Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby pankajs » 23 Oct 2014 11:06

Just because the tomahawks were delivered to China does not make it binding on China to give Pakis its top of the line missile or whatever it the tomahawk equivalent.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 23 Oct 2014 11:39

yes they have passed on a b-team model as the Babur and kept the real maal for the Cj-10 longSword family.

we can however expect Cj-10 attacks on all our airbases , supply dumps and radar nodes because GLCM is not perceived as escalatory compared to a ballistic missile strike.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby geeth » 23 Oct 2014 15:30

IMO the significance of Nirbhay is the usefulness of the technologies used in development of UAVs and UCAVs and vice versa - hence the choice of ADE as the developer of this missile. It would be possible to interchange the brains of this missile with that of UAV/UCAV with ease. May be that is why they tested its ability to return back and some other manoevres.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby negi » 23 Oct 2014 16:02

Pakis for their knowledge and IP have done remarkably well in terms of getting decent CMs in both RAAD and Babur (that's some begging I tell you), we had to play catch up with them on this front.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby pankajs » 23 Oct 2014 16:04

Pakis have perfected the art of negotiating from a position of extreme weakness.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby dinesha » 23 Oct 2014 17:42

View from Across..
PLA's CJ-10 cruise missile more advanced than Indian counterpart

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 8&cid=1101
After India tested its subsonic Nirbhay cruise missile–which is
capable of carrying nuclear warheads–on Oct. 17, the Sina
Military Network based in Beijing said that China's CJ-10 cruise
missile is much more powerful than its Indian counterpart.
The Kanwa Defense Review operated by Andrei Chang, a military
analyst in Canada who is also known as Pinkov, reported that the
range of the Nirbhay is between 700 and 1,000 kilometers.
Like the US Tomahawk cruise missile, China's CJ-10 cruise
missiles can attack targets 2,500 kilometers away. Designed as
supersonic cruise missile, the speed of the CJ-10 is much faster
than the Nirbhay.
Another advantage is that the CJ-10 is cheaper than missiles from
other nations. The price for a single missile is estimated to be only
US$175,000 according to a defense expert from the United States.
The Sina Military Network said this means that it can be exported
to China's allies and security partners in huge numbers.
With help from Russia, India began the development of the
BrahMos supersonic cruise missile back in 2005. However, the
range of this supersonic missile is no more than 300 kilometers.
Pakistan's Babur land attack cruise missile, on the other hand,
has a range of between 700-1,000 kilometers. Avinash Chander,
the chief architect of the Agni series of ballistic missile systems
said that India will stop introducing missiles from other nations
and start to build its own missiles in 2022.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 23 Oct 2014 18:08

a 2500km supersonic cruise missile - I would call BS on that. the speed is reported as supersonic in the wiki as well. the pix on web all show a subsonic airframe about the same size and shape as the nirbhay..

also the 2500km range of Thawk is only with the light W80 nuclear payload(130kg). when you move to bomblet or unitary heavy conventional payload (450kg) model the range declines to 1500km inevitably. about the same ballpark as the nirbhay.

and the cost of $175,000 is another big piece of horse dung.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kashi » 23 Oct 2014 18:13

We see such comparative analysis crop up every time we test or develop a new system- be it missiles, satellites, launchers etc. Looks like some folks are rattled indeed.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 23 Oct 2014 18:21

Any news of the upcoming Agni-5 missile test? I recall a before October-end launch schedule.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 23 Oct 2014 18:28

dinesha wrote: View from Across..
PLA's CJ-10 cruise missile more advanced than Indian counterpart

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 8&cid=1101


Happy to see China competing

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Victor » 23 Oct 2014 19:21

Missile range is a function of propellant as the rattled Chinese must know. Any freighter or sub in South China Sea can carry a few Nirbhay or Brahmos. The upshot is that no corner of China is safe from an Indian cruise missile strike.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cybaru » 23 Oct 2014 19:23

dinesha wrote: View from Across..
PLA's CJ-10 cruise missile more advanced than Indian counterpart [/b]
http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 8&cid=1101


