LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby chackojoseph » 20 Dec 2014 17:03

Another video



Link

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Gyan » 20 Dec 2014 20:14

It seems that afterburner was not used while taking off. Shows very high level of confidence.

arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3587
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby arshyam » 20 Dec 2014 21:25

That was probably because of the longer run on take off. On a ship's short runway, they would need the afterburners. I expect to see them to be on when they reduce the take off length in future tests. The real test would the arrested landing - hope to see that soon.

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3933
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby deejay » 20 Dec 2014 21:40


member_23694
BRFite
Posts: 732
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_23694 » 20 Dec 2014 22:08

^^^^^^^^^^^
quote from the above article link

According to Dr Tamilmani, if a completely debugged Mk-II can be delivered by HAL, domestic orders alone are likely to climb to many hundreds, since the entire Mig-21 and 27 pool would need to be replaced and there will certainly be a focus on exports.


however the only concern seems to be the timeline related to Tejas MK.2 FOC : 2022 seems at least 2 years late. Hope they speed up on this one and bring on a MK.2 FOC version by 2020.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4228
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Cain Marko » 20 Dec 2014 22:48

I still feel that the IAF will order more FOC standard LCAs. The mk2 might be delayed some more and second, and the line will be left idle after the production of the first 40 birds. So another order of FOC standard will probably be on the cards, wish FOC was reached sooner - I was hoping by AeroIndia.

member_28730
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 9
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_28730 » 20 Dec 2014 23:17

Admin, Good day to you, I have just become a member, can you please advise me if I am allowed to join in any of the threads.thanks

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7719
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby rohitvats » 21 Dec 2014 01:05

Kieran wrote:Admin, Good day to you, I have just become a member, can you please advise me if I am allowed to join in any of the threads.thanks


MODERATOR NOTE:

Welcome to BRF. Please feel free to post in any thread.

We look forward to your contribution to the forum.

Sid
BRFite
Posts: 1644
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 13:26

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Sid » 21 Dec 2014 02:47

dhiraj wrote:^^^^^^^^^^^
quote from the above article link

According to Dr Tamilmani, if a completely debugged Mk-II can be delivered by HAL, domestic orders alone are likely to climb to many hundreds, since the entire Mig-21 and 27 pool would need to be replaced and there will certainly be a focus on exports.


however the only concern seems to be the timeline related to Tejas MK.2 FOC : 2022 seems at least 2 years late. Hope they speed up on this one and bring on a MK.2 FOC version by 2020.


Problem is in the definitions of "completely-debugged" for agencies delivering and receiving it. A typical project delivery issue.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36405
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SaiK » 21 Dec 2014 02:56

good start! longer run.. progressive testing!!

JTull wrote:That's a rather long run! I guess they plan to progressively reduce the run-up before delivering the ball.

btw, did you all notice it was not full on the afterburner? or it is just my eyes?

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2734
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby JTull » 21 Dec 2014 03:48

Livefist has the full statement but apparently NP1 has fully hands-off/autonomous ski-jump take-off written into its control laws.

sankum
BRFite
Posts: 713
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby sankum » 21 Dec 2014 05:07

As per Saurav Jha's article IAF Lca mk1 order is likely to be upped by 16 trainer version after first 40 mk1 and other reports IN will get 8mk1+latter 10mki=18 for a total of 74 nos which will keep production line open till 2022 @max 16/year.

More LCA mk1 can be expected as IAF and IN can use it as combat capable LIFT.

The empty weight of LCA mk2 version has been reduced to 6210 kg with further aim of 6060Kg as compared to LCA mk1 empty weight of 6560Kg as in IOC brochure.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16518
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby NRao » 21 Dec 2014 05:23

1) Rope in GE for 1/2 engine line/s (without strings), and
2) Ramp up to at least 48 a year and potentially more (up to 80)

#Doable

member_26535
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 47
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_26535 » 21 Dec 2014 05:24

From the Tarmak article

“The arrester-hook landing is not a critical test as ski-jump ". as per Dr PSS

I thought the landing will be much more difficult and complex than the ski-jump ? Should it not be ? Can gurus clarify please ?

member_28108
BRFite
Posts: 1852
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_28108 » 21 Dec 2014 05:35

http://www.oneindia.com/india/lca-navy-creates-history-in-goa-india-joins-a-superelite-club-1598768.html

