Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Sep 2015 17:23

^^ both I think.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/13912/ ... e2HYVNDSFA

China's DF-26 Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile (IRBM), expected to be unveiled in the September 3 Military Parade is significantly smaller in size and weight as compared to India's Agni-V but can hit targets with greater precision while carrying heavier warheads.

Several Chinese media such as Sina.com claimed that the Chinese missile was "vastly superior" to Agni- V even though the Indian missile was comparable to it in terms of range.

Significantly, the DF-26 did not have a competitor in Russia or the US as both countries, being signatories to the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty signed by Reagan and Gorbachev in 1987, could not have missiles greater than 500 km. The treaty eliminated nuclear and conventional ground-launched ballistic and cruise missiles with intermediate ranges, defined as between 500-5,500 km.

The DF-4 can carry 3 million tons of TNT for a range of 4,750 km and has been used as a core weapon of the PLA's Second Artillery Corps since it entered service in the 1980s.

China is eyeing to replace its existing DF-4 by DF-26.

The DF-26, a two-stage solid-fuel rocket IRBM, is reportedly 14 meters long with a diameter of 1.4 m and a launch weight of 20 tons. It can carry a nuclear or conventional warhead weighing 1,200-1,800 kilograms and has an estimated maximum range in excess of 5,000 km.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Sep 2015 18:04

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/f ... 622922.ece
what about >1500 km testing?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Sep 2015 20:00

our ABM systems AD1 and AD2 will likely max out @ 1500km for intercept slant range .... idea is to deal with high quality IRBMs first before dreaming of ICBM.

probably shourya vehicle has a role to play in ad1/ad2

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 08 Sep 2015 05:03

The IN's tracking ship seems to be similar in concept to the french Monge, with which it even shares some basic design. Though the Indian ship is half in tonnage as compared to the french one

Monge (A601)

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 08 Sep 2015 05:09

Floating test range details.
http://thumkar.blogspot.in/2015/09/ball ... ase-2.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Sep 2015 09:14

nice pic that shows the diff between PAD (85km ceiling, liquid fueled, radar proximity seeker) and PDV (120km ceiling, solid fuel, IIR seeker)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--6p5Y_7gOWg/U ... AD_PDV.jpg

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2015 09:28

Thakur_B wrote:Floating test range details.
http://thumkar.blogspot.in/2015/09/ball ... ase-2.html

This floating test range is going to be stationed in the ocean to fire missiles from a long way away for test interception. It is not (as far as I can tell) simply a tracking ship

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Sep 2015 13:23

afaik regular IN ships radar and EO gear have been used for tracking the terminal phase of our agni tests. the Fregat for example can probably track such objects from 200km out.

but the big aperture antennas in that french ship might permit tracking for a much longer range and ceiling...useful when one considers the ICBM ceiling is allegedly 250km and due to higher speed need tracking from preferably 2000km out. the huge cobra XX radars in those american test ships do that.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Sep 2015 14:28

photo of the raytheon ekv exo atmospheric kill vehicle developed for the next leg up from thaad
http://www.ausairpower.net/S-500-Triumf ... -EKV-1.jpg

mody · Post by **mody** » 12 Sep 2015 15:44

Are there any photos of Agni series missiles in the deployed or operational configuration? Something similar to the chinese missiles as they were displayed during the recent military parade. Missiles mounted on top of high mobility vehicles, either in canister or without canister.

All the photos that I have seen of Agni missiles are either from the tests or from the Republic day parade, where they are displayed more on a display platform then a high mobility deployable platform.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 15 Sep 2015 08:35

Agni-4 test overdue...

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 15 Sep 2015 22:24

Bharat Heavy(???) Dynamics test fires indigenous anti-tank missile

HYDERABAD: Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) officially announced here today that it had successfully test-fired an indigenously developed second generation, 2.8 km range, anti-tank guided missile called Amogha-1.

According to a press release issued by the defence public sector unit, the test firing was carried out on September 10 at Babina Army Range in Madhya Pradesh.

