LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 17 Dec 2014 16:27

AMCA has entered project definition phase. Six engine OEMs are being evaluated. RFP for engine will be issued in 2015.

AMCA will be powered by two 110 KN class engines.

Indigenous turbofan development continues. Kaveri project itself wraps up as a TD. But the new programme is already underway.

The Indian Air force wants the LCA MK-II time table brought forward. They are fully integrated with the program.

IAF fully supports the AMCA program also. And is basically running the UCAV program.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 17 Dec 2014 17:16

^^^ SJha seems to be polite to the IAF for a change. But good news and good tidings from SJha.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 17 Dec 2014 17:52

IAF support to LCA MK-2 is similar to love of army for Arjun MK-2 or better Nag. It is to kill the MK-1 while pretending to support MK-2.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 17 Dec 2014 23:08

^ Appendages follow what the head commands. Now that we have replaced the Import head with an Indian head, rest of the machinery is singing a different tune. Will be interesting to see if this is for real or just biding time until next election.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Dec 2014 10:39

Gyan wrote:IAF support to LCA MK-2 is similar to love of army for Arjun MK-2 or better Nag. It is to kill the MK-1 while pretending to support MK-2.

You have inside track on things on ground or is it just another rant? And what exactly do you mean by 'kill Mk-1'?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 18 Dec 2014 11:32

Rohit, you do understand the post. Yet you chose to pose your question.

When history repeats itself and we fail to act, that could lead to our downfall. In the case of the Arjun, the IA chose to ignore a perfectly capable homegrown weapon system that performed very well in its own comparative trials with the its future mainstay, yet the IA ordered only 124 Mk1s and punted for a MK2. The same is happening with the LCA Mk1. By not ordering a proven system in numbers, and showing interest in an unproven system, the IAF is showing its intentions - order the MMRCA Rafale in place of the LCA.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Dec 2014 12:52

Vivek K wrote:Rohit, you do understand the post. Yet you chose to pose your question.

When history repeats itself and we fail to act, that could lead to our downfall. In the case of the Arjun, the IA chose to ignore a perfectly capable homegrown weapon system that performed very well in its own comparative trials with the its future mainstay, yet the IA ordered only 124 Mk1s and punted for a MK2. The same is happening with the LCA Mk1. By not ordering a proven system in numbers, and showing interest in an unproven system, the IAF is showing its intentions - order the MMRCA Rafale in place of the LCA.

Yes, I understand what he meant in that post and I think it is nothing but complete rubbish.

And that is what I intend to bring out - which instead of him, you've done. Basically, the moment things are not going on/happening as per what you think is OK, there has to be a conspiracy theory. And the big bad <IAF/IA> is killing the domestic product.

Just because you've a opinion, it does not mean it is the TRUTH which everyone needs to accept.

sumits · Post by **sumits** » 18 Dec 2014 21:07

rohitvats wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Rohit, you do understand the post. Yet you chose to pose your question.

When history repeats itself and we fail to act, that could lead to our downfall. In the case of the Arjun, the IA chose to ignore a perfectly capable homegrown weapon system that performed very well in its own comparative trials with the its future mainstay, yet the IA ordered only 124 Mk1s and punted for a MK2. The same is happening with the LCA Mk1. By not ordering a proven system in numbers, and showing interest in an unproven system, the IAF is showing its intentions - order the MMRCA Rafale in place of the LCA.
Yes, I understand what he meant in that post and I think it is nothing but complete rubbish.

And that is what I intend to bring out - which instead of him, you've done. Basically, the moment things are not going on/happening as per what you think is OK, there has to be a conspiracy theory. And the big bad <IAF/IA> is killing the domestic product.

Just because you've a opinion, it does not mean it is the TRUTH which everyone needs to accept.

Rohit, nobody said that everyone has to accept his opinion. But he his entitled to his opinion just as much as you are to yours.
Although, I must say he is basing his opinion on historical data that shows that how some genuine domestic products that have performed at-par/better than the imported products have been held to a much higher standard and have been stuck in never-ending cycles of testing and feature requests.

All you said was that his opinion was "nothing but complete rubbish".

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 18 Dec 2014 22:00

rohitvats wrote:You have inside track on things on ground or is it just another rant? And what exactly do you mean by 'kill Mk-1'?

The Arjun production line at Avadi is currently dormant, a situation that could have been avoided if the Army had made an effort. And the Mk2 may never have had a future without the Mk1 exceling when pitted against the T-90; the Army in turn was loathe to even carry out the comparative trials, arguably doing so only due to DRDO & MoD pressure.

Arjun In Present Form Can Never Be Our MBT, 2 More Regiments Possible (But the T-90 is good enough despite conking out in the desert heat.)

