GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

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Varoon Shekhar
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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 14 Jan 2014 18:36

"Has ISRO ever worked with kerosene? It seems that Kerosene is a simpler fuel to work with than LOX/LH2."

I shouldn't know this, but I do :-). DRDO actually developed and tested, successfully, a Kerosene and Liquid Oxygen engine, with a thrust of about 3 tonnes. It was probably called "Valiant".

Read this somewhere in the early 90's, think it was the "Hindu" newspaper. Perhaps a Google search of "DRDO-Valiant" might give details.

member_28108
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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby member_28108 » 14 Jan 2014 19:03

In 1964, Flying Officer Gopalaswamy from IAF joined DRDL due to his interest in liquid propulsion. A dedicated scientist V Gopalan joined him in the pursuit.
100 Pound Engine
Their first experimental engine was a small LOX – Kerosene motor with a 100 pound thrust. In process they created a host of infrastructure for development and testing liquid engines.
In early 1970’s DRDL developed first liquid propulsion engine of about 900 kg thrust. Another sophisticated 3 – tonne liquid propelled engine was successfully designed and flight tested in a period on 1971 to 1976. This engine had 150 seconds flight duration.
The experiences gained proved invaluable when a project eventually came up for the development of a 30000 kg thrust engine under “Project Valiant.”
Valiant Engine
A project to develop a multistage vehicle with intercontinental ranges came up. Having converged on a liquid propulsion system from system preliminary consideration, it appeared that a 30 – tonne Valiant engine will be for staging needs. The engine would have tubular wall engine chamber with turbine feed. The engine would be powered by Nitrogen tetraoxide and UDMH propellant combination, though the later was not available in India.
The Valiant engine tasks were taken on a project basis. A large “Vertical Engine Test” (VTF) facility was created by M/s Engineering India Limited. In 1974, the first Valiant Engine was tested in the facility to prove the entire infrastructure.
Project Devil
Project Devil was first serious attempt to make a Surface to Air missile. The sustainer engine was propelled by a liquid engine. This was a sophisticated piece of engineering during its time as it was regeneratively cooled by the propellant. The propellant was fed into combustion chamber by power driven turbine pumps. This turbo pump itself was driven by a separate monopropellant gas generator. The construction of the engine was entirely by stainless steel corresponding to AISI 304.

http://frontierindia.net/liquid-propuls ... pment-drdo
Last edited by member_28108 on 14 Jan 2014 19:33, edited 1 time in total.

Sagar G
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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby Sagar G » 14 Jan 2014 19:11

^^^ Did you write this or copied it from some place ????

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby member_28108 » 14 Jan 2014 19:32

Oops I Thought I had quoted the source. Will do.
Did it.

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby member_28417 » 16 Jan 2014 16:35

India must specify the Jan 5 launch (and future GSLV launches) as GSLV Mk 2 and not just GSLV.
This is only the second flight of Mk 2, while the other 6 GSLV flights (2 Success & 4 Failures) was that of GSLV Mk 1.
ISRO must now officially announce that the failure haunted GSLV Mk 1 vehicle will no longer be used
or that it is retired and must take it forward with Mk 2. The fact that the Mk 1 and Mk 2 are not the same must be clarified.
This will also reduce the burden of failures which were actually caused by GSLV Mk 1 which used a Russian Cryo stage
and give more confidense to foreign clients to use GSLV Mk 2 after a few more succcessfull launches.

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby A Sharma » 17 Jan 2014 19:17


vic
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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby vic » 17 Jan 2014 19:28

It seems GSLV Mark 2C is advanced version of GSLV Mark-2 and will also include PAM 4 engine. Anybody has more data about this variant?

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby symontk » 17 Jan 2014 19:40

PAM4 is for Human space flight, may or may not happen, most likely GSLV3 will be used

PAM4 is a special engine, which will separate the human capsule from the main launch vehicle in case of emergency


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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby symontk » 18 Jan 2014 08:35

Thanks Simha, I didn't knew about that, I believe PAM was mentioned in context of HSF

You learn new things in BR

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby vic » 18 Jan 2014 08:56

So I understand that dry weight that can be injected into GSO can be increase by use of PAM?