Awwww, someones feeling a little insecure! Don't you worry, we got your back!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SaiK » 23 Oct 2014 19:36

Victor wrote:Missile range is a function of propellant as the rattled Chinese must know. Any freighter or sub in South China Sea can carry a few Nirbhay or Brahmos. The upshot is that no corner of China is safe from an Indian cruise missile strike.

what if they go ballistic! :twisted: :((

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 23 Oct 2014 19:36

LoL wait till India tests the long range supersonic cruise missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 23 Oct 2014 22:31

There was supposed to be another nirbhay project with a shrouded propfan for massive subsonic range or loiter time.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SaiK » 23 Oct 2014 22:38

all we need is terrain hugging data for chippanda. tree level nukes a-la carte

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 23 Oct 2014 23:08

Victor wrote:Missile range is a function of propellant as the rattled Chinese must know. Any freighter or sub in South China Sea can carry a few Nirbhay or Brahmos. The upshot is that no corner of China is safe from an Indian cruise missile strike.



Victor, This is what I thought you meant in your earlier post!!!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby NRao » 23 Oct 2014 23:59

shiv wrote:
dinesha wrote: View from Across..
PLA's CJ-10 cruise missile more advanced than Indian counterpart

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 8&cid=1101


Happy to see China competing


Competing? Will take them a while to do that. If distance is the (sole?) determining factor than I give. But, while these yahoos are driving towards India and a missile hit them form the back they will think it is red-on-red. Now when the missiles picks a certain target, among clutter, with consistency, then they will attain moksha on missilehood.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28797 » 24 Oct 2014 05:11

dinesha wrote: View from Across..
PLA's CJ-10 cruise missile more advanced than Indian counterpart

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 8&cid=1101
After India tested its subsonic Nirbhay cruise missile–which is
capable of carrying nuclear warheads–on Oct. 17, the Sina
Military Network based in Beijing said that China's CJ-10 cruise
missile is much more powerful than its Indian counterpart.
.


:rotfl: :rotfl: Oh wow even cheenis are coming out wih nuclear bum threats now AoA.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Vipul » 24 Oct 2014 05:24

Israel seals long-delayed $144 million missile deal with India.

India will take possession of hundreds (VDM) of Israeli-made Barak missiles for its battleships late next year, following approval of a weapons deal between the two countries that had been delayed for years.

The purchase deal was approved by India’s cabinet committee on security matters, headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, according to the Times of India.

Under the plan, India will take delivery of 262 Barak 1 missiles over the course of about five years, starting in December of 2015. These will be deployed on the country’s 14 battleships, which have suffered from dwindling missile supplies in recent years, according to the Indian navy.

The Israeli Defense Ministry refused to comment on Israel’s extensive military relationship with India. However, an Israeli source defined India as “a strategic state” with respect to Israel’s military exports and confirmed that the deal is indicative of the close relations between the two countries.

Israel sees the Barak missile deal as a significant step by the new government in India; one which could advance diplomatic relations as well as military ties. The newly-elected Modi is considered to hold pro-Israel views.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu met with Modi in New York last month and invited him to visit Israel. It was the first meeting between the prime ministers of the two countries in more than a decade. Among other things, Netanyahu proposed to Modi that the two countries expand relations in the cyber field. “We are excited about stronger and stronger relations with India, and the sky is the limit,” Netanyahu told the press after the meeting.

The Barak missile deal was at the center of a scandal in 2006, when suspicions arose of corruption on the part of Indian politicians in return for advancing weapons deals in the country. Indian opposition parties demanded an investigation of the Barak deal following allegations that Israel Aerospace Industries (then called Israel Aircraft industries) had bribed an intermediary in the deal in order to ensure the signing of the contact.

The case was closed due to lack of evidence, according to the article in the Times of India.

Israel has extensive security relations with India and is considered a major arms supplier to several south Asian countries. With a staff of six, its military delegation in India is second only to that of the United States. The Barak missile deal is estimated at $144 million.

