Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 13 Jan 2015 21:41

Yagnasri wrote:We may never know full reasons for his removal. From my understanding is NM do not want this kind of extension bussiness. Have been a victim of these extension business in finance sector and legal sector I agree with him. 64 years is good age and people should quite. It is the institution which shall be in a position to continue and has clear sucession plan for every one and ensure that no one is indispensable. Hope this message goes down well with all the people.

Most eminent scientists world-wide are perfectly productive even in their 70s and 80s. Many go onto win international awards in their 70s and 80s including the Nobel prize. The US discontinued age-based retirement in research/academia due to SC judgement that it was age discrimination. Instead they introduced a competitive system i.e. you work as long as you are productive. Today age based retirement is limited to very few institutes and the US is the leader in almost every field. This is not a govt babu job of signing papers.
These people have decades of experience. Age based retirement of scientist/academics is suitable for socialist countries where your job is permanent regardless of productivity or shortage economy like India where there are too many young people but not enough jobs.

I hope his not getting extension is performance-based.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 13 Jan 2015 21:45

Many of these elders are indeed in our system as consultants for eg Roddham Narsimha and UR Rao but they have learnt to gracefully retire, get accommodated as consultants and still contribute to the nation.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 13 Jan 2015 22:16

The rub in this case is that it was the BJP that gave Chander his extension for 18 months in Nov 2014 and it is now the BJP that is breaking the contract. This has raised some questions. But there seems to be something serious that has just been discovered and a stern message is being sent. Otherwise why so sudden? There was no harm in keeping him in his seat but relieving him of any real duties. This will rattle the entire upper layer at DRDO and even other PSUs.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 14 Jan 2015 03:31

Something big has suddenly happened in the last 44 days for the GOI to take a U turn on the extension.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 14 Jan 2015 03:33

it could be that they found a good enough successor?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 14 Jan 2015 03:50

If reports are to be believed, the successor is not from DRDO but from BARC. That in itself sends a chilling message to the top ranks of DRDO, not even counting the way in which AC was removed.

If something big has in fact taken place or come to light to cause this thunderbolt, it has to be big enough to overshadow Chander's work on missiles over so many years. The only thing that comes to mind is LCA. The nose cone business is hard to swallow and when combined with everything else, even the most patient sanyasi will short circuit. Looks like that may have happened. In a way, I hope we wake up to find this whole thing is a hoax.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 14 Jan 2015 09:09

Anantha Krishnan M @writetake
Follow

#BreakingNews Top sources confirm to @writetake that Def Min Manohar Parrikar had no clue about sacking of DRDO Chief Avinash till ACC meet.
11:57 PM - 13 Jan 2015

If this is true then it could be something similar to what happened to Jaitley.

By the way the Agni-V test is schedule to happen next month.
God speed to all the young scientists of DRDO.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 14 Jan 2015 09:27

I will only say what I said when Ricky Ponting was dropped. For someone who has contributed so much the exit process must be smooth irrespective of any major failures they may have had. Avinash ji could have "voluntarily retired" or something to that effect. That he was sacked would have reached people through grapevine evoking many a chill in the spines of the babus. There is an Indian style of management which has many wonderful things to it like respect for elders etc. This hardly fits into it.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 14 Jan 2015 10:14

Victor wrote:If reports are to be believed, the successor is not from DRDO but from BARC. That in itself sends a chilling message to the top ranks of DRDO, not even counting the way in which AC was removed.

If something big has in fact taken place or come to light to cause this thunderbolt, it has to be big enough to overshadow Chander's work on missiles over so many years. The only thing that comes to mind is LCA. The nose cone business is hard to swallow and when combined with everything else, even the most patient sanyasi will short circuit. Looks like that may have happened. In a way, I hope we wake up to find this whole thing is a hoax.

Last edited by indranilroy on 14 Jan 2015 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Please keep the baseless speculations at bay at this crucial juncture. You were warned on another thread. This is strike 2. Strike 3 will earn you a formal warning.