LCA Navy creates history in Goa; India joins a superelite club Written by: Dr Anantha Krishnan M Updated: Saturday, December 20, 2014, 21:17 [IST]
Bengaluru, Dec 20: India on Saturday created a slice of naval history when the first home-grown naval jet Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Naval Protytype-1 (NP-1), a trainer, took off from the Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) at INS Hans in Goa for the first time. As reported by OneIndia recently, the NP-1 was piloted by Cmde Jaideep Maolankar, Chief Test Pilot of National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) situated in Bengaluru. The SBTF replicates a static model of the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) being built at the Cochin Shipyard in Kerala. The aircraft undertook the ski-jump (take-off) 300 meters away from the ramp - having a curved upward shape at one end. The telemetry feed of the crucial trial was also available at NFTC, which was closely monitored by an expert team. Sources who witnessed the NP-1 event at SBTF told OneIndia that the aircraft accelerated more than expected. "We were hoping for a 150 knot safe fly away at a climb rate of 6.4 degrees. But, the aircraft had a higher acceleration with a climb rate of around 11 degrees, which showcased the confidence of the pilot on the platform," an official said. Naval history created, says DRDO D-G Dr K Tamilmani, one of the visible faces of DRDO and its Director-General (Aero) told OneIndia that NP1 smooth take-off during the first attempt itself will give a huge boost to the programme. "There have been delays which are justifiable if you have tracked the programme from close quarters. We were dating complex technologies and NP-1 scripted naval history at INS Hansa," Dr Tamilmani said. He said as part of the current campaign, NP-1 will have five more tests at SBTF (only ski-jumps) to meet all mission parameters. "Based on the test points achieved, we will schedule the next leg of trials. The aircraft will undertake ski-jumps 90 meters from the ramp, with all weapon stores in place," Dr Tamilmani added. To a specific query, the top scientist said that the arrester-hook landing trials of NP-1 will be conducted within 6-8 months. He confirmed that the second prototype of naval LCA (NP-2) will undertake its first flight in Bengaluru soon. The NP-1 had its maiden flight on April 27, 2012. The DRDO quoted its Chief Dr Avinash Chander in an official release saying that it hopes to see home-grown combat aircraft soon flying from the decks of Indian aircraft carriers. Validation of the efforts by design teams: Navy The Indian Navy is yet to officially name the aircraft and the Chief of Naval Staff Admiral R K Dhowan had recently expressed concerns over the delay in the programme. The Admiral had also reviewed the project ahead of the SBTF trails. Reacting to the NP-1's achievement on Saturday, Rear Admiral D M Sudan, Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Air) told OneIndia from New Delhi that the NP-1 ski-jump is a validation of the effort of the design team. "The launch of NP-1 from the SBTF is a historic event. It also shows the faith the Navy has reposed in this indigenous development programme. This event would provide an impetus towards timely achievement of future milestones," Rear Admiral Sudan said. We predicted the behavior of the aircraft: ADA Chief P S Subramanyam, Director, Aeronautical Development Agency, told OneIndia from Goa that it was a ‘text-book style' launch of NP-1 at SBTF. "India has become only the third country in the world (after US and Ukraine) to have carried out such a launch. This technology is only available to a few nations. We were able to predict the behaviour of the aircraft during the entry on the ramp, while on the ramp and after its exit," he said. He said Saturday's mission was a well-orchestrated one with many agencies involved. He said the NP-1 did not have an arrester hook fitted on it. "The arrester-hook landing is not a critical test as ski-jump. Today what we have achieved will be remembered for a long to come," Subramanyam said. Our Take | OneIndia * All the stake-holders need to be patted on their back for this stupendous achievement. * The successful completion of the critical nature of the mission at first attempt itself should further boost the confidence of the user on the programme. * The Navy has been backing this programme to the hilt, which gave the ADA-HAL-NFTC combine to undertake ski-jump more confidently. User support sans any conditions important for desi programmes to flourish. * The NP-2 should join the flight-line at the earliest which should help catch-up with some of the lost time.

Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/india/lca-navy- ... 98768.html


Incidentally the length of IAC1 will be 262 meters.Anyone knows what will be the actual length of the takefoo runway ?

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Gyan » 21 Dec 2014 08:42

I am not clear about total confirmed LCA orders. My take:-

TD-1,2
PV-1,2,3,5,6 is there PV-4?
Naval LCA NP-1,2,3 Are there 4 & 5?

LSP 1 to 8 Where is 6?
SP-1 to 20 and another 20
Now another 16 twin Seater for IAF being taked about.
Naval LCA MK-1 Six or Eight? Ordered?

For MK-2 there are indications of only first 4 being ordered. Does it include one each of all four versions? I would have expected at least 4 each of all 4 versions for MK-2 production standard prototypes.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Gyan » 21 Dec 2014 08:49

Cain Marko wrote:I still feel that the IAF will order more FOC standard LCAs. The mk2 might be delayed some more and second, and the line will be left idle after the production of the first 40 birds. So another order of FOC standard will probably be on the cards, wish FOC was reached sooner - I was hoping by AeroIndia.


HAL is moving at super slow speed. At max Only 3 more LCA will be built in whole of 2015. It seems that HAL is more interested in hot babe Rafale Negotiations rather than manufactering home grown LCA. Conspiracy hat on.

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 1077
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby shaun » 21 Dec 2014 09:20

What I can get from Jha's article is , although there is no denying the whole LCA program accelerated the aero space industry but we will be getting an a/c similar to 6-teen ( WRT aerodynamics ) only by next decade !!
The control laws were tested on teen VISTA with 33 sorties recorded before pokhran 2 , so it can be safely assumed that 1995 ASR for LCA is influenced by 6-teen.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Victor » 21 Dec 2014 09:32

Gyan wrote: At max Only 3 more LCA will be built in whole of 2015.