The Indian minister of defense visited Israel for three days last July and talked with top Israeli officials about additional weapons deals, among them a control system for the India air force. Israel is also interested in selling India Israeli defense systems, such as Iron Dome, though it has not been successful so far. Last year, the Indian government approved the purchase of 15 Heron unmanned aerial vehicles produced by IAI. Israel is currently developing a more advanced model of the Barak missile, the Barak 8, in cooperation with India.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 24 Oct 2014 06:19

Singha wrote:a 2500km supersonic cruise missile - I would call BS on that. the speed is reported as supersonic in the wiki as well. the pix on web all show a subsonic airframe about the same size and shape as the nirbhay..

also the 2500km range of Thawk is only with the light W80 nuclear payload(130kg). when you move to bomblet or unitary heavy conventional payload (450kg) model the range declines to 1500km inevitably. about the same ballpark as the nirbhay.

and the cost of $175,000 is another big piece of horse dung.


I was saying this for a long time here. But our junta seems to have trans-fixated on 2500/3000 km mark. Often used that as a benchmark for comparison.

To repeat only Nuclear Tomahawk do have a range of 2500 km and probably more. It is no longer in service [as my knowledge goes].
Its high range is not only due to 1. reduction in payload (as quoted by Singha) but also due to 2. less volume of the payload, so more room for fuel tank and 3. Flight characteristics.

Literally, comparing N-Tomahawk(having range 2500 km and above) with any conventional Cruise missile is like comparing apples and oranges.

Coming to subsonic long range missile, when we take a overall view, there is no big adv (or the adv is meager with increasing range) in having a very large range with low subsonic speed - as Americans realized and upgraded the current Thawk and it can travel at high subsonic cruising speed. More than 0.9 M I guess.

Second these subsonic missile with less speed is more prone to interception. To tell you how easy it can be, once identified, you can take a twin seater plane like Cessna and tip the missile physically & crash them; or even just with pistol from plane.

Longer the range, more the air time and more easy to engage and destroy.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SaiK » 24 Oct 2014 06:39

a neutron maal is more ideally suited for cruise missile perhaps.. we are interested only in live stock destruction on the enemy air+zone. any interception should trigger the proximity fuse as well [by design?]. interception can be tracked and signaled for further counter attacks either with multiple terrain hugging nirbhays or ballistic petals showered using a5 or a6. chippanda must shudder to do first strike or do any move on the border to bother us.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 24 Oct 2014 08:01

Kanson wrote:...

Literally, comparing N-Tomahawk(having range 2500 km and above) with any conventional Cruise missile is like comparing apples and oranges.

Coming to subsonic long range missile, when we take a overall view, there is no big adv (or the adv is meager with increasing range) in having a very large range with low subsonic speed - as Americans realized and upgraded the current Thawk and it can travel at high subsonic cruising speed. More than 0.9 M I guess.

Second these subsonic missile with less speed is more prone to interception. To tell you how easy it can be, once identified, you can take a twin seater plane like Cessna and tip the missile physically & crash them; or even just with pistol from plane.

Longer the range, more the air time and more easy to engage and destroy.


No, it is not that easy to destroy a subsonic missile flying in a terrain-hugging profile especially if it is in a mountainous region. To make it more difficult, a series of random waypoint manoeuvres could be programmed on its way to the target and make its approach to the target from unexpected directions and hours of day (typically, at night).

Secondly, these are launched in salvo/saturation mode making it more difficult to intercept all of them before they hit their designated targets. You can imagine the complexities of air defence against all of these small terrain huggers closing in from various directions and intervals plus using various waypoint manoeuvres.

The other thing to point out is these cruise missiles are typically used for taking out radar installations and SAM sites early in the conflict. That would make it more difficult to detect and engage them later on. Even with the ground radars intact, you still need AEWs and other airborne sensors to detect them early enough for an effective engagement. Even then, some would get through.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Paul » 24 Oct 2014 09:23

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/n ... epage=true

Nirbhay will be backbone of ‘cold-start,’ say experts

India's first indigenously designed and developed long range sub-sonic cruise missile Nirbhay.
DRDO India's first indigenously designed and developed long range sub-sonic cruise missile Nirbhay.
TOPICS
defence
missile systems
Nirbhay, India’s first long-range subsonic cruise missile, which was test-fired on October 17, can be a game-changer in India’s strategic calculus, defence analysts and strategic experts feel.