Same scenario with the Tejas Mk1 as well, a piddly 40 orders placed. The line will inevitably run out of orders and then be mothballed until the Mk2 IOCes (which will happen no earlier than 2020). The IAF can course-correct, but probably wouldn't. The only silver-lining is that the navy's support is strong.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 18 Dec 2014 22:39

I agree with Vivek, IA/IAF want the latest and greatest without much effort. There is a lack of long term vision and a very short term user mentality in all their dealings.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 18 Dec 2014 23:10

though it's a lca thread, I think for Arjun to be in significant numbers with IA, it needs a push which can only come if US gift pigs some Abrams!! now ducking for cover...

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 18 Dec 2014 23:34

Just an observation -

LCA Tejas development cost is a meagre 7,500 crores from above post, about 5% of Rafale purchase of 120,000 crores.

It begs the question - Why in the world are we not willing to invest 5% - 10 years before a need arises instead of resorting to imports like banana republics. This central planning process is a failure x million times in any direction (avoiding the stu**dity word) - what a waste of resources. Even if the project fails, it's still a low cost hedge @ 5% cost. If the project works out then we get 2~3x the units for same price and can export to earn $$$.

Rant On
Painful when you put it in perspective - 20 billion $ will be same as employing 60 million or 6% of working Indians for a FULL YEAR @ a dollar a day. Assuming single earner family, it will still support 100+ million Indians for a FULL YEAR > 10% of our Population.
Rant OFF

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Dec 2014 01:05

Lack of direction, little open source and the internet = gossip, speculation and divergent point of views. Bound to happen (especially on the net).

However, something that should have happened 60 years ago is happening in 2014 (2015).

Aerospace industry body pushes to accelerate 'Make in India'

The newly-formed Confederation of India Industry’s National Committee on Aerospace (CIINCA), under the Chairmanship of R K Tyagi, Chairman, HAL, deliberated on various strategies for the aerospace sector in its second meeting on Thursday.

With the increasing focus on achieving self-reliance in defence, some of the key issues put forth during the maiden meeting such as strategy on import substitution, proposal on taxation, collaboration with foreign OEMs, developing supply chain, promoting Indian tier-1, tier-2 companies and SMEs through structured programmes were discussed further by the leaders from national and international companies like SAAB India, Safran India, Mahindra Aerospace, Raytheon, Maini Aerospace, Rolls-Royce India and more

In about 15-20 years from now we can expect some semblance of overall stability.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Dec 2014 04:50

how many firang cos will be interested in make in india? even say, they retain IPRs?
IMHO, not all products are created equal.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Dec 2014 19:14

From Twitter:

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake
#BreakingNews Def Min @manoharparrikar tells Lok Sabha that Tejas SP-2 will fly by March 2015. FOC by Dec 2015.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 19 Dec 2014 19:22

rohitvats wrote:From Twitter:

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake
#BreakingNews Def Min @manoharparrikar tells Lok Sabha that Tejas SP-2 will fly by March 2015. FOC by Dec 2015.

What happened to June FOC, hain-ji

?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 19 Dec 2014 19:29

Thakur_B wrote:
What happened to June FOC, hain-ji ?

... but I thought it was March!!!

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 19 Dec 2014 19:44

deejay wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:
What happened to June FOC, hain-ji ?
... but I thought it was March!!!

For a while everyone thought it was march 2012

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Dec 2014 21:15

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 20m 20 minutes ago

Delay in FOC is due to Cobham not delivering either the IFR probe or the quartz noze cone this year.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 21m 21 minutes ago

Both will be delivered by March 2015 after which each will quite a few certification flights. IAF teams have been sent to London.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 19 Dec 2014 21:35

Cobham had issues fitting the probe in the confines of Tejas.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 19 Dec 2014 22:19

pankajs wrote:
Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 20m 20 minutes ago

Delay in FOC is due to Cobham not delivering either the IFR probe or the quartz noze cone this year.

IIRC indigenous quartz nose is under R&D so in future britshits won't be able to cause delay and to make Tejas more immune we must take indigenization of IFR probe as well. Engine still remains our achilles heel though.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 20 Dec 2014 05:08

Posting in full

32 years on, IAF to get Tejas fighters in March

NEW DELHI: Thirty-two years after the light combat aircraft (LCA) project was sanctioned, IAF will finally get its first home-grown Tejas fighter in March 2015. But before you pop the bubbly, consider this: the multi-role jet is now ready to fly in all-weather conditions but cannot yet fire long-range missiles as well as undergo mid-air refuelling to double its strike range.

The first Tejas will be delivered to IAF at Bangalore in its initial operational clearance (IOC) configuration, which basically means it's fully airworthy now. But the fighter's final operational clearance (FOC) to make it combat-ready — with integration of all weapons like guns, laser-guided bombs and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles as well capable of air-to-air refuelling — has once again been delayed.

