Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Dec 2014 19:56

I was under the impression that the A4 was a 2000 Km range missile. Do we know what was the simulated warhead weight that was carried by the missile.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 02 Dec 2014 19:57

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 02 Dec 2014 20:09

Pratyush wrote:I was under the impression that the A4 was a 2000 Km range missile. Do we know what was the simulated warhead weight that was carried by the missile.

No A4 was declared a 4000 Kms missile with a one tonne warhead.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Dec 2014 21:27

So tested to middle range. Any splash down video?
Same throw weight of one tonne?
Looks like they are testing various trajectories/footprints.

nash · Post by **nash** » 09 Dec 2014 16:07

Press Trust of India ‏@PTI_News 29m29 minutes ago

Advanced version of indigenously developed Pinaka Mark-2 rocket successfully test fired from a defence base in Odisha.

Is there any other info on it?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Dec 2014 19:55

Advanced version of indigenous Pinaka Mark-II rocket successfully test fired

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 09 Dec 2014 23:28

NRao wrote:Advanced version of indigenous Pinaka Mark-II rocket successfully test fired

Basic question: How is latest Pinaka different from the Nasr Rocket. I could think of following dimensions

1. The nuclear warhead of Nasr
2. Single v/s multiple rocket system
3. Possibly the area neutralization concept
4. Part of different doctrines
5. Cost

Any other dimension that needs that I should look into.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 09 Dec 2014 23:46

Pinaka and Nasr are different class of weapons

Pinaka is for artillery support ,mostly with dumb rockets and WS-2 ( paki name Nasr ) is a ballistic missile similar to our prahaar/pragati system.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 10 Dec 2014 05:02

Shaun wrote:Pinaka and Nasr are different class of weapons

Pinaka is for artillery support ,mostly with dumb rockets and WS-2 ( paki name Nasr ) is a ballistic missile similar to our prahaar/pragati system.

Pinaka-2 is a smart weapon with GPS guidance and trajectory correction system. And OFB can produce them in huge numbers annually.

kvraghavaiah · Post by **kvraghavaiah** » 10 Dec 2014 19:50

The canister launch of AGNI-V should happen around this time. Does any one here know the date of launch?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Dec 2014 08:49

A few days ago, I saw a Brahmos launcher in the Delhi cant area. The curious part was that it had the Grey paint scheme that is associated with Air force ground vehicles. But it had no roundel on it.

mody · Post by **mody** » 11 Dec 2014 18:04

Has the weight of the AGNI III missile been reduced to 22 tons? The wiki page says that the latest operational version of AGNI III weighs only 22 tons, as opposed to the previous 49 tons??
If this is indeed true, then it would a complete redesign of the missile, on the lines of Agni IV from Agni II.

I have never come across any reports that said the Agni III missile has been redesigned to reduce its weight. The references that wiki cites for supporting the claim, are not conclusive.

kvraghavaiah · Post by **kvraghavaiah** » 11 Dec 2014 18:17

mody wrote:Has the weight of the AGNI III missile been reduced to 22 tons? The wiki page says that the latest operational version of AGNI III weighs only 22 tons, as opposed to the previous 49 tons??
If this is indeed true, then it would a complete redesign of the missile, on the lines of Agni IV from Agni II.

I have never come across any reports that said the Agni III missile has been redesigned to reduce its weight. The references that wiki cites for supporting the claim, are not conclusive.

The information about weight reduction in the wiki may be wrong. AGNI-3 can not weigh so less, coming to less than half of previous weight. Much smaller Agni-2 weighs about 16 tons.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 11 Dec 2014 18:29

Pratyush wrote:A few days ago, I saw a Brahmos launcher in the Delhi cant area. The curious part was that it had the Grey paint scheme that is associated with Air force ground vehicles. But it had no roundel on it.

http://i.imgur.com/QFfjsVA.jpg
Is the airforce inducting Brahmos MALs ?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 11 Dec 2014 21:13

They must be inducting the missile as well. But it is strange to publicly host the induction of the TEL without mention of the missile itself.

