Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Yagnasri
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Yagnasri » 06 Jan 2015 09:38

Sir, Tech development is not something like accounts or data entry. True that people involved will be optimistic in setting the deadlines. But all things considaring DRDO did very well in many areas.

We also have to understand as a nation we have to be more realistic also. If it was told to us that LCA development etc will take 20 years, will we support it? I am not saying that the people involved delibarately lied, but saying that they have to be optimistic in their aims when we are not realistic. We do not fund, we do not release the funds timely and sufficiently after agreeing, we create all kinds of restrictions to justify babudoom relavence. In this situation what else we can expect. Delays.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 06 Jan 2015 12:35

Vipul Dave wrote:So far as I know, No fund was sought for Akash MK2 since MK1 had a huge order and sufficient fund was available for development of MK2.


And what does anyone know of the exact specifics of the Mk2 to know how much will be required?

I also Loud DRDO's achievements in Missile technology but every time missing dead line invariably for multiple time is not good. These dead lines were not imposed on them by anybody else but decided by temselves.


If there is no formal requirement of Mk2 or other programs are higher priority, then how do you know Akash Mk2 needs to be prioritized? Timelines can change because priorities can also change.

I think Prahar is already developped.


No.

Kindly enlight us more about QRSAM if possible. Not much information is available in open source except that it is under development.


Thakur has details

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 06 Jan 2015 16:03

Indranil Roy wrote:Thakur sahab,

I don't know anything about the Indian QRSAM (other than Maitri). Please educate.


Lets go with a few assumptions.
DRDO will leverage tech it already has or has access to. Many of the building blocks are already available since QRSAM prototype is stated to have been developed (some recent report?)

So what would they use?
- Missile: Astra variant; Launcher - AAD style swivel and tilt launcher but with an EO/TI FCS as well (shown above). I would wager multiple ones, each per launcher for redundancy OR one w/ battery radar for cost reasons
Vehicle (IA/IAF) - truck probably Tatra for IA; Navy - ship based

- Radar: MMSR -Aslesha variant which I/Thakur posted about earlier; called the MFCR (not the BMD one but a smaller aperture rotating AESA)

- C3I: Akash's leveraged (if it can be used for Brahmos, it can be used for QRSAM as well). So basically a TCC (Group Control Center, directing aforesaid radars+missile combos which will be linked to respective Battery Control Centers).

Earlier, Akash successfully took out a low flying target over the sea, proving the fact the last issue which plagued Trishul (multipath reflection) was resolved. I think that plus Astra trials success has a lot to do with India choosing to go the QRSAM path alone.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 06 Jan 2015 16:57

Akash will easily fulfill the (stop gap?) role of QRSAM also. The long range role SAM will offcourse be taken over by LRSAM and AAD. The traditional QRSAMs (10km max range) are now considered too shortranged due to change in profile of attacking aircrafts. Hence, I think after Manpads, the next level will have to be Akash (as LRSAM is 4-6 times more costly).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Vipul » 06 Jan 2015 17:02

The workhorse who developed India's missiles to propel economy!

V K Saraswat, who has been appointed a full-time member of the NITI Aayog, has been one of the most high profile and successful Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) chiefs in recent times.

From the time he joined the DRDO in 1972, he has been associated with almost unbroken success in his field of specialisation, missile propulsion.

As a member of APJ Abdul Kalam's hand-picked team that worked on the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme, Saraswat played a key role in developing a series of missiles at a time when India faced tight international technology sanctions. He was closely involved in developing the Prithvi ballistic missile; and each of the five Agni missiles that now form the backbone of India's land-based nuclear deterrent.

While Saraswat worked on propulsion systems, his contemporary and successor as DRDO chairman, Avinash Chander, fashioned their guidance systems. They remain closely associated, suggesting DRDO might have a useful ambassador in the NITI Aayog.

