Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 13 Oct 2014 19:43

dinesha wrote:Nuclear-capable missile to be tested on October 17
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 74648.aspx

Nice to know that at least one test has been pushed forward! This was delayed to November, now it's October. Wish ISRO would pleasantly surprise us by sticking to announced launch dates!

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 13 Oct 2014 20:11

Indian Express is solidly sold out - time to rename the paper from Indian to FRENCH express! This is a national newspaper which is a shame and unbelievable.

Are the french thinking that India is one of their North African banana republic to roll us over and sell us this bul**hit? Repeatedly trying to rip us off reminds me of their imperial mindset.

This kind of news article needs serious investigation > either nail the reporter or the MoD official. Though I like renaming Indian Express to FRENCH express as a just and immediate fix.

srai wrote:France Extends Help to Expedite 'Maitri'
...

Contradicting the IAF claims, another MoD official said, “As far as I understand, there is no match between two missile systems. While the range of SRSAM will be of 40 km, Akash’s range is only 25 km. Moreover, the SRSAM will be much cheaper than Akash, if produced in India.”

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Oct 2014 20:42

nik wrote:Indian Express is solidly sold out - time to rename the paper from Indian to FRENCH express! This is a national newspaper which is a shame and unbelievable.

ALL papers and all TV channels will publicize anything that they are paid for.

Prostitutes have a code of honor in which they will not allow themselves to be used in certain ways. Not newspapers and the media.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 13 Oct 2014 21:05

srai wrote:France Extends Help to Expedite 'Maitri'
...

Contradicting the IAF claims, another MoD official said, “As far as I understand, there is no match between two missile systems. While the range of SRSAM will be of 40 km, Akash’s range is only 25 km. Moreover, the SRSAM will be much cheaper than Akash, if produced in India.”

So we have:
25Km Akash operational in large numbers
Akash Mk2 with 30-35km range in the works
MRSAM with 70Km range in the works

and some babu wants us to get another phoren maal in to the inventory, even though IAF doesn't want it !! Kya logic hain !

member_28722 · Post by **member_28722** » 13 Oct 2014 21:18

srai wrote:France Extends Help to Expedite 'Maitri'
...

Contradicting the IAF claims, another MoD official said, “As far as I understand, there is no match between two missile systems. While the range of SRSAM will be of 40 km, Akash’s range is only 25 km. Moreover, the SRSAM will be much cheaper than Akash, if produced in India.”

As for as we understand, France's Sky High hopes of making moolah are dashing down
Articles like this have come and will keep coming, part and parcel of having powerful arms lobbies in the country.
IG, IA, IAF will do what they want to do

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Oct 2014 21:41

Just goes to show how many such JVs were shoved down the throats of desi groups by powerful lobbies in the name of development etc.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Oct 2014 21:55

Maitri is an important development. It was supposed to fill up the last important gap in our missile development (the Trishul missile): a quick reaction short range SAM, the last layer of defense against aerial attacks. This class of missiles is required by all the three forces and cannot be replaced by Akash (at least for the Navy). Even for the Army and Airforce, it would be better to have more numerous and cheaper solid fueled missiles rather than the 720 kg behemoths that Akashes are. The layers are simple: LRSAM/MRSAM (upto 80 kms), Akash (up to 35 kms) and Maitri (up to 15 kms).

Make no mistake, if this deal falls through, you will see outright import for this class of missiles for at least the Army and the Navy (both sent RFIs in 2012). At best you, will see screwdriver-giri (full TOT) by a private entity. You have already seen the SOSNA deal.

Unfortunately, objective reporting is quickly becoming a thing of the past. The report does the opposite of what it set out to do. The babu has got it all wrong (with his 40 km range etc.) and the reporter did not even bother to check. What a disservice to the profession and the nation!

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 13 Oct 2014 22:04

^With Astra coming along well, there is no need for this gold plated shit that the french fries want to shove down our throats. Sufficient modifications can be made to Astra (adding booster, guidance etc.) and can be developed as a solid fueled SRSAM (I believe it has been done before).

koti · Post by **koti** » 13 Oct 2014 22:05

indranilroy wrote:
Unfortunately, objective reporting is quickly becoming a thing of the past. The report does the opposite of what it set out to do. The babu has got it all wrong (with his 40 km range etc.) and the reporter did not even bother to check. What a disservice to the profession and the nation!