The Tejas Mark-II, the fighter IAF really wants with more powerful engines for greater thrust and drag reduction, will start to come only by 2021-2022. With the first preliminary design review for the Mark-II version now over, the plan is to fly its first prototype by 2017 or so.

"The first of IOC standard aircraft has been built and successfully completed its maiden flight on September 30 this year. This aircraft will be handed over to IAF by March 2015 after some upgrades," defence minister Manohar Parrikar told Lok Sabha on Friday.

"The second aircraft will also be ready by March 2015 for its maiden flight. The first 20 aircraft will be built by 2017-2018...FOC is likely to be achieved by end of 2015," he added.

The delivery of the first Tejas will certainly be a red-letter day in the project's meandering saga, with even IAF now confident of the lightweight fighter. "The handling of Tejas and other features are much better than a MiG-21 Bison. But the long delay is the problem," said an officer.

The first Tejas squadron of 20 jets in the IOC configuration will initially be based in Bangalore to resolve teething problems. It will later be shifted to the Sulur airbase in Tamil Nadu, which will also get the second squadron in FOC configuration.

Work is now underway to accelerate the development of the Tejas Mark-II, including airframe changes to take the new American GE-414 engines, which will constitute four squadrons with 80 jets. The first 40 Tejas are to be powered by GE-404 engines.

IAF has been forced to extend the operational life of virtually obsolete MiG-21s, which will now be retired only by 2025, due to the huge delay in the LCA project. The Tejas will meet the lightweight fighter requirements of IAF, which is down to just 34 fighter squadrons, while the heavyweight one is being taken care of by the 272 Russian Sukhoi-30MKIs being inducted for $12 billion. The medium range is to be met by the yet-to-be finalised $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 20 Dec 2014 07:23

^^^ This Pandit dude has a strategy of reporting positive developments in Indian defence manufacturing in a negative way.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Dec 2014 07:38

don't blame him alone.. you give 32 years to the whole of DDM gang out there, they can't produce even a quality PoS (piece of $h!t)! it is that sad state of affairs of our media elites.

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 20 Dec 2014 12:14

Anantha Krishnan M: #BreakingNews #NLCA #NPI completes first ski-jump successfully from SBTF.
https://twitter.com/writetake/status/546204855077842944

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Dec 2014 12:17

Waiting for photus.

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 20 Dec 2014 12:34

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 20 Dec 2014 13:09

Goddamn she is pretty

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 20 Dec 2014 13:47

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 20 Dec 2014 13:49

Where is the lungi dance icon?? Fly Navy!!!

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 20 Dec 2014 14:34

Can someone knowledgeable note the importance of the NP1 test? Isnt it supposed to be easier than flat takeoff run of same length? There is not hook yet, so what is the progress here?

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 20 Dec 2014 14:35

Thakur_B wrote:

when using youtube tags, only need the videoid, not the whole link. Otherwise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_05SFUiFmc

although the tag doesnt seem to quite work in my browser either way.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 20 Dec 2014 15:45

That's a rather long run! I guess they plan to progressively reduce the run-up before delivering the ball.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 20 Dec 2014 17:03

Another video

Link

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 20 Dec 2014 20:14

It seems that afterburner was not used while taking off. Shows very high level of confidence.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 20 Dec 2014 21:25

That was probably because of the longer run on take off. On a ship's short runway, they would need the afterburners. I expect to see them to be on when they reduce the take off length in future tests. The real test would the arrested landing - hope to see that soon.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 20 Dec 2014 21:40

Saurav Jha's new blog post on LCA Tejas with some good perspectives:

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... india.html

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 20 Dec 2014 22:08

^^^^^^^^^^^
quote from the above article link

According to Dr Tamilmani, if a completely debugged Mk-II can be delivered by HAL, domestic orders alone are likely to climb to many hundreds, since the entire Mig-21 and 27 pool would need to be replaced and there will certainly be a focus on exports.

however the only concern seems to be the timeline related to Tejas MK.2 FOC : 2022 seems at least 2 years late. Hope they speed up on this one and bring on a MK.2 FOC version by 2020.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 20 Dec 2014 22:48

I still feel that the IAF will order more FOC standard LCAs. The mk2 might be delayed some more and second, and the line will be left idle after the production of the first 40 birds. So another order of FOC standard will probably be on the cards, wish FOC was reached sooner - I was hoping by AeroIndia.

member_28730 · Post by **member_28730** » 20 Dec 2014 23:17

Admin, Good day to you, I have just become a member, can you please advise me if I am allowed to join in any of the threads.thanks