Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

srin · Post by **srin** » 21 Nov 2014 00:43

ramana wrote:KaranM & Thakur_B, Can you guys go thru the whole Akash testing phase from day one and try to summarize what were the targets it was proofed on?

I think its a hit to kill missile with a proximity fuze.

The objective is not just planes.
Could be to negate the Fizzleya's solah dropped payloads.

Does it need a hit-to-kill ability if it has a 60 kg warhead ? A proximity detonation from a couple of dozen meters would still destroy the target

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Nov 2014 01:00

Err you didn't get what I was alluding to.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 21 Nov 2014 06:24

IA present order for 12 regiments Akash sam can cover entire indo-pak border while to cover indo-china border additional 18 regiments will be required for a total requirement of 30 regiments.

If no of barak2 regiments are ordered than no of akash regiments will go down by the same.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 21 Nov 2014 06:35

ramana wrote:KaranM & Thakur_B, Can you guys go thru the whole Akash testing phase from day one and try to summarize what were the targets it was proofed on?

I think its a hit to kill missile with a proximity fuze.

The objective is not just planes.
Could be to negate the Fizzleya's solah dropped payloads.

I made a list a while back to bust Hemant Rout's Akash missile "failed tests" list, only includes recent tests (excluding latest ones):

28th may 2012 - two missiles fired in volley against PTA, one hit other miss.

30th may 2012 - Missile aimed at a para barrel target. Successful.

23rd April 2014 - Two missiles fired, successfully, including receding target on the edge of envelope.
Two Akash missiles tested - The Hindu

30th May 2014- Missile targeted at para barrel, successful

6th June 2014- Missile targets PTA, successful.

17th June 2014:- Missile targets Banshee, successful.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Nov 2014 08:25

Some more info on the Akash Missile tests from The Hindu

Demonstrating multiple-target handling capability, two Akash surface-to-air supersonic missiles were simultaneously launched against two flying targets by Indian Air Force personnel from the Integrated Test Range (ITR), Chandipur, Odisha on Thursday.

Flying at supersonic speed of 2.5 Mach, one of the missiles engaged and destroyed a fast-moving Banshee, a small unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), at a slant range of 11 km and an altitude of 2.5 km.

Carrying a 55 kg pre-fragmented warhead, the missile achieved a direct hit against the target which was in an approaching mode, according to G. Chandramouli, Project Director, Akash weapon system.

As the second missile approached the other target (para flares dropped from a MIG 27) at a slant range of 24 km and an altitude of 5.5. km, the warhead detonated within the proximity of the target which was receding. He said multiple target handling and automated air defence functions were the important features of the indigenously developed Akash missile system.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 21 Nov 2014 09:20

Regarding the Akash, I'll make the obvious point that hit-to-kill (HTK) technology is incredibly useful. For instance, Lockheed Martin is developing the Cuda air-to-air missile (HTK). Because it won't carry a warhead, the Cuda is significantly smaller than an AMRAAM. (It's about the size of a Small Diameter Bomb.) Thus, the F-35 can carry 12 Cuda's internally instead of only 4-6 AMRAAM's.
http://theaviationist.com/2012/11/30/cuda/

I wonder what the DRDO will do with HTK technology. Interesting times ahead.

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 21 Nov 2014 12:47

Thakur_B wrote:
jamwal wrote:Is AAD suitable for non-ballistic targets ?
If a seeker less Akash can take down cruise missiles, then AAD interceptor with an active seeker and thrust vectoring can only do better.

Saurav Jha said

SajeevJino ‏@SajeevJino 16h16 hours ago

@SJha1618 Sir may I know which interceptor will be used for Cruise Missile Defence Program @StratPost

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 12h12 hours ago

@SajeevJino @StratPost AAD and Akash.
1:52 AM - 21 Nov 2014 · Details

kit · Post by **kit** » 21 Nov 2014 17:14

The American THAAD has nearly 70 to 80 missiles per battery to deal with saturation raids with an approximately 90 percent kill probability. .since both india and us face a common potential foe ..that could very well be a template for India as well

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 21 Nov 2014 20:28

Akash test fired on 4th consecutive day. Destroys fast-moving Banshee at 35 meter altitude!!! That's effective against Jaguar-style radar evading, low flying aircraft & cruise missiles where line of sight is available. Incredible!