Not just that, its cost cannot be lesser then Akash. It is to have an active seeker isn't it?

member_28802 · Post by **member_28802** » 13 Oct 2014 22:12

Barak -8 Successfully Test-Fired, Destroys Target missile

koti · Post by **koti** » 13 Oct 2014 22:13

Arun Menon wrote:^With Astra coming along well, there is no need for this gold plated shit that the french fries want to shove down our throats. Sufficient modifications can be made to Astra (adding booster, guidance etc.) and can be developed as a solid fueled SRSAM (I believe it has been done before).

I disagree. It is one way to look at it.
Astra 1 might be comparable to R-77; Astra 2 can be comparable to MICA if DRDO absorbs it good enough.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Oct 2014 23:18

Astra will definitely be changed into a SRSAM. But a missiles system is not just the missile itself. So it will take sometime before Astra comes on board and gets integrated into a SAM system. Probably 4-5 years at the least. Navy, IA won't wait for that long. And, I won't blame the Navy at all.

member_28722 · Post by **member_28722** » 13 Oct 2014 23:31

^^^Doesn't IN already have an SRSAM in Barak1? IA and IN are already inducting Akash in favour of Maitri.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Oct 2014 23:42

Yes, they just order 262 of those. They were in dire need of the missiles. But these will not be enough. We will soon need more.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Oct 2014 23:56

Bankim wrote:Barak -8 Successfully Test-Fired, Destroys Target missile

Original article:

Navy Secretly Tests 'Iron Dome for Ships'

Barak 8 missile was successful in intercepting a missile that imitated the Yakhont anti-ship cruise missile.

The test was carried out with the cooperation of an Italian firm, which provided a missile that imitated the Yakhont and similar missiles. The Barak 8, which is not unlike the well-known Iron Dome anti-missile system, succeeded in intercepting it

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 14 Oct 2014 03:41

Yeah we should test it against Brahmos when it is inducted with IN.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Oct 2014 05:09

Air Force already has the SPYDER LLQRM for replacing missiles in Maitri category. And IA also has a RFP out for similar class of missile. So, unless Maitri offers something extraordinary by way of technology, just buy the stuff from Israel for now and be done with it. I don't want a situation where DPSU are pushing the 'JV' to get their paws into screwdriver job and to keep their order books filled.

John · Post by **John** » 14 Oct 2014 06:05

srai wrote:France Extends Help to Expedite 'Maitri'
...

Contradicting the IAF claims, another MoD official said, “As far as I understand, there is no match between two missile systems. While the range of SRSAM will be of 40 km, Akash’s range is only 25 km. Moreover, the SRSAM will be much cheaper than Akash, if produced in India.”

SRSAM could be cheaper than Akash, Akash is still 600 kg missile a smaller 100kg missile could cost less than 200K based on seeker that is used (CAMM for example).

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 14 Oct 2014 06:25

indranilroy wrote:Maitri is an important development. It was supposed to fill up the last important gap in our missile development (the Trishul missile): a quick reaction short range SAM, the last layer of defense against aerial attacks. This class of missiles is required by all the three forces and cannot be replaced by Akash (at least for the Navy). Even for the Army and Airforce, it would be better to have more numerous and cheaper solid fueled missiles rather than the 720 kg behemoths that Akashes are. The layers are simple: LRSAM/MRSAM (upto 80 kms), Akash (up to 35 kms) and Maitri (up to 15 kms).

Make no mistake, if this deal falls through, you will see outright import for this class of missiles for at least the Army and the Navy (both sent RFIs in 2012). At best you, will see screwdriver-giri (full TOT) by a private entity. You have already seen the SOSNA deal.

^^This. Trishul SQR did not develop in a vacuum and neither Barak and SpyDer purchases happened in vacuum. If there is no desi system available in that category, the forces will go for direct imports. DRDO's QRSAM is in initial design phase only, no chance of seeing it entering service before the end of decade. Till then, part desi system, Maitri will do. At least with Maitri system, Indian radars and command guidance systems would be used and the interceptor would be licensed. With a direct import, domestic content will reduce to babaji ka thullu levels.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 14 Oct 2014 06:35

As per wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barak_1_%28missile%29) 262 Barak missiles cost in all INR 880 crores. That works out to a staggering INR 3.36 crores per missile. This is a gross figure and probably includes training rounds, instrumentation, spares, warranty etc. I'm pretty sure that
(a) the Maitri would, being French, cost substantially more
(b) the Astra would cost a lot less (though the only open source cost figure I was able to find was a mention of a development cost of INR 955 crores)
(c) the Astra could be in production as a SRSAM as fast as the putative Maitri, given that it is expected to complete trials by 2015

