Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Pratyush
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Pratyush »

That will take the total numbers to 14 squdrens. A very positive development.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by member_28108 »

The push and pull may also reduce the "stress load " on the submarine. If it is being ejected solely by a gas generator the stress on the "base plate "of the canister would be 100's of tonnes. Probably the nose cone tractor rocket reduced that load (pull and push) like the pull and push train at Neral :) . I am not so sure about the bubble going ahead of the rocket. We see the nose tip ahead of the flames in the R 39. ut probably there could still be a gas bubble ahead. Another thing is it also probably speeds ejection by delaying the cavitation collapse that can reduce the height of ejection ?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Singha »

the miraculous thing is at one point US was peddling its Hawk-mki system as the MRSAM for the IAF and they actually got a hearing in vayu bhavan instead of being laughed out at the gate!

the tractor rocket of k4 might permit deeper depth launches. someone has studied all the latest designs very deeply to come up with a soln that suits us.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Gyan »

The news item seems to indicate orders for IAF being:-

2+6 squadrons already ordered = 16 batteries/firing units = 64 launchers

7 squadrons are proposed to be immediately ordered = 14 batteries = 56 launchers

49 firing units = 196 launchers may be ordered in future in batches.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Karan M »

Very confused article. It first says 2 squadrons + 6 were ordered, then refers to production of the 6 being done & deliveries on the way, then says IAF is doing paperwork for seven squadrons more. So its 8+ 7= 15. Then it says IAF is likely to order 49 more firing units (49 batteries = 24 squadrons with 1 to spare!) but this could be merely the BEL source. So its more likely that 7 more will be ordered. Good enough!
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by rohitvats »

Karan M wrote: Very confused article. It first says 2 squadrons + 6 were ordered, then refers to production of the 6 being done & deliveries on the way, then says IAF is doing paperwork for seven squadrons more. So its 8+ 7= 15. Then it says IAF is likely to order 49 more firing units (49 batteries = 24 squadrons with 1 to spare!) but this could be merely the BEL source. So its more likely that 7 more will be ordered. Good enough!
To arrive at a ball-park level of requirement, all you need to do is identify the number of airfield on western and eastern border. Each AFB will require 1 x Squadron at least. Not to mention providing additional cover to those VA/VP which fall under IAF responsibility.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by sankum »

125 nos Akash sam per squadron.

Total future order 24.5*125=3063 nos sam.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by JTull »

6 squadrons (125*6=750 missiles) is a serious annual production rate to achieve! And, that is just to fulfil IAF requirements.

My crystal ball indicates that Akash will be the first missile to be exported (purely, as a defensive product) ahead of missiles such as Prahaar or Brahmos.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by rajkumar »

JTull wrote:6 squadrons (125*6=750 missiles) is a serious annual production rate to achieve! And, that is just to fulfil IAF requirements.

My crystal ball indicates that Akash will be the first missile to be exported (purely, as a defensive product) ahead of missiles such as Prahaar or Brahmos.
And also open the gate for India to be 'admitted' into the MTCR club!!!
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by rohitvats »

sankum wrote:125 nos Akash sam per squadron.

Total future order 24.5*125=3063 nos sam.
Considering that IAF SAM squadron has 2 x Missile Flights and each has 4 x Firing Units@ 3 ready to fire missiles each, we're talking about 2 x 4 x 3 = 24 ready to fire missiles.

125 missiles per squadron would mean 1 (ready) + 4 full reloads per squadron. Is that how 125 number is derived?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by sankum »

Yes, based on news reports.

For IA it is 40 Akash sam per battery @4 battery/ regiment is 160 Akash sam per regiment.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by rohitvats »

sankum wrote:Yes, based on news reports.

For IA it is 40 Akash sam per battery @4 battery/ regiment is 160 Akash sam per regiment.
Above does not makes sense.

Battery - 4 x Launchers @ 3 missiles per launcher: 12 ready to fire missiles
4 x Batteries - 48 ready to fire missiles.

Assuming 1 (ready)+3 reloads - 192 missiles. Similarly, 1 (ready)+2 reloads: 144 missiles.

160 number falls between the stools.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by member_20453 »

So a total of around 40 Squadron for the IAF, they will the cover the 40 or so major air bases across the country. Sweet. Indeed a very good production rate for the missile.