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=21433

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Nov 2014 21:36

ramana wrote:KaranM & Thakur_B, Can you guys go thru the whole Akash testing phase from day one and try to summarize what were the targets it was proofed on?

I think its a hit to kill missile with a proximity fuze.

The objective is not just planes.
Could be to negate the Fizzleya's solah dropped payloads.

Ramanaji, the Akash was designed as a weapon with a miss distance << warhead radius (triggered by RF fuze) for optimum Pk. The radar accuracy was increased for this since seeker was dropped. However, further improvements may have continued to occur, increasing its performance beyond original design aims.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 21 Nov 2014 23:37

ramana wrote:Err you didn't get what I was alluding to.

To tell the truth, neither did I.

Can anyone provide any info on the ECCM capabilities of the system and also whether or not the system includes an EO back-up ?

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 21 Nov 2014 23:51

Really impressive capability. It's a home grown Iron Fist.

Are we going to deploy it near Paki borders to bring down their cheapo UAV nuisance ?

Ramu · Post by **Ramu** » 22 Nov 2014 04:56

Production agencies of any product should contract DRDO, fund the development of next generation and work with them as hand in glove as soon as they start producing it. Lets say in this case, the product is akash. Production agencies, be it a PSU or private should be given such an autonomy of decision making for their own benefit and for the benefit of our country by our MoD. 60-70 years of tighter control hasn't made the PSUs any stronger.

Same goes for every other projects. Such a cycle will kill the imports eventually one day.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Nov 2014 05:10

Sanjay wrote:
ramana wrote:Err you didn't get what I was alluding to.
To tell the truth, neither did I.

What R saar alluded to was fairly straightforward sir.. think Akash targeting special payloads not aircraft alone.

Can anyone provide any info on the ECCM capabilities of the system and also whether or not the system includes an EO back-up ?

ECCM will obviously be classified but there is enough info out there to note its capable (it passed comprehensive IAF ECM environment trials). No EO backup.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 22 Nov 2014 06:34

Yes I figured that part out - wondered what special payloads he was thinking of - alcms, pgms ?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 22 Nov 2014 07:13

Sanjay wrote:Yes I figured that part out - wondered what special payloads he was thinking of - alcms, pgms ?

Haseena atim bum

member_28802 · Post by **member_28802** » 22 Nov 2014 09:18

9 Akash Missiles Fired : All hit target : Proves 100% Reliability

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Nov 2014 09:47

Next step now develop a command guidance Trishul quickly for ships and targets where Barak-1 cannot be fitted on and then develop IR and Radio seeker equiped short range and long range missiles for anti PGm's, missiles and aircraft.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Nov 2014 11:30

What nonsense, how can an SDRE designed and built system dare to achieve 100 % kill rate.

The design team must be sent to the gulag, to make sure that, they don't dare to design some thing like this ever again. Examples must be made people. Or else the imports cannot be justified

PS: Akash will fail the real test of combat onlee

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 22 Nov 2014 11:37

Bankim wrote:9 Akash Missiles Fired : All hit target : Proves 100% Reliability

Why to they keep on alluding to Aakash as nuclear capable?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 22 Nov 2014 11:42

Ivanev wrote:
Bankim wrote:9 Akash Missiles Fired : All hit target : Proves 100% Reliability
Why to they keep on alluding to Aakash as nuclear capable?

Probably because, as we've learned in the thread recently, it can shoot down nuclear-tipped cruise missiles and even tossed bombs.

[Not trying to justify the nomenclature, rather just trying to make sense of it.]

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Nov 2014 12:16

I think it was done earlier to state we have tactical nukes weighing less than 55KG that can fit in an Akash type missile. Since, I think to keep reminding the Pakis, that will a combination of High KT thermonukes and Tactical Nukes we can ensure they are depopulated without much harm back to us from our Nukes.