Indranil, every page in this and other threads is filled with BRFites' speculations. How do you discuss anything without speculations? Or did you mean something else?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Jan 2015 10:58

The gravity of certain subjects are higher than others. For such subjects, e.g. aircrash leading to deaths, we don't speculate out of respect and etiquette towards those involved. We wait for the official line. This is one such subject.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 14 Jan 2015 11:12

indranilroy wrote:The gravity of certain subjects are higher than others. For such subjects, e.g. aircrash leading to deaths, we don't speculate out of respect and etiquette towards those involved. We wait for the official line. This is one such subject.

But curtailing someones freedom of expression through warning just because you don't agree with what is being said is not in good spirit. As a forum member he has every right to speculate unless they are derogatory. Just because he has got warning in some other thread doesn't mean you generalize with every comment of his.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Jan 2015 11:20

ravip wrote:<SNIP>But curtailing someones freedom of expression through warning just because you don't agree with what is being said is not in good spirit. As a forum member he has every right to speculate unless they are derogatory. Just because he has got warning in some other thread doesn't mean you generalize with every comment of his.

First - he was 'cautioned' (by me) not warned.

Secondly - FOE on BRF does not give permit to people indulge in rank speculation. Especially, when their is a slant in your argument calling into question a person's professional competence. By speculating about motives behind his removal w/o any data-point, you're not adding anything to the forum. They simply display your biases. Or prejudice, even. The same yardstick has been used in other cases as well.

Finally - you should have understood by now that forum operates within certain bounds and FOE is not absolute. This is not about what Moderator(s) like or dislike. But a more commonsense based approach keeping in mind the overall forum guidelines and spirit of discussion.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jan 2015 12:04

The functioning of the DRDO across the board has come in for long-standing criticism.Its record has been very patchy.Just look at the list of projects delayed,cost overruns,etc.There is also a dearth of new scientists because of stagnation at the top thanks to repeated extensions. There is nothing to prevent the GOI from still using a reputed scientist on a consultancy ,"on-call" basis when his expertise is required for a specific project,but the organization which now is supposed to have been re-organised into various semi-independent cells with their heads being given greater authority,may have been given his pink tkt because of overall shortcomings of the giant DRDO set-up and not in any way a reflection upon his individual contribution or expertise.One media report said it was because younger scientists felt their promotions and avenues for upward movement were being blocked because of extensions to sr. boffins. A big bold decision though.It should shake up the organization and make people feel more accountable for their responsibilities.

mody · Post by **mody** » 14 Jan 2015 12:14

Some reports suggest that the extension to AVC was authorized by the previous UPA govt.
Also, similar extension to V.K. Saraswat was not given. Now, VKS has been inducted into the new Niti Ayog created by the present govt.
All in all not a good way to do things. By most indications, things were moving in the right direction for many projects, after AVC took over as DRDO chief. Sacking him outright was not the right way to go. Even if he had go, he should have been given the option to voluntarily retire.

-JMT

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 14 Jan 2015 12:20

Certainly his exit could have been handled more gracefully unless there was a major lapse on his part.

Exit at senior levels at retirement need not be a loss to the country. Hopefully, the talented achievers will all be absorbed by the private defense firms. The private sector pie is only going to increase from here providing immense opportunities to these folks.

