Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23694 » 04 Jul 2014 16:14

Agni V development cost according to wiki is INR25 billion (US$420 million). No one complained it to be more or less.
The missile is flying and every one is happy.
Nirbhay failed in the first launch which is very much acceptable for any development program and it will definitely succeed and will be manufactured in numbers.
But here the argument is small budget.
Strange :shock:
Later on when the program is success then some high official will state that the entire development cost was less than a hollywood movie.
India's advantage is cost effectiveness and that is why stress on quick development of quality indigenous product. And till then we have to go for import substitute.
Importing defence equipment is not something to be proud of but at the same time being unprepared for any aggression is also not something desired or acceptable.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JTull » 04 Jul 2014 17:12

vic wrote:Total budget for Developing Nirbhay cruise missiles is USD 8 Million dollars. Investment in Harpoon purchases is USD 400 Million for two batches and in Brahmos it is USD 9000 million. Jai Ho Import baba.


That doesn't make sense. Among the missiles for which bulk orders have been given, each unit of Brahmos is about $3mln and that of Akash is $0.5mln. Nirbhay's mass-produced cost estimate has been reported to be Rs 10crore (~$1.7mln). Prototypes always cost more, besides the development budget. 8mln for Nirbhay development seems too low including prototypes, vehicle and missile development.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sid » 04 Jul 2014 22:18

Harpoons must be for P-8I, not HDW. Amereeki deals usually including full set of spare parts for certain number of years, hence may look costly in the beginning.

But India got Urans in numbers, recently bought them for Mig-29s too. How much does that deal cost?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby tushar_m » 04 Jul 2014 22:42

One AGNI 5 fully deployed can stop a war.(from happening)

So development cost of $420 million don't matter. Also rafale cost $125 but 4x125=500 million $$ of rafale unit can't stop a war from happening.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23694 » 04 Jul 2014 23:04

tushar_m wrote:So development cost of $420 million don't matter.

Agreed and even if it had cost double the amount then it should be pursued.
In fact the best motivation for DPSU's should be the Akash missile system. With around $200 million development cost, it has orders worth $5 billion from the services. So a good product will always have a ready buyer.

tushar_m wrote:Also rafale cost $125 but 4x125=500 million $$ of rafale unit can't stop a war from happening

Sorry did not get this point. So we should not have fighter aircraft. The latest Su 30 build by HAL is costing $100 million.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby NRao » 05 Jul 2014 00:29

Sid wrote:Harpoons must be for P-8I, not HDW.


Here

"The estimated cost is $200 million," it said adding that the Harpoon missile system will be employed on the Indian Navy's Shishumar class submarine and will provide enhanced capabilities in defence of critical sea lines of communication.

India has already purchased Harpoon missiles for integration on Indian Air Force Jaguar aircraft and Indian Navy P-8I maritime patrol aircraft. India will have no difficulty absorbing these additional missiles into its armed forces, it said in its notification to the Congress

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby John » 05 Jul 2014 03:57

Best way to counter a missile is to procure them :D.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby tushar_m » 05 Jul 2014 09:51

tushar_m wrote:Also rafale cost $125 but 4x125=500 million $$ of rafale unit can't stop a war from happening

Sorry did not get this point. So we should not have fighter aircraft. The latest Su 30 build by HAL is costing $100 million.


Just building up my earlier point that if we can spend 125million $ on a single fighter plane 420 million $$ development cost of AGNI V is not an issue :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby vic » 05 Jul 2014 21:03

Budget allocated for Nirbhay is only Rs. 50 crores.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Jul 2014 11:12

12mil a piece! Did we evaluate the nsm-jam-kongsberg? And why not the exocet for the sake of commonality?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 07 Jul 2014 11:50

unfortunately it seems the U209 was only ever integrated and tested with the harpoon way back when we got them and nothing changed. no exocet or anything else.
so getting a few harpoons now is the least effort approach. ofcourse the price of harpoon itself is scary...

the scorpenes will come pre certified for the SM39 exocet. so no harpoons needed there.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sid » 07 Jul 2014 12:27

hmmm.. so we will have Exocet, Harpoons and Klubs for a submarine force which has unit count of ~12 or 14!

We certainly made life harder for Porkies as they will never know which weapon is coming their way :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 07 Jul 2014 17:48

jamwal wrote:Pentagon notifies Harpoon missile sale to India

The $200-milion package includes more than a 20 missiles and two Harpoon certification training vehicles, the U.S. Department of Defence said.