Perhaps a unit is in the process of being raised, but for now only has dummy ordnance? <guesstimate>

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2014 02:13

Thakur B, IAF has purchased LACM Brahmos as well. I had mentioned this in one of my earlier posts.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1575585

Karan M wrote:Sneaky AF been purchasing Brahmos SSMs!

http://164.100.47.132/LssNew/psearch/QR ... qref=90863

(a) & (b): BrahMos Supersonic Cruise Missile has been developed initially as Anti-ship version for launch from ship to ship for the Indian Navy and inducted in Service. Later, land to land version has been developed for the Indian Army and Indian Air Force. This version has been inducted in the Army and is under production for Army and Air Force. Test also has been carried out from ship to land target. Coastal battery from Mobile Complex on land to ship is also available for the Indian Navy. Air-version of the missile is being developed for SU-30 Mk-I for Indian Air Force.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Dec 2014 07:26

^^^

Given the inter-service rivalry and differing target priorities between the IA and the IAF, one can expect duplication of weapon platforms. For the Brahmos LACM, the IAF would focus more on taking out radars, air-defence nodes and airfields while the IA would focus more on taking out tactical C&C and high-value bunkers.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Dec 2014 08:49

Yes, for IA destroying a enemy railway bridge carrying enemy tanks and artillery would be more important than taking out a radar site.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 12 Dec 2014 14:01

If there was a proper Integrated Defense HQ (instead of the namesake that exists now), there would not be a need for this duplication across services. IHQ would identify the targets for Brahmos LACM, finalize the numbers required, deploy corresponding IA operated missile groups with a portion assigned for supporting IAF under the command of IAF mission planners.
Same could also be done as MCMBs under Naval command and have the personnel/ units rotate every 'N' years gaining experience across different roles. This would be real joint warfare from ground up.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2014 15:04

I think its a good development. IAF even had Prithvi-2s.

arun · Post by **arun** » 13 Dec 2014 13:52

X Posted from the "Indian naval Discussion" thread.

LR-SAM aka Barak 8 will be installed on INS Kolkata in 2015.

Vertical launch unit and MF Star guidance radar is already installed on the INS Kolkatta and all one has to do is “take delivery of the missile, load it and fire” per Capt. Tarun Sobti, CO of the vessel. INS Kolkatta will carry 32 LR-SAM’s:

INS Kolkata to fire long range missile in 2015

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 15 Dec 2014 05:16

Why is verything so quiet on the Agni-5 canister launch front?

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 15 Dec 2014 08:46

mody wrote:Has the weight of the AGNI III missile been reduced to 22 tons? The wiki page says that the latest operational version of AGNI III weighs only 22 tons, as opposed to the previous 49 tons??
If this is indeed true, then it would a complete redesign of the missile, on the lines of Agni IV from Agni II.

I have never come across any reports that said the Agni III missile has been redesigned to reduce its weight. The references that wiki cites for supporting the claim, are not conclusive.

Namaskar to everybody.

I am a reader of BR for a long time . I am delighted to be the part of discussion now.

Weight of Agni III is reduced to 22 tons. This is confirmed by None other than Tessy Thomas herself.

Ms. Thomas said that while the two-stage Agni-III missile capable of hitting targets up to 3,000 km away weighed 50 tonnes, the team was able to bring down the weight of the missile to 22 tonnes.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 191824.ece

If we have a Agni IV with 17 tons of weight with 1.3 Dia motor than there is no reason why A3 can not have a wight of 22 tons. In an article, Prasun Sengupta had claimed that weight of A5 is 26 tons only. 50 tons as claimed is the weight with launcher. DRDO is not as transparent as it used to be in the time of V K Saraswat.

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 15 Dec 2014 08:48

Bheeshma wrote:Why is verything so quiet on the Agni-5 canister launch front?

They had said that it will be done by September end.

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 15 Dec 2014 09:05

Shaun wrote:Pinaka and Nasr are different class of weapons

Pinaka is for artillery support ,mostly with dumb rockets and WS-2 ( paki name Nasr ) is a ballistic missile similar to our prahaar/pragati system.

But the photographs of Nasr what I have seen are of launch similar to rocket launcher and they are not launched vertically like Prahar.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 15 Dec 2014 13:46

Alwar: Mafia stalls army missile launch pad plans

This is mafia land, a rugged countryside dotted with hills and forests in Rajasthan’s Alwar district, where a mining cartel holds sway.

Their diktat is the last word and their orders executed with military precision by villagers.

This influential mining mafia – involved in illegal lifting of stones used in construction work— has held up a proposed army missile launch pad in Kithoor area, about 150 km from Delhi.

Officials confirmed that a team of around 150 members of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was attacked and forced to leave by angry villagers in September.

The missile launch pad is among the two major projects planned by the DRDO in the state — the other is a missile interception base in Pali district.

DRDO has already acquired a huge chunk of forest land in both the locations.

The area is largely inhabited by the Mev community, which is involved in illegal mining.

The villagers were allegedly told by the mining cartel that the army would carry out explosions in the area and that they would be forced to leave their homes.

Work was stopped after the attack and DRDO machinery is now lying idle.

Kasim Khan, sarpanch of Khoha Bas village near the proposed missile base, confirmed the attack and said the villagers were wary they would not be able to graze their cattle in the forest.