"This is the first ever design and developmental effort in respect of missiles by BDL, Hyderabad. Amogha-I miss ..
Bharat Heavy Dynamics test fires indigenous anti-tank missile

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 15 Sep 2015 22:27

hanumadu wrote:Bharat Heavy(???) Dynamics test fires indigenous anti-tank missile

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/48975211.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

HYDERABAD: Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) officially announced here today that it had successfully test-fired an indigenously developed second generation, 2.8 km range, anti-tank guided missile called Amogha-1.

According to a press release issued by the defence public sector unit, the test firing was carried out on September 10 at Babina Army Range in Madhya Pradesh.

"This is the first ever design and developmental effort in respect of missiles by BDL, Hyderabad. Amogha-I miss ..

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Sounds like CLGM

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Sep 2015 22:33

More like a localized Milan-2T
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/milan/

The CLGM goes upto 5km
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZwTu23PBkdU/U ... CLGM-1.jpg

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 15 Sep 2015 22:45

yup that's what i am thinking , BDL have licence to build milans which happens to be 2nd gen wire guided , Amogha-1 too should be wire guided for its range ( speculations ) .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Sep 2015 23:50

hanumadu wrote:Bharat Heavy(???) Dynamics test fires indigenous anti-tank missile

.....

Its by PTI after all which has piss poor journalist skills yet is the crown jewel of Indian media with its reports sourced by all outlets.

Something is different here.

- BDL says its their development.
- Will be offered to Army after trials are complete.

Maybe its a modernized Milan type missile.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 16 Sep 2015 00:12

Floating Test Range: we have done that in past via Dhanush system deployed on Sukanya class.

This is an opportunity for navy to buy cruisers with IRBM and ICBM launch capability, to facilitate peaceful, safe and less polluting kinetic tests

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 16 Sep 2015 05:07

HT: Maiden tests of air-launched BrahMos from November
Rahul Singh, Hindustan Times, New Delhi| Updated: Sep 15, 2015 23:49 IST

India will carry out maiden tests of its air-launched BrahMos supersonic cruise missile from specially-modified Sukhoi-30 fighter planes from November, BrahMos Aerospace CEO Sudhir Mishra told HT.

Four flight tests will be conducted over a period of six months before the missile is declared ready for deployment on the fighter planes towards mid-2016. The actual missile will be tested in April 2016 following three dummy tests.

The Nasik division of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has modified two Su-30 fighters to carry the 2.5-tonne missile, the world’s fastest supersonic cruise missile. The second aircraft is expected to be delivered to BrahMos Aerospace by September-end.

The BrahMos missile, an Indo-Russian joint venture, provides India the capability to hit targets 290km away at nearly three times the speed of sound. The missile’s land and naval variants — 500kg heavier than the air version — are already in service.

“The missile will give the IAF extended range capability. No other Air Force has such a powerful cruise missile in its inventory,” Mishra said. The BrahMos missile has three existing variants: Block-I (anti-ship), Block-II (land to land) and Block-III (with steep dive capabilities for mountain warfare).

The BrahMos missile is also expected to be deployed on six high-tech submarines to be built in India under the Rs 65,000-crore Project P-75I. Mishra said the joint venture was also pressing the accelerator on the BrahMos NG (next generation) missile project. Once ready, the NG missile, weighing only 1.4 tonnes, can be deployed on smaller warships and medium-weight fighter planes.

“We are in the process of freezing the design and specifications of BrahMos-NG. We are also talking to users to give us an indication of their requirements,” Mishra said.

BrahMos Aerospace is also developing India’s first hypersonic missile. Capable of travelling at a speed of 8,575 kmph, the missile could be ready in five to seven years. BrahMos-II (K) will be capable of taking out hardened targets such as underground bunkers and weapon storage facilities at seven times the speed of sound (Mach 7). As first reported by HT on August 8, the K in it is for Kalam.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 16 Sep 2015 06:18

^^^^^

They have flight tested with dummies before , is this dummy test for 2nd modified a/c ?? They seems to have hit a road block with this air launched version ( repeated revisions in launch dates ) , the issues never made it to public. Three dummy test and one actual missile test will make it operational !! whats cooking .