That said, what is the gurus' opinion (Indranil, Karan et al)? Is this feasible given the issues with BDL, and the chance, however remote, that the Astra program will see additional delays? And of course I am happily ignorant of the additional work required to convert the Astra to a SAM role, but presume that it could be launched as a parallel project to the ongoing AtoA project by a separate team.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 14 Oct 2014 06:42

indranilroy wrote:Astra will definitely be changed into a SRSAM. But a missiles system is not just the missile itself. So it will take sometime before Astra comes on board and gets integrated into a SAM system. Probably 4-5 years at the least. Navy, IA won't wait for that long. And, I won't blame the Navy at all.

The Maitri is a co-production endeavour. Wouldn't it take a few years to absorb the tech, set up a production line and start rolling out the product? Assuming three years, we'd be in 2018 before the first Matri units rolled out. I was wondering if it would be possible to fast track the Astra SRSAM conversion to match that time frame.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 Oct 2014 07:05

IIRC, SPYDER purchase had some bribery aligation against it. Which resulted in the banning of future purchases by the Saint. Sometime in the 2010 11 time frame.

It is in this time frame the Matri Sam was proposed to be developed.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Oct 2014 07:37

Hobbes, I am not a guru by any stretch of imagination. I am just expressing my opinions.

I am not disillusioned with what we stand to learn from the project. May be seeker, TVC control tech. Most probably NOTHING. But, we will develop our launcher, command control, guidance and other software systems etc. from today. The good thing is when Astra 2 is ready, we can replace Mica with the Astra 2 and we will have our truly indigenous system.

Otherwise, there will be direct imports now. Then, DRDO will put together a plan for a Astra-based SAM. Babus and forces will ask 'but why'? We already have our imported systems. Why foot the bill for development? If required why not import more? It will also give us commonality! Dalals will grease all possible palms. Finally, MoD will approve a "technology demonstrator" project. The 3 forces won't be able to come up with a joint ASQR. The saga will continue ...

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 14 Oct 2014 08:02

An Indian SR SAM for the navy based on the astra will not require fire control systems etc. as they can use the same one which the Barak-8 system uses. Only thing that is to be done now is to modify the missile(may be add TVC etc) and develop the launcher.

John · Post by **John** » 14 Oct 2014 08:10

abhik wrote:An Indian SR SAM for the navy based on the astra will not require fire control systems etc. as they can use the same one which the Barak-8 system uses. Only thing that is to be done now is to modify the missile(may be add TVC etc) and develop the launcher.

It's Active guided missile only thing that is needed would be target tracking which any radar can easily be integrated and israel radar systems have usually been easier to integrate compared to Russian (even then we were able to use Half plate radar on Delhi to provide target tracking for Barak, FCR is still STGR).

But that said converting Aster for SRSAM purpose isn't as straightforward it still needs to have vertical thrusters and DRDO doesn't have any experience with Hot launch so we still need Israeli help or reverse engineer/access to Barak-1/8 launchers. SRSAM seems to be design of whole new launcher just for this SAM system which seems rather peculiar considering we could easily use Barak launchers unless IAI/Rafael aren't willing to allow us to fit any other missile in there.
On top of that if the missiles needs to have range > 10 km we need to fit with extra booster + incorporate some datalink capability for mid course guidance all which means 5 to 10 years before it sees even testing.

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Oct 2014 08:33

NRao wrote:
Bankim wrote:Barak -8 Successfully Test-Fired, Destroys Target missile
Original article:

Navy Secretly Tests 'Iron Dome for Ships'

Barak 8 missile was successful in intercepting a missile that imitated the Yakhont anti-ship cruise missile.

The test was carried out with the cooperation of an Italian firm, which provided a missile that imitated the Yakhont and similar missiles. The Barak 8, which is not unlike the well-known Iron Dome anti-missile system, succeeded in intercepting it

Exactly which Italian firm has a missile drone that can imitate a supersonic Yakhont flying at Mach 2? I have not heard of such a thing to date. They have Mirach 100/5 series, which are high subsonic aerial target system with a max speed of Mach 0.85. Seems more of a propaganda for general public than anything else.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Oct 2014 08:40

Thakur_B

Tell me more about Trishul and its tri-service role.
Thanks
R

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Oct 2014 08:42

Srai-> Since us SDRE's have the biggest interest in Barak-8 being a success, could it be a Brahmos was the target missile for the Barak-8?

srin · Post by **srin** » 14 Oct 2014 10:20

I hope it wasn't the Brahmos. The flight envelope and terminal maneuverability characteristics are best not disclosed, not even to Israel.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 14 Oct 2014 10:23

Wasn't there another supersonic missile that was sold by Russians to the Americans for such an experiment.

srin · Post by **srin** » 14 Oct 2014 10:25

abhik wrote:An Indian SR SAM for the navy based on the astra will not require fire control systems etc. as they can use the same one which the Barak-8 system uses. Only thing that is to be done now is to modify the missile(may be add TVC etc) and develop the launcher.

