Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

member_28840 · Post by **member_28840** » 18 Feb 2015 12:52

Pratyush wrote:Sinngha,

You need to start SARPA.

Singha Advanced Research Project Agency

I would invest.

This idea of Ultra Long range SAM might be workable, I am intrigued. Sorry to continue this OT train of thought but...

The problems i see are,

1) Can the AMRAAM type missile be fired at hypersonic speeds? can it be fired if the launch platform (reentry cone) is spinning quite fast (as its designed to do to spread heat). Maybe ISRO developed tech for future mars lander can be used to deploy parachute or aero braking mechanism to slow down right before launch.

2) How will the launch platform send targeting data to the AMRAAM type missile? On conventional platforms the radar is used to acquire a lock which passes the target's radar profile to the missile before launch.

3) The satellite tracking should be possible from a technical standpoint, but we will need to seriously upgrade the numbers of military satellites we have in orbit before we can dream of something like this.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Feb 2015 13:01

srai wrote:
rohitvats wrote:...PS: We really need a Long Range SAM in 80-120 km range to provide the larger outer bubble in AD hierarchy. QRSAM+Akash+LR-SAM should provide the required AD coverage from FEBA to VA/VP in hinterland.
IMO, QRSAM is no longer necessary. Akash SAM provides a good coverage between 3.5km to 30km at altitudes of 30m to 18km. For close-in defence, it would be good to invest in guns of CIWS-type and automated MANPADS. LR-SAM with 200km range is required though to tackle stand-off PGM launch platforms.

You're looking at a it from a very limited angle and over simplifying the challenge.

IAF has gone for SPYDER SAM to replace it's short-range SAM for a reason. A MR_SAM like Akash is expected to provide AD cover over a larger area covering multiple assets / approaches to multiple assets. However, each high value asset will also have a sub-AD coverage to neutralize targets which are likely to penetrate the envelope provided by a MR_SAM like Akash. Same is the case with Akash SAM and LR_SAM.

For example, a large ammunition depot will be under three layers of AD coverage with SR_SAM/QR_SAM forming the last leg of AD coverage and which provides a bubble directly covering the ammunition depot. But at some respectable distance from the target to ensure long distance stand-off are not released at the target.

Stuff like AD guns and MANPAD are last ditch attempts to neutralize a threat. A modern last mile AD system will generally feature a mix of AD Guns and extremely short range missiles in MANPAD category.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Feb 2015 13:57

The only clear advantages i can see of a QRSAM are shorter minimum range, fire on the move (lighter missile, tracking mechanism et al) & non RF seekers.

Rohit, srai's point (i think) is that there is substantial overlap between a QRSAM range envelope and Akash Mk1.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Feb 2015 13:58

ramana wrote:KaranM and all, Here is Khaitan website. He is an Indian and a Ministry of Defence contractor. Yet his map shows J&K as dotted. How patriotic and true to his paycheck is it?

http://www.khaitan.com/network.php

need to question him.

Sir, I think that's the fan company's website - been around for ages.

This is the UAV firm
kadet-uav.com/demonstration_team.php

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Feb 2015 14:05

Kartik wrote:Brahmos NG is the hypersonic Brahmos next gen variant that is being talked about?

Brahmos-M

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Feb 2015 14:07

indranilroy wrote:Brahmos missile talk.

1. A frigate hit by Brahmos, breaks into 2 and sinks in 4 minutes.
2. They can hit a house in an urban situation. Basically the test was a model village build by the Army in the desert. The aim was to take out a house. They did.
3. Army further asked them for 90 degree dive mode, which they now can. This automatically means that they have anti aircraft carrier capabilities. They won't sink it, but they will immobilize it.
4. 5 Brahmos NGs can be fitted on the Su-30.
5. They can get to hypersonic (Mach 5) missile by modifying the current engine with different materials/coatings.
6. Going beyond that is the challenge.

Thanks Interesting where can I find the video

Probably also has to do with the fuel

http://tass.ru/en/russia/778026

Russia has created a fuel formula that will help aircraft exceed a speed of Mach 5, Deputy Defense Minister, Army General Dmitry Bulgakov said on Tuesday.

The deputy defense minister said Russia is currently developing fuel for hypersonic aircraft.

