Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby koti » 11 Nov 2014 01:16

Could be Deck Speed vs Speed at an Altitude.
I am not sure of the numbers but this could be a possibility.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby pankajs » 11 Nov 2014 01:21

100 KM range is for an extended range version.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Will » 11 Nov 2014 02:29

Now which part of the barak-8 does DRDO make? Heard it was the propulsion. Anything else from DRDO?

Shaun wrote:they haven't mentioned that it is 1st test , merrily said , it was tested successfully . Until and unless some definite reporting comes from indian press we can only speculate.


Think its the first test against a live target.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 11 Nov 2014 03:02

Courtesy Shiv Aroor:
Image

Israeli brain, Indian brawn.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28722 » 11 Nov 2014 03:18

Will wrote:Now which part of the barak-8 does DRDO make? Heard it was the propulsion. Anything else from DRDO?

This makes the speed part even stranger since we already have a faster Akash missile ... :-?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SaiK » 11 Nov 2014 04:38

aroor tweeted

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 11 Nov 2014 07:02

I guess given the proven success of their iron dome systems, the israeli engg teams have some free time now and will quickly wrap this one up :)

it looks slim and capable of being densely packed both into TELAR and naval VLS systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 11 Nov 2014 07:03

IAI Press Release on the LR-SAM aka Barak-8 test launch:

IAI Successfully Tested the Barak-8 Air & Missile Defense System

Nov 10, 2014

Image

Barak-8 missile is launched during the test (archive)

Today at 07:20 (Israel time), Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), in collaboration with the Israeli Ministry of Defense (IMOD), conducted a successful test of the Barak-8 Air & Missile Defense System.

Barak-8 is an advanced groundbreaking air and missile defense system that provides ultimate protection against a variety of aerial platforms, both land and naval scenarios. It is designed jointly with the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organization) in India and is used by the IDF and the Indian defense forces. The system includes an advanced Phased Array digital radar, command and control, vertical launchers and missiles carrying a highly advanced seeker.

Barak-8 is regarded as an extensive project by the IMOD and is led by IAI, the prime contractor, in collaboration with IMOD's Directorate of Defense Research and Development (DDR&D), ELTA Systems Ltd.- IAI's group and subsidiary, RAFAEL Advanced Defense Systems, and other defense industries.

The current test validated all components of the weapon system to the satisfaction of the customer representatives. Israeli specialists and Indian scientists, including IMOD's and DDR&D's representatives participated in the test, along with both countries' armed forces officers.

Joseph Weiss, IAI's President and CEO, who was present at the testing-site, said:" The system's impressive, advanced capabilities proven today in this complex test, are another testimony of IAI's resilience, advanced and groundbreaking capabilities. Barak-8 Air & Missile Defense System is a major growth engine for the company."

The scenario began with launching the target. After being detected by the System's radar, the weapon system calculated the optimal interception point, launched the Barak-8 missile into its operational trajectory that acquired the target, and successfully intercepted it. All the weapon system's components met the test's goals successfully.

Dr. Avinash Chander, Head of DRDO and Scientific adviser to the Indian defense minister, said: "This is an important milestone in the cooperation between India and Israel and in the development of the Barak-8 advanced air defense system."

Rear Admiral (Res.) Ophir Shoham, head of Research and Development directorate in the IMOD: "The Barak-8 project expresses a constructive cooperation between the Indian DRDO, the Israeli DDR&D and both countries' Defense Forces; together they have all pushed forward this important program, overcoming technological challenges and earning achievements along the way."

Boaz Levi, Executive Vice President and General Manager of Systems, Missiles & Space Group said: "We're very satisfied with the test results. Its success is an important example to the fruitful collaboration between IMOD, defense industries in Israel and our customers in Israel and abroad."

In the picture:
Barak-8 missile is launched during the test (archive)

For further information, please contact:
Eliana Fishler; Senior VP Communications; 972-3-935-8509, 972-54-434-2040; efishler@iai.co.il


From here:

IAI Press Release

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby wig » 11 Nov 2014 08:33

news on the lrsam seems to be the flavour of the day - Navy test-fires long range missile in Israel
The long range surface-to-air missile (LRSAM) that will be the main stay on Indian Naval warships and land-based Strike Corps, was today successfully tested against a flying target in a range in Israel.

The Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), Israel has carried out the test in the presence of DRDO scientists and officials of the Indian Armed Forces. The LRSAM system is jointly developed by DRDO and IAI Israel.

