Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Singha
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 20 Mar 2015 07:13

in these airborne tests is the Astra seeker used in LOBL mode , or there is some integration with the su30 weapon system to provide it the initial waypoint before firing and it goes active later?

since line su30s are offered by iaf periodically I guess there is no integration yet with su30 or any other system like Tejas, which will need to be proven out next for true BVR shots. the missile onboard seekers have a limited battery, azimuth and range around 10km only.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 20 Mar 2015 07:59

singha, there was extensive work done on su-30 integration..

we are at phase 3
http://rpdefense.over-blog.com/more-cap ... n-su-30mki

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby hnair » 20 Mar 2015 08:35

Nice patent info on dual-pulse ( :shock: the citations and referenced by). Gives a good idea about the thinking

The dual-pulse motor's second stage seem to maintain a "base-bleed" kind of strategy, to extend range by being less draggy while coasting and maintain partially, the speed imparted by first-grain. Particularly at high altitudes. The frangible plug in the middle of the bulkhead seem to get burned out and the first-pulse's empty casing kind of acts as a biggish expansion chamber, reducing the efficiency a bit. But since control fins are not lost (as in jettisionable stages approach), it kind of is a decent compromise solution for extending AAM/SAM ranges.

It does seem to add some energy during the end game, like the ramjets. But not by much. Basically a speed sustainer at high-altitudes.

The challenge would be, what if the end-game is reached before the first-grain has burned out? You cannot throttle or jettison :eek: Also, one wonders if an annular multi-pulse motor, with the various grains being separated by frangible layers is possible? The firing up of the subsequent grain will be a pain, unless there is a pyrochord type thingy to fire up the second-grain and collapse the frangile tube into the void caused by burned out first-grain.....anyways, massive quality control nightmare right there

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby tsarkar » 20 Mar 2015 10:18

Astra is urgently required to replace R-77, that is one of the reasons for Su-30 being the first platform to be integrated with it.

IAF made interim purchases of R-27 in 2012 to bridge the capability gap until Astra enters service.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine ... 28022.html
http://www.airforce-technology.com/news ... -air-force

R-77 has performed abysmally in Indian service, because of manufacturing and QC issues.

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/n ... rt/490055/

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby rakall » 20 Mar 2015 13:27

Singha wrote:in these airborne tests is the Astra seeker used in LOBL mode , or there is some integration with the su30 weapon system to provide it the initial waypoint before firing and it goes active later?

since line su30s are offered by iaf periodically I guess there is no integration yet with su30 or any other system like Tejas, which will need to be proven out next for true BVR shots. the missile onboard seekers have a limited battery, azimuth and range around 10km only.


Astra was most likely slaved to the Su30 weapon system.. SJha mentioned on twitter that the test aborted on 1st day of scheduled test was due to sudden malfunction in the aircraft weapon system

Yesterday's test was aborted on account of a glitch in the carriage aircraft whose weapon deployment mode suddenly malfunctioned in-flight.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 20 Mar 2015 13:48

well so the much vaunted adder is not so great.
plus its seeker was exported for the SD12 in cheen.

imo desi seeker + desi sw is the best bet in these things. unlike others DRDO can work with the forces to give them true picture, not slideware.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby A Sharma » 20 Mar 2015 19:09

HAL Integrated Astra Missile Launched from SU-30MKI Aircraft

Astra, India’s first indigenous Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air-to-air missile integrated by HAL on Su-30 MKI aircraft was successfully launched yesterday from Chandipur, Odisha. “The successful launch is an important milestone in enhancing the armament capabilities of Su-30MKI aircraft. HAL played a vital role in this project in designing and developing the modification scheme for integration of the missile with aircraft navigation, aiming and weapon systems. HAL has also designed the Flight Test Instrumentation (FTI) for data acquisition from aircraft sensors and online telemetry of aircraft data for real-time monitoring of aircraft handling qualities”, said Mr. T. Suvarna Raju, Chairman, HAL.
The challenging task was carried out by HAL with support from Indian Air Force, DRDO and other agencies.