"The recipe has been created and the energy accumulated in this fuel will help our aircraft exceed the speed of Mach 5," he said.

srai · Post by **srai** » 18 Feb 2015 15:38

Karan M wrote:The only clear advantages i can see of a QRSAM are shorter minimum range, fire on the move (lighter missile, tracking mechanism et al) & non RF seekers.

Rohit, srai's point (i think) is that there is substantial overlap between a QRSAM range envelope and Akash Mk1.

From a limited budget pov, some level of rationalization needs to occur. Yes, Akash Mk.1 and QRSAM to a large degree would overlap roles. IMO, a limited number of QRSAMs would be sufficient for specialized needs.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Feb 2015 16:31

Interesting thing is a mix of regular MRSAM & booster armed MRSAM would cover the need for Long range SAMs in the near term. with booster should be able to comfortably go upto the 100 km+ range if we go by past media reports and reveals at F'boro by IAI. Indian PR pics also showed booster armed missiles but then it disappeared.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Feb 2015 16:34

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 18 Feb 2015 19:57

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 7m7 minutes ago

The Gruthma 1000 kg glide bomb is a fully indigenous development.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 18 Feb 2015 20:01

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 16s17 seconds ago

Retweeting a picture of the Brahmos NG. #AeroIndia2015

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Feb 2015 20:02

rohitvats, Does IAF still have the SA-5 Goa long range SAMs? Those were in the 150km range.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 18 Feb 2015 20:02

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 3m3 minutes ago

Here's an Astra air to air missile iteration. #AeroIndia2015

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Feb 2015 20:52

Austin wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Brahmos missile talk.

1. A frigate hit by Brahmos, breaks into 2 and sinks in 4 minutes.
2. They can hit a house in an urban situation. Basically the test was a model village build by the Army in the desert. The aim was to take out a house. They did.
3. Army further asked them for 90 degree dive mode, which they now can. This automatically means that they have anti aircraft carrier capabilities. They won't sink it, but they will immobilize it.
4. 5 Brahmos NGs can be fitted on the Su-30.
5. They can get to hypersonic (Mach 5) missile by modifying the current engine with different materials/coatings.
6. Going beyond that is the challenge.
Thanks Interesting where can I find the video

http://aeroindialive.nic.in/show_ondema ... id_part=19

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 18 Feb 2015 21:21

ramana wrote:KaranM and all, Here is Khaitan website. He is an Indian and a Ministry of Defence contractor. Yet his map shows J&K as dotted. How patriotic and true to his paycheck is it?

http://www.khaitan.com/network.php

need to question him.

Have put up a mail through "Contact Us" section, lets see whether they rectify it or not. If anybody else is planning to do the same then you must know that the character limit is 500 including spaces and providing email and contact no. is also necessary.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Feb 2015 22:15

This Khaitan and Khaitan from Kadet systems are not the same.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 18 Feb 2015 22:15

Is Brahmos Mini == Brahmos A?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Feb 2015 22:29

Brahmos mini has been re christened as Brahmos NG

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Feb 2015 00:58

rohitvats wrote:
Karan M wrote:<SNIP>“The versatile Akash missile system has 26 different elements. The launcher is a key component which has been designed by the R&DE (E). Orders have been placed to equip eight squadrons of the Indian Air Force (IAF) and six regiments of the Army, which includes 64 launcher systems for the IAF and 48 for the Indian Army. This has to be executed over a period of five years,” Associate Director, R&DE (E) VV Parlikar told Sakal Times.

The missile system is being developed by R&DE (E), along with other DRDO labs Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad and Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), Bengaluru.

“Initial orders for Akash have been executed for four squadrons of the IAF and first regiment of the Army's Air Defence Artillery. A total of 36 launchers have already been developed and handed over, with 32 for the IAF and four for the Army. The total business generated through production of this system at various locations in the country has been Rs 20,000 crore. The launcher, which has been designed by R&DE (E), costs about Rs 10 crore each,” Parlikar said.

<SNIP>

Some takeaways from the above article:

- Confirmation about 8 Akash Squadrons for IAF; of these, equipment worth 4 x Squadrons has already been delivered.

- Army has placed order for 6 x Regiments. This is a very important development because IA has had grand total of only 2 x Kvadrat equipped AD Missile Groups. And these were with a Strike Corps each. But now Akash SAM will see more proliferation and provide coverage to other formations as well. As it is, IA has YET no replacing SA-6 equipped Missile Groups with Akash induction. As I had written some time back, at least one of the SA-6 Missile Group has shifted from Strike Corps to one of the Pivot Corps.

