Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28932 » 12 Jan 2015 08:40

Sagar G wrote:What "original form" ??? When the specs of mk.2 are yet to be decided and it is yet to start where does the question of it being dropped come from ??? First prove that the program had started by the date before pontificating DRDO about "wasting time and lethargic approach".


Do not try to complecate the issue. I am refering to the DRDO revalation about Akash MK2. They themself had said that missile shall be tested by Mid 2013.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby rohitvats » 12 Jan 2015 09:26

Victor wrote:IMHO, instead of "letting others know", it is a far better practice to SHOW them after the fact. The PSUs have built up an unfortunate reputation for trumpeting things and then failing to deliver. There's more to this than we know. There has to be a better reason for suddenly revealing these things than the hard Nationalist govt in charge.


MODERATOR NOTE:

Victor - I'm calling you out for trolling. If you cannot add anything to the discussion, it is better not to post then make such inane comments as above.

If you had bothered to look around, DRDO always had tons of material on technology front in public domain. It's just that most of it is scattered and it take some perseverance to put it all together. I've done that in past and others who are interested do that as well. It is
just that DRDO has put this out in a single publication.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 12 Jan 2015 11:30

^^^

About time! He hasn't added anything new to the discussions other than repeat his "feelings" (or ignorance) over and over again. Maybe a separate thread needs to be created for whingers.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2015 14:22

Vipul Dave wrote:
Sagar G wrote:What "original form" ??? When the specs of mk.2 are yet to be decided and it is yet to start where does the question of it being dropped come from ??? First prove that the program had started by the date before pontificating DRDO about "wasting time and lethargic approach".


Do not try to complecate the issue. I am refering to the DRDO revalation about Akash MK2. They themself had said that missile shall be tested by Mid 2013.


Are mentioning details "complicating the issue"?
Boss, use common sense. We have two SAM programs both of which are higher priority than Akash Mk2. One is getting Mk1 production units flowing to IA (which has started). Second, get LRSAM operational. Which is still in progress. Apart from that there is the pressing need for QRSAM as OSA-AKM/SA-8 units are virtually obsolete. Akash Mk-2 is not right now the first priority, LRSAM is.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby KBDagha » 12 Jan 2015 15:46

INS based on MEMS sensors was devleoped for Gruthma and Nirbhay.
Electro-Mechanical Actuation System (EMAS): Successfully flight-tested in Gruthma and Nirbhay

Which is the new missile/system?


source: http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/DRD ... -ebook.pdf

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby nash » 12 Jan 2015 18:48

I think "Gruthma" probably refer to 100km+ range and 1000Kg Smart Bomb, which recently has been tested.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2015 19:02

You might well be right. It clearly requires actuators (which means movable controls ie fins) and a sophisticated MEMS INS.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby nash » 12 Jan 2015 19:09

Karan M wrote:You might well be right. It clearly requires actuators (which means movable controls ie fins) and a sophisticated MEMS INS.


Yes that is one reason and other one might be in name

Gruthma = Gruth + ma and Gravity = "Gruthvakarsan" in hindi .. :)

Only way we can find out if some one asked DRDO people, possibly in coming AI-15

And if we are right then we have Spice 1000 -2000 equivalent.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sagar G » 12 Jan 2015 20:37

Vipul Dave wrote:Do not try to complecate the issue. I am refering to the DRDO revalation about Akash MK2. They themself had said that missile shall be tested by Mid 2013.


I am not trying to kaamplicate the issue but have asked you to do a fairly simple thing given your extensive knaawlidge about the program. Give me a link where a DRDO guy revealed that we are up and running regarding Akash Mk.2. If you can prove that the program has been running based on forces specified QR then we can further talk, otherwise I won't waste my time further.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sagar G » 12 Jan 2015 20:41

nash wrote:Yes that is one reason and other one might be in name

Gruthma = Gruth + ma and Gravity = "G*ruthvakarsan" in hindi .. :)


Missing a *u, but still nice catch.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 12 Jan 2015 20:43

Please take this Akash Mk 2 discussion to following thread. Reading same crap about what should have been and has been without anything to back it up is getting annoying. Take some hint from how Rohit Vats backs his claims with facts not random noises.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4631.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2015 20:53

Nash,
Even better, DRDO tends to have these names with deeper meanings. Eg Samudrika for Naval EW (straightforward) or Tarang (Wave, Spectrum iirc) for a RWR. Of course, some are named after a series of names eg radars after star constellations but you may have well hit the nail on the head!