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Sep 2015 07:18

^^^

They haven't flight tested it yet. Up to this point, integration were done on the ground plus other R&D activities such as simulations and wind tunnel modeling.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 16 Sep 2015 08:01

sorry , my bad ...a/c tested with missile launcher , instrument flight test . I guess that should be completed by now . But three dummy test and one actual test will make it operational !!!! anyway these a/c are for SFC or IAF ??

member_26535 · Post by **member_26535** » 16 Sep 2015 10:22

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/150916/n ... nk-missile

Out of the blue. Do not remember reading anything like this being WIP. Any further updates available ?

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 16 Sep 2015 10:52

^^^ read the posts above

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 16 Sep 2015 13:47

RKumar wrote:^ If remember around 2 years back ... it was mentioned it will take 5 years to develop.

Now after 2 years ... it might take 6-7 years. So we have already lost 4 years

No Actually I am reading this since 2010 that it will be ready in 5 to 6 years. Not a long time back there was a news that engine was ready but materiel to protect electronics of Missile is missing. Once the material is realized, it will be test flown.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 16 Sep 2015 14:33

The reason for the delays in operationalizing the Brahmos on the Super 30 MKI I believe has more to do with one of the core intentions. Majority of the modifications to the aircraft were not just the hardening of the undercarriage but also hardening of the aircraft's electronics against EMP. These Brahmos are slated to be deployed from the Super MKI for the SFC. The first two were modified for this role, possibly incorporating test versions of AESA, new gen OLS, new gen cockpit. These aren't vanilla MKI anymore. When these are fully tested, the rest of the 40 will pave for full production versions of the SFC specific Super MKI.

The missile too had to be hardened in order to over-come heavy EW zones & perhaps program new adaptive terminal maneuvers to ensure survivability in dense air defense environments. One of the keys roles for the Brahmos-A on the Super MKI will be tactical nuke strike. If one recalls, the orders for over 200+ Brahmos-A were placed quite some time ago in order to ensure missiles are ready when the N-warheads need to be mated. I believe by end of next year, with the SFC MKI, we will have ready to fire N-Brahmos ready to roll in minutes.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 16 Sep 2015 15:22

those are mere speculations or things to be incorporated later, why not test fire plain vanilla brahmos from plain vanilla mki. they had issues, first with weight reduction, then adapter. Going by past reports, the sequence for testing is, 1st, instrument flight test most likely for the missile adapter itself, 2nd dummy test of missile and actual firing. The latest news says, the are going for dummy and actual firing,so it can be concluded, instrument flight test is over. where is Philip saab ??

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 16 Sep 2015 16:31

Shaun wrote:those are mere speculations or things to be incorporated later, why not test fire plain vanilla brahmos from plain vanilla mki. they had issues, first with weight reduction, then adapter. Going by past reports, the sequence for testing is, 1st, instrument flight test most likely for the missile adapter itself, 2nd dummy test of missile and actual firing. The latest news says, the are going for dummy and actual firing,so it can be concluded, instrument flight test is over. where is Philip saab ??

Why would you test vanilla Brahmos with vanilla MKI when the main intent is to use the Brahmos for tactical nuke strikes apart from regular roles for the SFC, 42 of which were ordered in 2012. The need for Brahmos to be fired from MKI comes from 2010 when the SFC demanded it. These are intended to have Super MKI upgrades. The aircraft clearly needed work as well as the missile. That aside, Super MKI avionics needed to be made available from Russia, the AESA, new OLS etc. had to be ready before they could take to the aircraft. The delay originates partly from this as well.