- The report also puts IA Missile Regiment TOE as 2 x Battery like IAF; may or may not be true. As it is, these things evolve basis technology and operational requirement. Quite possible that given the quantum improvement in performance which Akash system represents over older Kvadrats, IA may feel confident of having only 2 x Battery per regiment. Will allow for larger spread of Akash Missile Regiments in the IA.

PS: We really need a Long Range SAM in 80-120 km range to provide the larger outer bubble in AD hierarchy. QRSAM+Akash+LR-SAM should provide the required AD coverage from FEBA to VA/VP in hinterland.

The one thing I am not sure about in the article is the 8 regiments bit. Launchers are fine, because he is a launcher specialist & would track that in exact detail.

Does the Army TOE organize by regiments which would have as few as 2 firing units each?

member_23360 · Post by **member_23360** » 19 Feb 2015 08:39

regarding the QRSAM, there were some talks of using an astra spin-off ..

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 19 Feb 2015 09:47

ramana wrote:rohitvats, Does IAF still have the SA-5 Goa long range SAMs? Those were in the 150km range.

ramana ji i believe you mean the Gammon the Goa us effectively the Sa3 or S125 pechora SAM.

Not sure if we were previous users but currently I dont believe we have these in active service.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Feb 2015 09:54

andy B, How are you? How is life? yes you are right its the S-200 NATO name: Gammon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA-5_Gammon

Shows India still has them.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Feb 2015 10:01

Bharat Forge in JV with Rafael for Spike missile as component supplier (As much as can be offloaded) to the main integrator BDL.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Feb 2015 10:08

First glimpse at Manik, the engine for Nirbhay

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Feb 2015 10:17

indranilroy wrote:First glimpse at Manik, the engine for Nirbhay

Since these are meant for one time use with the missile, these engines won't need latest gen technologies that are required for durability. The engine technologies India has gained through its Kaveri program should be sufficient.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 19 Feb 2015 10:56

indranilroy wrote:Brahmos missile talk.

1. A frigate hit by Brahmos, breaks into 2 and sinks in 4 minutes.
2. They can hit a house in an urban situation. Basically the test was a model village build by the Army in the desert. The aim was to take out a house. They did.
3. Army further asked them for 90 degree dive mode, which they now can. This automatically means that they have anti aircraft carrier capabilities. They won't sink it, but they will immobilize it.
4. 5 Brahmos NGs can be fitted on the Su-30.
5. They can get to hypersonic (Mach 5) missile by modifying the current engine with different materials/coatings.
6. Going beyond that is the challenge.

IA and IAF will buy Brahmos. There is no similar foreign system !!!!!

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 19 Feb 2015 11:00

ramana wrote:rohitvats, Does IAF still have the SA-5 Goa long range SAMs? Those were in the 150km range.

You mean SA 5 Gammon ? I don't think that India ever had SA 5. We had SA 2, phased out decades ago.

I have heard a lot about India having SA 10 system, but there is nothing official or un official about it.

Of course we have SA 3 Goa / Pechora with IAF and IN ( SA N 1 )

Kersi

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Feb 2015 11:12

ramana wrote:rohitvats, Does IAF still have the SA-5 Goa long range SAMs? Those were in the 150km range.

ramana - not that I know of. While IAF uses the SA-3 GOA, IA has the SA-6 Kvadrat.

Have not come across pics of SA-5 in Indian service. Though, some literature I saw on the net mentions the same.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Feb 2015 11:27

Karan M wrote:<SNIP> The one thing I am not sure about in the article is the 8 regiments bit. Launchers are fine, because he is a launcher specialist & would track that in exact detail.

Does the Army TOE organize by regiments which would have as few as 2 firing units each?

This is the first mention of 6 x Regiments for IA that I'm hearing about. One does not know if this is in addition to existing order for 2 x Regiments (that would make it a total of 8 regiments) or 2+4 kind of order.

Coming to TOE, standard is 3 x batteries per regiment. With SA-6 Group having 4 x batteries. That could be because they were expected to provide AD coverage over larger area and more assets.

But as I said, TOE configuration will depend on operational requirement and technological advantages. Compared to SA-6 with IA or SA-3 with IAF, Akash represents a quantum improvement in every aspect.