Now this is good digging!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 12 Jan 2015 21:45

nash wrote:I think "Gruthma" probably refer to 100km+ range and 1000Kg Smart Bomb, which recently has been tested.

Very good guess. Another possibility is the Missile Launched PGM (MLPGM). They would be launched from Prithvi. It was first revealed by Dr. Saraswat in his talk at IITB. It most probably is unpowered, has a lattice tailfin configuration and has all the other bells and whistles (see picture). The project is marked as "Missions and Technology Completed" on page 91. Based on the other entries in the list, it has been flight tested at least once. All those Prithvi tests :wink:
Image

NAG has had so many offshoots. Helina, MLPGM, and also the PGM shown on page 93 (also shown below). The last one seems to have a very small booster just behind the fins. It is probably a Brimstone/Hellfire equivalent for launch from high or fast flying vehicles like UAVs and fighter jets.
Image

Another nugget that I did not know earlier was the penetration of CLGM. So CLGM can penetrate >750 mm of RHA, whereas Nag can penetrate 800mm of ERA protected RHA.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2015 22:06

CLGM is dual charge too. Thats behind ERA.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_20317 » 12 Jan 2015 22:16

Gruthma = Gruth + ma and Gravity = "Gruthvakarsan" and Ma could be short for Maarak

Gruthvakarsan Maarak == Gravity Bomb.

Great job finding that out bhailog.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby pankajs » 12 Jan 2015 22:24

One mystery solved. Great job!
Supersonic Cruise Missile BrahMos

This is a universal missile capable of being launched from multiple platforms based on land, sea, sub-sea, and air against both sea and land targets. BrahMos has a range of 290 km with a speed of more than 2.8 Mach. Different versions of BrahMos missiles have been deployed on naval warships and mobile complexes for the Indian Navy and Indian Army. BrahMos has undergone successful flight trials from Pontoon (underwater) and Mobile Autonomous Launcher (MAL). Test firings from INS Teg and INS Tarkash destroyed the target with precision. The weapon systems have already been installed on four ships and are progressively being installed on six more ships. Indian Army has carried out regular practice firing for operationalising the second regiment. Qualification testing of F2 section (2 nos.), manufacturing using indigenous material and 100 per cent structural testing of F1 section (1 no.) has been completed. Static test of indigenously developed High Thrust Motor (HTM) was successfully conducted.Development of thermo-stable fuel (CEL-16) for ramjet engine operation (T-6 equivalent) and static testing of the fuel at various Air/Fuel (A/F) ratios were completed.Tests for two indigenous warheads (live) were also done.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby pankajs » 12 Jan 2015 22:27

Long-Range Surface-to Air Missile

....
Home-on-Target (HOT) flight tests with fully integrated missile in flight configuration were conducted and post-flight analysis was carried out. Weapon control system, radar (MFSTAR), vertical launch unit for two ships have been delivered. System mounting/installation onboard first ship has been completed. Production transfer plan have been finalised

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby pankajs » 12 Jan 2015 22:31

Progress on Composites

Large monolithic SiC motors were designed and realized for future projects to reduce the missile weight. Acceptance testing is under progress. Grid-stiffened air frame structures for Agni class of missiles have been designed and realised for future missiles. Composite rocket motor has been fabricated using high-strength resin system and demonstrated factor of safety by conducting burst test. Composite canister realisation is under progress for Agni 5 with facilities created within ASL. After qualification testing of indigenous composite canister for PJ-10, two missile launches were successful with this canister. Qualifications testing of F1 section and radome for PJ-10 have been successfully conducted. Canister for Agni 4 has been designed with composite and metal. A fully automated inspection system based on air-coupled ultrasonic technique for Agni 5 canister is being developed.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shravanp » 12 Jan 2015 23:06

This is amazing. A lot of subsystem hardware are now achieving 'completion' statuses. NaMo effect :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 13 Jan 2015 03:34

skekatpuray wrote:This is amazing. A lot of subsystem hardware are now achieving 'completion' statuses. NaMo effect :)

It is amazing indeed. But, no matter how much I want to, Namo does not deserve any credit for this. Ironically, all this was achieved in the UPA-regime! Anyways, this is OT for this thread.