Incorporating Super MKI upgrades later was never the plan. The plan was always to have 42 super MKI with Brahmos/Nirbhay ability. The 2 aircraft being used as test beds in my opinion are also being used to validate Super MKI upgrades with Brahmos being in advantage stages of integration and Nirbhay in initial stages.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 16 Sep 2015 16:35

http://www.oneindia.com/india/oneindia- ... 33530.html

The first modified aircraft was only available as of Feb 2015. Instrument tests started in July which means, the aircraft other upgrades were being validated between Feb and July.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 16 Sep 2015 16:37

So you mean to say Brahmos A have only Nuke role ??? The report you linked speaks about the launcher , that itself is complex technology , which have been tested ( validates what i said before ). Air to ground missile integration and testing on a aircraft is a complex task involving interfaces with aerodynamics, engine air intake, control laws, flight control system, avionics system, electrical and other general system of aircraft , are the real reasons of delay and thus the launch date revision . Linking these a/c for nuke delivery will be premature to say at this stage.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 16 Sep 2015 17:10

Shaun wrote:So you mean to say Brahmos A have only Nuke role ???

Brahmos-A with the SFC is bound to a have secondary Nuke role, SFC are the ones who asked for this. Primary roles of the Brahmos-A will be for conventional strikes against 'strategic' hardened targets i.e. destroying strategic weapons storage sites, destroying strategic sub pens etc. You see the China & PAK have a lot of their nuke weapons stored away in mountain bunkers. You will recall that Brahmos Block 3 for this same reason has the ability to pick out tunnel like targets behind mountains. I also believe they have managed to developed new thermobaric warheads for the Brahmos to destroy deep tunnels. The Brahmos's navigation system was further upgraded with help of the Russians, with the Russian general claiming it is now completely capable of being used as a strategic weapon with a range over 500km.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uP2zCY2wb5o/T ... unnels.png

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7285/164 ... 7af1_o.jpg

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/164 ... 81c9_o.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qBBYb66WLHY/T ... B......gif

A secondary role under NCA will be for tactical nuke strikes. I believe with this India will have the ability to have a rapid reaction capability. Also N-armed MKI patrols during a kargil style skirmish with Pak is a strong msg to anyone even thinking of crossing the threshold.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 16 Sep 2015 17:34

Out of an initial order of 216 Brahmos-A for the IAF, we can easily expect between 20-40 missiles tipped with Nuke warheads. Also we can expect Brahmos-M to be deployed on these MKI in the next 2-3 years, being lighter circa 1.4 tons and faster around mach 3.5-5, some of these to will have nuke tips on them for sure as well.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 16 Sep 2015 17:49

Okay for a sec , i take it for granted that brahmos-A have only strategic role ie delivering nukes but what stops them from flight testing the missile, it is not as if a/c should have AESA radar , EMP hardened electronics for flight testing a nuke "capable " missile when there wont be any nuke warhead during tests ( or you think other wise !!!! )Until and unless i hear any news of what your are proclaiming that the 2 MkI are "nuclear ready" or in the "super" configuration , I stand by my view.

As far as rest of the post , about the capabilities of Brah-A , no one is disputing .

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Sep 2015 19:07

main role of brahmos-a would be attack heavily defended targets like airbases, DDGs, weapons depots and radars which would have dense SAM + AAG cover. at present we have a few "popeye" on M2K and a few KH31+KH59 on the MKI. none of these three are as powerful as the brahmos-A spec.

for easier targets the 100km range gliding bombs can be used for standoff attack. needs to be productionised.

for infra targets like going after POL, railways, telecom, bridges I think Nirbhay GLCM will be the weapon of choice.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Sep 2015 19:46

^^ Recall the order of Sagem RLGs for Brahmos.

Shaun, its weapons systems test. Not just the missile from the aircraft.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 16 Sep 2015 20:08

Shaun wrote:Okay for a sec , i take it for granted that brahmos-A have only strategic role ie delivering nukes but what stops them from flight testing the missile, it is not as if a/c should have AESA radar , EMP hardened electronics for flight testing a nuke "capable " missile when there wont be any nuke warhead during tests ( or you think other wise !!!! )Until and unless i hear any news of what your are proclaiming that the 2 MkI are "nuclear ready" or in the "super" configuration , I stand by my view.

As far as rest of the post , about the capabilities of Brah-A , no one is disputing .