It will be beneficial to all the parties involved i.e Scientist, private defense firms, DRDO and the country.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 14 Jan 2015 12:23

I get the feeling that no matter how I speculate now, in time I will most probably be proven grossly off the mark. So I won't. The change at the helm could prove to be really bad or really good. We don't know why this has happened.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Jan 2015 12:25

Yup, it should have been handled more gracefully. It gives the media more ammo to drag AC's name through the muck, which given he has not been accused of any wrongdoing, is pretty weird way to handle things and further predisposes him not to work with DRDO etc even though his experience may be required.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 14 Jan 2015 12:54

What DRDO decision has done is sent a message to all PSUs who is the boss. This is territory marking by the Government. I hope it was communicated in private to him before the marching orders. Baffling is the need to put someone from BARC specifically from Arihant Project as head of DRDO.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jan 2015 12:56

Truly mysterious are the way of the mandarins of the MOD and MEA.They love to tread on the toes of those under them and of lesser mortals.Babudom from time to time must rear its ugly head in a display of its brutish authority.The Adm.Bhagwat sacking,Adm.Joshi's resignation after he was humiliated by AKA,AP Venkateswaran's unceremonial sacking too.We now have AC joining the list.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Jan 2015 13:21

Ye lords, i hope this was not another babudom inspired mess. VKS, OROP, fighting against pensioners and now this.
Also, the whole claim by anon sources that AC leaving is good for speeding up promotions in a hierarchical system, is a bit of a farce if you parachute a BARC designer as head of a different organization. Has been done in the past, Raja Ramanna IIRC but things were more fluid then.

http://indiablooms.com/ibns_new/news-de ... ction.html

This explanation by Parrikar is haphazard?
"Post shouldnt be held on contract, younger person required". The new guy is just some 3 years younger.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 14 Jan 2015 13:26

< speculation>
BARC guy as DRDO head means India serious about stronger nuclear posture & more resources,focus for the nuclear arsenal.
< /speculation>

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 14 Jan 2015 13:36

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.be/2015/01/a ... chief.html

So far no confirmation yet, seems likely buttery bs. Even if he needs to be replaced, please at least do it right, the man has for long been one of the key people in our missile efforts. If he needs to replaced, let's do it with dignity.

Sad to see how these media bitches word their crap.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 14 Jan 2015 14:08

-deleted-

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 14 Jan 2015 15:04

Missile thread saars.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 15 Jan 2015 08:20

Parrikar says DRDO chief Avinash Chander too old for the job
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 06625.aspx

.
Chander, 64, may have only 17 days left in the hot seat but he’s
still focused on India’s strategic missile programme, which he
helped shape. Hours after receiving his exit order, the outgoing
DRDO chief told HT exclusively, “I don’t have much time left but
my priority will be to ensure that we conduct the third test of the
Agni-V missile before January 31.”
This will be the 5,000-km range missile’s first canister launch
aimed at injecting more mobility and flexibility into the weapon
system.
“Early induction will boost the military’s capabilities. The test will
be a crucial step towards the missile’s induction and will enhance
our strategic deterrence considerably,” said the man behind the
Agni series of missiles, whose existing variants can hit targets at
ranges of 700 km to 3,500 km.
It will be critical for Chander’s successor to keep the induction of
the 4,000-km range Agni-IV and 5,000-km Agni-V missiles on
schedule.

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 16 Jan 2015 10:12

ravi_g wrote:Only reason India did well in Missilery and Rocketry is because nobody would give missiles beyond 300/300 and absolutely no body would export the nuances of even a rudimentary proportional navigation system without making the importer .....

There is some good news. New Defense procurement policy is coming soon (Six Months). Government is going to put some items in Negative list of Import i.e they can not be imported. This will help a lot in Indigenization. Our armed forces were asking for imported rifles and bullets as well. . DRDO need to be structured like ISRO. How ISRO conceived and executed Mars mission in one and half year is a land mark. DRDO need to follow the footsteps of ISRO.

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 16 Jan 2015 10:20

Yagnasri wrote:We may never know full reasons for his removal. From my understanding is NM do not want this kind of extension bussiness. Have been a victim of these extension business in finance sector and legal sector I agree with him. 64 years is good age and people should quite. It is the institution which shall be in a position to continue and has clear sucession plan for every one and ensure that no one is indispensable. Hope this message goes down well with all the people.

We can hope that Dr. Chander's knowledge and Experience shall be utilized like the appointment of Dr. Saraswat in Niti Ayog.