Ohh I would love to see massive order for the Prahaar too now. Time for Prithvi to be decommissioned and mostly used as target missiles. Prahaar should replace the Prithvi in conventional role. Nuke role should be left to the Agni/K series. Pinaka MK-1 should be upgraded with G3OM guidance and other guidance related upgrades from the MK-2 and should replace all Grad launchers. Pinaka MK-2 needs a massive order too.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by JTull »

Akash to be BEL’s star at show; more IAF orders likely
Indian Air Force (IAF) is likely to place additional procurement orders on BEL (49 firing units) in a phased manner. The IAF might immediately procure seven squadrons of AMS (consisting of 14 firing units.) The configuration of the seven new squadrons is likely to be similar to those being deployed currently.
Makes no sense!
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Gyan »

The only way to make sense of the news item is to read "firing units" as = batteries consisting of 4 launchers each. I would modify my aforesaid post to make it:-


2+6 squadrons already ordered = 16 batteries/firing units = 64 launchers

7 squadrons are proposed to be immediately ordered = 14 batteries = 56 launchers

49 -14 =35 firing units/batteries = 140 launchers may be ordered in future in batches apart from immediate order for 7 squadrons.

This indicates total of around 35 squadrons to protect 35 airfields or area targets. And if 7 squadrons are also seperate from 49 batteries then it would mean around 42 squadrons to protect 42 airfields or area targets.

Incidently what about Navy? How do they protect the ports from aerial threats?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by member_24684 »

.Please break the Surprise

Did Barak 8 intercepted the Brahmos .... only my assumption
A critical part of Anti- Missile Defence being Surface to Air Missiles (SAM), the Defence Minister witnessed the successful interception of a fast, low flying, Surface to Surface missile by a SAM. A clear dark night laid an ideal setting for this demonstration of precision targeting.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Singha »

they usually use ss-n-2 styx missile for such tests.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by ramana »

KaranM, Has the Akash been used to intercept a toss bomb released from a Jaguar or Mirage ?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Indranil »

It has been tested against targets parachuted from Su-30s.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by sankum »

Rohitvats wrote

Above does not makes sense.

Battery - 4 x Launchers @ 3 missiles per launcher: 12 ready to fire missiles
4 x Batteries - 48 ready to fire missiles.

Assuming 1 (ready)+3 reloads - 192 missiles. Similarly, 1 (ready)+2 reloads: 144 missiles.

160 number falls between the stools.
For IA orders I have based my estimation on a DRDO official long back in a news report saying that 48 batteries which is approx. 2000 Akash sam on order expected when lot of media reports gave Akash as a failure.

IAF order is worth Rs 6200Cr for 8 sq i.e, 16 Batteries say Rs 775 Cr/sq along with ground infrastructure.

IA if comparable order for 48 batteries then number of Akash Sam would have been 3000nos.

But the DRDO official in a magazine interview gave it approx. 2000 Akash sam.

48 batteries order was for Rs 14400 Cr.

IA when compared to IAF 48 batteries should cost Rs 16800 Cr approx. @ Rs 350Cr/bat -Rs 2400Cr for 1000 Akash Sam less.

Well I remember your discussion regarding regiment and missile groups and media as well I am confused about what constitutes what.

In IAF 2 bat form a fighting unit while in IA 4 bat form a fighting unit
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by sankum »

It can very well be one load of 48 nos Akash sam+ 2.5 reload of 120 nos Akash sam =168nos per fighting unit of 4 batteries for IA.

12*168=2016 Akash sam for 48 batteries of IA order.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by John »

SajeevJino wrote:.Please break the Surprise

Did Barak 8 intercepted the Brahmos .... only my assumption
A critical part of Anti- Missile Defence being Surface to Air Missiles (SAM), the Defence Minister witnessed the successful interception of a fast, low flying, Surface to Surface missile by a SAM. A clear dark night laid an ideal setting for this demonstration of precision targeting.
Indian Navy
Israelis reportedly tested upg Barak (C-Dome?) and Barak-8 against a drone simulating yakhont's capabilities.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Karan M »

ramana wrote:KaranM, Has the Akash been used to intercept a toss bomb released from a Jaguar or Mirage ?
Not mentioned publicly AFAIK. What have been mentioned are "para barrel targets", jettisoned from UAVs & fighters. Whether its possible - I guess so. The missile has a warhead destructive radius of 50m. The fire control radar can track a target of 2sqmtr at 80 km, which means 0.1 Sq Mtr would be tracked at ~40km. Should be enough.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Karan M »

Rohitvats and Sankum

http://www.sakaaltimes.com/NewsDetails. ... e%20system


Rs 20,000 crore business generated with production of Akash missile system
Reporters Name | SHASHWAT GUPTA RAY | Thursday, 4 July 2013 AT 12:19 PM IST
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Army, R&DE(E), missile, Akash missile, production, DRDO, IAF, Pune, Shashwat Gupta Ray

PUNE: A whopping Rs 20,000 crore business has been generated with the production of the first lot of the anti-aircraft missile system Akash.

Pune-based Research and Development Establishment Engineers (R&DE (E)), a laboratory of the Defence Research & Development Organization (DRDO), is playing a major role in its development.

Interestingly, almost 10 per cent of this business is being generated by various Pune based industries involved in the production of different elements.