Firstly Brahmos A on the MKI will have a conventional strike role, secondly I never said they are meant 'only' for nuke role. Nuke role will be secondary. Thirdly, the missile itself under went lots of changes since the idea of ALCM was launched, hence the missile required further work to in corporate capabilities of Block 3 & block 3+ with upgraded navigation keep in mind the A version has a different launch mechanism. The standard missiles received new capabilities as early as this year. All this takes time to integrate . If you are waiting for some sort of confirmation that the MKI are nukes ready, keep waiting. Won't happen. However, keep in mind who is the user I.e. The strategic forces command, nukes are involved for sure. As for upgrades, the whole idea of AESA and other goodies were floated for exactly these super mki. At the moment, could be test beds are flying with them or could be they aren't, however they are bound to have them now or shortly. My guess is, the AESA is already flying on it.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Sep 2015 20:23

Septimus P read the BDL wiki on Akash payloads.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 16 Sep 2015 20:30

http://www.army-technology.com/projects ... le-system/

MILAN ER missile system development

MBDA and Bharat Dynamics signed a memorandum of understanding at Aero India exhibition in Bangalore, India, in February 2005, for the development and production of the MILAN ER.

Initial test of the complete system with ADT (Advanced Technology) firing post and ER missile was performed in October 2006 in Bourges. The system was qualified by the French DGA (Direction Générale de l'Armement) in January 2007.

A successful series of evaluation trials was completed in March 2007. A series of three industrial test firings of the system were conducted at the DGA's Etablissement d'Expérimentation Technique de Bourges (ETBS) site in central France in April 2008. The three tests were conducted to verify arming distance to demonstrate accuracy over a range of 150m and to evaluate performance against a moving target at a range of 3km.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 16 Sep 2015 21:08

First lets make it clear where we are treading ,any way its going OT
My view about the delay:
1. Challenges in designing new adapter for carrying Barhmos-A
A)HAL had to overcome several difficulties due to limited design data of Su-30 MkI available with them (http://www.oneindia.com/india/oneindia- ... 33530.html)

b)The Indo-Russian cruise missile joint venture, BrahMos Aerospace, is working towards crossing yet another milestone with the dispatch to Russia of two Indian Air Force (IAF) Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets for a retrofit programme that would enable them to launch the aerial version of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile.Integration and testing has been delayed hugely principally by the Sukhoi Design Bureau's reluctance to prioritise cooperation in helping with the modifications required to integrate the missile with the Su-30.( http://www.livefistdefence.com/2013/02/ ... final.html)

C)The Indian Air Force (IAF) challenged both Sukhoi and HAL to propose competing solutions for integrating missile with aircraft. The Indian solution won out handily, and a contract was signed with HAL in January. Already the Brahmos has been mounted under the Su-30MKI's belly, secured on two mounting stations that replace hard points that were designed to carry ten 250-kilogramme bombs."The Russians are most interested in how HAL is integrating the Brahmos. We beat them out in the contract and now they want to know what we're doing," says RP Khapli, who is leading HAL's design team in the project.(http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 446_1.html)

2. Structural modifications , "The aerial version is nearly nine metres long and this requires modifications of the aircraft's fuselage. Since the Sukhoi company is busy with designing a fifth generation fighter, DRDO scientists, along with Russian experts, will carry out the necessary modifications," the official said" (http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mi ... _jets.html)

3. Other Developments : Interfacing Brahmos A with mki avionics too should have been a challenge while dealing with ruskis.

Beside that , According to Mr Pillai missile was ready by 2008 !! "For the airborne version...we had to reduce the mass of the missile and to ensure aerodynamic stability after its separation from the aircraft. The air-launched platform has its own initial speed during the launch of the missile, so we have reduced the size of the booster. Now the missile is ready," Sivathanu Pillai told RIA Novosti in an exclusive interview" (http://www.sputniknews.com/world/20080620/111457741.html)

But according to you , Brahmos-A testing mainly got delayed due to Super su-30 mki programme , r8 ??

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 16 Sep 2015 21:22

Does brahmos-a have payload weight and dimensions to support a physics package?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 24 Sep 2015 02:26

http://armingindia.com/Nuclear%20Triad% ... Closet.htm

Nuclear Triad In Place: India Gets K-4 SLBM Out Of The Closet