Prior to the live launch, rigorous Captive Flight Tests (CFTs) were carried out by IAF with the support from HAL. The CFT trials were carried out in three phases to assess the aero-structural and mechanical integrity for carriage, validation of Weapon Control System and its electrical and avionic interfaces with missile and performance of missile system in transmission and reception mode of missile seeker respectively. The first live launch was carried out on May 4, 2014.

This is another step of continuous endeavours by HAL towards achieving self-reliance and realizing the “Make-in-India” theme a success with DRDO as its key partner in fulfilling India’s defence needs

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shaun » 20 Mar 2015 22:22

Astra and other missiles of the same class

Astra
Image

Adder
Image

SD-10/PL-12
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 20 Mar 2015 22:46

Astra has a much cleaner burn. I guess Python-5/Astra Mk-1/2 will be the standard armament in the future.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sanjaykumar » 20 Mar 2015 22:57

Is there any other missile with a violaceous flame?

Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 20 Mar 2015 23:41

tsarkar wrote:R-77 has performed abysmally in Indian service, because of manufacturing and QC issues.

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/n ... rt/490055/


To be fair though, the issues mentioned were for one batch of R-77s. The issues were, if we go by Russian releases on the matter, resolved for follow on batches.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 20 Mar 2015 23:45

sanjaykumar, Flame color gives an idea of the chemistry of the propellant. Yellow is carbonaceous. Violet is more from burning metal. Some high energy metallic component. Strontium is red. Potassium is violet if I recall my Bunsen burner flame test. So most likely the oxidizer in the fuel is potassium compound.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 20 Mar 2015 23:48

Karan M wrote:singha, there was extensive work done on su-30 integration..

we are at phase 3
http://rpdefense.over-blog.com/more-cap ... n-su-30mki


The indigenous Astra beyond visual-range air-to-air missile has been captive flight tested again on the Su-30MKI, following successful tests in April this year as earlier reported bySP’s. The IAF is watching keenly as the ambitious weapon system proves itself on the air dominance platform, and is hoping for a test firing from the Su-30MKI this year.



According to HAL, captive flight test for the Astra missile on the Su-30MKI aircraft was planned in three phases: Phase-1, to carry out aero-structural and mechanical integrity for carriage of Astra under steady and manoeuvering conditions, Phase-2 to carry out validation of weapon control system and its electrical and avionic interfaces with Astra missile and in Phase-3, to check the performance of missile system in transmitting and receiving mode of missile seeker with designated target under different flight conditions and the live firing of the Astra missile from the aircraft. As first reported by SP’s, while the base version Astra Mk.1 will have an intercept range of 44-km, it will be the Astra Mk.2 that will be a true force multiplier weapon, with an intercept range in excess of 100-km.


Good to know th Phase 3 achieved in 2015 i.e. 2 years from the above news report.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sanjaykumar » 21 Mar 2015 00:04

Yes flame photometry may be involved. As also flame temperature. But I don't think I have seen this particular hue for a missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 21 Mar 2015 00:23

sanjaykumar wrote:Yes flame photometry may be involved. As also flame temperature. But I don't think I have seen this particular hue for a missile.


Older pic. Same motor, different config/overall design


Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 21 Mar 2015 00:24

Pretty clean burn for a missile.. visually very hard to track

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_22733 » 21 Mar 2015 02:27

Russian Satan ICBM has a clean burn like that.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 21 Mar 2015 03:34

ramana wrote:Good to know th Phase 3 achieved in 2015 i.e. 2 years from the above news report.


True. Though the first Su-30 captive flight trial took way back in c. 2009, the Astra was completely redesigned by c. 2012 timeframe.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby symontk » 21 Mar 2015 08:50

From the flame photocs, only SD-10 has solid motor, others (Astra, Adder) have liquid engines, any new photos from Astra showing the latest changes, maybe now it has been made as solid motor

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby abhik » 21 Mar 2015 08:57

LokeshC wrote:Russian Satan ICBM has a clean burn like that.