I am very interested in where the ducted SFRJ will be used. It has a huge potential as it combines the advantage of a liquid-fueled and solid-fueled ramjet engine. It will be throttle-able like liquid fueled missiles while retaining the easy storage and transportation characteristics (pretty similar to standard munitions). Also such an engine is simpler than the LFRJ and has a larger envelop and range than a solid fuels ramjet engine.

Potential uses are in Brahmos-M, Akash Mk3(?), other S2A and long-range A2A missiles (Meteor has a ducted SFRJ engine).

P.S. So now, I have read about 3 high density fuel (T-6 equivalents) for LFRJs: CEL-16, DPCR-2 and DPCR-3. I have also seen 2 engines (with 2 and 4 intakes) for the the same. Good going.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 13 Jan 2015 04:17

skekatpuray wrote:This is amazing. A lot of subsystem hardware are now achieving 'completion' statuses. NaMo effect :)


Let's not get carried away. These are years of hard R&D work bearing fruit. Slap on the back should be given to Indian scientists and engineers who have persevered. Where NaMo could be given credit for is in sharing openly these accomplishments with the public. Kudos for that!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Jan 2015 07:15

indranilroy wrote:
NAG has had so many offshoots. Helina, MLPGM, and also the PGM shown on page 93 (also shown below). The last one seems to have a very small booster just behind the fins. It is probably a Brimstone/Hellfire equivalent for launch from high or fast flying vehicles like UAVs and fighter jets.
Image


Same guess here. Looks like just half the motor that Nag had.

Another nugget that I did not know earlier was the penetration of CLGM. So CLGM can penetrate >750 mm of RHA, whereas Nag can penetrate 800mm of ERA protected RHA.


Nag's warhead was capable of about 1206 mm penetration in mild steel, so 800-1000 should be my guess as well.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby rohitvats » 13 Jan 2015 08:58

For me, the biggest news is LOBL capability in HELINA. It means we've reached a pretty mature level as far as sensors are concerned. Only thing is, where do we stand on FPA? In house for these missile or coming from foreign vendor?

I hope Spike is the last foreign ATGM we import - And DRDO can develop a man-portable ATGM for the Army. Further, DRDO should start working in advance for ATGM solution for Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV). We should build this into contract that whoever wins FICV tender has to partner with DRDO for ATGM solution.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Pratyush » 13 Jan 2015 09:26

Will we be able to integrate the HELINA on the AH 64. In order to be autonomous when it comes to munitions for that purchase.

Second, when it comes to spike. I would like to see a future domestic Indian product be able to utilize the launcher that is picked up for it. Or a domestic launcher is developed that can use both the Spike and a future domestic product.

The way it was done for the Milan & Faggot.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 13 Jan 2015 10:13

rohit, FPAs are imported for now. same as with most missile manufacturers ww. but we can change that if we invest in fabs for the fpa's.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby pankajs » 13 Jan 2015 10:33

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vympel_R-77
A further product-improvement of the R-77, designated the R-77M1 and then the R-77-PD, was to feature a ramjet propulsion device. This missile was destined for the MiG 1.44 that for the MFI program. The weapon has a laser fuse and an expanding rod warhead that can destroy the variable sized targets. However, due to funding shortage and eventual cancellation of the MiG 1.44, development of this model may have stopped by 1999; no information or announcement regarding the R-77M and R-77-PD has appeared since.

Given India's interest in Meteor and JV with the Russians on SFDR, it is likely the R-77-PD being revived or something on that line. The technology can later be exploited for other roles. I just hope that the JV is better organized on TOT than Bramhos JV.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28932 » 13 Jan 2015 11:45

Karan M wrote:
Are mentioning details "complicating the issue"?
Boss, use common sense. We have two SAM programs both of which are higher priority than Akash Mk2. One is getting Mk1 production units flowing to IA (which has started). Second, get LRSAM operational. Which is still in progress. Apart from that there is the pressing need for QRSAM as OSA-AKM/SA-8 units are virtually obsolete. Akash Mk-2 is not right now the first priority, LRSAM is.