Wasn't a foreign consultant hired to help with setting up a production line? With FOC pushed back another year, the LCA2 project is also delayed by another year and that's really the aircraft the IAF wants. I still don't buy the reasons everyone is giving for massaging this dud till it breathes. Let it die quietly and let's move on to LCA2 without wasting any more time and resources.
Last edited by Victor on 21 Dec 2014 09:40, edited 1 time in total.

member_19648
BRFite
Posts: 265
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_19648 » 21 Dec 2014 09:35

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2976/65448/the-radiance-of-tejas-a-bright-prospect-for-make-in-india.html

The Radiance of Tejas: A bright prospect for 'Make in India'

I must state at the outset, that the title of this post is a tribute to B.Harry, a true geek whose wantonly premature demise was a major loss to the analysis and archival of Indian military research and development (R&D). Needless to say, he is greatly missed by Indian military buffs, though his writings live on, such as this excellent two-part document (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/downl ... diance.pdf) on the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) published in 2004.

Ten years have passed since that paper came out, and today deliveries of combat standard units of the HAL Tejas Mk-I are beginning with the first 'series production' aircraft, SP-I taking to the air in late 2014. SP-I therefore marks the arrival of India's first indigenous combat capable fourth generation fighter that boasts the extensive use of carbon composites (more than 70 per cent of the airframe by weight) an indigenous quadruplex digital flight control system, indigenous mission computers and a modern glass cockpit capable enabling all weather day/night operations and the carriage of precision guided weapons.

Seeding an aerospace eco-system

Indeed while the LCA program has endured waves of criticism, the fact is that it has helped grow a domestic aerospace eco-system in India that has the potential to be truly game changing. This was achieved starting from a situation in the late 1980s when India had lost most of its domestic capabilities for developing fighter aircraft on account of the HAL HF-24 Marut, India's first homegrown fighter, not being succeeded by a follow on program. Owing to that, a lot of standard test facilities such as the LCA mini bird & iron Bird for flight control system Integration, a dynamic avionics integration rig, brake dynamometer & drop test rigs, secondary power system & fuel system test rigs, engine test bed, mobile electromagnetic interference/compatibility test facility etc. had to be set up in India from scratch by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) which manages the overall LCA/Tejas development program.

Today several domestic companies are involved in the Tejas program and some of them are now global Tier-II and III suppliers, having cut their teeth with this project which has seen the indigenous development and production of major sub-components such as aircraft-mounted accessories gearbox, carbon-carbon brake disc, heat exchangers, hydraulic & fuel valves etc. By value, 65 per cent of the components are now indigenous (although many are still built by HAL itself) and this is expected to climb to 80 per cent in the next few years.

All this has been accomplished with a total spend of about Rs 14,047 crores, spread over the Tejas Mk-I, MK-II and naval LCA programs (Note: I am looking at developmental costs only, not on what had been spent towards producing delivery standard aircraft). The total spend on the flagship Tejas MK-I program itself has been around Rs 8000 crores. That mind you is a rather modest amount for seeding a credible national aerospace capability, especially when you consider that almost 10 billion dollars was spent on the 2010 Commonwealth Games alone if all the related infrastructure development for that event is taken into account. And do not forget that the money for Tejas development was not sanctioned at one go. The full scale engineering development (FSED) phase-I for the Tejas program began only in 1993 with Rs 2188 crore being allocated to the program at the time which included the Rs 580 crore sanctioned in 1988 for the project definition phase (PDP). The delay in FSED allocation was in no small measure due to the fact that India had to go through the tumult of the balance of payments crisis of 1990-1991.

The scope of the 'spend' on FSED phase I was limited to building and flight testing two technology demonstrators only. One of which flew on 4th January 2001, overcoming American sanctions imposed post-Pokharan-II in 1998 which saw the whole LCA control law (CLAW) development team being thrown out of America. Undeterred by Lockheed Martin terminating its participation in the CLAW program, ADA scientists managed to develop flawless CLAW indigenously and the fact that the Tejas flight-test program has managed over 2000 flights without any incidents is a testimony to that effort.

Anyway, that first flight gave enough confidence to the government to sanction Rs 3301.78 crores for FSED Phase-II that involved the design, development and flight testing of 3 Prototypes and 8 Limited-Series. production (LSP) units. A final tranche of Rs 2475.78 crores was sanctioned as late as 2010, with the Mk-I heading towards Initial Operational Clearance-I (IOC-I) in 2011. What nobody tells you is that this staggered financial approval scheme entailed major delays which also contributed to increasing the need for several design upgrades towards obsolescence management. Indeed the entire Tejas program had to weather a time when India was emerging out of socialist stasis and going through the pangs of liberalization.