“The versatile Akash missile system has 26 different elements. The launcher is a key component which has been designed by the R&DE (E). Orders have been placed to equip eight squadrons of the Indian Air Force (IAF) and six regiments of the Army, which includes 64 launcher systems for the IAF and 48 for the Indian Army. This has to be executed over a period of five years,” Associate Director, R&DE (E) VV Parlikar told Sakal Times.

The missile system is being developed by R&DE (E), along with other DRDO labs Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad and Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), Bengaluru.

“Initial orders for Akash have been executed for four squadrons of the IAF and first regiment of the Army's Air Defence Artillery. A total of 36 launchers have already been developed and handed over, with 32 for the IAF and four for the Army. The total business generated through production of this system at various locations in the country has been Rs 20,000 crore. The launcher, which has been designed by R&DE (E), costs about Rs 10 crore each,” Parlikar said.

Parlikar, winner of the DRDO Scientist of the Year Award – 2012 and Associate Director of R&DE(E) said that the launcher itself generated business of around Rs 360 crore. Once completed, the launcher systems would cost around Rs 1,120 crore.

"A large chunk of this system is being developed by the government and private industry. Companies like Tata Power SED, Mumbai and Larsen and Toubro (L&T), Talegaon, are making launchers,” he said.
Melwyn

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Melwyn »

Please note from the shame article...
The Akash missile system was conceived as a project and completed way before the make-in-India campaign was launched.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Karan M »

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... ash-antony

India to procure six more Akash missile squadrons
PTI Feb 2, 2010, 04.05pm IST

Bangalore - The Defence Acquisition Council has decided to procure six more Akash missile squadrons,

Defence Minister A K Antony said here today.

This is in addition to the two squadrons procured earlier, Antony told reporters.

Each squadron comprises 125 missiles.

Antony said earlier there was a proposal to abandon the Akash project as IAF was not happy with it, but later they tried it.

"Now they are very happy," the minister said. PTI
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Karan M »

IAF - 64 Launchers. 4 launchers per battery. So 16 batteries. 8 Squadrons ordered. 2 batteries per squadron. Or firing units.

Army - 48 launchers. 4 launchers per battery. So 12 batteries. 6 Regiments claimed. So again, 2 batteries per Regiment.

Number of regiments may not be accurate, but you do know the number of launchers ordered! And the source of the 125 number!
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by ramana »

Indranil and KaranM, I looked all over for this para-barrel target. What is its area, how is it launched and what is it supposed to represent? What planes is it deployed from?

From the name it looks like a barrel floating down with a parachute. But could be totally wrong.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Karan M »

Ramana

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... n-missiles
After the Pokhran nuclear tests in 1998, the US-imposed sanctions meant India had difficulty importing sophisticated aerial targets. Some low-tech alternatives were also in use. These included dropping an oil barrel attached to a parachute from an airplane or an older propellor-based airplane flying with a tethered sleeve.

In the late 1980s, Northrop's KD2R5 Shelduck target drone began to be used. India's Defence Research and Development Organization also developed an unmanned system called Lakshya, which also uses a tethered sleeve. But Lakshyas are relatively expensive to operate and needs additional resources for recovery of the mother vehicle.

Khaitan's company delivered the first batch of its JX2 (propellor-based) unmanned aerial targets in December last year. These can achieve speeds up to 0.2 Mach. Kadet's JX3 is a jet turbine powered UAV and can touch 0.5 Mach. He sources engines from Germany and builds the systems in his Kolkata factory. The expendable systems are cost effective, starting at Rs 1 lakh per unit for the JX2.
Now of course, Akash has been proven against a bunch of targets including Banshee and high speed Mirach drones.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by ramana »

Thanks again KaranM.

Clarifies a few things.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by ramana »

KaranM and all, Here is Khaitan website. He is an Indian and a Ministry of Defence contractor. Yet his map shows J&K as dotted. How patriotic and true to his paycheck is it?

http://www.khaitan.com/network.php

need to question him.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by rohitvats »

Karan M wrote:<SNIP>“The versatile Akash missile system has 26 different elements. The launcher is a key component which has been designed by the R&DE (E). Orders have been placed to equip eight squadrons of the Indian Air Force (IAF) and six regiments of the Army, which includes 64 launcher systems for the IAF and 48 for the Indian Army. This has to be executed over a period of five years,” Associate Director, R&DE (E) VV Parlikar told Sakal Times.

The missile system is being developed by R&DE (E), along with other DRDO labs Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad and Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), Bengaluru.

“Initial orders for Akash have been executed for four squadrons of the IAF and first regiment of the Army's Air Defence Artillery. A total of 36 launchers have already been developed and handed over, with 32 for the IAF and four for the Army. The total business generated through production of this system at various locations in the country has been Rs 20,000 crore. The launcher, which has been designed by R&DE (E), costs about Rs 10 crore each,” Parlikar said.