The Pentagon has notified the U.S. Congress about its decision to sell anti-ship Harpoon missiles to India at an estimated cost of $200 million arguing that it will strengthen India-U.S. strategic relationship and improve security of an important partner.

The entire package under the foreign military sale route includes more than a dozen UGM-84L Harpoon Block II Encapsulated Missiles, 10 UTM-84L Harpoon Encapsulated Training missiles, and two Encapsulated Harpoon certification training vehicles, the U.S. Department of Defence’s Defence Security Cooperation Agency said.


Its order of around 24 missiles and still the paper writes more than 20 as if they are dealing in thousands.
By the way, why do we need Harpoons for Shishumar ?


Looks like India is once again being gypped by the US.

The US is supplying 65 Tomahawk Cruise Missiles to the UK at USD 140 Million. Deal was notified on the same day as India’s Harpoon deal.

Strange. Long ranged nuclear capable submarine launched sub-sonic cruise missile with a land attack capability package for UK is working out to a whole lot cheaper than India’s Harpoon deal which involves purchase of a lot fewer non-nuclear capable medium ranged sub-sonic submarine launched with some land attack / littoral capability Harpoon Missiles.:

United Kingdom – Tomahawk Block IV Torpedo Launched Land-Attack Missiles

India – UGM-84L Harpoon Missiles

Earlier Harpoon missile sale to India (For P8I / Jaguar) had similar issue of price gouging by US. Then it was reported that Harpoon missiles sold to India were nearly triple the price of those sold to Pakistan:

Harpoons: India to pay US almost three times more than Pak

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Jul 2014 20:43

Looks like us is not freindly to us, we have paid more for C-17's. C-130's, Harpoons (sub and air launched), must be part of the deal for getting us into NSG, we buy stuff at inflated prices.

At the same time I support the arming of Harpoons on the U-209's, given our small sub fleet we needed them to have this capability, wish it was more than 12 though. Now IN sub fleet will have club, exocet, harpoon, B-05 and hopefully Bramhos and K-4 underwater launch able missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby abhik » 07 Jul 2014 21:05

Was arming the U209s with Harpoons really necessary? They are already between 2 and 3 decades old and have function without them all this while.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby aditya_d » 07 Jul 2014 21:13

Talk by Shri Avinash Chander, Secretary Department of Defence R&D, DG R&D and SA to RM

Treasure Trove of info here - including PM Manmohan Singh himself issued the command to launch an ANGI III - testing the chain of command.

fullto paisa vasool for 1 hour talk.

[youtube]IaetX21oNWw&feature=youtu.be&a[/youtube]

updates on all missile systems.. well almost

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prem Kumar » 08 Jul 2014 01:57

arun wrote:Looks like India is once again being gypped by the US.

The US is supplying 65 Tomahawk Cruise Missiles to the UK at USD 140 Million. Deal was notified on the same day as India’s Harpoon deal.

Strange. Long ranged nuclear capable submarine launched sub-sonic cruise missile with a land attack capability package for UK is working out to a whole lot cheaper than India’s Harpoon deal which involves purchase of a lot fewer non-nuclear capable medium ranged sub-sonic submarine launched with some land attack / littoral capability Harpoon Missiles.:


IIRC US also sold Harpoons to Singapore for 1/3 the cost or even less than what India got it for. India pays not just for its own Harpoons but for Pakistan's too. We might as well cut the middleman (US) out and give money to Pakistan directly.

Also, I didnt understand why we didnt negotiate to buy SLAM-ER instead of the long-in-the-tooth Harpoon. The former has a longer range, is much more sophisticated and costs about the same