What Modi is doing is giving a corporate touch of management to rigid bureaucratic structure. Dr. chander should not feel bad about it.

I wish he can launch canistered AV before he separates from DRDO.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Jan 2015 11:32

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... e_Bomb.htm

Labs involved

New Delhi. A 1000-kg glide bomb designed and developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was successfully tested Dec 18 in the Bay of Bengal off the Orissa coast.

The bomb was dropped by an Indian Air Force (IAF) aircraft. Guided by its onboard navigation system, the bomb glided for nearly 100 km before hitting the target with precision, exactly where it was supposed to.

The flight of the glide bomb was monitored by radars and electro-optic systems stationed at Integrated Test Range (ITR). Multiple DRDO laboratories namely, DARE, Bangalore, ARDE, Pune and TBRL, Chandigarh, with RCI, Hyderabad as the nodal laboratory have contributed towards development of the glide bomb. The complete avionics package and navigation system has been designed and developed by RCI.

Dr Avinash Chander, Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, congratulated all the team members, including those from the Air force, for contributing in the success.

Dr Chander, who is also Secretary Department of Defence Production and Director General DRDO, stated: "The nation today has the capability to design, develop and launch heavy bombs for delivery up to 100 km away with high precision” while Dr G Satheesh Reddy, Distinguished Scientist and Director RCI said that India will "now become self-reliant in the area of guided precision bombs.”

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 17 Jan 2015 15:09

3rd launch of Agni-5 Ballistic missile on 31st January.

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 17 Jan 2015 15:27

Ankar wrote:3rd launch of Agni-5 Ballistic missile on 31st January.

This means that Chander saheb shall retire after canister launch of A 5. Good luck to India and Dr. Chander.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Jan 2015 03:51

Fairly interesting. Via the BMD program, RCI has developed:

Imaging Infra-Red Seeker
1.High resolution seekers based on 320 × 256 long wave infra-red Focal Plane Array (FPA) and
2.384×288 medium wave infra-red FPA have been realised. 3.Integration of 128×128 LWIR FPA-based
seekers into PDV missiles for Air Defence Application is in final stages. Captive flight trials have
been conducted for establising the terminal guidance of long-range missiles against fixed targets.
4.Development of 640 × 512 MWIR FPA-based seeker and 5.a miniature seeker has been initiated

Building blocks being put in place for even a SRAAM requirement post Astra as need be, provided compact FPA are available (PDV is a pretty large vehicle). Aim-9X has a 128*128 seeker.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Jan 2015 06:04

Ankar wrote:3rd launch of Agni-5 Ballistic missile on 31st January.

To me it seems like the scientific communities' show off strength with Chander and against Modi. Earlier they were postponing the launch to Feb so that the PM could make it. Now they are just saying this is our farewell gift to Chander (coinciding with his last day). Consider yourself invited. If you can come, great. Otherwise, fine!

Anantha Kriskna M (Tarmak/Writetake) has got it right: Super-charged Agni-5 farewell awaits DRDO Chief

So, whether PM Narendra Modi finds the time to witness the A5 launch or not, after his bonding session with US President Barrack Obama, there's one thing the weathermen are already predicting, off the Odisha coast for January 31. "Clear skies, misty eyes and heavy downpour of emotions."

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Jan 2015 06:20

The crass manner in which AC was dismissed has clearly cost the PM/GOI a lot of goodwill, amongst a bunch of people who were otherwise his greatest supporters with a strong nationalist bent. Completely unnecessary way to have handled this.

In a discussion, the age + contract explanation came up, only to be dismissed as a complete joke.
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/as-ki ... ief-647779

The Appointments Committee of the Cabinet (ACC) has approved Kiran Kumar's appointment for a period of three years on contract basis.

Kiran Kumar is 62 year old, to be 65 by the time the contract ends. Whereas a 64 year old Avinash Chander was dismissed as too old & cant be chief till he was 65, because chiefs cant be on contract. Clear bunkum.

