China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby karan_mc » 07 Nov 2014 19:34

Victor wrote:That 'thing' is almost twice the size of Brahmos. Does it look like it can fit in the belly of a Su-30?


This might give us some idea , it looks pretty similar in length .

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby member_28756 » 07 Nov 2014 19:54

Jaeger wrote:Manny K I read on some forum that this is the rejected competitor to the YJ-12. Apparently this one lost out because of its terrible CEP. However, it's also compatible with the M-20 SRBM TEL, so its part of the export package. What else can you tell us about this? Thanks.

It looks like they choose YJ-12 over that thing. I wish I could tell you more and not sure about compatibility on the SRBM. I am just concerned the Pakis will get their hands on it and what if Natasha sells other stuff like PAK-FA to the lizard.

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 08 Nov 2014 19:58

karan_mc wrote:
Victor wrote:That 'thing' is almost twice the size of Brahmos. Does it look like it can fit in the belly of a Su-30?


This might give us some idea , it looks pretty similar in length .

Image



It the placement of the fins are exactly the same as Brahmos/Yakhont. I have no doubt that Natasha and Boris have sold to the lizard. To hell with them.

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 08 Nov 2014 20:04

MANNY K wrote:
Image

Image





The J-31? I haven't followed fighters in a decade since they came out with the J-10 but do they actually have J-11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30?

Or were they all vaporware?

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby member_28756 » 09 Nov 2014 12:12

chola wrote:
This might give us some idea , it looks pretty similar in length .

Image


It the placement of the fins are exactly the same as Brahmos/Yakhont. I have no doubt that Natasha and Boris have sold to the lizard. To hell with them.

I cant say I am surprised. Natasha and Lizard have been getting closer together ever since the Ukraine crisis look at this new gas deal that will double their previous oil agreement. No wonder Boris or should I say Vladimir can't say no with all that money floating around.

Putin: Russia, China close to reaching 2nd mega gas deal
Published time: November 07, 2014 10:48

http://rt.com/business/203087-putin-china-gas-deal/


Russian President Vladimir Putin (RIA Novosti / Alexey Druzhinin)

Tags
Big deal, China, Gas, Russia and the global economy

Moscow and Beijing have agreed many of the aspects of a second gas pipeline to China, the so-called western route. It’s in additional to the eastern route which has already broken ground after a $400 billion deal was clinched in May.


In May, China and Russia signed a $400 billion deal to construct the Power of Siberia pipeline, which will annually deliver 38 billion cubic meters (bcm) of gas to China. The Power of Siberia, the eastern route, will connect Russia’s Kovykta and Chaynda fields with China, where recoverable resources are estimated at about 3 trillion cubic meters.

The opening of the western route, the Altai, would link Western China and Russia and supply an additional 30 bcm of gas, nearly doubling the gas deal reached in May.

When the Altai route is complete China will become Russia’s biggest gas customer. The ability to supply China with 68 bcm of gas annually surpasses the 40 bcm it supplies Germany each year

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby member_23061 » 09 Nov 2014 12:38

The internet says it is a Iskander clone ......... doesn't seem like one. Also, where is the thrust cap on the nose to direct it after the vertical launch?

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby member_28756 » 09 Nov 2014 12:42

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... t-matters/

China unveils a new anti-drone laser, but it’s the growing Chinese drone fleet that matters


By Ishaan Tharoor November 6 at 12:18 PM 


A 2011 picture from a Chinese air show of a model of a Chinese "Pterodactyl" drone. (William Wan/The Washington Post)

A report in China's state media earlier this week revealed that China had successfully tested a new "home-made laser defense system" capable of shooting down drones. Xinhua news agency cited the progress made by one of the country's leading scientific academies:


The machine is able to shoot down various small aircraft within a two-kilometer radius and can do so in five seconds after locating its target, said a statement released Sunday by the China Academy of Engineering Physics, one of the system's co-developers.

Characterized by its speed, precision and low noise, the system is designed to destroy unmanned, small-scale drones flying within an altitude of 500-m and at a speed below 50m/s, it said.