<SNIP>

Some takeaways from the above article:

- Confirmation about 8 Akash Squadrons for IAF; of these, equipment worth 4 x Squadrons has already been delivered.

- Army has placed order for 6 x Regiments. This is a very important development because IA has had grand total of only 2 x Kvadrat equipped AD Missile Groups. And these were with a Strike Corps each. But now Akash SAM will see more proliferation and provide coverage to other formations as well. As it is, IA has YET no replacing SA-6 equipped Missile Groups with Akash induction. As I had written some time back, at least one of the SA-6 Missile Group has shifted from Strike Corps to one of the Pivot Corps.

- The report also puts IA Missile Regiment TOE as 2 x Battery like IAF; may or may not be true. As it is, these things evolve basis technology and operational requirement. Quite possible that given the quantum improvement in performance which Akash system represents over older Kvadrats, IA may feel confident of having only 2 x Battery per regiment. Will allow for larger spread of Akash Missile Regiments in the IA.

PS: We really need a Long Range SAM in 80-120 km range to provide the larger outer bubble in AD hierarchy. QRSAM+Akash+LR-SAM should provide the required AD coverage from FEBA to VA/VP in hinterland.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Singha »

I wonder if space based sats can pick up the strong emissions of a AWACS and use multiple sats to get a moving position fix good enough to unleash Shaurya weapon in a ULR-SAM role ... fly at 40km altitude and mach6 to enter the target area from upto 1500km away and then release 6 heat shielded amraam type weapons which will discard heat shield at 70,000ft and go radar active in grid pattern to hunt the target. mid course updates would be needed for the shaurya to keep going on right course.

if a trio of sats in close orbit can track naval ships as cheen and amrika is doing, why not this in due course?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Shrinivasan »

rohitvats wrote: - Confirmation about 8 Akash Squadrons for IAF; of these, equipment worth 4 x Squadrons has already been delivered.
...
Initial 2SQ for IAF were deployed in Pune and Gwalior. the next Six SQ were to be deployed in the North East. If Two more SQ have been delivered, there has been no news about their deployment / commissioning. Google Earth Aunty also does not bare any truths. any Chaiwala information on this? Only public domain info please.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Pratyush »

Singha wrote:I wonder if space based sats can pick up the strong emissions of a AWACS and use multiple sats to get a moving position fix good enough to unleash Shaurya weapon in a ULR-SAM role ... fly at 40km altitude and mach6 to enter the target area from upto 1500km away and then release 6 heat shielded amraam type weapons which will discard heat shield at 70,000ft and go radar active in grid pattern to hunt the target. mid course updates would be needed for the shaurya to keep going on right course.

if a trio of sats in close orbit can track naval ships as cheen and amrika is doing, why not this in due course?
Singha, amongst the moderators you are the one who is the most devious. You come up with scenarios, which make a jingo respond to you and take the thread OT. :(( :((
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by srai »

rohitvats wrote:...

PS: We really need a Long Range SAM in 80-120 km range to provide the larger outer bubble in AD hierarchy. QRSAM+Akash+LR-SAM should provide the required AD coverage from FEBA to VA/VP in hinterland.
IMO, QRSAM is no longer necessary. Akash SAM provides a good coverage between 3.5km to 30km at altitudes of 30m to 18km. For close-in defence, it would be good to invest in guns of CIWS-type and automated MANPADS. LR-SAM with 200km range is required though to tackle stand-off PGM launch platforms.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Singha »

^^ area denial/anti access is vital over land also. a player with such a weapon could make life very tough for transports, tankers and AWACS which normally operate with impunity deep in the rear like 500+ km behind the front.

I will amend my statement to include multiple OTH radars working in concert as well. it is claimed abm radars can detect football sized objects some 3000km away. and these heavies need to fly above 20,000ft for their mission, for awacs more like 35,000ft in heavy config and upto 45,000ft in business jet mods like G500.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Pratyush »

Sinngha,

You need to start SARPA.

Singha Advanced Research Project Agency :P
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Indranil »

Brahmos missile talk.

1. A frigate hit by Brahmos, breaks into 2 and sinks in 4 minutes.
2. They can hit a house in an urban situation. Basically the test was a model village build by the Army in the desert. The aim was to take out a house. They did.
3. Army further asked them for 90 degree dive mode, which they now can. This automatically means that they have anti aircraft carrier capabilities. They won't sink it, but they will immobilize it.
4. 5 Brahmos NGs can be fitted on the Su-30.
5. They can get to hypersonic (Mach 5) missile by modifying the current engine with different materials/coatings.
6. Going beyond that is the challenge.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Kartik »

Brahmos NG is the hypersonic Brahmos next gen variant that is being talked about?
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