Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JE Menon » 24 Sep 2015 08:58

And K is for Kalam.

member_28609
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 9
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28609 » 24 Sep 2015 09:14

Karthik S wrote:http://armingindia.com/Nuclear%20Triad%20In%20Place%20India%20Gets%20K-4%20SLBM%20Out%20Of%20The%20Closet.htm

Nuclear Triad In Place: India Gets K-4 SLBM Out Of The Closet


Is there an alternate link to this news? somehow the office firewall preventing it from opening...thanks.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12423
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Sep 2015 10:20

Karthik S wrote:http://armingindia.com/Nuclear%20Triad%20In%20Place%20India%20Gets%20K-4%20SLBM%20Out%20Of%20The%20Closet.htm

Nuclear Triad In Place: India Gets K-4 SLBM Out Of The Closet


Nuclear Triad will not be in place unless, Arihant fires this and along with its brother/sisters like Arindham etc are out on deterrence patrols.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 24 Sep 2015 10:53

we need 3 successful testfires from sea to declare it operational. and then a few months of deterrence patrols in the IOR to make tall claims of triad.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4067
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kit » 24 Sep 2015 11:30

Are the K 15 launches put out on the media ? .. i suppose just like the arihant trial runs they will be advertised after it happens ?

member_28108
BRFite
Posts: 1852
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28108 » 24 Sep 2015 13:00

There was one video showing a K4 launc probably from an underwater pontoon. With so much opaqueness regarding Arihant you can not say if weapon trials are already over!

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2782
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JTull » 24 Sep 2015 17:50

Singha wrote:we need 3 successful testfires from sea to declare it operational. and then a few months of deterrence patrols in the IOR to make tall claims of triad.


Pontoon launches validate the missile and sub-launch validates the platform. One sub-launch is enough for each new missile unless there are significant changes in the launch processes and sub's buoyancy controls.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 24 Sep 2015 17:55

they need to test it in operation begemot mode and fire all 4 missiles one after another to test the automatic buoyancy control system also.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54823
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 24 Sep 2015 19:02

Sub-launch is primarily for the crew and the chain of command.

I think six K15s and two K4 will be the load out.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2782
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JTull » 24 Sep 2015 19:15

Ripple test is not needed to declare existence of a triad! I couldn't find any literature that states US or Russia were deemed to have a 3rd strike capability only after a ripple test.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 24 Sep 2015 20:32

but sir, as a minimal deterrent with 1 SSBN, we need to project a show of force. the US/Russia went in with 1000s of bombs and missiles and were quite ok if a couple subs blew up or sank in the water......maximalist stick approach.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2782
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JTull » 24 Sep 2015 20:41

I think mere existence of a triad is different from having a credible deterrence. For which, I agree, we need multiple subs patrolling at any given time. We cannot have that overnight, but a demonstration of a launch from Arihant will be enough for one of our neighbours. To take care of the other, we'll have to wait that little bit longer. But even then you won't be able to stop them being belligerent. GoI is already working on this Asian nexus with Japan and Australia (with US) to address that.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2659
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prem Kumar » 24 Sep 2015 22:49

News about K4 & K15 are scratchy at best - by design. By the time they revealed K15 (B05), they had already completed 10 successful tests :shock:

K4 testing will be no different. News reports say 2 were completed. I think video of 1 was released. Many more have been conducted, I am sure (from pontoons)

Suresh S
BRFite
Posts: 790
Joined: 25 Dec 2008 22:19

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Suresh S » 24 Sep 2015 23:07

MSR Prasad and his team sdre but true heros of mother India. But this news is not going to be publicised by the less than worthless presstitutes of India.I bow my head in front of you sir. keep it up for our country.

jai Hind

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 24 Sep 2015 23:10

ARDE is working on converting 450kg penetrating warheads (HSLD bombs) to work with IAF's Israeli Griffin LGB kits. :mrgreen:
"to defeat concrete targets with precision"
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/vie ... icro=12902

member_23370
BRFite
Posts: 1103
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 24 Sep 2015 23:25

I don't see why we should worry about presstitutes not covering our scientists. I would rather they be rewarded and revealed once the system is fully deployed and ready to be used. They should be protected and identities kept secret.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1739
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 25 Sep 2015 10:02

Karan M wrote:ARDE is working on converting 450kg penetrating warheads (HSLD bombs) to work with IAF's Israeli Griffin LGB kits. :mrgreen:
"to defeat concrete targets with precision"
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/vie ... icro=12902


Yep. They asked for time delay fuzes (suitable for 80-1000kg class bombs) about an year and half back.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24189
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 25 Sep 2015 13:57

From the report posetd by Karthik,
Both the K-4 and the K-15 have been successfully test-fired multiple times from underwater pontoons to establish their capability to exit the water and then hit a target on land.