“All the systems including the radar, communication launch systems and the missile system have performed as expected and hit the target directly and damaged. The system is developed for both Israel Defence Forces and Indian Armed Forces”, a Ministry of statement said tonight.

The test is classified as ‘hot-test’ that denotes the missile will be given a target or multiple targets to aim at, a dummy plane or UAV. The targets will be moving at high speeds and the test will verify the ability of the LRSAM to identify and kill the target mid-air while even changing course mid-flight.

The missile is Rs 2606 crore – approximately US $ 450 Billion – project and is expected to be completed in December 2015 instead of its original deadline of May 2011.

The LR-SAM will be the main stay on Navy warship, its mobile version will be forming an important layer of in the ground based air defence architecture handled by the Indian Air Force (IAF) and by the Indian Army around its Strike Corps. It has range of 70 kms and height ceiling of 16 kms. It will have the ability to simultaneously engage 12 targets with 24 missiles.

The DRDO is tasked with producing the propulsion rocket system, thrust vector system and certain other components. Israel Aerospace Industry (IA) will builds the seeker and the last stage avionics.

Once the LR-SAM is okayed frontline Indian warships will carry it, that includes 15 warships including the Vikramaditya and the under construction aircraft carrier, the Vikrant will have these. It’s easier to fit the LRSAM in under-construction ships, fitting it onto the existing platforms like the Vikramaditya will be a complex procedure and it will entail some cutting through the deck, a period of eight-nine months will be needed to do this.


Mainstay on warship
The LR-SAM will be the mainstay on Navy warship, its mobile version will be forming an important layer of in the ground based air defence architecture handled by the Indian Air Force and by the Indian Army around its Strike Corps.


http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20141111/nation.htm#3

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 11 Nov 2014 08:55

pankajs wrote:
Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 1h 1 hour ago

LRSAM has been tested several times. This test standsout because it met all parameters.

Note, per PIB "officials of the Indian Armed Forces" witnessed the test. That would suggest that the system is very near in its final configuration and was being demoed to its users.

Yes, we know that LR-SAM has been tested many times before. Also note that the picture accompanying the IAI press release says that the photo of the Barak-8 is from the archives ! Since all the flight trials took place in Negev, we had no info. A.K.Antony had indicated that the LR-SAM project would be completed in c. 2015. I interpret that to mean that it would be in production at that time.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby pankajs » 11 Nov 2014 09:38

Re. the Speed of the missile.

Lower speed translates into smaller turn radius and lesser g's on the missile during turnings I think. Yet at Mach 2 it is fast enough to chase any plane or cruise missile. It is fast enough to intercept on a Yakhont type missile at a safe distance.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shaun » 11 Nov 2014 11:04

what is the effective range of barak 8 against sea skimming targets? Elta 2048 is a must base radar, will its land base cousin have same radar or it will be Elta 2084?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 11 Nov 2014 14:10

pankajs wrote:Re. the Speed of the missile.

Lower speed translates into smaller turn radius and lesser g's on the missile during turnings I think. Yet at Mach 2 it is fast enough to chase any plane or cruise missile. It is fast enough to intercept on a Yakhont type missile at a safe distance.


Plus, unlike other SAM/AAMs that coast to the target, Barak-8 has a second motor for the terminal phase.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sudhan » 11 Nov 2014 14:26

I wonder at what distance was the target intercepted.
Size wise, the B8 looks quite compact. Without the extra (jettisionable) solid booster, I would guess the range cannot be more than 40 - 50 kms

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby tsarkar » 11 Nov 2014 15:12

^^ with booster, range is 120 km, and it becomes IAF's MR-SAM. W/O booster range is 60-80 km.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby pankajs » 11 Nov 2014 16:46

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 13h 13 hours ago

So the Israelis have admitted that IOC is 'only months away' for the LRSAM/Barak-8.
Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 13h 13 hours ago

2015 will be a big year for both the LRSAM and the Astra AAM.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 11 Nov 2014 18:54

ramana wrote:Kanson garu, How many times as AII tested by SFC?

Sir post 2007/08 Sfc started testing regularly. So atleast 5.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 11 Nov 2014 19:05

pankajs wrote:Re. the Speed of the missile.