However, Alwar district forest officer PD Gupta said “grazing” was just an excuse.

“Illegal mining is the real issue. The community protesting the project is largely involved in illegal mining even in the forest areas,” Gupta told HT.

With the mafia holding sway among the villagers, even a camp organised by the district administration and forest officials failed to persuade them in favour of the project.

Fear of the mafia — who allegedly use strong-arm tactics against opponents — runs so deep that residents of Khoha Bas village warned this correspondent against visiting the proposed army bas

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 16 Dec 2014 12:34

DRDO completes development trials for Pinaka Mk II rocket

India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) completed development of its 214 mm Pinaka Mk II unguided rocket with trials at the Chandipur range in Odisha from 9-12 December.

The development of the Mk II version is being run by the DRDO's Armament Research & Development Establishment (ARDE) and the trials co-ordinated by the Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE).

The Pinaka Mk II rocket has pre-frag, incendiary, practice and three types of submunition warheads. According to sources, a total of 20 rockets were fired in the four-day-long trial to ranges of 20-60 km. The Pinaka Mk I rocket has a maximum range of 38 km.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Dec 2014 14:35

Ankar wrote:DRDO completes development trials for Pinaka Mk II rocket

India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) completed development of its 214 mm Pinaka Mk II unguided rocket with trials at the Chandipur range in Odisha from 9-12 December.

The development of the Mk II version is being run by the DRDO's Armament Research & Development Establishment (ARDE) and the trials co-ordinated by the Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE).

The Pinaka Mk II rocket has pre-frag, incendiary, practice and three types of submunition warheads. According to sources, a total of 20 rockets were fired in the four-day-long trial to ranges of 20-60 km. The Pinaka Mk I rocket has a maximum range of 38 km.

FFS, Pinaka - II is a GPS guided rocket. A cursory google search will tell that to whoever writes for Jane's.

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 16 Dec 2014 14:42

FFS, Pinaka - II is a GPS guided rocket. A cursory google search will tell that to whoever writes for Jane's.

But I can recall an interview of Avinash Chander where he said that Pinaka III is under development. It is same as Pinaka II with some satellite guidance. So I doubt whether Pinaka II has that guidance. It wil be very good if Pinaka MK II has the guidance. We may expect Pinaka MK III with guidance and higher range.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Dec 2014 14:59

Vipul Dave wrote:

FFS, Pinaka - II is a GPS guided rocket. A cursory google search will tell that to whoever writes for Jane's.

But I can recall an interview of Avinash Chander where he said that Pinaka III is under development. It is same as Pinaka II with some satellite guidance. So I doubt whether Pinaka II has that guidance. It wil be very good if Pinaka MK II has the guidance. We may expect Pinaka MK III with guidance and higher range.

The 120 Km version Pinaka with a larger rocket has been in planning stage as long back as 2005. It will require a new launcher and everything else. The current Pinaka Mk II rocket fits in the existing launcher and loader. It has a wire strip GPS antenna and IMI's trajectory correction system in its nose.

http://i.imgur.com/sU3NvOa.jpg

You can see the fins for trajectory correction system on the nose if you zoom in enough.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 16 Dec 2014 15:02

This was discussed sometime back. What needs to be seen is whether this provides Munition Guidance or Land Navigation to Pinaka Batteries. I seriously doubt the CEP in inches claim....

India will soon produce its first tactical weapons guidance device under licence from the US Honeywell.

The device, TALIN 2000 (or Tactical Advanced Land Inertial Navigator), can guide a weapon to hit a designated target with near-zero error, ensuring its precision destruction with minimal collateral damage.

The device can be installed for one-time use on bombs, missiles and rockets and gets destroyed in the explosive impact after leading the weapon to its target.

The chip, latest in its generation, can also be used on vehicles or person as it is small and wearable, company sources told India Strategic defence magazine.

Honeywell has signed an agreement with Tata Power SED to produce this sophisticated device, after clearance from the US government, and install it on systems like the Pinaka Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher (MBRL) and the Akash surface to air missiles, the two weapon systems the Tata Group is producing under licence from DRDO.

As of now, Tata Power will install the device on both these systems but its use can be multiplied as desired.

The agreement was signed Sep 29 on the sidelines of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Washington.

TALIN works without GPS and does not depend on any wireless signals. Its induction is expected to help increase troop safety and maximize mission success.

"TALIN represents the latest in GPS-free navigation and positioning technology, designed to improve asset safety and ultimately mission success," according to Arijit Ghosh, president of Honeywell Aerospace, India.

"By partnering with Tata Power SED on the production of TALIN, we are aligning with the government's aim of increasing locally manufactured technologies for India's defense industry and giving the Indian armed forces an easy-to-justify option for navigation on the 21st century battlefield," he said.