We are aware of one K-4 test in March 2014. Obviously, others (before and after) went without much fanfare or well disguised as something else. In any case, great work.


Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 26 Sep 2015 00:11

man these guys should just do the darn thing, we have been hearing of brahmos-a for several years now, instead of these constant updates.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54823
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 26 Sep 2015 02:46

^^^ From AM V.K. Bhatia. Gives schedule:
Notably, the purchase of over 200 air-launched BrahMos missiles for the IAF had been cleared by the CCS (Cabinet Committee on Security) way back on October 19, 2012 at the cost of around $1 billion. As per the original plan, the first test of the air-launched version of the missile was to be conducted by December 2012, but as would be obvious, the entire programme has been delayed by about three years. According to the sources, while the process of integrating the BrahMos onto the Su-30 MKIs was initiated in 2010, the governmental approval to install the missile onto the modified fighter came only in early 2014.




So December 2015 flight.

two things;

Brahmos-A
Su-30MKI changes

About right timeline.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 26 Sep 2015 03:05

200 Brahmos @ $1 billion comes to around $5 million per missile.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54823
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 26 Sep 2015 03:28

Karan M wrote:ARDE is working on converting 450kg penetrating warheads (HSLD bombs) to work with IAF's Israeli Griffin LGB kits. :mrgreen:
"to defeat concrete targets with precision"
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/vie ... icro=12902


Is HSLD cast or forged steel?

Based on that objective can be realized.

If forged steel has to be high fracture toughness or high KIC steel.

450m/s would make a chapatti.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 26 Sep 2015 05:17

Karan M wrote:man these guys should just do the darn thing, we have been hearing of brahmos-a for several years now, instead of these constant updates.

:D Yeah. Looks like the actual modification of Brahmos to be air deliverable was more complex than seemed to be the case initially. 500 kg lighter and 0.5 meters shorter. That's like virtually a different machine.

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 1177
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shaun » 26 Sep 2015 06:12

^^^
Even the integration part was not that easy , the new pylon is an engineering itself . The interfacing part must have got delayed due to the ruskis being selfish with the source code.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 26 Sep 2015 16:15

shiv wrote:
Karan M wrote:man these guys should just do the darn thing, we have been hearing of brahmos-a for several years now, instead of these constant updates.

:D Yeah. Looks like the actual modification of Brahmos to be air deliverable was more complex than seemed to be the case initially. 500 kg lighter and 0.5 meters shorter. That's like virtually a different machine.


Brahmos releases an interview every other week, and most of these have had a reference to the Brahmos-A for several years now. :lol:
Anyways, it will be a powerful tool, even at 200 odd units.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 26 Sep 2015 16:19

ramana wrote:
Karan M wrote:ARDE is working on converting 450kg penetrating warheads (HSLD bombs) to work with IAF's Israeli Griffin LGB kits. :mrgreen:
"to defeat concrete targets with precision"
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/vie ... icro=12902


Is HSLD cast or forged steel?

Based on that objective can be realized.

If forged steel has to be high fracture toughness or high KIC steel.

450m/s would make a chapatti.


Doesn't mention the steel but it should be ok given it was designed for hardened targets.

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/ind ... _speed.jsp

Conventional 1000 lb class of aircraft bombs offer more drag, thereby adversely attesting the operational efficiency of modern high speed aircraft. Keeping this in view. DRDO has designed and developed high speed low drag (HSLD) bombs in 450 kg and 250 kg class suitable for carriage and release by modern aircrafts. These bombs are effective against ground targets like railway yards /bridges, major installations, bunkers, runways and hardened targets.

The bomb consists of two major subsystems, namely. Bomb body ?lled with HE and tail unit. Two types of tail units, Retarder Tail Unit (RTU) for high speed low level bombing and Ballistic Tail Unit {BTU} for high speed high altitude bombing have been developed for the bomb to be used in different tactical roles.