Lower speed translates into smaller turn radius and lesser g's on the missile during turnings I think. Yet at Mach 2 it is fast enough to chase any plane or cruise missile. It is fast enough to intercept on a Yakhont type missile at a safe distance.
no one gives exact data. Point to note is, it employs rationing of fuel to maximize range w/out comprising kill efficiency. This is done by optimizing speed. IMO.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby John » 11 Nov 2014 19:24

Shaun wrote:what is the effective range of barak 8 against sea skimming targets? Elta 2048 is a must base radar, will its land base cousin have same radar or it will be Elta 2084?

It is limited by radar horizon of launching platform anything further and it won't be able to receive mid course guidance. Based on Israel media report it is hinted that Barak-8 can receive mid course guidance from other platforms (airborne) and could intercept supersonic missiles like Yakhont well beyond horizon (over 30 km).

Comparing range between missiles is moot point lets just say Barak-8 is basically similar to Aster-30 in terms of performance and $$. Israel wanted to purchase latter but was denied by Europe and started work on this missile originally with Singapore which later went with Aster.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 11 Nov 2014 20:47




LR-SAM launch and drone shoot down video.
Last edited by Indranil on 11 Nov 2014 21:17, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: corrected the youtube links

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 11 Nov 2014 21:06

John wrote:
Shaun wrote:what is the effective range of barak 8 against sea skimming targets? Elta 2048 is a must base radar, will its land base cousin have same radar or it will be Elta 2084?

It is limited by radar horizon of launching platform anything further and it won't be able to receive mid course guidance. Based on Israel media report it is hinted that Barak-8 can receive mid course guidance from other platforms (airborne) and could intercept supersonic missiles like Yakhont well beyond horizon (over 30 km).

Comparing range between missiles is moot point lets just say Barak-8 is basically similar to Aster-30 in terms of performance and $$. Israel wanted to purchase latter but was denied by Europe and started work on this missile originally with Singapore which later went with Aster.



Which is fine because you do not really need to bother with sea skimming profiles beyond 30-40ish km's anyhow..given the sort o impact the LR nature of the weapon would have on the launch profiles and aircrafts...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 11 Nov 2014 21:36

Kanson, Could you or someone get hold of reports of all the SFC testing for AII please?

Thanks a lot, ramana

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shaun » 11 Nov 2014 23:23

if the interceptor radar is limited by radar horizon then how is firing solution for missiles like BRAHMOS achieved ?? when the missile is fired and it is in pre determined altitude , mid course guidance is achieved through satellites and at the terminal phase ,by it seekers.If the radar gives initial guidance then the same radar must be getting initial coordinates from aerial platforms or satellites because its detection range too will be limited by radar horizon ..am i missing something ??

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby koti » 11 Nov 2014 23:47

Thakur_B wrote:LR-SAM launch and drone shoot down video.


I thought it only damaged the target according to the reports.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 12 Nov 2014 00:18

Shaun wrote:if the interceptor radar is limited by radar horizon then how is firing solution for missiles like BRAHMOS achieved ?? when the missile is fired and it is in pre determined altitude , mid course guidance is achieved through satellites and at the terminal phase ,by it seekers.If the radar gives initial guidance then the same radar must be getting initial coordinates from aerial platforms or satellites because its detection range too will be limited by radar horizon ..am i missing something ??


No these missiles use their own active and passive sensors as and use the aid of GPS and INS for navigation. As to how the ship gets to know of another ship at very long distances beyond horizon, there are several means. ELINT, ISR and of course you always have helicopters or other aircraft in the air. Taking a ship down at distance, especially one that measures in hundreds of miles is still not an easy task at the time of war when the opponent is using EMCON. As the Norwegians and the US are learning as they begin developing "smart" missiles that are extremely long ranged (300-500 nm) it aint as much about providing targeting throughout the flight as is about giving the missile the brains to discriminate the target, like pick up a rogue ship that is traveling in a convoy of other cargo ships - and to do this in a denied environment (GPS denied, SATCOM denied and EW jamming)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby John » 12 Nov 2014 00:53

Shaun wrote:if the interceptor radar is limited by radar horizon then how is firing solution for missiles like BRAHMOS achieved ?? when the missile is fired and it is in pre determined altitude , mid course guidance is achieved through satellites and at the terminal phase ,by it seekers.If the radar gives initial guidance then the same radar must be getting initial coordinates from aerial platforms or satellites because its detection range too will be limited by radar horizon ..am i missing something ??