The system will be probably transported or deployed on vehicles, an ideal scenario for policing the skies above cities and sensitive government or military installations. According to Xinhua, it had a 100 percent success rate in its trials, targeting and bringing down more than 30 test drones.

The increasing proliferation of various sorts of unmanned aerial vehicles means governments around the world are getting more and more worried about their use for purposes of espionage and covert surveillance. The U.S., with the aid of Boeing, is also testing a laser cannon that can "blast drones out of the sky."


The development of this technology comes amid growing attention on the scale and capabilities of China's drone program. There's not much clear data about the size of the Chinese drone fleet, but most analysts believe that Beijing's military boasts the largest number of unmanned aerial vehicles behind that of the United States.

In 2011, around the time most observers switched on to China's developing drone industry, my colleague William Wan attended a high-profile aviation show where a number of Chinese-made drones were on display, including models of the "Wing-Loong," believed to an adaptation of the American Reaper drone, and "Pterodactyl," an equivalent to the American Predator drone.

"The Chinese are catching up quickly. This is something we know for sure,” an American defense analyst told The Washington Post at the time, referring to modest statements made by Chinese officials about the weakness of their domestic drone programs. “We should not take comfort in some perceived lags in sensors or satellites capabilities. Those are just a matter of time.”

In the intervening years, China's drone investments have deepened and its ambitions have widened in scope. A 96-page Pentagon report published earlier this year, claimed China's military spending in 2013 far exceeded Beijing's reported figure. It also voiced concerns about Beijing's push into drone development. Chinese efforts on this front, the report indicated, "combines unlimited resources with technological awareness that might allow China to match or even outpace U.S. spending on unmanned systems in the future."


Of greatest concern is China's ability to vie with the U.S. and its East Asian allies, where maritime disputes over islands in the South China Sea and the East China Sea are a seemingly permanent source of tension and provocation in the region. China's new capabilities present new challenges to the U.S. Navy, long the guarantor of stability in the Pacific.

Beyond questions of geopolitics, China's advances in drone technologies also mean the chances of dozens of other countries building up their own fleets is more likely, given the relative cheapness of Chinese drone technology compared to the costs of American drones. Governments like Pakistan, for example, are keen to acquire Chinese drones, while other nervous Asian powers like Japan and India also seek to boost their arsenals.

As drone technology proliferates, seemingly unchecked, those anti-drone lasers may become quite useful, after all

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 09 Nov 2014 13:57

If the pic are up to dimension the CX-xx compared to Brahmos appears to have larger diameter an indication it uses a much larger diameter ramjet engine of older SS-N-22 missile and carries more fuel or just that the electronic are bigger and heavier , the control surfaces also appear to be larger may be the ramjet engine lacks the TVC of Brahmos which have tvc based ramjet engine.

The Midwing control surface of CX-xx appears more similar to our Prithvi i.e cropped delta then the Brahmos which is assuming both pic are of same scale. The rear control surface for both missile near engine are also different.

Chinese have technology of Ramjet from SS-N-22 they would have mated that with a more modern design similar to Brahmos using lifting body airframe

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby jamwal » 09 Nov 2014 14:38

Cheeni missile is tilted in picture. This isn't exactly a reliable way to measure lengths anyhow.
It sure looks longer and thicker though.

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby member_28756 » 09 Nov 2014 15:24

Launches and pics of "CX-1 Sino Brahmos"

http://www.china-defense.com/
Last edited by member_28756 on 09 Nov 2014 15:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby member_28756 » 09 Nov 2014 15:26

And One more

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby NRao » 09 Nov 2014 18:06

Why is this even a news item?

Once the Brahmos came into existence, it was a given that everyone and his/her grandfather would copy it.

The question is what has India done so far to go to the next missile in this category.

The glory dances for the Brahmos should have ended some time ago.

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby shiv » 09 Nov 2014 18:43

MANNY K wrote:Launches and pics of "CX-1 Sino Brahmos"

http://www.china-defense.com/

The image below shows that the technique used by the Chinese missile to tilt from vertical to horizontal is not the same as in Brahmos. I have always been totally fascinated by Brahmos launches. Bang! The missile launches and then whump! a rocket charge tilts the missile by 90deg to horizontal - and just when it should be going out of control whump! one more rocket motor exactly arrests the tilt with the missile horizontal. Then bang! the cap on the intake is blown off and the ramjet kicks in.