Yup, but that's a liquid fueled missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_22733 » 21 Mar 2015 09:03

That must be some insane fuel. Solid fuels dont give a very clean burn, AFAIK.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 21 Mar 2015 10:28

symontk wrote:From the flame photocs, only SD-10 has solid motor, others (Astra, Adder) have liquid engines, any new photos from Astra showing the latest changes, maybe now it has been made as solid motor


Symontk, the Astra and Adder both have solid engines and the motor of the Astra remains the same as earlier. The Barak-8 motor will be used (likely) for the Astra-2, dual pulse for greater range and capability.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 21 Mar 2015 10:32

LokeshC wrote:That must be some insane fuel. Solid fuels dont give a very clean burn, AFAIK.


India's tryst with clean motors began with Nag. IIRC even Trishul motor was redesigned later.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby hnair » 21 Mar 2015 10:38

yep, Astra flame looks boss. The reasonably close ones are the AIM-120C launches off Raptor's bay

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sid » 21 Mar 2015 11:01

Recent Astra's launch looks similar to this test. What gives?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1bWlNbZVpBE/T ... 2%2529.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby negi » 21 Mar 2015 12:08

Going by what we use in other platforms it has to be HTPB as binder along with some inorganic salt like Ammonium perchlorate as oxidizer , the colour might change if they play around with additives like Aluminium (used in Agni series , it gives that dense white smoke ) . Clean flame might be because of higher proportion of oxidizer .

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sudhan » 21 Mar 2015 13:22

Sid wrote:Recent Astra's launch looks similar to this test. What gives?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1bWlNbZVpBE/T ... 2%2529.jpg


Don understand.. The recent launch was from an Su30.. This seems to be from the ground and from the looks of it, its not Astra but a Super 530. Note the smoky motor.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby rakall » 21 Mar 2015 13:54

sudhan wrote:
Sid wrote:Recent Astra's launch looks similar to this test. What gives?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1bWlNbZVpBE/T ... 2%2529.jpg


Don understand.. The recent launch was from an Su30.. This seems to be from the ground and from the looks of it, its not Astra but a Super 530. Note the smoky motor.


Thats not Super530.. That is Astra in its earlier version..
After a few problems with this version Astra was redesigned into a totally new configuration..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby pankajs » 21 Mar 2015 14:02

Karan M wrote:Image

Google chacha and wiki mamu seems to suggest that we *might* have moved on to CL-20 based fuel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-fue ... ropellants
One of the most active areas of solid propellant research is the development of high-energy, minimum-signature propellant using CL-20 (China Lake compound #20), C6H6N6(NO2)6, which has 14% higher energy per mass and 20% higher energy density than HMX. The new propellant has been successfully developed and tested in tactical rocket motors. The propellant is non-polluting: acid-free, solid particulates-free, and lead-free. It is also smokeless and has only a faint shock diamond pattern that is visible in the otherwise transparent exhaust. Without the bright flame and dense smoke trail produced by the burning of aluminized propellants, these smokeless propellants all but eliminate the risk of giving away the positions from which the missiles are fired. The new CL-20 propellant is shock-insensitive (hazard class 1.3) as opposed to current HMX smokeless propellants which are highly detonable (hazard class 1.1). CL-20 is considered a major breakthrough in solid rocket propellant technology but has yet to see widespread use because costs remain high.[14]
The *shock diamond pattern* is clearly visible in the above linked photo and even in the Su30 side shot.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sudhan » 21 Mar 2015 14:08

rakall wrote:
Thats not Super530.. That is Astra in its earlier version..
After a few problems with this version Astra was redesigned into a totally new configuration..


