prevention, rather than spin recovery, will form the basis of test philosophywith full preparation for an OOCF event and its recovery.

This is why I said that I dont know if they would conduct spin trials for FOC

the "full preparation for OOCF event and its recovery" implies the addition of a spin chute. anyway, I cannot access that document at work, so will need to go through it in detail later.

[member_28640]

the "full preparation for OOCF event and its recovery" implies the addition of a spin chute. anyway, I cannot access that document at work, so will need to go through it in detail later.

Further from the article sir,Yes a spin chute is added

Further, although several spinrecovery techniques have been identified in the vertical tunnel experiments, no recourseto a “piloted” recovery will be made and the spin chute will be used immediately ondeparture to protect hydraulics and provide fastest possible recovery. Severalchallenges are expected during the HaoA test campaign, these are: -
(a) Aero data validation and air data calibration in the non-linear HAoA regions.
(b) Addition of backup hydraulic and electrical power source.
(c) Design, testing and fitment of a spin parachute.
(d) Hardening of ac systems and FCS components to high accelerations androtational rates.
(e) Designing the spin recovery mode

[Yagnasri]

AK from Tarmak reporting that SP1 flew with a Hawk as chase a/c today. http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/
I did see a Tejas take off around 1.40PM following a unpainted Hawk. It could have been that

Lucky fellow.

[Thakur_B]

AK from Tarmak reporting that SP1 flew with a Hawk as chase a/c today. http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/
I did see a Tejas take off around 1.40PM following a unpainted Hawk. It could have been that

Lungi dance moment ?
http://i.minus.com/iUhoPoPMrgz1b.gif

[putnanja]

HAL, DRDO test first LCA Tejas aircraft built for IAF

NEW DELHI: State-owned HAL and DRDO today carried out the maiden sortie of the first LCA Tejas aircraft produced for the Indian Air Force by them in Bengaluru.

The aircraft named 'Series Production 1' would now undergo a series of trials under the Acceptance Performance Tests before it is handed over to the IAF, DRDO officials said here.

IAF plans to have four such aircraft in its Bangalore-based Tejas squadron before it starts evaluating them and approves it for final operational clearance, they said.

The IAF has ordered 40 LCA Mk 1 aircraft and is likely to induct five more squadrons of an advanced version of the aircraft being developed by the DRDO and HAL.
...
...

[Aditya_V]

AK from Tarmak reporting that SP1 flew with a Hawk as chase a/c today. http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/
I did see a Tejas take off around 1.40PM following a unpainted Hawk. It could have been that

Lungi dance moment ?
http://i.minus.com/iUhoPoPMrgz1b.gif

Are these without refueling probe and Quartz Radome? will they be retrofitted with these?

[srai]

^^^

First 20 LCA SPs are IOC-2 standard. Second lot of 20 SPs will be FOC standard. One can assume first 20 will be upgraded to FOC in due course, but not immediately.

[Shrinivasan]

Gives me no pleasure to say this but LCA SP-1 has missed the September 2014 deadline as well. It was the March-April 2014 deadline it had missed earlier...

LCA SP1 had its first flight on September 30th. Better late than never... atleast it did it before the month ended... so far so good ...miles to go.

[member_28788]

Gives me no pleasure to say this but LCA SP-1 has missed the September 2014 deadline as well. It was the March-April 2014 deadline it had missed earlier...

LCA SP1 had its first flight on September 30th. Better late than never... atleast it did it before the month ended... so far so good ...miles to go.

Choosing 30th September for the sortie. Looks like an overt attempt to keep the sep'14 date. So much for the sanctity of Sep'14!! WOW!
I hope they'll have that respect for other deadlines too. If they achieve FOC even on the last hour of the 31st Dec (which by all means looks difficult) it will be an heck of a way to start a new year.

[member_28722]

AK from Tarmak reporting that SP1 flew with a Hawk as chase a/c today. http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/
I did see a Tejas take off around 1.40PM following a unpainted Hawk. It could have been that

Great news ... hopefully FOC will also complete on time

[Indranil]

There is no way FOC will finish by December this year. 300 test flight require at least 7 months going by the rate of testing going on in the past 2 years (500 flights a year), and I am very skeptical of that 300 number.

By the way, a huge hurray to the maiden flight of SP1!

[kmkraoind]

From Twitter Saurav Jha @SJha1618

The Indian Navy will order some LCA Naval Tejas in the present configuration i,e Mk-1 as well. Go Navy!

Astra air-launched test against actual target soon. LRSAM dual pulse motor is working beautifully. Astra will be LCA's main BVR armament.

[Karan M]

Astra 2 may leverage LRSAMs dual pulse motor as well. So good news.

[Will]

The LCA program is imperative for the development of the combat aircraft building capability of the country. No question about that. But lets face it. The LCA is long over due with even the FOC of the Mk1 is not here yet. The Mk2 is going to be a whole new kettle of fish. No way is it going to be ready in less than 5 years even by the most optimistic assessment. The world will have raced ahead by the end of the decade. Continue with the Mk2 no doubt by start work in earnest on the AMCA. Fix the question of the engine first. Beg , borrow , steal but get a home grown engine. Have strategic tie-ups that will give access to real technology and help over come technological bottle necks. Hope some lessons in project management are learnt from the LCA.

Hope the ADA has sense and starts on the NLCA Mk2 first as the navy is a more appreciative and supportive customer.

[member_28722]

Engine and an effective supply chain for everything designed locally are the main hurdles for any future stuff. IIRC the radar and engine were the main problems of the LCA and I hope that with the local aesa awacs almsot ready, the radar problem should see a solution in very near future.
A local supply chain is an existing problem. Lets hope current government works on that.
I don't think an LCA Mk2 ready for serial production 5 years down line also is a major problem. 5th gen tech is on the anvil but its a long way from being actually affordable to deploy in numbers.
India has a requirement to get 400 light fighters between now and 2030 to maintain force levels. LCA Mk2 is meant for the same.

[Shrinivasan]

State-owned HAL and DRDO today carried out the maiden sortie of the first LCA Tejas aircraft produced for the Indian Air Force by them in Bengaluru.

Any pictures of this bird? even grainy pics shot thru layers of barbed wire would do...