In the image below the Chinese missile is making a curved climb from vertical to horizontal. And no intake cap at launch as far as I can see
Image

Below is a classic Brahmos launch image with its characteristic abrupt 90 deg turn
Image

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby Liu » 09 Nov 2014 19:15

shiv wrote:
MANNY K wrote:Launches and pics of "CX-1 Sino Brahmos"

http://www.china-defense.com/

The image below shows that the technique used by the Chinese missile to tilt from vertical to horizontal is not the same as in Brahmos. I have always been totally fascinated by Brahmos launches. Bang! The missile launches and then whump! a rocket charge tilts the missile by 90deg to horizontal - and just when it should be going out of control whump! one more rocket motor exactly arrests the tilt with the missile horizontal. Then bang! the cap on the intake is blown off and the ramjet kicks in.

In the image below the Chinese missile is making a curved climb from vertical to horizontal. And no intake cap at launch as far as I can see
Image

Below is a classic Brahmos launch image with its characteristic abrupt 90 deg turn
Image

its concept is completely different from btahmos......it seems to be a inferior export version of YJ12.

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby NRao » 09 Nov 2014 19:28

.it seems to be a inferior export version of YJ12.


Are you implying that the real Chinese version (YJ-12) would make make the 90 degree move?

BTW, at this point in time pretty much everything - from what I can see - is of the exportable variety.

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby Liu » 09 Nov 2014 19:44

NRao wrote:
.it seems to be a inferior export version of YJ12.


Are you implying that the real Chinese version (YJ-12) would make make the 90 degree move?

BTW, at this point in time pretty much everything - from what I can see - is of the exportable variety.

well, YJ12 is reported to have a range of 480KM or more ,and can be carried by JH7...its trajectory is almost as same as CX1......




one JH7 can carry 4 such missles when attacking surface fleets.

a squardon of JH7( 24 JH7) lanuch one Saturation attack on AC group with YJ12, when the squardon is still almost 500KM away from the AC.

that would be a deadly threaten to any AC group....

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby shiv » 09 Nov 2014 19:51

Liu wrote:one JH7 can carry 4 such missles when attacking surface fleets.

a squardon of JH7( 24 JH7) lanuch one Saturation attack on AC group with YJ12, when the squardon is still almost 500KM away from the AC.

that would be a deadly threaten to any AC group....

Wiki quotes JH 7 as capable of carrying 9 tons of armament. That would make each of those missiles 2250 kg. That is 2/3 the weight of Brahmos but 160% more range.

Something does not gel here.

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby Liu » 09 Nov 2014 19:55

well, CHIna now has much more R&D fund than RUssia and India....

in fact, if considering the undervalue of RMB, the real purchase power of China R&D fund may be surpass USA and be NO.1 in the world now,after all even IMF acknowlege that CHina's PPP is surpassing USA this year.

that is why CHina can afford devleoping sooo many new toys at the same time ,including 2 5G aircraft projects, Y20 heavy tranporting-bird and so on so easily ,while Russia is so hard to afford T50 and EU givp up 5 G bird.

anyhow, with CHina's huge economy might and its sustained investment on military R&D in the past decades, it is not strange that more and more new toys roll out in CHina...


after all, the main locked target on CHina's screen is always the sole superpower on the earth, USA....
Last edited by Liu on 09 Nov 2014 20:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby Liu » 09 Nov 2014 19:58

shiv wrote:
Liu wrote:one JH7 can carry 4 such missles when attacking surface fleets.

a squardon of JH7( 24 JH7) lanuch one Saturation attack on AC group with YJ12, when the squardon is still almost 500KM away from the AC.

that would be a deadly threaten to any AC group....

Wiki quotes JH 7 as capable of carrying 9 tons of armament. That would make each of those missiles 2250 kg. That is 2/3 the weight of Brahmos but 160% more range.