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 08 Jul 2014 02:07

FMS deal has one component that is just the cost of the missile and the rest that is dependent upon the customer and what the customer desires. You cannot take 2 different FMS deals and compare the overall cost. A harpoon user requests just new missiles with zero integration or support for integration, while a new user has to get a lot lot more as a part of the FMS. Just read the various FMS deals and compare new users to existing users. The FMS deal once given a green light sends the desired hardware demand to the US agency tasked with procuring the same item for the US forces. The Agency then adds the weapon to the demand it sends to the OEM's at the cost it has negotiated for the same. The US government pays the OEM the exact same amount regardless of the intended customer for the missile, the other aspect is variable dependent upon what the FMS deal actually involves. Similarly training costs, size, scope and the amount of logistical supply may be different for different deals and that portion of the deal is subjective and not included in the generic press release and congressional notification (only what is provided is mentioned, not the scope of it). US OEM's that wish to undercut on a program for competitive reasons look to enter into Commercial deals and avoid the FMS route for in it the price negotiations are left to the US government based on its own procurement. The classic example here is Boeing. They were building the F-15K's for South korea and offered South Korea the F-15SE which was a standard F-15K upgraded in a spiral approach. They wished to win at all costs to keep the F-15 program afloat for the future. They chose to keep their bid out of the public (US Government) scruitiny by offering the airframes and the fighters as COMMERCIAL deals and keeping the weapon package as FMS. This was pretty stander practice many decades ago where vendors would undercharge upfront for the weapons system hoping to make huge profits by jacking up the support costs post winning the contract.

http://www.disam.dsca.mil/pubs/Vol%208-1/Comparison.pdf

The Government of India has requested a possible sale of 12 UGM-84L Harpoon Block II Encapsulated Missiles, 10 UTM-84L Harpoon Encapsulated Training missiles, 2 Encapsulated Harpoon certification training vehicles, containers, spare and repair parts, support and test equipment, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical data, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $200 million.


The Government of Brazil has requested a possible sale of 16 AGM-84L Harpoon Block II Missiles, 4 CATM-84L Harpoon Block II Captive Air Training Missiles, containers, spare and repair parts, support and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor representatives’ technical assistance, engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $169 million.


The Government of Korea has requested a possible sale of 18 UGM-84L HARPOON Block II All-Up-Round Missiles, 1 UGM-84L HARPOON telemetry exercise section, containers, Guidance Control Units (GCU) spares, recertification and reconfiguration support, spare and repair parts, tools and tool sets, support equipment, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical data, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $84 million
Last edited by brar_w on 08 Jul 2014 02:33, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby John » 08 Jul 2014 02:09

SLAM-ER can't fit in tubes and requires image of the target not really ideal for submarines. Plus the quoted range is when its air launched.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prem Kumar » 08 Jul 2014 02:18

Good point regarding U-209s. But we also purchased a bunch of Harpoons for P8I, which could have been SLAM-ERs instead

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby PratikDas » 08 Jul 2014 12:33

HT: BrahMos test-fired successfully from Odisha coast
Priya Ranjan Sahu, Hindustan Times Bhubaneshwar, July 08, 2014

India on Tuesday successfully test-fired the supersonic cruise missile BrahMos from a defence base in Odisha's Balasore district.

The missile, which can carry conventional warhead of 300 kg up to a range of 290 km, was fired from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) in Chandipur, about 230 km east of state capital Bhubaneswar.

"The test of the land version of BrahMos, done with a totally indigenous air frame, is successful," ITR director MVKV Prasad said.

BrahMos, one of the fastest cruise missiles in the world, has a top speed of Mach 2.8 and can be launched from ships, aircraft and submarines.

The Indian Army and Navy have already deployed the ground and sea versions of the missile after successful launches.


Tarmak007: BrahMos hits hidden land targets
The BrahMos supersonic cruise missile was successfully flight-tested on 8th July 2014 from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) Chandipur in Balasore, Odisha. During the launch at 1038 hrs, the missile flew through the designated 290 kms distance at Mach 2.8 and achieved high precision with steep dive once again.

BrahMos Aerospace confirmed that it was a text book launch achieving 100% results, executed with high precision from the Mobile Autonomous Launcher (MAL) prepared by the BrahMos 3rd regiment of Indian Army team.

In a historical first, the advanced guidance system integrating multiple navigation satellites powered with new software algorithm, developed indigenously by Indian scientists and industries resulted in pinpoint accuracy of the missile system against hidden land targets.

This was the 44th launch of BrahMos which was carried out with high level of reliability. About 205 Indian industries have come in a big way by significantly contributing their knowhow and expertise in realising the BrahMos weapon system.

Indigenous airframe produced by L&T and Godrej, guidance system by HAL, OBC, MIU by Ananth Technologies Ltd., Electronics industries, software development and guidance scheme by DRDO/RCI have been proved in the flight increasing the content from Indian industries.