Capable of flying at a tree-top altitude for over 1,000 km, Nirbhay can carry out surgical strikes and thus back up India’s “cold start” doctrine that envisages limited, precise strikes across the border. The introduction of nuclear weapons in the subcontinent has virtually stalled a conventional Indian response to Pakistan’s cross-border terrorism.

“India is confronted with the problem of developing a strategy to counter Pakistan’s ‘first-strike’ and continuing proxy war,” says Dr. Monika Chansoria, Senior Fellow at the Centre for Land Warfare Studies. She points out that Pakistan cites “India’s conventional military threat” to maintain its own offensive strategic posture and India will have to develop a response to this.

In this context, “cold start” has been put forward as an offensive doctrine by the Indian strategic establishment. Though “officially denied,” its presence is widely acknowledged in strategic circles.

In the event of an Indian offensive, a volley of missiles flying low can effectively take out key command and control centres, blunting the resistance to the advancing armoured columns.

“The successful indigenous development of Nirbhay cruise missile will fill a vital gap in the war-fighting capabilities of our armed forces,” Avinash Chander, Director-General, Defence Research and Development Organisation, said after the test launch on October 17.

Defence analyst Rahul Bedi observes that Nirbhay will be a force multiplier to the in-waiting “cold start” doctrine, but the doctrine itself is a non-starter as of now for lack of critical assets such as artillery, armour and helicopters. The Army has to fast-forward acquisition and induction of these platforms.

In the short-term, experts believe that Nirbhay, along with its shorter-range supersonic sibling BrahMos, will form the backbone of the doctrine.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 24 Oct 2014 09:27

Kanson wrote:you can take a twin seater plane like Cessna and tip the missile physically & crash them; or even just with pistol from plane.

Kanson ji have you been watching a Hollywood movie from my childhood called "633 squadron"?

V1s had this done to them but they used to fly at 2000 feet or higher.
Image

At treetop level (eg 100 feet/30 meters) no Cessna is going to do this.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 24 Oct 2014 10:05

shiv wrote:
Kanson wrote:you can take a twin seater plane like Cessna and tip the missile physically & crash them; or even just with pistol from plane.

Kanson ji have you been watching a Hollywood movie from my childhood called "633 squadron"?

V1s had this done to them but they used to fly at 2000 feet or higher.
Image

At treetop level (eg 100 feet/30 meters) no Cessna is going to do this.


Namaste Shiv saar. Glad to see the veteran!

Thanks for providing pictorial story of what I'm trying to say. So now it is only the question of plane that can do this at 100 feet rather than at 2000 feet? :D

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 24 Oct 2014 10:17

srai wrote:
No, it is not that easy to destroy a subsonic missile flying in a terrain-hugging profile especially if it is in a mountainous region. To make it more difficult, a series of random waypoint manoeuvres could be programmed on its way to the target and make its approach to the target from unexpected directions and hours of day (typically, at night).

pranaam srai saab, purpose of my post, as you can see, is there are more to the missile than range. And don't judge the missile by range.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28108 » 24 Oct 2014 11:10

The V1 buzz bombs used to be flipped over by the spitfires.It was not an easy job but the RAF perfected it. In fact they had recorded a flipping on film which was shown on the documentaries that used to be shown before the main movies.Somehow it is not digitized and not on youtube/or any other internet site. One of the channels (I think discovery) has shown the clip of the flipping which was recorded from another plane (two were chasing the buzz bomb).
The thing was fraught with danger as the wing of that generation of aircraft were actually not that strong and could easily have broken off if the tipping was too forceful.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Oct 2014 11:23

I think while trying to calculate Nirbhay cruising speed, it is not a simple calculation of 1050Km/70 mins as the flight path shown has a lot energy bleeding high energy turns where the Missile would have slowed down to .4 mach or so, and there is around 11 way points in some where a U-turn is undertaken.