Something does not gel here.

well, I checked some resource , it says that JH7 can only carry 2 YJ12 ,and H6 can carry 4 ones

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby Liu » 09 Nov 2014 19:59

shiv wrote:
Liu wrote:one JH7 can carry 4 such missles when attacking surface fleets.

a squardon of JH7( 24 JH7) lanuch one Saturation attack on AC group with YJ12, when the squardon is still almost 500KM away from the AC.

that would be a deadly threaten to any AC group....

Wiki quotes JH 7 as capable of carrying 9 tons of armament. That would make each of those missiles 2250 kg. That is 2/3 the weight of Brahmos but 160% more range.

Something does not gel here.

well, I checked some resource , it says that JH7 can only carry 2 YJ12 ,and H6 can carry 4 ones

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby brar_w » 09 Nov 2014 19:59

shiv wrote:
Liu wrote:one JH7 can carry 4 such missles when attacking surface fleets.

a squardon of JH7( 24 JH7) lanuch one Saturation attack on AC group with YJ12, when the squardon is still almost 500KM away from the AC.

that would be a deadly threaten to any AC group....

Wiki quotes JH 7 as capable of carrying 9 tons of armament. That would make each of those missiles 2250 kg. That is 2/3 the weight of Brahmos but 160% more range.

Something does not gel here.


And the CBG would respond by developing a capability to:

A) Develop a comprehensive ISR and integrated networks to spot these threats much earlier and kill them using all CBG and non CBG resources
B ) Take down launch aircrafts from 300-500 km's away
C) Develop a comprehensive Electronic warfare, spoofing etc net so as to force the launch aircraft to get closer for a kill..
D) Have the capability to take down incoming missiles both @ altitude in cruise profile and in the terminal profile
E) Develop and field Kill options that have near unlimited supply ( *EMRG* *DEW*)

http://www.janes.com/article/40550/us-n ... pts-at-sea

http://defensetech.org/2013/01/18/navy- ... e-defense/



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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby Liu » 09 Nov 2014 20:12

brar_w wrote:
shiv wrote:Wiki quotes JH 7 as capable of carrying 9 tons of armament. That would make each of those missiles 2250 kg. That is 2/3 the weight of Brahmos but 160% more range.

Something does not gel here.


And the CBG would respond by developing a capability to:

A) Develop a comprehensive ISR and integrated networks to spot these threats much earlier and kill them using all CBG and non CBG resources
B ) Take down launch aircrafts from 300-500 km's away
C) Develop a comprehensive Electronic warfare, spoofing etc net so as to force the launch aircraft to get closer for a kill..
D) Have the capability to take down incoming missiles both @ altitude in cruise profile and in the terminal profile
E) Develop and field Kill options that have near unlimited supply ( *EMRG* *DEW*)

http://www.janes.com/article/40550/us-n ... pts-at-sea

http://defensetech.org/2013/01/18/navy- ... e-defense/



well, in real war between CHina and USA, both sides can have lots of weapons and ammunition to destroy targets ,however far away the target is ....so range is never the problem to either USA or CHina...

the key is how to "detect" the target....

so ,a prompt and smart detecting and tracing capacity is the key factor to win the war...

USA is surely ahead of CHina ,as for detecting and tracing capacity. but nowdays, with its might economy ,CHina's investment on detecting&tracing infrastructure seems to be surpassing USA, while CHina's Beidou system and UAV are advancing rapidly but USA's budget on space projects and defence project is being cut down.


..

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby brar_w » 09 Nov 2014 20:58

well, in real war between CHina and USA, both sides can have lots of weapons and ammunition to destroy targets ,however far away the target is ....so range is never the problem to either USA or CHina...


I don't think either side is seeing this through the lens of "what happens during war" but more from, " How can either sides influence in the pacific be altered". For China, its how to be disruptive by pushing the CBG further back, for the USN and particularly the pentagon through the ASBC is how to leverage advances to retain that advantage and build upon it.
An all out war between the US and China is going to be catastrophic and something extremely unlikely. This is more about the "zero sum game" that the dragon sees playing out in the Pacific and the IOR where it sees its rise in influence only at the back of a diminishing power of the USN (particularly) in the region. The USN through the Pacific rebalance and the increased emphasis to its surface through the ASBC would obviously like to maintain its SOI in the region given its economic importance, and to protect its vital economic and military interests in the region. Beyond this, i really do not see this turning out into a cold war like scenario where you have massive troop buildups over disputed territories for example.