As far as I am concerned the program really materialized in the mid-1990s and the air staff requirement (ASR) of 1995 that was agreed to by ADA at the time broadly set the ultimate performance objectives for the project. With reference to the 1995 ASR, the Mk-I has already exceeded the angle of attack (AoA) requirement of 24 degrees, by some two degrees (i.e it has achieved 26 degrees), which is highly commendable and comparable to the best that the Mirage 2000 could do. This could even be increased to 28 degrees in the future. High alpha testing of course meant that parachutes and related systems developed by the Defence Development and Research Organization's (DRDO's) Aerial Delivery Research and Development Establishment (ADRDE) for spin recovery were integrated into test aircraft as a safety measure, though they were of course never required to deploy. The Mk-I has also demonstrated +7G and has flown at a maximum Mach number of 1.6 at altitude.

SP-2 meanwhile is expected to be ready by March 2015 and at least four units in all will be delivered to the Indian Air force (IAF) before the end of 2015 in order for it to form a mini-squadron in Bangalore itself. These aircraft are of course part of the initial 20 unit order for Tejas MK-Is and sport a configuration that received Initial Operational Clearance-2 (IOC-2) in December 2013. Once the full 20 unit order is executed, the IAF will operationalize a squadron at Sulur. A further 20 units will also be purchased by the IAF from HAL's production line, though these will be of a configuration that has been accorded final operational clearance (FOC).

Final operational clearance

However FOC for the Tejas Mk-I is now expected to be achieved only by late 2015. This, according to Dr K. Tamilmani, Director General (Aero),DRDO, is chiefly on account of delays in receiving two significant parts from an overseas vendor that will need to be certified for FOC acceptance. These are of course a bolt on inflight refuelling (IFR) probe and a new quartz nose cone radome, both of which are being procured from different divisions of UK's Cobham. While the Tejas program was earlier expecting to receive the IFR probe by September 2014 and the quartz nose cone by November 2014, it seems that the probe will only reach Indian shores by the end of January 2015 and the first of a total three units of the new nose cone will arrive a month or so later. It is understood that IAF teams have been making visits to Cobham to lean on them to deliver these items faster.

'If Cobham had kept its delivery timelines, the idea was to wrap up ground check outs for the IFR probe in October-November and then commence flight trials says. Some 20-25 day/night flights at different altitudes and speeds would be needed to clear the IFR system and had the probe been delivered in September, it would have easily been cleared before mid-2015', says Dr Tamilmani . He also says that adding the probe itself and flying it is not an issue since it has already been integrated on the hi-fidelity Tejas simulator developed by DRDO's Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and has even been flown by test-pilots on it.

Now the new quartz nose cone supplied by Cobham replaces an indigenous one and is expected to help the Mk-I's multi-mode radar (MMR) (which has an indigenous antenna and scanner but an Elta EL/M-2032 processing back end) achieve 60 per cent more range than with the latter. The indigenous nose cone has of course already been fully qualified for all modes of the MMR but the current loss through this composite part limits the MMR's detection range to around 50 kms for a fighter sized target and this is expected to increase to more than 80 kms with the new quartz nose cone.

According to Dr Tamilmani, the first nose cone that Cobham made 'had problems' with appreciable losses which led them to making a second cone that is still undergoing structural load tests in the UK. This second nose cone will be supplied to India only in February 2015 and besides spot checks some 50 sorties will have to be flown to qualify this new nose cone. Though three Tejas flight vehicles outfitted with the MMR are ready to receive the new quartz nose cones, the delivery schedule is staggered with the remaining two being delivered at an interval of a month each after the first one. So as per Dr Tamilmani, there are no technological issues deferring FOC but merely process related ones subject to the vagaries of the foreign supplier for the two aforesaid parts.

Now while the Tejas Mk-I does boast many frontline technologies, its aerodynamic performance unfortunately cannot meet the 1995 ASR in its entirety. Truth be told the ASR agreed upon by ADA at the time would in any event have been difficult for the Mk-I to achieve in its current state with or without canards. This is perhaps a reason why only forty units of the Tejas Mk-I fighter version have been ordered till date by the IAF. An order for 16 units of the type trainer developed for the Mk-I are also expected from the IAF, with the definitive configuration for it taking to the air last month in the form of PV-6. The IAF has also had concerns about the Mk-I's turn-around time and wanted certain modifications not all of which could be executed on the Mk-I design which has obviously been frozen ages ago. Over the years there were also additional requirements raised by the IAF to keep the aircraft contemporary which included things like the integration of a supersonic drop tank and these were met according to Dr Tamilmani. Anyway concerns about maintenance apart, the Mk-I has shown its reliability by flying up to three sorties on a single day during trials in both Leh and Jaisalmer on several occasions.

More Mk-I orders are therefore not ruled out since at the end of the day the Tejas Mk-I is superior to Mig-21s of any vintage flying with the IAF today, some of which are expected to serve into the early 2020s. Moreover the Tejas Mk-I acquitted itself exceedingly well during Iron Fist (IF) 2013 with its deployed weapons being bang on target during that demonstration, a fact that is often missed by commentators in India. In a single sortie during IF-2013, the Mk-I demonstrated air-to-air capability by firing a R-73E missile and air-to-ground capability by dropping laser guided bombs (LGBs) directed by a LITENING pod carried on one of its pylons.