Here the issue is that If this project is not your priority then why do you go to media, announce the testing timing, give detail about specification, tell the people that new missile shall have 12 KM additional range and powerful booster, shall use new Radar, high speed etc. etc.
Had this missile been developed by now, Our Air force and Army would have been using this missile with an extended range with higher kill probability at a little additional cost. It becomes more important in context that It has a huge order. Imagine a situation in which this multi-billion US Dollar order indigenous missile with additional 40% range and high kill probability would have added a lethality to our armed forces. We would have get it at a low cost and quick time. It is economics.

This additional lethality would have come at a very low cost and quick time had this project been completed as per the announcement.

Any way everybody has their opinion. Give the discussion a rest.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kvraghavaiah » 13 Jan 2015 12:43

As CAG pointed out, many scientists and leaders in DRDO are working with lack of interest, unprofessional decisions and no vision.

1. Akash MK2 development was declared more than 5 yesr ago. US or Israel or China or even Pakistan would have done it in just 1 or 2 years and deploy it by now.
2. Invention of the chromium coating on the tip of the ballistic missile to reduce air drag was publicised almost 4-5 years ago. All other countries would have alredy implemented it while India invented it with no implementation for so many years.
3. Why the hell are Agni-3 and Agni-5 having a heavy steel motor casing for 1st stage even after so many years?
4. Why could not a man portable anti tank missile be developed from NAG for so many years?
5. Why is there no close in weapon system with quick reaction missiles? Why is Maitri joint project never advancing?

Gross unexcusable blunders by DRDO guys.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby pankajs » 13 Jan 2015 13:06

Let me comment on man portable NAG. Did the forces request for its development by the DRDO lets say before 2012?

IIRC, the same CAG slammed DRDO for initiating project that was NOT requested by the forces. We CAN NOT slam the DRDO for taking initiative as well as not taking initiative can we?

So while DRDO has its faults please do not blame it for things beyond its control. Wasn't there a recent report that DRDO was squeezed for funds and manpower for the last 10 years. Also, CAG is not the best judge of projects and products that require a lot of R&D and we also have to remember that R&D is prone to failures.

List your cribs after doing some research.
Last edited by pankajs on 13 Jan 2015 13:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Yagnasri » 13 Jan 2015 13:14

DRDO working in babu dominated GOI culture wherein political leadership was mostly interested in malai eating with gora deals or dancing with natashas. If with all this DRDO did some great work. It could always do better of course. But to say that DRDO did almost nothing is wrong. ISRO and DRDO are to two agency which did exceedingly well considering all the horrible things what GOI done and created around us.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28108 » 13 Jan 2015 13:36

Simple thing - when they ask for testing facilities - the masters hummed and hawed. When they ask for production facilities and firm orders - again hummed na dhawed. Simple thing for eg is when they have to outsource for some metallurgical production of a particular type - no one will produce unless they get a firm order which is not allowed which is why they had to suffer so much on the metallurgical front.The problems are a lot and telling that people in DRDO are lazy is a bit stretched- you should see the people who work there - put in a lot of hours. Simple example - for one project that shall not be named they were asked to outsource but not hire. Problem was the company to which it was outsourced could not keep a stable head of engineers and so by the time one set of people understood the project they left for fresher pastures especially since many think that if they work in the outsourced company they have a shot of being hired in DRDO and when they realize it isn't going to happen , with the skills they ahve learnt they are lapped up by companies (abroad) .Finally one senior engineer had to do the entire coding himself out of frustration as things did not move for quite some time. If you don't enthuse and hire people how do you expect things to move the way you want.if you cannot procure materials easily - how do you expect things to move fast.Of course there will be black sheep in every department but to cry hoarse that they are lazy is not true.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28108 » 13 Jan 2015 13:40

Also in research can you so easily have time lines when countries struggle to produce things.How many countries have all these things with the funds so provided ? How many countries have something equivalent to Agni 5.The very fact that these things are difficult to produce is a statement in itself.We have had stumbling blocks which is undeniable but no one is really going to give that Tech easily. Guess why there were rocks clunking in cryogenic motors- the great game is played both ways so there are no friends in this - only competitors and no one gives an inch easily.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kit » 13 Jan 2015 15:11

Pretty sure Indian missile technology is at par and even ahead of the Europeans in most areas ..and seeker tech is fast catching up to .. now to get some new semi conductor foundries for DRDO :twisted: Wasnt there some news that the higher price and delay in new Israeli AWACS for india was due to delay in procuring components and rare earth material (well well ! )

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28640 » 13 Jan 2015 17:04

Yagnasri wrote:DRDO working in babu dominated GOI culture wherein political leadership was mostly interested in malai eating with gora deals or dancing with natashas. If with all this DRDO did some great work. It could always do better of course. But to say that DRDO did almost nothing is wrong. ISRO and DRDO are to two agency which did exceedingly well considering all the horrible things what GOI done and created around us.


Things are changing saar, Modi keenly realises this problem and is working towards solving it..
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/can-pm-narendra-modi-work-his-magic-on-indian-science/articleshow/45861240.cms

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_20317 » 13 Jan 2015 17:21

Only reason India did well in Missilery and Rocketry is because nobody would give missiles beyond 300/300 and absolutely no body would export the nuances of even a rudimentary proportional navigation system without making the importer .....

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby vishvak » 13 Jan 2015 18:40

kit wrote:Pretty sure Indian missile technology is at par and even ahead of the Europeans in most areas ..and seeker tech is fast catching up to .. now to get some new semi conductor foundries for DRDO :twisted: Wasnt there some news that the higher price and delay in new Israeli AWACS for india was due to delay in procuring components and rare earth material (well well ! )

Hopefully we won't do kulhadi on our own foot when Russia insists that rare earth for Sukhoi/Brahmos must be supplied from Russia while making a point.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Jan 2015 18:41

kvraghavaiah wrote:As CAG pointed out, many scientists and leaders in DRDO are working with lack of interest, unprofessional decisions and no vision.

1. Akash MK2 development was declared more than 5 yesr ago. US or Israel or China or even Pakistan would have done it in just 1 or 2 years and deploy it by now.
2. Invention of the chromium coating on the tip of the ballistic missile to reduce air drag was publicised almost 4-5 years ago. All other countries would have alredy implemented it while India invented it with no implementation for so many years.
3. Why the hell are Agni-3 and Agni-5 having a heavy steel motor casing for 1st stage even after so many years?
4. Why could not a man portable anti tank missile be developed from NAG for so many years?
5. Why is there no close in weapon system with quick reaction missiles? Why is Maitri joint project never advancing?

Gross unexcusable blunders by DRDO guys.


I hope this post was made in sarcasm.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shravanp » 13 Jan 2015 20:48

srai wrote:
skekatpuray wrote:This is amazing. A lot of subsystem hardware are now achieving 'completion' statuses. NaMo effect :)


Let's not get carried away. These are years of hard R&D work bearing fruit. Slap on the back should be given to Indian scientists and engineers who have persevered. Where NaMo could be given credit for is in sharing openly these accomplishments with the public. Kudos for that!


Pardon me saar, I agree with your points and above mahanubhav's points as well. However we know how sagging morale had affected DRDO during UPA rule regardless of innovation that took place. Specially when NaMo's and for that entire BJP/NDA are big on strengthening of our defense, I think is a morale booster for many.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Victor » 13 Jan 2015 21:05

Govt sacks DRDO chief Avinash Chander
Analysts believe that the action could have been taken against the backdrop of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's comment that the 'laid back' attitude in the DRDO will not be tolerated during a visit last year...

...Chander is the chief architect of Agni series of ballistic missile systems.

More heads may roll soon. Hate to say it but I had a "feeling" something like this was up.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Yagnasri » 13 Jan 2015 21:31

We may never know full reasons for his removal. From my understanding is NM do not want this kind of extension bussiness. Have been a victim of these extension business in finance sector and legal sector I agree with him. 64 years is good age and people should quite. It is the institution which shall be in a position to continue and has clear sucession plan for every one and ensure that no one is indispensable. Hope this message goes down well with all the people.


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