[youtube]nLrO1GI8ZIY&index=9&list=WL[/youtube]

the key is how to "detect" the target....


And investments to that end have reflected this as well (hence this is NO. 1 of my list in the previous post). Just look at the sheer amount of money being spent on ISR, and other information systems. P-8, Triton, UCLASS to name a few programs that would directly contribute. At the back end its NIFC_CA that has information at its core. This is before one gets into the Space and cyber integration. On the other hand, China is fast developing its ISR capabilities and preparing to deny an integrated ISR network on the other side. Where other adversaries see this as a worrisome sign (those like India, japan, South Korea, Vietnam etc) is that the Chinese are investing to neutralize the USN and combined USA/USN/USMC/USA presence in the pacific, and that would obviously directly impact the ability of the Chinese to neutralize the navies and joint forces of these nations as well.

but USA's budget on space projects and defence project is being cut down.


Much of those activities would be happening outside of the "white budget" anyhow. Its at what 60-70 Billion now per annum in the black iirc.

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby Liu » 10 Nov 2014 09:27

china shows a new tpye of anti-stealth rador,which sucessfully detected F22 over S.Korea. http://mil.sina.cn/?sa=t134d442278v76&a ... towap&vt=4

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 10 Nov 2014 09:57

Liu wrote:china shows a new tpye of anti-stealth rador,which sucessfully detected F22 over S.Korea. http://mil.sina.cn/?sa=t134d442278v76&a ... towap&vt=4


What band does it operate on ?

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby member_26622 » 10 Nov 2014 10:29

VHF (mentions UHF as well) - google translate the link

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby Kartik » 10 Nov 2014 10:55

looks like the Russkies have sold Yakhont technology to the Chinese, which now has unveiled a Brahmos like ASCM, the CX-1..or else the Chinese have managed to obtain detailed designs of the Yakhont or Brahmos through industrial espionage activities..either way those bloody SOBs will eventuall sell a Brahmos copy/analogue to the Pakis.

Zhuhai surprise- 3rd Russian supersonic ASCM

Already, scores of images of its full-size display mock-up show an uncanny resemblance to another famous supersonic ASCM, the Mach 2.8-3.0 speed Russian-Indian BrahMos. Both share the distinctive cone-inlet air intake, a two-stage structure and similar dimensions.

..
While there is no confirmation that Russia’s NPO Mashinostroyenia sold CALT the technology from its Yakhont supersonic ASCM as it did to India to provide the basis for BrahMos, this should not be surprising. India and Russia have Russian-made NPO Mashinostroyenia 3M-54 Club supersonic terminal-stage ASCMs and Zvezda Kh-31 supersonic anti-radar/ship missiles. But China has also purchased or otherwise acquired the technology to produce its own versions, the larger and longer-range YJ-12, now in Chinese service, is based on Zvezda technology and the YJ-18 is believed to be a shorter range version of the 3M-54. So CALT’s CX-1 is likely China’s third “Russian” supersonic ASCM.


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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 10 Nov 2014 11:59

The Chinese are talented people when it comes to copy cat , even a accurately scaled model is a good enough data for them to copy and if its a real system is presented then then its worth in gold.

Reason why recent expo involving Western and Russian exhibit have not been displaying accurately scaled model of sensitive system or the model has been removed at the last moment from exhibit.

Having said that Brahmos has seen many interation since the first time they were tested in late 90's and what differentiates Brahmos from other supersonic system out there is its brain and it took nearly 15 years for Brahmos to develop many mark model and throughly test it in complex scenarios and still they are now developing Mark 4 model with new capabilities ..which makes its a system no competitor will have it for atleast a decade.

Eventually Brochure or scale model wont really tell us the real capability for the system.

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 10 Nov 2014 12:00

nik wrote:VHF (mentions UHF as well) - google translate the link


I suspect its L band or UHF

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby Viv S » 10 Nov 2014 14:07

Kartik wrote:looks like the Russkies have sold Yakhont technology to the Chinese, which now has unveiled a Brahmos like ASCM, the CX-1..