Enter the tejas Mk-II

To address the IAF's 1995 ASR fully, work is now underway on the Tejas Mk-II which will sport a new and more powerful engine in the form of General Electric's (GE's) 98 kilo newton generating F414-GE-INS6 , 99 units of which have already been ordered. The F414-GE-INS6 replaces the current MK-I engine which is the F404-GE-IN20. Contrary to earlier speculation, Dr Tamilmani says that the Tejas Mk-II does not require an intake re-design since the MK-I intake was in any case intended to be used with the Kaveri engine which has a greater mass flow than the current F404-GE-IN20 . Studies have shown that the existing intake can easily handle the additional mass flow from the F414-GE-INS6.

Together with the IAF, ADA has also introduced what Dr Tamilmani terms a 'weight reduction approach' and as per him some 350 kgs have already been shaved off the Mk-II design with a reduction of 500 kgs being the ultimate goal vis a vis the baseline Mk-I design. The Mk-II design is also expected to achieve a 5 percent improvement in drag characteristics through 'production improvements' related to further streamlining (reduced contour variations etc) of the Mk-I airframe.

All these changes are expected to increase the aerodynamic performance of the Tejas design sufficiently to be very close to meeting all ASR parameters according to Dr Tamilmani. The IAF is fully cognizant of this and is now fully integrated with the LCA program. 'The IAF has positioned 23 officers to support our program', says Dr Tamilmani. 'They also have 30 airmen on the tarmac to prepare the aircraft', he adds.

The Mk-II design will specifically address the sustained turn rate (STR), climb rate and transonic acceleration shortfalls of the Mk-I. The ASR requires a STR of 18 degrees (same as the F-16's) and Mk-II will close in on that. The climb rate will also be more or less satisfactorily reached. Transonic acceleration is expected to be realized fully. Moreover the Mk-II airframe will certainly be able to reach and fly through Mach 1.8 in a dive.

The Mk-II is also likely to sport an indigenously developed active electronically scanned array (AESA) fire control radar currently under development by DRDO's Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) under Project Uttam. Hardware has already been realized for this radar which has a range of 100 km and rooftop testing is underway. Apparently December 2015 has been set as a time for both DRDO & the IAF to take stock of the maturity of this radar since the IAF wants clarity on the radar front for the Tejas Mk-II. Though the Uttam AESA currently weighs 120 kgs which is some 40 kgs more than the current MMR, there will be no problem in integrating it with the Mk-II which can easily carry a radar of this weight. So if the end-2015 stock taking exercise satisfies all stake holders, Mk-II will definitely feature LRDE's AESA once it completes development. In fact this radar if successful is also intended as an upgrade package for the IAF's Jaguars and Mig-29s and the Indian Navy's (IN's) Mig 29Ks.

Today neither ADA nor the IAF want to jump headlong into the Israeli offer on the EL/M-2052 for the Mk-II especially since Project Uttam is progressing quite well and LRDE is confident that it will be able to deliver a good product within the stipulated time frame. Specifically LRDE's successful development of an airborne AESA used by DRDO's AEW&C aircraft, two of which are being inducted into the IAF has enabled it to master look down modes for the Uttam AESA as well. Dr Tamilmani says that he is taking monthly reviews of this radar and firmly believes that it will succeed. The Mk-II will also see the incorporation of a new on-board electronic warfare suite which is being jointly developed with the Israelis.

The glass cockpit for the Mk-II is going to be new as well. For one it is going to feature bigger 8 x 12 inch displays rather than the 5 x 5 and 6 x 6 inch displays currently featured in the MK-I cockpit. A prototype of the Mk-II cockpit already exists. While the initial lot of MK-II displays will be imported, in the future Samtel will supply indigenously developed ones.

Now, the 'Inboard' i.e the complete layout for the Mk-II has been is frozen. The Mk-II will have some 25-30 percent commonality in parts with the MK-I and these parts (i.e not requiring any modification) are already in production. For the MK-I parts that have to be modified, thousands of new drawings are being worked upon jointly by DRDO-HAL and the private sector. According to Dr Tamil Mani 'The final Mk-II drawings will be completed by December 2015.'

The IAF wants the first flight of the prototype to happen by 2017, but Dr Tamilmani says that given the extensive instrumentation and system check out requirements, it could be that first flight spills over into 2018. A total of four test vehicles will be built and all of these will be of production standard. At least three of these at a minimum will be in airborne testing before the end of 2019 and FOC is likely to be achieved in another 2-2.5 years from then.

Make it modular, make it in India

The issue however is not merely of developing a Tejas variant that can meet the 1995 ASR. It is also of producing the aircraft quickly and in numbers. As we can see HAL's current production line for the Mk-I isn't exactly the world's fastest. HAL of course points to the low number of orders for the MK-I to account for the current nature of its production line. While this is not an invalid argument per se, the fact is that HAL is also currently building a lot of the components for the MK-I in-house and still hasn't managed to outsource enough of the production to suppliers.