Yes and no. The big destroyers and frigates can get Barak-8 directly - they anyway have Israeli MFSTAR and STAR radars. The SRSAM is for OPVs and corvettes that have Indian radars (like Revathi). So they need to spend time on the integration with the cueing systems.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Oct 2014 10:47

Nirbhay to be test-fired on Friday T.S.Subramanian, The Hindu

Nirbhay, a subsonic cruise missile developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation, will be test-fired for the second time from the Integrated Test Range at Balasore in Odisha on Friday. Its debut flight on March 12, 2013, was a failure.

Nirbhay has a special path, as it takes off vertically like a missile, rises to 800 metres, turns horizontally, then spreads out its wings and cruises like an aircraft. The two-stage, surface-to-surface missile has an 800-km-plus range. But it can cover even 1,000 km, say DRDO missile technologists.

After a booster engine fires and catapults the missile from a mobile launcher (a big lorry), the missile will climb and an on-board mechanism will tilt it from the vertical to the horizontal path. The booster engine is then jettisoned and the missile’s wings are deployed. Afterwards, the turbojet engine in the second stage, akin to an aircraft’s, comes to life and it becomes a cruising missile.

Nirbhay, capable of flying at 0.7 mach, is a “tree-top” missile — as the missile traverses at the height of a palmyra tree, radars will find it difficult to detect the weapon. It is a “loitering” missile — it can circle over an area for many minutes and pick out the target. Its flight duration can last an hour. It can carry multiple payloads and engage several targets. Its seeker helps detect the target with lock-on-after launch capability. The missile can be fired from a variety of platforms such as a lorry, a ship, an aircraft and underwater systems.

“Corrections have been made in this flight, and we are pursuing this project vigorously,” DRDO engineers said speaking about the failure of the first test-flight.

But DRDO engineers said the flight proved several technologies such as the missile’s vertical take-off, the first stage separation, switch-on of the turbo-jet engine, wing deployment, stabilisation of flight and way-pointing.

The original plan after the last failed test was to conduct nine more tests. Friday's and its follow-up test are supposed to validate the Nirbhay’s flight management system, inclusive of the digital terrain profile matching sensor (an X-band SAR).

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 14 Oct 2014 11:20

The design of the missile hasn't changed. The Samson and Tomahawk can travel beyond 3000 km. We need a range boost.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bz33idKCUAADlY-.jpg:large

srin · Post by **srin** » 14 Oct 2014 12:03

The smaller range could be because of using a turbojet - tomahawk uses turbofan, i think.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 14 Oct 2014 12:22

As per wiki chacha it uses Turbofan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirbhay

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 14 Oct 2014 12:46

[quote="SSridhar"]Nirbhay to be test-fired on Friday T.S.Subramanian, The Hindu

Any idea as to how many of the technologies involved in Nirbhay are indigenously developed, and how many are imported? The engine is imported, as must be the seeker. But there are many other components of the missile.

srin · Post by **srin** » 14 Oct 2014 12:57

Yagnasri wrote:As per wiki chacha it uses Turbofan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirbhay

As per the TSS article in Hindu someone posted above, it is a turbojet

After a booster engine fires and catapults the missile from a mobile launcher (a big lorry), the missile will climb and an on-board mechanism will tilt it from the vertical to the horizontal path. The booster engine is then jettisoned and the missile’s wings are deployed. Afterwards, the turbojet engine in the second stage, akin to an aircraft’s, comes to life and it becomes a cruising missile.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 14 Oct 2014 14:47

Fortunate that no one is writing it is Nuclear Powered.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Oct 2014 14:55

TSS is usually very accurate. we had read upto 200 turbofan engines from saturn(used in kh55) were purchased outright for use in the initial tranches of nirbhays. but who knows, perhaps some of the parallel domestic efforts like laghu shakti are being also tested.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Oct 2014 16:42

It was always turbo-fan, AFAIK.