Yeah pic posted, see top of the page.

or else the Chinese have managed to obtain detailed designs of the Yakhont or Brahmos through industrial espionage activities..either way those bloody SOBs will eventuall sell a Brahmos copy/analogue to the Pakis.

No need for any espionage really.

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby brar_w » 10 Nov 2014 18:37

Liu wrote:china shows a new tpye of anti-stealth rador,which sucessfully detected F22 over S.Korea. http://mil.sina.cn/?sa=t134d442278v76&a ... towap&vt=4


To the best of my knowledge the F-22 does not operate outside of US territory without a Luneburg lens. UHF/VHF radar results can be easily calculated based on radars and ranges as it appears that the F-117 has been busy running against radar test sites at groom lake just recently, most likely to test out some materials and coatings for the LRS-B. We also have to remember that the USAF has a pretty high tech airborne UHF radar to sim against outside of its "black" radar sites ;)..Those days of "stealth" being an unknown commodity are long gone. The USAF, the RuAF and I suspect the Chinese know fairly well what the limitations of their stealth jets are to the threats that the other side fields, and they would simply have to develop work arounds for that. Even if you do not have the codes and exact frequencies, you can add a lot of UHF, VHF, X band, S Band radars to your radar sites and see which design starts becoming vulnerable in what scenarios (coatings, range, emission etc)..and develop your strategy accordingly. Of course, some designs would be more flexible then others hence we saw an early retirement of the F-117, while the B-2 would last for decades still and the F-22 and F-35 are going to last a long long time.

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby NRao » 10 Nov 2014 18:49

The Chinese are talented people when it comes to copy cat


Who is not?

India had her own USA for decades. Pretty much anything written in java can be copied or the key mechanism (needed to activate the application) can be rather easily circumvented. It is economics that drives copying and anyone who wants to come ahead can copy.

The issue in copying is ethics.

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby member_28756 » 10 Nov 2014 19:14

Viv S wrote:
Kartik wrote:looks like the Russkies have sold Yakhont technology to the Chinese, which now has unveiled a Brahmos like ASCM, the CX-1..

Yeah pic posted, see top of the page.

or else the Chinese have managed to obtain detailed designs of the Yakhont or Brahmos through industrial espionage activities..either way those bloody SOBs will eventuall sell a Brahmos copy/analogue to the Pakis.

No need for any espionage really.

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And this....

http://rt.com/business/203679-china-russia-gas-deal/


Putin, Xi Jinping sign mega gas deal on second gas supply route

President Vladimir Putin and Chinese leader Xi Jinping have signed a memorandum of understanding on the so-called “western” gas supplies route to China. The agreement paves the way for a contract that would make China the biggest consumer of Russian gas.

Russia’s so-called “western” or "Altay" route would supply 30 billion cubic meters (bcm) of gas a year to China.

The new supply line comes in addition to the “eastern” route, through the “Power of Siberia” pipeline, which will annually deliver 38 bcm of gas to China. Work on that pipeline route has already begun after a $400 billion deal was clinched in May.

Liu
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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby Liu » 10 Nov 2014 19:45

brar_w wrote:
Liu wrote:china shows a new tpye of anti-stealth rador,which sucessfully detected F22 over S.Korea. http://mil.sina.cn/?sa=t134d442278v76&a ... towap&vt=4


To the best of my knowledge the F-22 does not operate outside of US territory without a Luneburg lens. UHF/VHF radar results can be easily calculated based on radars and ranges as it appears that the F-117 has been busy running against radar test sites at groom lake just recently, most likely to test out some materials and coatings for the LRS-B. We also have to remember that the USAF has a pretty high tech airborne UHF radar to sim against outside of its "black" radar sites ;)..Those days of "stealth" being an unknown commodity are long gone. The USAF, the RuAF and I suspect the Chinese know fairly well what the limitations of their stealth jets are to the threats that the other side fields, and they would simply have to develop work arounds for that. Even if you do not have the codes and exact frequencies, you can add a lot of UHF, VHF, X band, S Band radars to your radar sites and see which design starts becoming vulnerable in what scenarios (coatings, range, emission etc)..and develop your strategy accordingly. Of course, some designs would be more flexible then others hence we saw an early retirement of the F-117, while the B-2 would last for decades still and the F-22 and F-35 are going to last a long long time.