So a parallel effort aimed at the modularization of the Mk-II design is under way with appropriate interfaces being defined with the help of companies such as HCL. According to Dr Tamilmani, 'The idea is to 'terminate' things like electrical looms, hydraulic pipes, fuel line pipes etc. at the module level which can then be connected with other such modules.' These modules will then be outsourced with HAL assuming a lead integrator role for a number of downstream private suppliers who will build modular parts to specification. HAL would naturally retain its role in instrumentation and flight testing. This is the practise now in the civil aviation industry in the West and even for their fighter programs. The aircraft level original equipment maker (OEM) thereby ceases to be a wholesale producer but becomes a systems integrator leveraging economies of scale and finding it easier to enforce quality control.

Speeding up the production process for the Mk-I with better quality control will certainly be important because it is going to be ordered in much greater numbers than the Mk-I as is evidenced by the existing purchase of 99 GE F414 engines. Then there is also a 56 unit order from the IN for a navalized version of the MK-II. The IN incidentally has already put up money for a total of four naval prototypes NP-1 to NP-4.

According to Dr Tamilmani, if a completely debugged Mk-II can be delivered by HAL, domestic orders alone are likely to climb to many hundreds, since the entire Mig-21 and 27 pool would need to be replaced and there will certainly be a focus on exports. Already South-East Asian countries have been making serious enquiries about the HAL Tejas program and a well -developed Mk-II is likely to find favour in these markets.

Of course exporting the Tejas Mk-II would mean having an arrangement with GE for the engine since an indigenous engine to power Tejas variants is currently not available given that the Kaveri program could not deliver a usable low-bypass turbofan for that purpose. Through its lifetime any single engined fighter needs about 3.5 engines. So domestic orders alone, are going to drive demand for GE engines into the thousands not to mention potential exports.

The time has therefore come to lean upon GE to set up a turbofan production facility in India to meet both domestic as well as export requirements. This would very much be in keeping with 'make in India' whereby FDI for a sub-system such as an aircraft engine facilitates Indian fighter exports. Indeed it will be quite ironical that while China & Pakistan will market their JF-17 fighter powered by a Russian turbofan in Latin American and African countries, India could end up offering the Tejas with an American origin engine but 'made in India'.

member_19648
BRFite
Posts: 265
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_19648 » 21 Dec 2014 09:40

LCA Navy creates history in Goa; India joins a superelite club

http://www.oneindia.com/india/lca-navy-creates-history-in-goa-india-joins-a-superelite-club-1598768.html

Bengaluru, Dec 20: India on Saturday created a slice of naval history when the first home-grown naval jet Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Naval Protytype-1 (NP-1), a trainer, took off from the Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) at INS Hans in Goa for the first time. As reported by OneIndia recently, the NP-1 was piloted by Cmde Jaideep Maolankar, Chief Test Pilot of National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) situated in Bengaluru. The SBTF replicates a static model of the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) being built at the Cochin Shipyard in Kerala. The aircraft undertook the ski-jump (take-off) 300 meters away from the ramp - having a curved upward shape at one end. The telemetry feed of the crucial trial was also available at NFTC, which was closely monitored by an expert team.

Sources who witnessed the NP-1 event at SBTF told OneIndia that the aircraft accelerated more than expected. "We were hoping for a 150 knot safe fly away at a climb rate of 6.4 degrees. But, the aircraft had a higher acceleration with a climb rate of around 11 degrees, which showcased the confidence of the pilot on the platform," an official said. Naval history created, says DRDO D-G Dr K Tamilmani, one of the visible faces of DRDO and its Director-General (Aero) told OneIndia that NP1 smooth take-off during the first attempt itself will give a huge boost to the programme. "There have been delays which are justifiable if you have tracked the programme from close quarters. We were dating complex technologies and NP-1 scripted naval history at INS Hansa," Dr Tamilmani said. He said as part of the current campaign, NP-1 will have five more tests at SBTF (only ski-jumps) to meet all mission parameters. "Based on the test points achieved, we will schedule the next leg of trials. The aircraft will undertake ski-jumps 90 meters from the ramp, with all weapon stores in place," Dr Tamilmani added.

Sources who witnessed the NP-1 event at SBTF told OneIndia that the aircraft accelerated more than expected. "We were hoping for a 150 knot safe fly away at a climb rate of 6.4 degrees. But, the aircraft had a higher acceleration with a climb rate of around 11 degrees, which showcased the confidence of the pilot on the platform," an official said. Naval history created, says DRDO D-G Dr K Tamilmani, one of the visible faces of DRDO and its Director-General (Aero) told OneIndia that NP1 smooth take-off during the first attempt itself will give a huge boost to the programme. "There have been delays which are justifiable if you have tracked the programme from close quarters. We were dating complex technologies and NP-1 scripted naval history at INS Hansa," Dr Tamilmani said. He said as part of the current campaign, NP-1 will have five more tests at SBTF (only ski-jumps) to meet all mission parameters. "Based on the test points achieved, we will schedule the next leg of trials. The aircraft will undertake ski-jumps 90 meters from the ramp, with all weapon stores in place," Dr Tamilmani added.