Saraswat was also instrumental in modifying existing DRDO missiles into a controversial, but apparently effective, anti-ballistic missile (ABM) system that seeks to defend Indian cities by shooting down incoming nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles. Saraswat's frequent public statements on the ABM system have been criticised for destabilising deterrence in South Asia.

Within the DRDO, Saraswat remains a hard-driving legend known for apparently endless reserves of energy. This, perhaps, has also led him into controversy, with the Madras High Court awarding him a three-week jail term for contempt of court in September. Saraswat had refused to implement a court order to appoint someone to a DRDO post.

Saraswat, who hails from Uttar Pradesh, obtained his MTech from Indian Institute of Science, Bengaluru, and PhD from Osmania University. He was awarded a Padma Shri in 1998 and Padma Bhushan in 2013. He retired from DRDO on May 31, 2013

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Rahul M » 06 Jan 2015 19:12

>> Vipul Dave wrote:
>> So far as I know, No fund was sought for Akash MK2 since MK1 had a huge order and sufficient fund was available for
>> development of MK2.

interesting logic.

so DRDO, the developer of Mk2 did not ask for funds since Mk1 had a huge order ? notwithstanding the fact that production is done by DPSU's like BDL and the consequent fund inflow happens into their coffers ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srin » 06 Jan 2015 19:48

Gyan wrote:Akash will easily fulfill the (stop gap?) role of QRSAM also. The long range role SAM will offcourse be taken over by LRSAM and AAD. The traditional QRSAMs (10km max range) are now considered too shortranged due to change in profile of attacking aircrafts. Hence, I think after Manpads, the next level will have to be Akash (as LRSAM is 4-6 times more costly).


I'd expect the Army to require something smaller - like the missiles on Tunguska - in addition to Akash. Which is why the news related to this "Sosna" makes sense - but I'm just surprised that this has been kept under wraps.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prem Kumar » 07 Jan 2015 02:23

Karan: Are any of these Stabilized Electro Optical Sights installed on our Coast Guard ships (like the one involved in the TerrorBoat incident)? Looks like the CG filmed a lot of footage - curious what system they used?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 07 Jan 2015 03:40

EOFCS - could be on CG ships.
http://drdo.res.in:8080/alpha/drdo/pub/ ... sep_07.pdf
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfoc ... /jun08.pdf
Follow on variant is the EON51
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2009/07/ ... -fire.html

http://defencesecurityindia.com/indian- ... -rajkamal/
Indian Coast Guard Ship ‘ICGS-Rajkamal’, the fourth in the series of eight Inshore Patrol Vessels (IPVs) designed and built by M/s Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata, was commissioned at Chennai by the Minister of State for Defence Shri Jitendra Singh today.

The 50 meter indigenous IPV displaces 300 tonnes and can achieve a maximum speed of 34 knots, with an endurance of 1500 nautical miles at an economical speed of 16 knots. Equipped with state-of-the-art weaponry and advanced communication and navigational equipment, it makes an ideal platform for undertaking multifarious close-coast missions such as surveillance, interdiction, Search and Rescue, and medical evacuation. The special features of the ship include an Integrated Bridge Management System (IBMS), Integrated Machinery Control System (IMCS) and an integrated gun mount with indigenous Fire Control system (FCS).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Avarachan » 07 Jan 2015 04:25

Another reason the Indian Navy isn't completely relying on the LRSAM is because India doesn't entirely trust Israel. With the QRSAM, Indian ships will have another line of defense (albeit one of short range).