Image

Good way to ensure we leverage existing stuff for guidance kits (imported) and don't have to import high penetration bombs at 2x the cost of the regular LGB.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 26 Sep 2015 16:23

Also makes me think we ordered a ton of Griffin kits. SIPRI says only 750 kits (250 Griffin + 500 NG LGB) but its probably an underestimate.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 26 Sep 2015 16:32

http://www.defproac.com/?p=1723
Col Anil Kumar (rtd) on DRDO's armaments programs

DRDO NG-LGB (fixes the rolling issue because of which Sudarshan was dropped) to be ready this year (basically design fixed, trials etc TBD)
Wonder what the status is. DRDO has literally clamped down on all info regarding its programs.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 26 Sep 2015 16:35

hawks and have-nots are always circling to kill desi projects with generous make-in-india offers.

but 'design' is also important for defence products, because OEM design leads to easy updates and a family of products without huge costs later.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 26 Sep 2015 16:42

i think once we have our own family of seekers and software/design modules ready, we can do a lot of mix and match for our PGMs like russia and US have done, and which china is also achieving. time is running out. for a single 100mn$ rafale we could get around a 1000 PGMs if economy of scale and public-pvt partnership was solidly leveraged.

khadi gramudyog funding till date has meant limited gains and focus. speaks volumes that we are barely able to run a few UAV programs and munition programs together. all the hankering over big ticket imports misses all these crucial things.

hopefully namo and co won't be penny wise and pound foolish. UPA of course had a vested interest in keeping the imports flowing in specific areas without making a huge difference to our actual warfighting capability.

by now in any country with a sane MOD which actually tracked and coordinated programs, these low hanging fruit would have been funded and made viable. instead the saint did nothing and wasted an entire decade.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 26 Sep 2015 16:54

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/wp-c ... R-30.3.pdf

Getting more from less - Gp Capt Noronha

DRDO NG-LGB will have a range of around 50-100 km and should be available soon
IAF has ordered large number of PGMs especially for the Mirage 2000

member_23370
BRFite
Posts: 1103
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 26 Sep 2015 20:59

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/09/ ... e.html?m=1

Good news if true. IN needs a 100 km range SAM.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cybaru » 27 Sep 2015 02:43

Which could also mean that Akash-2 may have longer range than the 10km extra being published. Otherwise they would all be serving the same strategic missions.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 27 Sep 2015 09:38

Karan M wrote:http://www.indiandefencereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/IDR-30.3.pdf

Getting more from less - Gp Capt Noronha

DRDO NG-LGB will have a range of around 50-100 km and should be available soon
IAF has ordered large number of PGMs especially for the Mirage 2000

Sounds like a hybrid between powered AASM and glide bomb.

Anyways, I had posted something short a while back on Rafale thread that the IAF should look at force multiplers to increase effectiveness of its dwindling number of squadrons rather than just try to shore up squadrons through very expensive Rafale acquisition. For $8 billion, it can acquire a lot in this regard. I'm glad that there are people who have served in the IAF like Gp Capt Noronha stating similar view points!

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1739
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 27 Sep 2015 12:45

Karan M wrote:http://www.defproac.com/?p=1723
Col Anil Kumar (rtd) on DRDO's armaments programs

DRDO NG-LGB (fixes the rolling issue because of which Sudarshan was dropped) to be ready this year (basically design fixed, trials etc TBD)
Wonder what the status is. DRDO has literally clamped down on all info regarding its programs.


NG-LGB (Garuda) has been in testing for three years now. The 100 km range seems to be for Garuthma variant (glide bomb). Earlier ranges quoted for NG-LGB were in the 30-50 km range.
The SDRE dhotiwallas have started to grasp some basics of media game.

Project in a traditional strength of DRDO, going well with client on board, hush hush. (missiles, munitions and PGMs)
DDM: We have heard rumours about XYZ PGM. What would you like to say about it.
DRDO: Aage ja BC !!


Project doing OK with lukewarm response from client, leak it via Saurav Jha, other serious defence publications, try to counter some propaganda.
DDM: Your ryfle ij phail, you suxx. What would you like to say about it.
DRDO: But but look at my new rifle, it so shiny !!


Project limping around, too much bad history with client (Tejas), sweep it under the carpet.
DDM: Your plane is phail, you suxx. What would you like to say about it.
DRDO: Aage ja BC !!

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 27 Sep 2015 15:55

Thakur_B wrote:NG-LGB (Garuda) has been in testing for three years now. The 100 km range seems to be for Garuthma variant (glide bomb). Earlier ranges quoted for NG-LGB were in the 30-50 km range.
The range for a regular LGB can be pretty high too depending on alt, launch conditions etc.
Are you sure though that the NG-LGB is Garuda? It could be a different GPS/INS guided bomb as well.

MOD AR 2014-15
" ASB Glide: Non-winged version of guided bomb having a range of 30 km has been named as "Garuda"™ and winged version of
this weapon having 100 km range is called as "Garuthma"™. Garuda store has been successfully released from the Su-30 MKI
aircraft during 2013. Transfer alignment and safe separation have been proven as part of development trials of Garuda. Wing kit
realization and wind tunnel tests have been completed as a part of development trials of winged version Garuthma. Garuthma
drop trials were conducted successfully on December 19, 2014 in Bay of Bengal off the Odisha coast.