This development flight trial of BrahMos, making world record, has proved three key aspects for the success of the mission:
  1. Achieving high level of accuracy with multiple navigation satellites integrated with advanced software, without homing device, thus enabling pinpoint accuracy and further enhancing the precision capability against hidden land targets including mountainous regions.
  2. Accomplishing the supersonic steep dive capability against difficult land targets.
  3. Realisation of airframe, both composite & metallic, built by the Indian industries which were tested and evaluated and altogether provided substantial increase of Indian produced content in the missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 08 Jul 2014 13:30

PratikDas wrote:HT: BrahMos test-fired successfully from Odisha coast
BrahMos Aerospace confirmed that it was a text book launch achieving 100% results, executed with high precision from the Mobile Autonomous Launcher (MAL) prepared by the BrahMos 3rd regiment of Indian Army team.

In a historical first, the advanced guidance system integrating multiple navigation satellites powered with new software algorithm, developed indigenously by Indian scientists and industries resulted in pinpoint accuracy of the missile system against hidden land targets.

. . . Indigenous airframe produced by L&T and Godrej
  1. [b]Achieving high level of accuracy with multiple navigation satellites integrated with advanced software, [b]without homing device, thus enabling pinpoint accuracy and further enhancing the precision capability against hidden land targets including mountainous regions.[/b]

So, this is a Block III missile. This is confirmed by the 'steep dive' meant for mountain warfare and the involvement of the 3rd regiment (based in Arunachal Pradesh) conducting the test. Two other points to note are that an upgraded s/w algorithm was used that combined inputs from multiple satellite systems. I assume that apart from Glonass, the IRNSS signals were possibly used too though there are only two IRNSS satellites up there yet. No seeker was deployed. The second point is that the new s/w upgrade was tested directly by the Army's BrahMos regiment.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 08 Jul 2014 16:05

Looks like preselected targets were hit very accurately using Multiple Satellite Navigation and updated software but without seeker and using steep dive trajectory.

Should mean significant cost saving for Brahmos Blk 3 minus the seeker but similar accuracy. Most likely IRNSS and Glonass Mil grade navigation signal

From what I read the seeker of missile and its associated electronics cost around ~ 60 % of missile cost.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 08 Jul 2014 16:11

What it means is seeker is there, but in case the target is hidden and only its coordinates known, the missile can hit it based on coordinates alone. I wish they had not revealed it was using sat guidance. Why give out more details than necessary?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sudhan » 08 Jul 2014 17:05

^+1

This new upgrade details should have been left under wraps.

Good news on the increase in Indian content though..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby tushar_m » 08 Jul 2014 17:20

On 8th July 2014 India & UK signed a deal to procure 384 ASRAAM from MBDA to replace the Ageing Matra Magic R550 ..Specially for Jaguar Strike Aircraft

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby tushar_m » 08 Jul 2014 17:21

Source : http://www.livemint.com/Politics/xHoQvH ... llion.html

the number of missiles procured are taken from wiki dada

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby dinesha » 08 Jul 2014 17:51

Nuclear triad weapons ready for deployment: DRDO
http://www.ptinews.com/news/4893779_Nuc ... -DRDO.html
New Delhi, Jul 7 (PTI) The weapons systems for the country's nuclear triad, including submarine-launched ballistic missiles, are "fully ready" for deployment, DRDO chief Avinash Chander said today.

Addressing a gathering at an IDSA event, he said the nuclear reactor on board the indigenously-developed INS Arihant nuclear submarine is also critical and is running on its "full power" before it is launched for sea trials.


http://www.livemint.com/Politics/lvVxsu ... ource=copy
New Delhi: The weapons systems for the country’s nuclear triad, including submarine-launched ballistic missiles, are “fully ready” for deployment, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) chief Avinash Chander said on Monday.

Addressing a gathering at an event, he said the nuclear reactor on board the indigenously-developed INS Arihant nuclear submarine is also critical and is running on its “full power” before it is launched for sea trials.

The weapons for the nuclear triad are “either fully developed or are ready to be deployed,” Chander said. The nuclear triad is the capability to launch a nuclear weapon from sea, air and land. India will complete it once the Arihant is operational giving it the option to retaliate to nuclear strike through submarine-launched BO-5 missiles. The Arihant is expected to be launched for sea trials in next few months.

The Agni series missiles can be used to carry out attacks from land while some of the Indian Air Force airrcraft are also capable of launching nuclear attacks. The DRDO completed the development of the over 700km-range BO-5 missiles recently and they would be fired from the Arihant during its sea trials. The organization is also preparing to develop the longer-range K-4 underwater missile in near future and some of its trials have been completed successfully.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby deejay » 08 Jul 2014 17:56

^^^^ Quoting from the report

Details of a rupee-denominated export finance scheme will be announced during the visit to Delhi on Tuesday, said Osborne.