Modern active/Ir guided Surface to air missiles aren't affected by radar horizon they fly at more of parabolic flight path but they don't activate their radar till their terminal phase due to the limited size of their radar and power restrictions. So they utilize mid course guidance to provide updates of the targets loc however they typically use ground or ship based radars which are limited by radar horizon.

Also ships don't move as fast as incoming airborne targets so the search radius for Ashm is much smaller than for Surface to air missile. Even then subsonic anti shipping missiles have very low probability of hitting targets more than 130 km and greater chance of hitting of wrong targets like tankers or other vessels (happened during the Iran-iraq war). Because the target ship could move from original area before the missile gets around 20 km from target and activates its seeker. I believe Otomat and few ashm used mid course guidance to get around that, also brahmos being super sonic can cover that ground much faster and also activates its seeker at higher altitude to identify targets since it carries much larger seeker than smaller Ashm.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Victor » 12 Nov 2014 08:38

Regarding "only Mach 2" speed of the missile, most of the time the converging speed is only going to affect how far away from the launcher an incoming target is intercepted, including aircraft, cruise and ballistic missiles. However, Mach 2 should also be more than enough to catch up with aircraft that resort to defensive maneuvering and to chase down departing aircraft.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shaun » 12 Nov 2014 10:10

Thank you John

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 12 Nov 2014 18:00

John wrote:
Shaun wrote:if the interceptor radar is limited by radar horizon then how is firing solution for missiles like BRAHMOS achieved ?? when the missile is fired and it is in pre determined altitude , mid course guidance is achieved through satellites and at the terminal phase ,by it seekers.If the radar gives initial guidance then the same radar must be getting initial coordinates from aerial platforms or satellites because its detection range too will be limited by radar horizon ..am i missing something ??

Modern active/Ir guided Surface to air missiles aren't affected by radar horizon they fly at more of parabolic flight path but they don't activate their radar till their terminal phase due to the limited size of their radar and power restrictions. So they utilize mid course guidance to provide updates of the targets loc however they typically use ground or ship based radars which are limited by radar horizon.

Also ships don't move as fast as incoming airborne targets so the search radius for Ashm is much smaller than for Surface to air missile. Even then subsonic anti shipping missiles have very low probability of hitting targets more than 130 km and greater chance of hitting of wrong targets like tankers or other vessels (happened during the Iran-iraq war). Because the target ship could move from original area before the missile gets around 20 km from target and activates its seeker. I believe Otomat and few ashm used mid course guidance to get around that, also brahmos being super sonic can cover that ground much faster and also activates its seeker at higher altitude to identify targets since it carries much larger seeker than smaller Ashm.


While certainly true for older missile designs, these limitations really do not exist any longer despite the fact that subsonic AsHM missiles have been used a lot more. The NSM/JSM has been tested and has performed well under the various conditions, and Lockheed showed up with a potentially 500nm (900+km) range design for a 400+ km requirement program with the LRASM. Electronics also have qualitative measures and leaps and bounds have been made there. What the LRASM has essentially done is blend the boundary between a missile and a UAV so it has a very high degree of sensor and data integration, processing and can use a host of information from different sources or NOT. Once they field a few hundred weapons by 2018 they will open this program up for competition and it seems Rayhtheon has teamed up with Kongsberg to produce a NG version of the NSM/JSM.


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shaun » 12 Nov 2014 19:38

yes brar saab , these LRSAM are intelligent enough to take out targets of their own.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby John » 12 Nov 2014 20:53

brar_w wrote:While certainly true for older missile designs, these limitations really do not exist any longer despite the fact that subsonic AsHM missiles have been used a lot more. The NSM/JSM has been tested and has performed well under the various conditions, and Lockheed showed up with a potentially 500nm (900+km) range design for a 400+ km requirement program with the LRASM. Electronics also have qualitative measures and leaps and bounds have been made there. What the LRASM has essentially done is blend the boundary between a missile and a UAV so it has a very high degree of sensor and data integration, processing and can use a host of information from different sources or NOT. Once they field a few hundred weapons by 2018 they will open this program up for competition and it seems Rayhtheon has teamed up with Kongsberg to produce a NG version of the NSM/JSM.