"The launch of NP-1 from the SBTF is a historic event. It also shows the faith the Navy has reposed in this indigenous development programme. This event would provide an impetus towards timely achievement of future milestones," Rear Admiral Sudan said. We predicted the behavior of the aircraft: ADA Chief P S Subramanyam, Director, Aeronautical Development Agency, told OneIndia from Goa that it was a ‘text-book style' launch of NP-1 at SBTF. "India has become only the third country in the world (after US and Ukraine) to have carried out such a launch. This technology is only available to a few nations. We were able to predict the behaviour of the aircraft during the entry on the ramp, while on the ramp and after its exit," he said. He said Saturday's mission was a well-orchestrated one with many agencies involved. He said the NP-1 did not have an arrester hook fitted on it. "The arrester-hook landing is not a critical test as ski-jump. Today what we have achieved will be remembered for a long to come," Subramanyam said. Our Take | OneIndia * All the stake-holders need to be patted on their back for this stupendous achievement. * The successful completion of the critical nature of the mission at first attempt itself should further boost the confidence of the user on the programme. * The Navy has been backing this programme to the hilt, which gave the ADA-HAL-NFTC combine to undertake ski-jump more confidently. User support sans any conditions important for desi programmes to flourish. * The NP-2 should join the flight-line at the earliest which should help catch-up with some of the lost time.

Asit P
BRFite
Posts: 311
Joined: 14 May 2009 02:33

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Asit P » 21 Dec 2014 10:06

Quoting from Saurav Jha's article:
With reference to the 1995 ASR, the Mk-I has already exceeded the angle of attack (AoA) requirement of 24 degrees, by some two degrees (i.e it has achieved 26 degrees), which is highly commendable and comparable to the best that the Mirage 2000 could do. This could even be increased to 28 degrees in the future.

Any idea as to when did this happen? I was under the impression that so far it is 24 degrees.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1614
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Thakur_B » 21 Dec 2014 10:13

Asit P wrote:Quoting from Saurav Jha's article:
With reference to the 1995 ASR, the Mk-I has already exceeded the angle of attack (AoA) requirement of 24 degrees, by some two degrees (i.e it has achieved 26 degrees), which is highly commendable and comparable to the best that the Mirage 2000 could do. This could even be increased to 28 degrees in the future.

Any idea as to when did this happen? I was under the impression that so far it is 24 degrees.


Few months back.

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2014/10/tejas-production-variant-makes-maiden.html

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36405
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SaiK » 21 Dec 2014 10:29

going by the nose job problems, we are still far away from stealth technology then.. skins and design needs as much important focus as kaveri next gen now.

btw, from twitter
Image

Hobbes
BRFite
Posts: 219
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 02:59

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Hobbes » 21 Dec 2014 10:43

Looks like the IAF has finally bought into the Tejas and are fully on board with the program.

member_27581
BRFite
Posts: 230
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby member_27581 » 21 Dec 2014 10:51

Was delighted seeing this in today's newspaper. But it could be singing to a new make in india tune by the IAF. Either ways it will be good for the program!

SaiK wrote:going by the nose job problems, we are still far away from stealth technology then.. skins and design needs as much important focus as kaveri next gen now.

btw, from twitter
Image

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20517
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Philip » 21 Dec 2014 12:17

"IAF's 1995 ASR..." to be achieved with Mk-2.That's two decades on.A simple Q,no disrespect whatsoever to the tireless ones trying to bring the 3+ decade old programme to success,but can the 20 yr. old ASR still be valid in the age of stealth birds? There's still a huge way to go before the LCA can be judged to be a success.Series prod. of the MK-2 will not emerge before 2020 and at that time we will have a proliferation of enemy stealth aircraft coming off their prod. lines.
The LCA programme however does have great potential if we leapfrog old ASRs and consider a lightweight stealth version based upon the experience achieved thus far. We've tackled composites quite well and with conformal radars,sensors etc. arriving with the FGFA JV,use whatever is available right now to put into place asap a stealth version of Tejas.The Chinese appear to be doing just that.Getting their aircraft flying and into service asap ,refining their capabilities later on.
Tejas stealth would be achieved much faster than a 15 yr. programme for an all new AMCA which would be the next step after LCA-S.LCA-S would have good export potential too.

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 1077
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby shaun » 21 Dec 2014 12:45

are you suggesting replacing Mig-21 with stealth a/c ??? . The "lost decades" that we had in out aviation history is not some thing that can be fixed double quick until and unless we work tirelessly to bring the LCA program to its logical conclusion. Like the missile program , only LCA can ensure us the capability and it will act as a catalyst for our future fighter programs . F-16 is still considered the best a/c ever made till date and if we can achieve those parameters in our own LCA it will be more than a match to what ever pigs and lizards throw at us. To counter VLO a/c we have our own efforts going on with other platforms and for that we don't have to sacrifice our LCA .