i don't know much about RADOR,but F22 flys over S.Korea from time to time,to warn N.korea

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby NRao » 10 Nov 2014 19:53


member_28756
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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby member_28756 » 10 Nov 2014 20:09

shiv wrote:
Liu wrote:one JH7 can carry 4 such missles when attacking surface fleets.

a squardon of JH7( 24 JH7) lanuch one Saturation attack on AC group with YJ12, when the squardon is still almost 500KM away from the AC.

that would be a deadly threaten to any AC group....

Wiki quotes JH 7 as capable of carrying 9 tons of armament. That would make each of those missiles 2250 kg. That is 2/3 the weight of Brahmos but 160% more range.

Something does not gel here.

JH-7 probably only 2, missiles looks heavy.

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 10 Nov 2014 20:12

NRao wrote:
The Chinese are talented people when it comes to copy cat


Who is not?

India had her own USA for decades. Pretty much anything written in java can be copied or the key mechanism (needed to activate the application) can be rather easily circumvented. It is economics that drives copying and anyone who wants to come ahead can copy.

The issue in copying is ethics.


Copying Software is not the same as copying Aircraft or Engine .. you need advancement in material , aerodynamics ,control laws to name a few else we would have seen clones of advanced equipment in Pakistan.....Most importantly you need industry to back it up without which Stealing or Copying wont be possible.

Its just that stealing or copying will limit the chinese to the pros and cons of those design and limiting their development of their own design but the chinese dont really care much for originality as long as it works for them

Check some of the Western choppers Chinese managed to copy or reverse engineer

black hawk/Z-20 http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... lies-china

SA 321 Super Frelon/Z-8 http://www.airforce-technology.com/proj ... transport/

J-15/Su-33 http://www.defensenews.com/article/2013 ... 15-Fighter

And the secret sauce from VOA is Western Engineering
Chinese Military's Secret to Success: European Engineering

NRao
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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby NRao » 10 Nov 2014 20:32

NRao wrote:Who is not?

India had her own USA for decades. Pretty much anything written in java can be copied or the key mechanism (needed to activate the application) can be rather easily circumvented. It is economics that drives copying and anyone who wants to come ahead can copy.

The issue in copying is ethics.


Copying Software is not the same as copying Aircraft or Engine .. you need advancement in material , aerodynamics ,control laws to name a few else we would have seen clones of advanced equipment in Pakistan.....Most importantly you need industry to back it up without which Stealing or Copying wont be possible.


I know.

Which is why I brought up "USA" in India. There was no software then. It was all hardware they copied.

Its just that stealing or copying will limit the chinese to the pros and cons of those design and limiting their development of their own design but the chinese dont really care much for originality as long as it works for them


Which is the ethics and economics component I posted about.

______________

I gave the Java example because it is so easy to copy it that most people do not because of ethics.

_______________

Then there needs to be a political situation that dictates such massive espionage, funding, etc. The chinese clearly have that, most other nations do not - even if they are unethical and have economic interests.


But, this is why I have always felt that China will collapse when their ability to keep ( :wink: ) up dries up. China will be out done in technologies. Easily.

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby NRao » 10 Nov 2014 20:36

BTW, it is not that Indians did not think along these lines.

The competitor to the "LCA" was a the drastic modification of the MiG-21 - by no less a person than a Prof at IIT-B. Without Soviet permission if I may add.

There have been plenty in India who have wanted to make derivatives of various engines too - on the side.

And, India does have a more thought out R&D. What India did not have was political will and therefore the associated funding needed for such efforts.

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Re: China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

Postby member_28756 » 10 Nov 2014 20:44

However they are already spending a lot on R&D and have made advances in many sectors technologically. Never underestimate the lizard especially now their economy have grown substantially over last two decades which will give them the necessary tools and resources catch up.


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