LRASM flies at high altitude and uses mid course guidance from launch and other platforms (missiles like Otomat require helicopter since they fly low to avoid detection and launch platform can't provide mid course due to low altitude) as does NSM. Any long range surface to missile will take it out at high altitude before its terminal phase unless they reduce their RCS tremendously.. Also IMO that missile will never see light of day...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 12 Nov 2014 21:01

LRASM flies at high altitude and uses mid course guidance from launch and other platforms (missiles like Otomat require helicopter since they fly low to avoid detection and launch platform can't provide mid course due to low altitude) as does NSM. Any long range surface to missile will take it out at high altitude before its terminal phase unless they reduce their RCS tremendously.. Also IMO that missile will never see light of day...


The Mid course update is required due to the distanced involved, especially since this thing is said to have loiter capabilities as well. Its a networked weapon that leverages the ISR build up that is happening right now and is obviously something designed for the Pacific, and with those assets in mind. You cannot ask for those sort of ranges without having the ISR in place to back up the capability..It would most likely integrate the ship, ISR and Space based assets to do what it does at those ranges and obviously the innards would be responsible for the autonomy and the threat libraries that require the sort of discriminating power that the ranges almost require for any sort of success. What they will most likely do is alter the profile depending upon the threat , target and what sort of air defense capability it is going up against. So you have a low RCS missile that would go low much earlier in its profile if it is going up against a ship that has a 100-120 km shooter for that sort of RCS..How many ships operating in the Pacific do however?

BTW, The LRASM is going to enter production and deliveries are scheduled for an undisclosed amount ( a few hundred by most account) between 2017-2018 after which the program opens up to competition. It was born out of a need and as such they were able to bypass a broader competition beyond the initial competition for DARPA funding for developing such a weapon. The OASuW Increment 1 plan was given the green light early this year and according to it, DARPA will see the development through till 2017, and the OEM will then complete deliveries by 2018 or early 2019. Beyond that they will obviously look at more options and continued development and production that follows the traditional USN competition.
Last edited by brar_w on 12 Nov 2014 21:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby John » 12 Nov 2014 21:15

brar_w wrote:Never see the light of day? The LRASM is going to enter production and deliveries are scheduled for an undisclosed amount ( a few hundred by most account) by 2018 after which the program opens up to competition.

There are few editorials criticizing it and calling for it to be cut hence i am skeptical. It all depends on who gets in WH in 2016. if its Hillary no chance it survives the cuts. IMO its obsolete a subsonic missile flying at high altitude will get eaten up alive by any long range SAM system.

Added:
So you have a low RCS missile that would go low much earlier in its profile if it is going up against a ship that has a 100-120 km shooter for that sort of RCS..How many ships operating in the Pacific do however?


The chinese "Aegis" and RIF SAM system fitted vessel have range over 120+ km. Korea and Japan both operate Aegis platforms. Barak-8 with Booster has range that approaches and hopefully AAD can be fitted on Brahmos VLS cells that should offer 200+ km range. Also have to keep in mind aircraft can only intercept high flying subsonic missiles quite easily low flying targets are much bigger challenge.
Last edited by John on 12 Nov 2014 21:26, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 12 Nov 2014 21:18

There are few editorials criticizing it and calling for it to be cut hence i am skeptical. It all depends on who gets in WH in 2016. if its Hillary no chance it survives the cuts


Doesn't matter who comes into power, cutting an immediate needs weapon is highly unlikely historically speaking. What folks have lobbied for and receives is that it be opened up for a competition (or recomposition) following a basic need that the urgent requirement would have met. Raytheon obviously teamed up with Kongsberg for this purpose as they would have had to focus on a JSOW varient by themselves given the limited amount of time to develop (by 2018), so they will most likely show up with a NSM/JSM sort of scalable weapon that would no doubt highlight internal carriage on the F-35C over the LRASM.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby NRao » 12 Nov 2014 21:19

Shaun wrote:yes brar saab , these LRSAM are intelligent enough to take out targets of their own.


NY Times, this morning's edition:

Fearing Bombs That Can Pick Whom to Kill

Image
A Long Range Anti-Ship Missile prototype, launched by a B-1 bomber, is designed to maneuver without human control. Credit Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency

Mid-course and network centric are nearly oxymoronic. In a network centric architecture, perhaps in an ideal one, there is no horizon!!!!!

On a bright fall day last year off the coast of Southern California, an Air Force B-1 bomber launched an experimental missile that may herald the future of warfare.