Similarly, that's why India is investing in the Dornier's (and their associated equipment): India doesn't want to rely totally on foreign countries for its own maritime surveillance.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 07 Jan 2015 07:27

I think its about time Akash was folded into a VL launch system. even much smaller spyder and mica use vl. the current 'exposed' model is vulnerable to accidental damage.

p.s. and salvo fire would look uber-cool on youtube like the s300 videos. klink-klink baam, klink-klink baam....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YGaq8QW0x4

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 07 Jan 2015 09:04

It is a week into the New Year. There are still some pending missile tests, apart from Agni V. Hope they will be completed soon.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28932 » 07 Jan 2015 16:11

Rahul M wrote:>> Vipul Dave wrote:
>> So far as I know, No fund was sought for Akash MK2 since MK1 had a huge order and sufficient fund was available for
>> development of MK2.

interesting logic.

so DRDO, the developer of Mk2 did not ask for funds since Mk1 had a huge order ? notwithstanding the fact that production is done by DPSU's like BDL and the consequent fund inflow happens into their coffers ?



You need to dig some old article if you are so interested in evaluating authenticity of my claim.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gagan » 07 Jan 2015 16:46

Desh is already throwing a sop Ombaba's way by announcing that A5 cannister test is being postponed for 'non technical' reasons.
Hope someone rubs it in too, that we delayed our own security for these unspecified non technical reasons

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 07 Jan 2015 17:42

Vipul Dave wrote:
Rahul M wrote:>> Vipul Dave wrote:
>> So far as I know, No fund was sought for Akash MK2 since MK1 had a huge order and sufficient fund was available for
>> development of MK2.

interesting logic.

so DRDO, the developer of Mk2 did not ask for funds since Mk1 had a huge order ? notwithstanding the fact that production is done by DPSU's like BDL and the consequent fund inflow happens into their coffers ?



You need to dig some old article if you are so interested in evaluating authenticity of my claim.


Those articles and claims no longer hold ground because at that time DRDO was considering a relatively basic upgrade of Akash. Then we heard a semiactive seeker was possible. Now there are reports of even an active seeker. In short, there is no guarantee that Akash Mk2 will be a minor improvement. A significant upgrade as in recent reports will require significant funds above and beyond those available after development of Mk1.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sagar G » 07 Jan 2015 19:19

Vipul Dave wrote:You need to dig some old article if you are so interested in evaluating authenticity of my claim.


That's why it is necessary to update regarding defence programs, goalposts keep moving and priorities change from time to time. Akashk mk.2 specs haven't been confirmed and till it isn't confirmed DRDO isn't going to take up a program for that.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28932 » 08 Jan 2015 14:11

Karan M wrote:Those articles and claims no longer hold ground because at that time DRDO was considering a relatively basic upgrade of Akash. Then we heard a semiactive seeker was possible. Now there are reports of even an active seeker. In short, there is no guarantee that Akash Mk2 will be a minor improvement. A significant upgrade as in recent reports will require significant funds above and beyond those available after development of Mk1.



Ok,

If you are unable to decide what sort of Missile do you want to develop for 4 years than how can you be a competitive organization?

I would have liked MK2 to be in production by now and we would have been thinking of MK3 by now. 4 valuable years totally wasted. This is the reason i argue to make them responsible by Government and other stake holders like navy does.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 08 Jan 2015 14:15

Philip wrote:Gyan you've explained a lot in your post,why no naval variant of Akash has been planned,unlike many other nations where naval variants of SAMs proliferate aboard their ships. The DM must take a long hard look at this.The LR-SAM project with the Israelis never faced any competition and is 4 years behind schedule,ostensibly according to one report because DRDO failed to deliver the propellant/rocket motor. With the success of Akash,a longer ranged version must be developed.


Philip, I do not have any clear answer to your question, sorry!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 08 Jan 2015 19:10

Philip, Propellant/rocket motor is part science and part black magic. Its complex everywhere.
The reason is the thrust vs time curve has to suit the vehicle characteristics.
A SAM motor has to have a quick ignition time and then a slow burn for the long range.
So competing requirements.
More than this need to sh#!! you!!!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sagar G » 08 Jan 2015 19:26

Vipul Dave wrote:Ok,

If you are unable to decide what sort of Missile do you want to develop for 4 years than how can you be a competitive organization?