The article by AK notes:

In short, India will probably witness for the first time the launch of a nuclear-capable missile, tipped with emotion, anger and gratitude.

Post-news of the termination of Dr Avinash, the Directors of various labs under the Missile Complex are said to be having a difficult time handling the emotions of younger members of the team. "We are finding it tough to up the morale of the youngsters. Just by mixing two solutions in a lab, you can't become a scientist. The government seems to have forgotten our sacrifices and the contributions of a great soul in our chief" We are happy that our biggest parting gift to him will be the successful launch of A5 missile. We want to give him a dignified farewell," an official said."

This sort of stuff is not good. It has taken an entire decade to build up a committed group in the Hyderabad missile cluster under worthies like Saraswat, Chander & others. GOI has to do enough now to build up morale. Make quick decisions on Chanders replacement, has to be well respected by his peers & the missile groups in particular need to be motivated. This business of no explanations, arbitrary decisions may work with low level bureaucrats and the media, but national organizations like the Armed Forces, ISRO, CSIR, DRDO etc need to be ringfenced from such stuff.

The send off at least is good, in that, at least his teams support will make him feel acknowledged and hopefully feel they got their chance to show their appreciation too and work off some steam. Blue skies sir, and thanks for your service.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Jan 2015 06:36

It is incredibly difficult not to condemn the govt.'s actions. The follow on actions are completely ludicrous and are orthogonal to the purpose cited for the removal of Dr. Chander.
Sacking DRDO Chief Avinash Chander was unprofessional and vindictive

Anyways, not just his team. A lot of countrymen will stand up and salute him and his contributions. I personally have never wanted a missile test to be successful so badly. I am sure the young scientists will leave no stone unturned to make this happen. If this is not the sign of a leader, then what is!

THANK YOU, THANK YOU VERY MUCH! Blue skies and accurate landings sir.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Jan 2015 06:49

Well said sir. Its ironic the BJP manifesto spoke of restoring the izzat etc of the armed services, scientific community & the missteps in Kashmir & now this happened. Chalk it up to inexperience I guess. Anyways, whats done is done and hope they dont repeat it. On a more prosaic note, I hope Modi & GOI are a bit statesmanlike and pull some rabbits out of their hat. Turning up at the function, felicitating Dr Chander & getting him involved in some mission mode programs would go a long way. Also, choosing the next head with care, not using the media to engage in FUD/motivated leaks - VKS vs Chander, this, that (we had a lot of that with UPA) will help.

There are a lot of people in these orgs (DRDO, ISRO etc) who work out of the "pride factor" and not merely money. Over time, emotions will abate and if proper support is given (financial), MOD for specific programs etc and action against vested interests, things will be more positive.

Another positive thing is that Manohar Parrikar seems to be a hands on RM. I hope he takes charge and supports the scientific community and our industry to the hilt. These controversies apart, where he clearly took the fall for decisions made elsewhere, he seems to be logical (eg raise Su-30 serviceability) & with his heart in the right place (not pursue cases against ex servicemen). Hope he'll be a good RM!

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 18 Jan 2015 09:01

A link to Brahmos and its defence from a western perspective.

Also touches on the Barak 8 wrt Brahmos

http://defencyclopedia.com/2014/12/27/e ... s-missile/

The chinese solution to Brahmos

http://idrw.org/?p=56315

However the claims made here against a volley of Brahmos missiles , with an s manouver, (no details on slew/angle to horizontal wrt time might be able to get 2-4 of the volley.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jan 2015 09:08

^^ A lot of assumption there when it says Brahmos has no intelligence , There are talks ( unconfirmed ) that Brahmos can work in wolf pack style along the lines of Shipwreck and there are algorithims that would attack a target in different trajectory not just S type , Also in the video Dr Saraswat mentioned in future Brahmos will have RF and IIR seeker.