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby member_28108 » 18 Jan 2014 14:34

I do not think so. I believe that when PAM is used it can inject approx 900 Kg directly to Geosynchronous orbit.(Technically it is a "4th" stage which has to be lifted up too..
symontk what do you mean by HSF

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby vic » 18 Jan 2014 14:46

I think that the dry weight of GSAT-14 is only 851kg (Oribital weight??) So if the PAM equipped GSLV can directly inject 955kg into GSO then it might be a improvement (??)

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby symontk » 18 Jan 2014 16:29

HSF is Human Space flight

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby member_28108 » 18 Jan 2014 16:39

symontk wrote:HSF is Human Space flight
:D

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby member_28108 » 18 Jan 2014 16:41

Vic what would you do with a dry satellite in GSO it will slowly move out of position due to non earth perturbations from its position and will not have fuel for station housekeeping.

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby member_28108 » 18 Jan 2014 16:49

GSLV Mk.2 C 4 × L-40H / Vikas GS-1 / S-139 GS-2 (L-40H) / Vikas GS3 (CUS-15) / CE7.5 PAM-G

GSLV Mk.2C GEO 955Kgs

http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_lau/gslv.htm

http://www.ciidefence.com/world-biz-Pre ... rector.pdf
has a lot of information

The goal for PAM G is for Navigation satellites
Spacecraft mass: ~1400 kg
Orbit : 19140 km circular


GEO values
Period : 11 :15 : 40 hr direct injection
capability : 955 kg
Period : 11 :15 : 40 hr
Inclination : 64.8 deg

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby SSSalvi » 18 Jan 2014 21:13

Final station acquisition manoeuvre was successfully completed to place the GSAT 14 satellite in its designated orbital slot on Jan 18, 2014.

( From ISRO Fcebook )

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby arshyam » 18 Jan 2014 22:01

It's awesome to see the 'ho-hum' about a satellite entering the orbit. Not much in the media too. It shows how we have perfected this and has become routine news. Only the launcher commands an interest these days, and even here, PSLV launches have become routine.

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby member_28108 » 18 Jan 2014 22:03

Once it injected it in a correct path the rest is something we have mastered and becomes Ho hum :)

The major issues everytime will be different missions and goals.

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby SSridhar » 19 Jan 2014 07:22

GSAT-14 Reaches its Final Geostationary Home - The Hindu
M. Nageswara Rao, Project Director, GSAT-14, said on Saturday: “The satellite has reached its final orbit today at a height of 36,000 km and 74 degrees east longitude. The in-orbit testing committee will meet on Monday to decide when to switch on the satellite’s payloads. It will take 10 to 15 days after January 20 to make the satellite operational. It will be ready for use by February 5.”

The satellite carries 12 transponders and it will be useful for telecommunication, broadcasting television programmes, telemedicine and beaming tele-education programmes for college students.

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby akash_k » 23 Jan 2014 10:30

Image


Edit : image url
Last edited by akash_k on 24 Jan 2014 00:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby member_28108 » 23 Jan 2014 22:25

akash_k wrote:Image

Aksahs,no image shows up

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby wasu » 24 Jan 2014 16:21

Latest issue of frontline is out...Tons of Info.

http://www.frontline.in/cover-story/

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby rgosain » 24 Jan 2014 17:09

Thanks to Frontline for a very good informative and educational of the thermodynamics behind cryogenic propulsion. With the MK3 being slated for 4t payloads, where does this leave the gslv mk2 and its c7.5 engine in terms of further evolution.

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby Rahul M » 05 Feb 2014 12:24

better late than never !
happy end of a long wait ! congrats ISRO !