What trash is this hain ??? DRDO doesn't decide what is to be built and inducted it's the part of the armed forces to tell DRDO what it wants based on which they take development programs. They do take development programs without armed forces approval but those are only Technology Demonstration (TD) or Science and Technology (S&T) projects. Akash Mk.2 isn't going to be a TD/S&T project but a Mission Mode (MM) one i.e. the project will focus on making an induction worthy system.

Get your basics right before pontificating.

Vipul Dave wrote:I would have liked MK2 to be in production by now and we would have been thinking of MK3 by now. 4 valuable years totally wasted. This is the reason i argue to make them responsible by Government and other stake holders like navy does.


The fact here is that nobody gives a shit about what you or I or anybody else on this board wants but what the armed forces want, so please no more "I want this or that".

Has there been any QR given out by any of the forces for a Mk.2 version ??? No !!!

Yes DRDO is answerable, if not then why do you think CAG gets to take a bloody audit ???

No DRDO isn't answerable to Navy neither navy can force themselves on them only MoD can do that to all the organizations working under it. Navy has more to show in terms of indigenization because they have that attitude and they stick around longer till they have an induction worthy system.

So again get your basics right instead of demanding like some teen.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 09 Jan 2015 19:43

The ARDE tender for assembly of capacitor bank indicates that they are gearing up to test their railgun prototype.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 09 Jan 2015 21:26

Railgun ??

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shaun » 09 Jan 2015 22:59

yes gun on rails !!! a.k.a pic below :lol:

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 09 Jan 2015 23:06

jamwal wrote:Railgun ??


Yessir. The electromagnetic type, probably a tech demonstrator program only. There have been a few tenders in the recent months related to it.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby deejay » 10 Jan 2015 10:44

Shaun wrote:yes gun on rails !!! a.k.a pic below :lol:

Image


:rotfl: Brilliant.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby uddu » 10 Jan 2015 10:54

Thakur_B wrote:
jamwal wrote:Railgun ??


Yessir. The electromagnetic type, probably a tech demonstrator program only. There have been a few tenders in the recent months related to it.

cool

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 10 Jan 2015 12:28

I have a little idea about the ralgun (not the photo posted above). :mrgreen:
Some details will be welcome though.

I could only find this PDF which suggests that a prototype was tested in 1993 with limited success.
http://publications.drdo.gov.in/ojs/ind ... /4179/2439
Last edited by jamwal on 10 Jan 2015 14:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Yagnasri » 10 Jan 2015 13:14

US is testing one for a long long range - some 200km i guess. May be we build few and fire S&&t out of pakis.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28932 » 10 Jan 2015 15:34

Sagar G wrote:

What trash is this hain ??? DRDO doesn't decide what is to be built and inducted it's the part of the armed forces to tell DRDO what it wants based on which they take development programs. They do take development programs without armed forces approval but those are only Technology Demonstration (TD) or Science and Technology (S&T) projects. Akash Mk.2 isn't going to be a TD/S&T project but a Mission Mode (MM) one i.e. the project will focus on making an induction worthy system.

Get your basics right before pontificating.



The fact here is that nobody gives a shit about what you or I or anybody else on this board wants but what the armed forces want, so please no more "I want this or that".

Has there been any QR given out by any of the forces for a Mk.2 version ??? No !!!

Yes DRDO is answerable, if not then why do you think CAG gets to take a bloody audit ???

No DRDO isn't answerable to Navy neither navy can force themselves on them only MoD can do that to all the organizations working under it. Navy has more to show in terms of indigenization because they have that attitude and they stick around longer till they have an induction worthy system.

So again get your basics right instead of demanding like some teen.


These are not my claims nor my wish but it is something DRDO had openly announced in Public. When they announced that the had begun the work on MK2, had the project started without the approval or requirement of Armed Forces?

Now if the MK2 project in its original form is dropped, is not that a waste of Valuable resources and time? You need to take decisions quickly if you want to do progress rapidly. This is wasting of time and lethargic approach shall have a negative impact on cost and time over run.