The value of precision weapons, or smart bombs, is great as precision means fewer shots and precise shooting of a designated target, which can either be a building, vehicle or a terrorist.

The Honeywell device can also be installed on artillery shells or many dumb bombs.

Says Honeywell: "TALIN is a highly accurate, shock-stabilized position and pointing inertial navigation system designed for use on a wide range of military and commercial platforms.

"It provides users with extremely precise attitude and position awareness with or without the use of GPS... TALIN is ideal for environments where GPS signals are unavailable.

"More than 15,000 systems from the TALIN family are currently operating on more than 60 military and commercial platforms worldwide."

India had been buying a similar device earlier from French weapons technology company Sagem.

Honeywell has been authorized by the US government to share this technology for manufacture in India but for use only by the Indian armed forces.

India is the second country after Germany to get this patented technology from the US.

DRDO head Avinash Chander has said that while DRDO had brought down the import content for Indian armed forces from some 70 percent to 50-55 percent in recent years, critical guidance and seeker technologies and sensors were still required from outside India.

The Pinaka Mk II has a range of 65 km, compared to 40 of Mk I, which had an error probability of one meter with the help of GPS. But GPS signals can be distorted by the operator or jammed by an enemy. Talin 2000 has an error probability of only a few inches, has its own mind, is low cost and high technology, and also one of the best possible battlefield navigation systems.

Said Rahul Chaudhry, CEO, Tata Power Strategic Engineering Division: "We are proud to have completed this technology sharing arrangement, which will offer the Indian armed forces a state-of-the-art inertial navigation technology, made in India and with local product support."

Honeywell will license the design, hardware and expertise to assemble, test and, in the future, build the production kits for TALIN to Tata Power SED.

The agreement will be extended to cover Honeywell's TALIN 3000, 4000 and 5000 products, which offer varying capabilities to suit a wide range of operational requirements.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Dec 2014 15:12

vaibhav.n wrote:This was discussed sometime back. What needs to be seen is whether this provides Munition Guidance or Land Navigation to Pinaka Batteries. I seriously doubt the CEP in inches claim....

Vaibhav, Talin 2000 GPS/INS module is for the launcher. The rockets have their own GPS antenna.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 16 Dec 2014 15:23

Hmm....As i thought, wonder why they have spun the story for a guidance system.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Dec 2014 15:34

vaibhav.n wrote:Hmm....As i thought, wonder why they have spun the story for a guidance system.

Apparently it will supersede the Sagem 30 system currently used for Pinaka.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Dec 2014 17:08

Looks like DRDO is keeping its inhouse RLG INS for its strat missiles.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 16 Dec 2014 17:09

The rockets themselves might use the gom3 chip.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Dec 2014 17:42

Karan M wrote:Looks like DRDO is keeping its inhouse RLG INS for its strat missiles.

I believe it hasn't hit mass production yet. We should see spin off variants for general purpose systems and aircrafts in the coming years.

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Dec 2014 19:21

Thakur_B wrote:...

The 120 Km version Pinaka with a larger rocket has been in planning stage as long back as 2005. It will require a new launcher and everything else. The current Pinaka Mk II rocket fits in the existing launcher and loader. It has a wire strip GPS antenna and IMI's trajectory correction system in its nose.

...

It would be good if Pinaka Mk III (120km version) could also make use of the same launch vehicles and other infrastructures. Instead of six missiles per launch box, maybe only one/two/three "fatter" missiles would be carried.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Dec 2014 19:49

srai wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:...

The 120 Km version Pinaka with a larger rocket has been in planning stage as long back as 2005. It will require a new launcher and everything else. The current Pinaka Mk II rocket fits in the existing launcher and loader. It has a wire strip GPS antenna and IMI's trajectory correction system in its nose.

...
It would be good if Pinaka Mk III (120km version) could also make use of the same launch vehicles and other infrastructures. Instead of six missiles per launch box, maybe only one/two/three "fatter" missiles would be carried.

How do you plan to fit fatter missiles in the same tube

The 120 Km rocket is supposed to be 2.8 meters longer (7.2 meters).
All the known parameters about this long range Pinaka rocket scream Prahaar missile.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Dec 2014 19:52

Thakur_B wrote:
Karan M wrote:Looks like DRDO is keeping its inhouse RLG INS for its strat missiles.
I believe it hasn't hit mass production yet. We should see spin off variants for general purpose systems and aircrafts in the coming years.

Saurav Jha
‏@SJha1618
RCI is working on RLG-INS for ground systems also.
3:44 am - 16 Dec 2014

and helicopters. The French may or may not come on board as partners

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/544820426426167296