Say Lahore which is so close to the Indian Border, rather than use a huge thermonuclear weapons, you would use say 15 small nukes to take the entire poulation west of the Indian border.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 22 Nov 2014 13:20

IA should go Akash sam in a big way @ 2 regiments per corps i.e, 28 regiments instead of 70km MRSAM Barak2.

Wide area top cover should be provided by 120km Barak 2 LRSAM by IAF.

Akash sam cost will be one third that of Barak2 sam.

srai · Post by **srai** » 22 Nov 2014 17:45

ramana wrote:KaranM & Thakur_B, Can you guys go thru the whole Akash testing phase from day one and try to summarize what were the targets it was proofed on?

...

If I remember correctly, Akash SAM can intercept targets flying at around M1.8 (600m/s) and maneuvering at around 8g. Minimum engagement altitude is 30m and maximum is 18,000m. Minimum range is 3.5km and maximum is 30km. So anything (aircrafts, bombs, PGMs, cruise missiles, etc) within those parameters would be fair game.

This gives insight to the various target profiles Akash has been validated on.

One year of Akash SAM in service

...
The IAF will be conducting user launches periodically this year from the Integrated Test Range is Odisha, and will test the Akash in various mission profiles including a) far boundary interception, b) near boundary interception, b) high altitude interception, c) crossing and receding target interception, d) low-altitude and near boundary, e) multiple target interception, f) low altitude and far boundary interception, g) mid-altitude and mid-range, h) crossing and approaching, in addition to others. These profiles were demonstrated during user trials between 2007-2010.
...

kit · Post by **kit** » 22 Nov 2014 18:12

seriously once India gets it hands on neutron weapons it can mark off a few hundred for special use on pakistan ! ..much better since it is close ..for china nothing better than megaton fusion weapons

kit · Post by **kit** » 22 Nov 2014 18:17

http://www.meggittdefenceuk.com/HTML/news-1.htm

very interesting !!

MDSL provided turnkey services on the Integrated Test Range in Odisha, India, for low level test firings of India’s Akash Missile.

Sea Skimming Jet 80 Banshees were used for the tests, with eight flights conducted and two missiles fired.

does that mean it has an anti missile capability against AShM s ?

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 22 Nov 2014 18:40

^ You hit the hammer dead center on the nail

How about we test Akash against a Brahmos? on a ship platform

Why this suggestion - I am suspect of Barak missiles capability, cost been the second point.

Read some news about them failing tests a while back, and no news of repeat testing. More important they have not been tested till end of the world like our Desi Akash

Joke On -

BTW, the Indian express article seems more on UK import Banshee drone instead of Akash. We should crown (or rename) Indian Express to fittingly IMPORT EXPRESS

Joke OFF

John · Post by **John** » 22 Nov 2014 21:11

Barak test failed due to integration issue with Fregat radar, Barak has been tested numerous times against sea skimming targets by Israel, Rsn and IN. Also akash capabilities against Ashm are limited it's min range and ceiling is too high. Barak is reported to have min range less than 500 meters and can intercept targets as low as 5 meters.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Nov 2014 21:50

kit, Try to post details of the Banshee targets here to get an idea of Akash capability.

http://www.meggittdefenceuk.com/HTML/Ba ... shee-1.htm
Also any one has details of the size of the para flare? Is it detected by radar or IR sensor?

srai, thanks. I think you get the picture.

Makes sense why IAF adopted the Akash first. Its area defence of the important targets from flying threats.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 22 Nov 2014 23:35

Is Army involved in these Akash tests ? As Army and Air Force both have the same versions, I hope that the experience gained by these tests is utilised by Army too.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 22 Nov 2014 23:38

Contrary to common perception, the Iron Dome is not automated: Its antimissile rockets are finally activated by very young IDF soldiers trained to distinguish between Hamās’ rockets and small aircraft, and to make decisions that can have serious international consequences.

http://www.tehelka.com/india-israel-def ... iet-boost/

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Nov 2014 02:39

ramana wrote:kit, Try to post details of the Banshee targets here to get an idea of Akash capability.

http://www.meggittdefenceuk.com/HTML/Ba ... shee-1.htm
Also any one has details of the size of the para flare? Is it detected by radar or IR sensor?

srai, thanks. I think you get the picture.