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20517
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Philip » 21 Dec 2014 13:29

I'm suggesting that we look beyond the ASR of 20 yrs. ago and leapfrog the LCA programme beyond Mk-1/2 into a stealth version.The world's air forces are all looking beyond the F-16 era and are examining new replacements from the F-35,4++ Eurocanards and are in Asia developing their own strike fighters with stealth capability.The thought is to equip an LCA modified design with as much stealth features as is possible,an achievable target not raising the bar inordinately high,but improving capability sa much as possible,instead of a brand new programme.Saving time and money,leveraging whatever we are getting with the FGFA JV and our own capability.A stepping stone to the future AMCA which will take time to evolve and emerge.The main problem I envisage is the amt. of weaponry that can be carried internally,where twin-engined stealth aircraft use the space between the engines for internal carriage. If the LCA-S can carry 4 AAMs,2 BVR and 2 SRAAMs in internal wing bays,plus a cannon,they could be very useful if acquired in large numbers.

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 1077
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby shaun » 21 Dec 2014 14:22

Sir , can you enlighten us , how this suggestion of yours to "leapfrog the LCA programme beyond Mk-1/2 in to a stealth version " can be achieved ??
Our aerospace entities will be matured enough to come up with VLO a/c only when LCA in its present and future avatar are in significant numbers with IAF. Until then we have to work with Russian VLO platform customize to our needs in order to nullify the chini stealthy threats starting ,next decade.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1660
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby Khalsa » 21 Dec 2014 15:06

How Canada Built........ How Canada destroyed

the ARROW (tejas)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PMnlnqRex4

one of the key Kaveri moments is at 52 minutes

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36405
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SaiK » 21 Dec 2014 19:38

^good pointer there khalsa ji! btw, destruction is easy! as easy as being lazy.

kaveri next gen must happen. we need to only re-org the boys.

maz
Webmaster BR
Posts: 348
Joined: 03 Dec 2000 12:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby maz » 21 Dec 2014 19:40

I do not know if the below link - a round table discussion on the LCA - has been posted here earlier but here it is:

http://www.stratpost.com/video-vayu-str ... undtable-v

There are six videos in all - all of them with very useful insights

http://www.stratpost.com/video-vayu-str ... undtable-i
http://www.stratpost.com/video-vayu-str ... ndtable-ii
http://www.stratpost.com/video-vayu-str ... dtable-iii
http://www.stratpost.com/video-vayu-str ... ndtable-iv
http://www.stratpost.com/video-vayu-str ... undtable-v
http://www.stratpost.com/video-vayu-str ... ndtable-vi

The stark reality is that all is not so well with the IAF-HAL-ADA aircraft design and acquisition process. Another key point is active involvement of the IAF or lack thereof in the design and development process of the LCA from the earliest stages. Unlike the Navy, which is sinking money into the LCA Navy program, the IAF, according to these videos, has not done so. If the IAF were to take ownership of the project, perhaps it would not be the mess it is.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36405
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SaiK » 21 Dec 2014 19:49

^maz, excellent links/ make them more explicit


SanjayC
BRFite
Posts: 1557
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SanjayC » 21 Dec 2014 19:55

Philip wrote:I'm suggesting that we look beyond the ASR of 20 yrs. ago and leapfrog the LCA programme beyond Mk-1/2 into a stealth version.


Flights of fancy have to be grounded in reality. How can we "leapfrog" into stealth when even making an ordinary 4th generation aircraft has been such a struggle for 25 years? The technology base and manpower are still in nascent stages. They will take time to mature. Let's first become an expert in 4th generation fighters before "leapfrogging into the future" otherwise it is just a wild goose chase, bird in hand being better than two in the bush, etc. Currently, home-grown 4th generation fighters are more than enough to handle Pakistani crappy air force. For China, we have Russian / western imports.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36405
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SaiK » 21 Dec 2014 20:08

Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran! Accurate and Precise on bulls eye!


deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3933
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby deejay » 21 Dec 2014 21:25

^^^ With due respect to A M (Retd) Mathesaran, the problem IMO, is in inter agency blame game and never taking ownership. A M (Retd) Mathesaran may be right but continuously blaming the other guys does not solve the problem. I have said this before and I repeat - at StratPost roundtable and his two part article on StratPost he is blaming the 'other guys'. I am sure 'other guys' can fault the IAF equally.

It is time that IAF, HAL, DRDO and all its associated labs started working as 'We'. I would have found the retired Air Marshal's view more palatable if he could transcend barriers and look at LCA as an Indian effort where the IAF gets to use the LCA not only as a 'User' but as 'Users' who have a stake in the future of the aircraft, perhaps like the IN does it.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36405
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby SaiK » 21 Dec 2014 21:42

i'm viewing it as constructive. it will become blame if it stays at finger pointing. we have to do something about it! else it is a national shame. i think we all agree, that the problems must be resolved and not shelved like many politicians of the past are thinking. nothing wrong in studying approaches taken by usaf, although down scaled.

systemic approach will resolve this problem, not now, but definitely in future.
Last edited by SaiK on 21 Dec 2014 21:56, edited 1 time in total.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16518
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Postby NRao » 21 Dec 2014 21:45

It is time that IAF, HAL, DRDO and all its associated labs started working as 'We'.


IIRC the current RM has suggested some sort of an apex agency to oversee much of the activities - short and long term. So, I woudl expect all this would be sorted out. Will need to give it some time.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests