Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 13 Feb 2015 19:28

Why so much smoke? Very unlike K-15. Can't tell the diameter of the missile with all that smoke but seems stubbier than K-15.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28108 » 13 Feb 2015 19:47

What are those lateral oblique plumes form near the nose cones on either side ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby RoyG » 13 Feb 2015 19:50

After breaching the surface of the water the high intensity rocket motors of the bubble generator are needed to ensure adequate clearance especially due to lower velocity of the missile because the main engines haven't ignited.

It could also have the added effect of plume generation to give some shielding from IR detection satellites.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28108 » 13 Feb 2015 19:52

If K4 is range is 3000 kms in a "hypersonic cruise missile" type of intra-atmospheric trajectory(as claimed) what would its ballistic profile be?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gerard » 13 Feb 2015 19:55

prasannasimha wrote:What are those lateral oblique plumes form near the nose cones on either side ?


cavitator ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shravanp » 13 Feb 2015 19:57

Is LCA designed to carry cruise-missiles? I thought heavier sized ones are...like MkI/FGFA.

If LCA can fit the bill of high-altitude bombing (like M2k in Kargill) and interdiction roles, that should suffice. btw, the N-LCA looks phenomenal.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 13 Feb 2015 20:22

The plumes could be air bubble and water mix to reduce drag to permit the smallest possible gas generator stage and side effect of masking the ir flash of first stage ignition but ir sats will see it anyway few moments later

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 13 Feb 2015 20:23

It might help mask the firing location of the sub better from.lurking airplanes

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby negi » 13 Feb 2015 20:24

Russians were also using cavitator based launch systems for R-31 and R-39 SLBMs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sooraj » 13 Feb 2015 20:32

KBDagha wrote:New DRDO video has fist glimpse of K-4 Launch at 02 mins 35 secs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMJeWOZ ... youtu.be&a



That artillery based thermo-baric ammunition at 8:12 8) , can Brahmos be equipped with thermo-baric warheads :?:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 13 Feb 2015 20:41

In r39 sineva few moments after first stage ignition there
Is another earth shattering explosion that blows off a
Huge nose cap.

Anyone taking a crap in the bushes when a sineva launches
Is going to have his balls in his throat and scared shitless lol

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_24684 » 13 Feb 2015 20:43

.

see that Astra missile Launch in that video..

The Astra's flame can burn the rail launcher..but most of the A2A missile can fire it's engine only after the drop.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 13 Feb 2015 20:57

thats a launch off the rail.
standard stuff.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby negi » 13 Feb 2015 20:59

SajeevJino wrote:.

see that Astra missile Launch in that video..

The Astra's flame can burn the rail launcher..but most of the A2A missile can fire it's engine only after the drop.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgMMC6PxE2U

Check from 05 second onwards AIM-120 is fired from rails too . The firing sequence depends on how close the target is if it is pretty close to minimum engagement range then the firing sequence is not as dramatic .

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prem Kumar » 14 Feb 2015 01:12

Check these 2 Nirbhay videos out from LiveFist:





In the 2nd video, watch from 2:58

Unless my eyes are deceiving me, these are 2 different Nirbhay tests. In the 2nd video, the "NIRBHAY" lettering is further aft of the wing than the 1st one. In the 1st one, its almost directly over the wing. Can someone else confirm?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 14 Feb 2015 01:14

Could be from the partially successful first test. It did fly 250 km in that one.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_22733 » 14 Feb 2015 02:46

SajeevJino wrote:.

see that Astra missile Launch in that video..

The Astra's flame can burn the rail launcher..but most of the A2A missile can fire it's engine only after the drop.


(Disclaimer: rookie here).
The amount of heat that can be exchanged between the rail and the propellant plume is very limited, because the missile will be far away in a short instance. As soon as the plume dies down, the temperature goes to back to -50 degrees or something, it will take an equally short time to dissipate that heat (unless the aircraft is hyper-sonic, in which case the bow shock itself will heat up the rail), which brings me to this question:

Can a AAM be launched from an aircraft that is travelling supersonically?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 14 Feb 2015 03:21

>>Can a AAM be launched from an aircraft that is travelling supersonically?

yes..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_24684 » 14 Feb 2015 08:00

Karan M wrote:thats a launch off the rail.
standard stuff.



negi wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgMMC6PxE2U

Check from 05 second onwards AIM-120 is fired from rails too . The firing sequence depends on how close the target is if it is pretty close to minimum engagement range then the firing sequence is not as dramatic .


aww.. Thanks .!!!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 14 Feb 2015 09:18

Have we seen underwater launch videos of missiles from other countries? K4 looks very unique.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 14 Feb 2015 09:25

RoyG wrote:
Also New Delhi to tehran is 2500 km. Need A-2 or A-4 to strike fear.


Agni II's will be on their way out especially when the Agni IV's come online. With the all composite casing coupled better propellant technology the range should go up on the Agni I. Moreover, we won't be firing our missiles from New Delhi. We will be firing from somewhere in the Thar on a road mobile canister launcher.



True if A-1 can be made all composite and fired from Sindh it pretty much covers all of Iran. But Shaurya would do the same.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shaun » 14 Feb 2015 20:32

I guess the nose cone of k-4 looks similar to the one being jettisoned from K-15 but its bigger and it seems to be acting as the booster . Then the scene changes to 1st stage kicking in.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby vasu raya » 14 Feb 2015 21:16

the gas generators seem to be only on two sides leaving something for the camera to capture else everything would be foggy

the initial ignition of the first stage crosses a threshold for the IR detectors overhead to latch on, thereafter there is more focused tracking even if the IR signature is reduced, if the initial cueing is denied by the use of gas generators there is no easy tracking perhaps, speculation only

the launching sub cannot be tracked if it was Nirbhay which switches to engine after booster burnout and that initial booster burn is masked by gas generators

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 15 Feb 2015 04:12

I think the dual gas generators are lit underwater after emerging from the tube. The vehicle travels in this bubble and breaks surface. The first stage lights up. I think this is a safety feature and any other benefits are secondary. Indian Ocean has many thermal layers and cross currents. Bade can find the ocean currents diagram. If the vehicle were launched straight up there is potential for strong cross currents to tip/make it slant and in the extreme limit make it drive back into the launch platform. By having this bubble the effect of cross currents is minimized if not nullified.


Secondary stuff:
Space based IR detectors are tuned for long wave IR as all others are absorbed in the earth's atmosphere. Long wave IR comes from metal particles added to increase mass flow of rocket motors. All from GP Sutton.

I don't see much flame initially. Mostly white smoke.

Ankar, Can you cut off the gif slightly more time and give use the F/S ignition?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby pankajs » 15 Feb 2015 11:25

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 248399.cms
Supersonic BrahMos successfully test-fired from INS Kolkata
The 290km deadly conventional missile hit its target with pinpoint accuracy during this first-ever vertical launch from the 6,800-tonne INS Kolkata, which was commissioned in August last year. Two more follow-on destroyers, INS Kochi and INS Chennai, are being constructed at the Mazagon Docks under the overall Rs 11,662 crore project.

"The two warships, like INS Kolkata, are also being equipped with the universal vertical-launched BrahMos missile system as their principle precision strike weapon. The warships can fire 16 missiles in a salvo mode," said an official.
Around 50 warships and 70 aircraft are participating in the "theatre readiness operational level exercise", with the country's first-ever dedicated military satellite Rukmini or GSAT-7 "seamlessly networking" the triad of surface, sub-surface and air platforms of the Navy.

"Tropex provides the Navy with a valuable opportunity to validate its operational concepts, including network-centric operations, and integrate new acquisitions with the fleet. New weapons, sensors, communication systems and tactics are being tested during the exercise," said an officer.


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 16 Feb 2015 19:31

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piO7uS5Lbg8

pause this video just as the M51 is coming out of its water tank. there is a gas bubble layer being emitted from just below the warhead section, as in the K4 video above...it appears to be circular while in above video it might be two opposite arc segments of the circle with two gaps.

in the M51 it ceases or becomes invisible immediately, in K4 it continues for some time, perhaps we are over engineering its capacity being a first effort.

mighty peculiar. the K4 thing almost looks like a 2ndary rocket carrying the missile up for some time and the 1st stage fires at quite a height the M51 fires a nanosecond after it clears the water tank.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 16 Feb 2015 20:28

GD, The M51 shown above is being launched from a water tank. The circular ring seen is the gas generator ejecta from the launch tube. Its not same as K4. The circular ring ceases/subsides very soon for its mostly steam.

I still stick to my theory that the gas bubble is safety device to minimize cross flow in Indian Ocean currents.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28108 » 16 Feb 2015 22:13

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSn6_p8DTww

Ramana you can see the nose fairing having the tractor rocket that generates the gas bubble(looks like a Vishnu chakra cracker around the tip of the nose of the rocket) in which the SLBM traverses in the water and continues to lift the rocket till the first stage fires in this R39 land test.We are not shown in the K4 test the ejection of this nose fairing but can get an idea how the launch is conducted.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 16 Feb 2015 23:20

So there are vehicles that have ahead motors which are jettisoned after surface broach.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sid » 16 Feb 2015 23:57

But isn't it similar to what we have on Shaurya?

What is the advantage of having such jet based ejection of protective cap?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2015 00:15

Ramana sir

Dr VKSaraswat@ IIT B two years back at a presentation.

K4
"there is a gas generator which pumps the missile out, travels with a booster, underwater booster (UWVB), which brings it here and we solve the problem of what is called the cavitation bubble which is formed, which is formed due to the interface of the weapon, the hot gas/the vapour and the liquid here, then you come out and you have the nose cone which is separated, the fins and all are unfolded, the jet vanes start controlling and then the air booster starts firing. So the UWB takes it to a certain point, then the airbooster and then the missile, like any other missile, it functions.. this has a non ballistic trajectory,


SLBM
...there is another missile which we are making which has a longer range..", plus the depth of that missile release is going to be much higher..


Both images here - click next
http://imgur.com/5hNjQWQ,V8o6iTe#0

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 17 Feb 2015 00:39

KaranM, Thanks. Clears up lot of stuff. That is the K15 slide.
Essentially they have powered eject system in the nose cap and don't rely on just a gas generator aft of the launch tube.

So does the SLBM cross-section match the K4 launch video? Guess we need more than the clip posted by live fist/dead hand!

SLBM looks very, very impressive. A few boast loitering in Southern Indian Ocean will bring sense to many.

What is IT and ITSE? I am guessing C-C is carbon-carbon.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 17 Feb 2015 00:41

Sid wrote:But isn't it similar to what we have on Shaurya?

What is the advantage of having such jet based ejection of protective cap?



Pull vs Push system.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shaun » 17 Feb 2015 00:41

the cap reduces the drag when the missile is inside water.It seems both k-4 and k-15 have same launching mechanism with added advantage of that "cap booster" for k4.

Tarmak says k-15 has a two-stage booster, with one being employed under water and the other above the surface while this article says http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spotlights/the-inside-story-k-15/ K-15’s first-stage solid-fuel rocket booster being ignited inside a pontoon-based silo 20 metres under water & being lifted up to an altitude of 7km. Then the second-stage solid-fuel rocket ignited & lifted the K-15/B-05 to an altitude of 40km. Hindu says "After its launch from under water, the 10-metre tall K-15 will rise to an altitude of 20 km and cover a distance of 700 km. A gas generator will push K-15 from out of water"
Last edited by shaun on 17 Feb 2015 00:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 17 Feb 2015 00:43

Shaun, Technically its an air booster and not first stage because it has no controls in it.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shaun » 17 Feb 2015 00:53

likely configuration of SLBM will be , first and second stages use solid fuel propellant with the third stage using liquid fuel for TVC during warhead separation

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2015 01:10

Ramana sir - very right, its K15 not K4, mea culpa

VKS doesn't mention what exactly ITE and ITSE are ...but C-C is definitely Carbon Composite.
For rocket motors though:

From this:http://ftp.demec.ufpr.br/CFD/bibliografia/propulsao/Ellis_Berdoyes_2002.pdf

ITE - Integral Throat Entrances, ITSE - integral throat support and exit cone

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shaun » 17 Feb 2015 01:22

prasannasimha wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSn6_p8DTww

Ramana you can see the nose fairing having the tractor rocket that generates the gas bubble(looks like a Vishnu chakra cracker around the tip of the nose of the rocket) in which the SLBM traverses in the water and continues to lift the rocket till the first stage fires in this R39 land test.We are not shown in the K4 test the ejection of this nose fairing but can get an idea how the launch is conducted.


I think apart from cavitation that " ring" act as air-spike , projected forwards from the body, which produces a region of low density hot air ahead of the body. This has the advantage over a structural aerospike that the air density is lower than that behind a shock wave providing increased drag reduction.



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