Makes sense why IAF adopted the Akash first. Its area defence of the important targets from flying threats.

Just checked - 55kg warhead with 50 m radius. Net, a missile can be guided and detonated above anywhere within 50 mtrs of a target, no matter how low it flies and its a goner.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 23 Nov 2014 09:21

From Dr Saraswat's presentation
- Astra can do 60g maneuvers.
- If Brahmos is flown at an altitude of 18 Kms without the low altitude maneuvering, the range can be as high as 600 Km (and yes, they are going to do an 'exercise' in that aspect).
- There are two production lines for Brahmos, one in Kerala and other in Hyderabad.
- AAD interceptor has 15 to 35g maneuver capability, and hence can take subsonic cruise missiles out with ease. System analysis shows that Brahmos level threats can be apprehended using AAD in cruise missile defence.
- CMD will require IIR seekers and automatic target recognition capabilities.
- The range of LFRJ cruise missile will be 600-1000 km, the problem lies with high density fuel.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Nov 2014 10:23

Thakur_B wrote: - If Brahmos is flown at an altitude of 18 Kms without the low altitude maneuvering, the range can be as high as 600 Km (and yes, they are going to do an 'exercise' in that aspect).

That would be a fly high and dive trajectory at Mach 3.5-4 at the target.

- AAD interceptor has 15 to 35g maneuver capability, and hence can take subsonic cruise missiles out with ease. System analysis shows that Brahmos level threats can be apprehended using AAD in cruise missile defence.

Would be good to develop a Naval Variant SAM of this Missile , They had mentioned a slant range of AAD would be in 100 km plus

kit · Post by **kit** » 23 Nov 2014 10:47

ramana wrote:kit, Try to post details of the Banshee targets here to get an idea of Akash capability.

http://www.meggittdefenceuk.com/HTML/Ba ... shee-1.htm
Also any one has details of the size of the para flare? Is it detected by radar or IR sensor?

srai, thanks. I think you get the picture.

Makes sense why IAF adopted the Akash first. Its area defence of the important targets from flying threats.

The banshee has a speed of nearly 650km/hr and can carry IR and chaff decoy flares , minimum altitude of 5 m (16ft) and maximum of 7000 m (23000 ft) [depending on config ] ..can carry radar altimeter that provides a sea skimming mode ..

was trying to find an RCS for the target but dimensions

Wing span 2.49 metres (8ft 2in)
Length 2.85 to 2.95metres (9ft 5in to 9ft 8in)
Height 0.78 metres (2ft 6in)
Wing area 2.42m2

kit · Post by **kit** » 23 Nov 2014 10:50

a good capability against all types of cruise missiles , from land or sea launched ..no doubt

kit · Post by **kit** » 23 Nov 2014 10:53

now you understand why squadrons stand vigil over eastern frontier .,.a massed Chinese cruise missile attack will run into this gauntlet

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 23 Nov 2014 18:05

kit wrote:now you understand why squadrons stand vigil over eastern frontier .,.a massed Chinese cruise missile attack will run into this gauntlet

Should not we be mass producing what Indian scientists have very well tested to a high degree of accuracy ie Akash missile systems and similar. Considering that at the most, we will need to upgrade radars when facing various kind of threats. Mass production, in huge numbers (at least 3 times the requirements at the eastern sector + reserves), of such a well tested missile can only add to the defense, at the Eastern sector, at any point of time.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Nov 2014 19:24

we are mass producting as fast as BEL+BDL can. there is a $2 billion order backlog and a case can be made to speed up production using a pvt sector assembly line also if funds are available y-o-y

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Nov 2014 20:49

Kit assuming the Banshee doesn't have radar absorbing/reflecting materials the cross section would be the wing span in ahead and the length in side view. If wings are somehow radar evading then take the diameter of the fuselage and add say 50% of wing span.