We need to wait for someone to tell us the complete picture of what is happening....otherwise we're blind men in a dark room!

member_28640 · Post by **member_28640** » 19 Feb 2015 12:48

One more prithvi is "tested" .. SFC making way for newer missiles
Clicky

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Feb 2015 13:04

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 18m18 minutes ago

Astra flight tests recommence in March. The seeker envelope will be tested.

member_28827 · Post by **member_28827** » 19 Feb 2015 13:56

India on Thursday successfully test-fired its indigenously developed nuclear capable Prithvi-II surface-to-surface missile with a strike range of 350 km as part of a user trial by the army from a test range at Chandipur in Odisha.

With a strike range of 350 km, Prithvi-II is capable of carrying 500 kg to 1,000 kg of warheads and is thrusted by liquid propulsion twine engines. Read More

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 19 Feb 2015 14:47

andy B wrote:
ramana wrote:rohitvats, Does IAF still have the SA-5 Goa long range SAMs? Those were in the 150km range.
ramana ji i believe you mean the Gammon the Goa us effectively the Sa3 or S125 pechora SAM.

Not sure if we were previous users but currently I dont believe we have these in active service.

ramana ji doing well....life is ok saar just hiding in the shadows in BRF! I dont think wiki is right the Gammon in many ways is a very large area defence almost strategic SAM something that we have never employed in Indian Armed Forces doctrine as it has been focussed on Fighters combined with point defence SAMs such as Goa/Gecko/Klub etc. The only other scenario is if a very limited number purchased for ala the mythical S300s!!

I think the real quantum leap will be the MR and LR SAMs coming online as they will extend surveillance and intercept capabilities to much further than what we can muster today...JMT

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Feb 2015 15:19

SA 5 news is like the Backfire news , we never had them even otherwise it is very close to being under prohibited items as per MTCR guidelines.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 19 Feb 2015 15:40

The present order of 48 launchers for Akash sam i.e, 12 batteries will cost Rs 3600 Cr (@ Rs 300Cr/ battery) i.e, 25% of the Rs 14400Cr order of IA.

Earlier a news report had said as 8 regiments total order with 2 regiments initial order which comes to 6 batteries / regiment.

In rohitvats words we're blind men in a dark room!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Feb 2015 15:48

patrika wrote:
India on Thursday successfully test-fired its indigenously developed nuclear capable Prithvi-II surface-to-surface missile with a strike range of 350 km as part of a user trial by the army from a test range at Chandipur in Odisha.

With a strike range of 350 km, Prithvi-II is capable of carrying 500 kg to 1,000 kg of warheads and is thrusted by liquid propulsion twine engines. Read More

This particular Prithvi missile looks unusually fat, is it due to some photography issue.

sooraj · Post by **sooraj** » 19 Feb 2015 16:08

^^^ yes and looks a bit short

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Feb 2015 16:38

Nuclear capable Prithvi-II missile test-fired - Y.Mallikarjun, The Hindu

India on Thursday successfully test-fired nuclear weapons capable, surface-to-surface Prithvi-II missile for a shortened range of 250 km as against its full range of 350 km from Chandipur in Balasore district, Odisha.

The indigenously-developed missile was launched by personnel of Strategic Forces Command (SFC) from a road mobile launcher at around 9.15 am. The missile after a flight duration of nearly seven minutes splashed down near the pre-designated target point in the Bay of Bengal with a high degree of accuracy, according to Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO)missile scientists.

“ We have also test- flown two indigenously developed radar transponders for S band and C band in the missile and they were successfully validated”, said one of the scientists. He said the two transponders could be used for bigger missiles in future.

Carrying a dummy payload weighing 500 kg, the missile met all the mission objectives. The entire mission was carried out by SFC personnel as part of regular training.

All the radars, electro-optical tracking systems and telemetry stations along the East Coast monitored the trajectory and health of the missile from the launch till its impact, while down a range ship recorded the terminal event.

Prithvi-II is the first missile to have been developed by the DRDO under the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP) and has been inducted into the SFC in 2003.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Feb 2015 16:42

That Prithvi II photo does not appear to be P-II at all. Besides, it has DRDO colour scheme, orange spiralling ribbon from top to bottom. the launch today was by SFC.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 19 Feb 2015 18:38

We haven't heard much about PAD/AAD in a while now. Anything at AI?