Dr Pillai stated that Brahmos would remain undefeated in next 15 years he must have good insight into the system to say that.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 18 Jan 2015 09:50

Eric Leiderman wrote:A link to Brahmos and its defence from a western perspective.

Also touches on the Barak 8 wrt Brahmos

http://defencyclopedia.com/2014/12/27/e ... s-missile/

This isn't a link to anything other than a fanboy blog that give absolutely no credentials of the author. Anytime a weapon system has to be compared to its ability to penetrate a set defense one cannot assess the scenario without having proper context vis-a-vis the type of support assets available to both sides, the context as in location, element of surprise, support and ISR and what other soft assets each side employees (EW, Cyber, aircraft, subs etc). All these elements come into play for both the side trying to sink a well supported target, and an asset trying to operate in a contested environment. The USN routinely puts its defenses to test against subsonic and supersonic weapons flying different profiles and replicating physically the characteristics of what their intel describes as features of the threat. When that threat reaches a level beyond the capability to replicate it, they develop a new target. You also use that data to create your own virtual models. Currently the fast threat is from the GQM-163. In the end you fight with what you have and as such your ability to be "survivable" depends upon how well you integrate all your offensive and defensive measures to protect yourself. A well placed and well supported subsonic missile can potentially disable a carrier if everything works for it, and everything goes wrong for the carrier's support.

Like there is capability in the weapon that may not be fully talked about, there is also likely capability on the other side (Chinese, American etc) that they are likely not discussing loudly either. Its a cat and mouse and the only real way to prepare is to test, test and test some more and to have an integrated defense that uses kinetic and non-kinetic ways to force the adversary to take unfavorable shots by denying it the sweet spot.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Jan 2015 10:15

^^wrong on disadv: brahmos has evasive maneuvering. so, burke survival rate further reduces

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 18 Jan 2015 10:20

SaiK wrote:^^wrong on disadv: brahmos has evasive maneuvering. so, burke survival rate further reduces

The problem is that if you are consistently letting your ship (s) get within range then the lethality of the individual anti-ship weapon does not make a very large difference, the adversary will find a way to get you. The trick is to use all that is at your disposal in an integrated way to stay one step ahead in denying the adversary that opportunity. For the USN it would be to try to make the assets as hard to find in the clutter, and to use the assets that are available with the USN and the COCOM's assets to potentially stay one step ahead. Like I said, if an adversary gets past these measures, it makes little difference if 2 missiles or 3 missiles are required to disable the ship - someone somewhere has dropped the ball. From a purely kinetic training purpose, all simulated threats be it subsonic cruise missiles or ramjet supersonic sea skimmers currently have a high G programmable maneuver to simulate the various threats however that is just demonstrating that you can with your weapons destroy a sea skimming, maneuvering fast missile. Thats it ! That the ESSM, SM6 and Aster have successfully defeated the GQM-163 does not mean that the fast, sea skimming threat is any less important ( especially in the Chinese context) just that your kinetic weapons can deal with it if everything goes according to plan, and that bit is the most important. Elements in the kill chain have to come together, and from a purely "surviving in an A2AD environment", your chain extends to the COCOMS assets including space based ISR along with your offensive ability to deny the adversary the opportunity. Hence you see china maintain multiple ways to deny access to the seas and littorals including the DF21, along with its conventional AshM's. So while a Chinese ship floating around somewhere in the Pacific may fancy a YJ18 shot at a burke, it has to not only contend with the SM6 (with its range and PROVEN ability to shoot down sea skimming supersonic threats and a combination of sea skimming supersonic, and subsonic threats using onboard and off board sensors) but also the B-1's flying overhead laden with 24 LRASM's each with a 300+nm range and with the ability to be launched as fire and forget and programmed through data links or SATCOM's using Tritons and other assets (UCLASS). This is the way the USN plans to integrate its abilities organically and with the COCOM's assets in the region - under the Air Sea Battle Concept.