So far as navy is concern, read some one year old news when navy chief had criticized the delay in Tejas Program and subsequently program was put on fast track.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shaun » 10 Jan 2015 15:59

jamwal ji thanks for that drdo article, so firing projectile using electro-magnetic propulsion is no new to India. considering thakurji's post one can only imagine now, things will get bigger and better. capacitor bank in the article reminds me of the improvised capacitor bank I had to make for 132kv s/w yard line stabilisation test.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28932 » 10 Jan 2015 16:11

jamwal wrote:I have a little idea about the ralgun (not the photo posted above). :mrgreen:
Some details will be welcome though.

I could only find this PDF which suggests that a prototype was tested in 1993 with limited success.
http://publications.drdo.gov.in/ojs/ind ... /4179/2439



This is Awesome. I read about Indian Rail gun project before a long time. I read something today after that. This is a 1994 paper. We can expect much more progress being done after that. Does anybody any idea about Indian rail gun project and development in recent time?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gagan » 10 Jan 2015 18:02

Err whatever happened to Kali ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby abhik » 10 Jan 2015 18:12

Gagan wrote:Err whatever happened to Kali ?

These sort of technologies would sustained funding over long periods of time, which I doubt really happened.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 10 Jan 2015 18:16

Kali was supposed to be an energy weapon.
Only heard rumours about it like we do about Surya.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SaiK » 10 Jan 2015 20:16

we keep hearing in the media about road mobile being hard to track and lock. I'd say the opposite. A well deceiving (camouflaged) ground based silos can be installed at strategic places, whereas the canister based road mobiles are more vulnerable to ever advancing satellite based systems. in a midst of civilian look alike, a silo can be masked under a tent or tin-sheet. it has be only stealthy and strategic. pros and cons are plenty in both types of launching.

http://idrw.org/?p=55761

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 10 Jan 2015 20:23

Looking at the future, you can have some very convincing decoys that are low cost to produce (relative to the loss) and have them autonomously driven around to confuse the tactical picture. If one were so inclined one can overwhelm the enemies response by simply saturating the number of targets required to be killed to achieve the desired "sanitation" affect. With more fixed assets, you do have the limitations of having your enemies entire intelligence focusing on monitoring those targets and prepping to destroy them when required. It is much easier to plan an attack on known targets and the weapons cost to defend those is also likely to be higher. Having said that, both have their use so you can't do away one for another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7g0mc4olJU

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SaiK » 10 Jan 2015 20:26

I say, we need both types. Of course a system ready for mobile should be easily and cheaply available for fixed strategies. There are ton of deterrence in both approaches.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 10 Jan 2015 21:58

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0fSPVzCYAALNPb.jpg
indranilroy wrote:It could be. Dr. Saraswat did say that they are doing away with the separate nozzles for the booster and sustainer. They are going to have a blast tube for the booster, which would mean that plume would come out from the back.


Looks like I was right. DRDO e-book, Page 90.

Propulsion systems have been realised, successfully re-designed and tested for HELINA. Flight trials with the reconfigured missile system was conducted which proved the redesigned propulsion, aerodynamic and control performances. The repeat control performance and LOBL guided performance at 7 km have been established proving the 7 km LOBL capability of the missile.


Image of new NAG/HELINA shown on Page 92.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby PratikDas » 11 Jan 2015 00:05

indranilroy wrote:Looks like I was right. DRDO e-book, Page 90.


This is great information:

RLG of 0.01°/h class have been produced and flight-tested in Agni 5 and Agni 4 missions successfully meeting all mission requirements. RLG of 0.006°/h class have been produced, integrated, and tested to meet the ship navigation requirements. RLG of 0.0006°/hr class have also been produced and under testing at unit level for submarine applications.


Order of magnitude improvement for submarine applications.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby pankajs » 11 Jan 2015 00:11

LOBL @7 km has been established ...


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