You could be right.. The 530 family is a bit stubbier..in the ground launch pic, it seems a bit slender... The other thing that caused the doubt was the placement of the mid-body fins closer to the tail of the missile. The Astra had it not so close to the tail... Also, AFAIR Astra never had a smoky motor..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sagar G » 21 Mar 2015 17:44

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · Mar 19

Now that the Astra program has reached fruition, foreign beyond visual range air to air missiles are being offered at cut rate prices!


It's only out of love for India you know, absolutely no hidden motive at all !!!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sanjaykumar » 21 Mar 2015 23:56

The *shock diamond pattern* is clearly visible in the above linked photo and even in the Su30 side shot.


Yes but there is minimal conisation that is nozzle dispersal, much like US missiles. Specially prominent in the Chinese missile above.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 22 Mar 2015 10:03

pankajs, You got it. Its special fuel.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby symontk » 22 Mar 2015 11:10

ramana wrote:pankajs, You got it. Its special fuel.


yes and if that is settled, we can strongly believe that Aksah -2 may be Astra from ground and also PDV the newer version of PAD will be using the same. The Dhanush tests were for testing this new fuel and now got validated and so PAD derived from Prithvi and PDV derived from Dhanush. Things are more clearer now. Pritivi derived from a older Russian SAM engine helped a lot I beleive to generate the Pritivi platform for all kinds of tests

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby symontk » 22 Mar 2015 11:12

rakall wrote:
Thats not Super530.. That is Astra in its earlier version..
After a few problems with this version Astra was redesigned into a totally new configuration..


Astra's older version with old fashioned solid motor and now moved to the new fuel

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 22 Mar 2015 11:15

its a duplicate of the amraam flame pattern
http://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uplo ... AMRAAM.jpg

and neither it leaves a smoke trail as it goes.

compare to the AIM7 sparrow and its thick smoke trail and bright flame. will light up a good IRST from a distance.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... rrow_3.jpg

the china PL12 flame seems to be even worse than the aim7 sparrow, like someone set a house on fire!
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vPHFk3Nf9BM/U ... _PL-12.jpg

the mica is as tfta flamewise as the astra and amraam
http://i.imgur.com/04vMLpw.jpg

python4, so its a safe bet python5 and derby will be tfta as well
http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/up ... issile.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby symontk » 22 Mar 2015 11:17

Can they use the same new fuel for MLRS too since that would hide the smoke trails? or that is called the Pinaka 2?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 22 Mar 2015 11:28

there is not much point to hide the smoke trails of a MLRS as they would fire from deep behind the line on mostly static targets.
ie. not unless enemy airpower were dominant and hunting closely our artillery units.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby tsarkar » 22 Mar 2015 12:51

Chinese BVR AAM are all derived from Italian Aspide which is a derivative of the US Sparrow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL-12#Development_history
During Air Show China 1996, held during November in Zhuhai, the China Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute/No 607 Research Institute exhibited a newly developed active radar seeker, the AMR-1. This seeker was, in turn, believed to have been applied to a new air- to-air missile design, derived from the LY-60 surface-to-air missile, and dubbed the 'PL-12'. This active radar missile, and the earlier semi-active radar homing PL-11, seemed to have a common design heritage with the Italian Aspide missile, supplied to China during the late 1980s.


The article clearly mentions SD-10 as Aspide derivative with R-77 seeker, SD-10A as compatible with Western FCS, and PL-12 with a new dual pulse motor.

Astra is a successful program, and note how Air HQ and HAL are supporting it. If the IIR seeker developed for Nag be suitably modified for Astra, then we've achieved self reliance here. Mk1 44 km range is a decent figure in real world combat, where 100+ km range is difficult to practically achieve because of reliable tracking and IFF issues.

@Karan - R-77 issues were manufacturing & QC rather than design. They were built during the worst days of the Russian industry.

Even Sea Eagle missiles had issues that were locally rectified. And the British, instead of rectifying those issues, stupidly dumped it for US Harpoon.


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