Manish Jain wrote:An odd bit in reddit AMA -

"[–]ISROredditors[S] 2 points 13 hours ago*

Our cryo is based on a Russian engine built in the 60s. Our real breakthrough will be the Cryo engine of MKIII"

Basically, they were saying that present cryo is outdated and MKIII cryo will be up to date. Hard to reconcile it with what we've been reading here.


here's the rejoinder :

ISROredditors wrote: [S] 5 points 26 days ago

Its largely an indigenous effort but we have learnt from the Russian experience where ever possible.

PS: One of us who has not worked in launch vehicles area answered some other cryo question here (about the Mk III engine being the next gen one and mkII cryo based on russian engine) and his answer was wrong. Just wanted to clarify it. I can't find that answer, so can't edit now. Just saw that the wrong answer being discussed on bharatrakshak :(

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby Rahul M » 05 Feb 2014 18:59

shankarovsky's co had a part to play as well.

http://issuu.com/gasworld/docs/up6ls3/6 ... %2F6585209

Varoon Shekhar
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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 05 Feb 2014 20:02

While the Frontline article particularly, and the Reddit answers were informative, there is still no article that I can see, that really tells the story in detail, of the engineering and manufacturing challenges involved in the cryogenic engine, and how they were surmounted. There is a mention of the change in the ignition sequence/method between the Indian engine and the Russian one, and some reference to developing indigenous polyamide pipes and a sensor from an older Fronline article in July-August. But what about the rest of the engine and stage- there must have been formidable challenges faced in manufacturing the turbo pump( 3 turbo pumps actually, the main plus 2 secondary), the various valves, regulators, combustion chamber, igniters, injectors, gas generator et al. The saga has not been fully told!

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby member_28108 » 05 Feb 2014 21:11

I doubt they will ever be told and publishged because that is a "secret".Most of these are just mentioned to indicate complexity but nothing beyond that.

Varoon Shekhar
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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 05 Feb 2014 21:26

I see, so there must be a concern that the information will be leaked out, and other countries(eg. Iran, Brazil, Israel, South Africa, South Korea) will use the information to build their own engines/stages, and India will be accused of proliferation of strategic information? I still think they can provide more details, without being overly technical or revealing trade secrets, about the challenges involved in developing the stage. Information for the lay public about what was the most difficult or nagging/frustrating issue, like the turbo pump and its seals and bearings et al. Not asking them to provide drawings or diagrams as to how they went about it.

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby member_28108 » 05 Feb 2014 21:41

Problem that I see Varoon is that the methodology for cryo bearings etc for the centrifugal pumps etc may be such an "Aha" moment that letting that cat out of the bag may be detrimental.Actually there is a lot of information per se out there regarding the technique etc of building a cryostage but the critical information like how the metal is "tempered" or what is the critical piece of information between success and failure are what makes the difference. It is like a nuclear bomb - the critical elements which are the "Aha" part are closely guarded for eg though we know the Teller Ullam design including what is used critical information on the signalling and sequence of triggering explosions are not released !

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Re: GSLV-D5 Launch status and post launch discussions

Postby member_28108 » 05 Feb 2014 21:49

Simple example is how centrifugal pump technology is very "open".I use these pumps in the cardiac OR but while the design is well known a small difference exists between the short term and medium term pumping units (for eg biomedicus versus Levitronix) and the difference is not so obvious though we have some idea about it but it si not easily reproducible.Same for cryocentrifugal pumps - data is out there but that critical "missing piece" is what is withheld :D
In fact I would like to really interact with centrifugal pump designers in IIT's etc as this became a direct offshoot of the space industry - ventricular assist devices.Dr Kalam was extremely interested in involving cardiac surgeons but became President and we lost access to him(He used to attend our conferenceeven as a president as a guest !!) but I contacted one Top Notch ex DRDO person whom we all know and was shocked at his bureaucratic Sarkari Babu politician type attitude and had to give up that route.
I am hoping either the IIT's or ISRO could help. NASA actually did a lot of work which helped develop VAD's but the cost is so much that it is not practical in India.


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