What does this mean. We pay in Rupees or is it another deal?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 08 Jul 2014 19:52

Karan M wrote:What it means is seeker is there, but in case the target is hidden and only its coordinates known, the missile can hit it based on coordinates alone. I wish they had not revealed it was using sat guidance. Why give out more details than necessary?


It could well be a system with seeker just based on external guidance and modified software guidance , which btw how most long range cruise missile works , considering the distance of 300 km and speed consequently time , it really does not need even a seeker.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prem Kumar » 08 Jul 2014 22:11

I read something interesting yesterday. South Korea developed a long range cruise missile & there was a mention of MTCR. There seems to be a loophole: the MTCR range limitation of 300 KM applies only to missiles with payload of 500 KG or more. So, technically a Brahmos with a 300 KG payload can have any range (which is what the South Korean missile does):

Read FAQ questions 7 & 13 in this page: http://www.mtcr.info/english/FAQ-E.html

Regarding Category II items, the way I read it, since Brahmos is not WMD capable, it does not fall under Category II

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby John » 08 Jul 2014 23:24

I am not sure when it says payload if it is just warhead or also leftover fuel. AshM typically have certain percent fuel left for terminal maneuvering and to maximize damage (Sheffield was sunk because of left over fuel in exocet caused fires not the warhead itself).

As for SLAM ER yea it would work from P-8s but was it ever on the table? US was adamant about not supplying any land attack weapons and made sure harpoon cannot be modified by Pakistan for such role i bet the same is true for us as well.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Viv S » 09 Jul 2014 07:18

tushar_m wrote:On 8th July 2014 India & UK signed a deal to procure 384 ASRAAM from MBDA to replace the Ageing Matra Magic R550 ..Specially for Jaguar Strike Aircraft


£250 million for the lot according to Jane's. That's about $1.1 million per unit. Not bad for an MBDA product.
Last edited by Viv S on 09 Jul 2014 08:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 09 Jul 2014 07:23

wiki claims SLAM-ER has been supplied to south korea, turkey, UAE and KSA. but ofcourse none of these can start a war without US signoff.

TSP claims to have modified the harpoon into a land attack weapon.....but I dont see how they could modify the sensor pkg without voiding the warranty and OEM service.
probably the harpoon/uran will home in on coastal targets based on RCS .

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 09 Jul 2014 09:49

I wonder if in the future ASRAAM would be a sort of standard WVR missile for entire IAF fleet.
The fact that ASRAAM beat out Python-5 is also very interesting.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 09 Jul 2014 09:51

remember overhead launch

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prem Kumar » 09 Jul 2014 10:12

Dont know if SLAM-ER was offered but we should have asked at least. The P8I, C130 deals were huge. We could have used the money clout

Regarding MTCR, I think it only refers to the warhead weight. What was interesting for me was the fact that the 300 KM limit had this major exception

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Viv S » 09 Jul 2014 10:14

John wrote:As for SLAM ER yea it would work from P-8s but was it ever on the table?


Actually a better question is why would want it. The P-8I wasn't inducted to be an LACM carrier and we have plenty of other options for that.

US was adamant about not supplying any land attack weapons and made sure harpoon cannot be modified by Pakistan for such role i bet the same is true for us as well.


Do you have a source for that? Because the JSOW for one has been available to India.

Raytheon Company completed a series of free-flight demonstrations of the Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW) AGM-154-C from an F-16IN fighter aircraft. The tests were part of the Indian Air Force's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition. (Raytheon)


Also, the modification of the Harpoon would be against the EUMA so that would invariably be opposed.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prem Kumar » 09 Jul 2014 10:20

SLAM-ER not just for land targets (though that's a nice benefit) but because it can be used against sea targets, has longer range, more accurate & per Wiki-chacha costs the same as Harpoon

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Viv S » 09 Jul 2014 10:29

Prem Kumar wrote:SLAM-ER not just for land targets (though that's a nice benefit) but because it can be used against sea targets, has longer range, more accurate & per Wiki-chacha costs the same as Harpoon


Standoff Land Attack Missile, its based on the Harpoon. It can be used against naval targets, but then you basically arrive back at the Harpoon. As for being cheaper, remains to be seen.


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