Initially, pilots aboard the plane directed the missile, but halfway to its destination, it severed communication with its operators. Alone, without human oversight, the missile decided which of three ships to attack, dropping to just above the sea surface and striking a 260-foot unmanned freighter.

Warfare is increasingly guided by software. Today, armed drones can be operated by remote pilots peering into video screens thousands of miles from the battlefield. But now, some scientists say, arms makers have crossed into troubling territory: They are developing weapons that rely on artificial intelligence, not human instruction, to decide what to target and whom to kill.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 12 Nov 2014 21:28

The chinese "Aegis" and RIF SAM system fitted vessel have range over 120+ km. Korea and Japan both operate Aegis platforms. Barak-8 with Booster has range that approaches and hopefully AAD can be fitted on Brahmos VLS cells that should offer 200+ km range. Also have to keep in aircraft can only intercept high flying subsonic missiles quite easily low flying targets are much bigger challenge


120Km for what sort of signature? LOW RCS and stealth is a design requirement for the program btw. Also, you have the autonomy and capability to reduce the profile to enter into low altitude profiles based on your threat assessment..So if you have a ship that can actually shoot at you from 100Km then you'd go low at those distances and obviously reduce your overall range. But even if the range reduces from 300-350nm to 200nm that is significantly more than what is possible and my feeling is that even that is ISR and network limited compared to threat SAM limited. To build upon what NRao has said, the biggest take away here is that they have the Targeting capability now to push the horizon that far back through integrating ISR and space..the missile just needs to be smart in its discriminating ability and be resistant to high jamming.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shaun » 12 Nov 2014 21:50

NRao wrote:
Shaun wrote:yes brar saab , these LRSAM are intelligent enough to take out targets of their own.


NY Times, this morning's edition:

Fearing Bombs That Can Pick Whom to Kill

A Long Range Anti-Ship Missile prototype, launched by a B-1 bomber, is designed to maneuver without human control. Credit Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency

Mid-course and network centric are nearly oxymoronic. In a network centric architecture, perhaps in an ideal one, there is no horizon!!!!!



On a bright fall day last year off the coast of Southern California, an Air Force B-1 bomber launched an experimental missile that may herald the future of warfare.

Initially, pilots aboard the plane directed the missile, but halfway to its destination, it severed communication with its operators. Alone, without human oversight, the missile decided which of three ships to attack, dropping to just above the sea surface and striking a 260-foot unmanned freighter.

Warfare is increasingly guided by software. Today, armed drones can be operated by remote pilots peering into video screens thousands of miles from the battlefield. But now, some scientists say, arms makers have crossed into troubling territory: They are developing weapons that rely on artificial intelligence, not human instruction, to decide what to target and whom to kill.


AI neural network !! skynet !!! the future looks scary

NRao
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby NRao » 12 Nov 2014 22:01

the future looks scary


That is exactly what they said when the auto was presented as an alternative to the horse buggy. Truthfully.

Heard of IoT?

Or closer to home: ALIS?

if its Hillary no chance it survives the cuts


Hmmmm.....

She just may surprise you. Perhaps one of the biggest fists out there.
Last edited by NRao on 12 Nov 2014 22:11, edited 1 time in total.

tsarkar
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby tsarkar » 12 Nov 2014 22:11

BrahMos does not have any datalink, and does not need any mid course updates.

BrahMos flies between Mach 1.2-1.4 initially & Mach 3 terminally. At Mach3, range is 120 km.

To cover 290 km at Mach 1.2, it needs 729 seconds or 12.15 minutes. To cover 120 km at Mach 3, it needs 291 seconds or 4.85 minutes.

A ship travelling at 30 knots will cover a distance of 11 to 4.5 km.

Initial cueing is by Ka-31 or Heron UAV or Phalcon AEW or a recce MiG29K or a recce Do228/Il-38/Tu-142/P-8I. Ofcourse, the last platforms carry own weapons as well.

After initial cueing, assuming target ship moves 11-4.5 km, Brahmos own radar with advertised 50 km range can detect the delta from initial cueing and provide terminal homing information.

http://www.granit-electron.ru/en/produc ... hont_head/

Now let the discussion refocus on Indian missiles rather than uncle missiles.

shaun
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shaun » 12 Nov 2014 22:11

Nope Raoji , i never heard of IoT or ALIS , sounds GeeK / Greek to me !! :) Automobile for mobility , missiles for killing and destruction . Putting AI into Automobile not in missile, will work for the benefit of mankind.


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