The SDRE dhotiwallas have started to grasp some basics of media game.


I am not sure of that. There is very little coordination. Depending on the lab, journos contacts, they get info. Guys like Saurav Jha are getting info, purely because of interest and driving the engagement. Not really being given regular, high level updates, otherwise they'd be preempting queries not answering them. Only one who could swing interviews anytime using political connections was Ajai Shukla and Coup-ta. People like Rajat Pandit etc feed off scraps of info from MOD leaks and talking to the occasional service guys (mixed with dollops of own bias). Other ones in his ilk are Bedi and VivekR of DN. Coup-ta's acolytes share his shady proclivities including the Pubby's etc.

DRDO's reaction seems to be still haphazard, driven by some mix of naive 'we shall overcome'/ media is sancrosanct and the fact that many individual DRDO folks loathe the media. I could make this mix of attitudes out when I interacted them with at some public show and they were very open about their contempt for the media. This was when Coupta was running his usual stuff. Meanwhile some DRDO bigwigs were giving soundbytes to the very jokers who were calling them names.

Generally it seems they are running silent on key programs. Then a Tech Focus comes along and everyone is like WTF.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1739
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 27 Sep 2015 17:06

Karan M wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:NG-LGB (Garuda) has been in testing for three years now. The 100 km range seems to be for Garuthma variant (glide bomb). Earlier ranges quoted for NG-LGB were in the 30-50 km range.
The range for a regular LGB can be pretty high too depending on alt, launch conditions etc.
Are you sure though that the NG-LGB is Garuda? It could be a different GPS/INS guided bomb as well.

MOD AR 2014-15
" ASB Glide: Non-winged version of guided bomb having a range of 30 km has been named as "Garuda"™ and winged version of
this weapon having 100 km range is called as "Garuthma"™. Garuda store has been successfully released from the Su-30 MKI
aircraft during 2013. Transfer alignment and safe separation have been proven as part of development trials of Garuda. Wing kit
realization and wind tunnel tests have been completed as a part of development trials of winged version Garuthma. Garuthma
drop trials were conducted successfully on December 19, 2014 in Bay of Bengal off the Odisha coast.



Well the NG-LGB was running in parallel to Sudarshan. If Garuda is not NG-LGB then it too shall overlap with Sudarshan. To have a third guided kit project running at the same time from the same organisation seems highly unlikely even in khan chacha land.

The SDRE dhotiwallas have started to grasp some basics of media game.


I am not sure of that. There is very little coordination. Depending on the lab, journos contacts, they get info. Guys like Saurav Jha are getting info, purely because of interest and driving the engagement. Not really being given regular, high level updates, otherwise they'd be preempting queries not answering them. Only one who could swing interviews anytime using political connections was Ajai Shukla and Coup-ta. People like Rajat Pandit etc feed off scraps of info from MOD leaks and talking to the occasional service guys (mixed with dollops of own bias). Other ones in his ilk are Bedi and VivekR of DN. Coup-ta's acolytes share his shady proclivities including the Pubby's etc.



I had the same conversation with a chaiwalla who says that the kind of info Jha releases won't be out unless people on the inside wanted that info released or were yearning for their side of story to be heard, given that his articles and tweets cover all major labs of DRDO.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Surya » 27 Sep 2015 17:15

I had the same conversation with a chaiwalla who says that the kind of info Jha releases won't be out unless people on the inside wanted that info released


Not just inside....

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4008
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby deejay » 27 Sep 2015 18:16

srai wrote:
Karan M wrote:http://www.indiandefencereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/IDR-30.3.pdf

Getting more from less - Gp Capt Noronha

DRDO NG-LGB will have a range of around 50-100 km and should be available soon
IAF has ordered large number of PGMs especially for the Mirage 2000

Sounds like a hybrid between powered AASM and glide bomb.

Anyways, I had posted something short a while back on Rafale thread that the IAF should look at force multiplers to increase effectiveness of its dwindling number of squadrons rather than just try to shore up squadrons through very expensive Rafale acquisition. For $8 billion, it can acquire a lot in this regard. I'm glad that there are people who have served in the IAF like Gp Capt Noronha stating similar view points!


Srai ji, Force Multiplier is a term much bandied about in IAF since ages. A lot of work, study and papers have been written on it for a long time.

Gp Capt Naronha's is a good assessment but not the first on these lines. I do agree with his views. These 'force multipliers' are also things which will need to be acquired and are being acquired.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 41 guests