Assuming that the missile flew at 165m for 13 minutes while it was slowing down, turning and then accelerating, the cruising speed would be around 0.8 Mach.

I think these cruise missile are pretty vulnerable to AAM's if detected and fighters cued on time, but if fired in numbers then they become difficult to intercept.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srin » 24 Oct 2014 12:15

Cruise missiles are always vulnerable if detected. But their lethality comes from the ability to evade detection. Flying at below 1000 ft altitude at Mach 0.7+ means a) it is very difficult for a ground radar to detect due to line of sight limitations; and b) lock on even if detected; and c) engage even if it could lock on; and finally, d) destroy all the missiles in the salvo. And the missiles are programmed to fly around known AD positions.

There are counter measures. We use aero-stat radars to get around the LOS limits, and presumably they have good software to eliminate clutter.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kit » 24 Oct 2014 12:36

With cruise missiles success depends on how sophisticated the enemy air defences are. Its a numbers game against a layered defense system , inevitably some would go through.I feel Nirbhay will not be alone in a massed strike against both PK and CN . It would be a layered strike with different profiles and Brahmos thrown in for good measure ! PK will be dead meat even without the army needing to cross the border .Add the UAVs and UCAVs to the combination and the permutations are endless !!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_20453 » 24 Oct 2014 13:11

Well going by the specs, the Nirhay indeed should be able to travel as low as 5-10M, Pakis won't see it coming. As for proper counters for enemy missiles, well we need a extensive network of Aeostats with AESA and long rang detection, Akash based on the recent low level intercept of terrain hugging cm style target can handle the barbars and the raads. Spyder ADS should also be able to take out targets like that quite easy.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 24 Oct 2014 19:32

I was trying to think through the use of a nuclear tipped CM. could not come up with any useful thing. perhaps thats why ppl have retired it.

- if the idea is not to create a launch on detect n-escalation, it makes sense to keep the CM feelt entirely conventional
- against a stronger or peer adversary, whether in 1st or 2nd strike it takes far too long from launch to impact and is easier to intercept compared to BMs
- against a weaker adversary might as well use BMs , CMs bring no particular advantage to take in a nuclear attack scenario. the weak adversary can neither detect and eliminate CM or BM, so might as well finish it off quickly.
- CMs are slow , prone to some % failure, can be shot down by SAMs and AAMs cannot be tasked as a strategic deterrant

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 24 Oct 2014 21:01

Is there any bunker buster warhead for Nirbhay ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 24 Oct 2014 21:03

Aditya_V wrote:Assuming that the missile flew at 165m for 13 minutes while it was slowing down, turning and then accelerating, the cruising speed would be around 0.8 Mach.

At sea level 0.8 mach is 950 kmph (about 260 meters per sec) or 500 kts - a very respectable speed for something flying 30 meters above the ground. Such an object would be very difficult to shoot down from the ground.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 24 Oct 2014 21:29

Bunker buster role is best left to Brahmos types with vertical dive capability.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 24 Oct 2014 21:47

Brahmos is limited to just 290 km.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 24 Oct 2014 22:07

Since cm would go after preset target it can be commanded to climb and dive also.
Even harpoon ask has that mode.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 24 Oct 2014 22:20

Singha wrote:I was trying to think through the use of a nuclear tipped CM. could not come up with any useful thing. perhaps thats why ppl have retired it.
N-CM like Thawk was supposed to be used as part of escalation matrix before an all out Nuclear attack with BM.
Reason: 1. lesser dial -a-yield regarded as tactical battlefield weapon.
2. Stealthiness & accuracy compared to BM of that era. More suited for CounterForce attack as part of first strike.

Retired as US N posture changed, Budget cuts, Strategic N cuts, betterment of BM accuracy and navigation package etc....

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SaiK » 24 Oct 2014 22:27

if nirbhay can somehow tackle the l-band radar by absorption or deflection technique on its skin, then taking musharraf outta chippanda XI is a certainity.


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