Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3675
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby sanjaykumar » 05 Jul 2017 23:42

This just in from the China foreign ministry:

Ahmo gonna kick yo' butt.

Ashokk
BRFite
Posts: 326
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Ashokk » 05 Jul 2017 23:56

The :(( by the cheenis seems a bit melodramatic, even by their low standards. They are painting themselves into a corner from which they will need some face-saving action to get out. I hope we are keeping a close watch on all sectors. If there is a attack I would expect it to happen in a different area.

DrRatnadip
BRFite
Posts: 326
Joined: 31 Dec 2016 00:40

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby DrRatnadip » 06 Jul 2017 01:11

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1055088.shtml

China can rethink stance on Sikkim, Bhutan

India has startling control and oppression over Bhutan, and as a result, Bhutan has not established diplomatic ties with its neighbor China or any other permanent member of the UN Security Council. Through unequal treaties, India has severely jeopardized Bhutan's diplomatic sovereignty and controls its national defense.
.
.

Meanwhile, Beijing should reconsider its stance over the Sikkim issue. Although China recognized India's annexation of Sikkim in 2003, it can readjust its stance on the matter.
There are those in Sikkim that cherish its history as a separate state, and they are sensitive to how the outside world views the Sikkim issue. As long as there are voices in Chinese society supporting Sikkim's independence, the voices will spread and fuel pro-independence appeals in Sikkim.

In the past, China was wary of India playing the Dalai Lama card, but this card is already overplayed and will exert no additional effect on the Tibet question. But if Beijing adjusts its stance on India-sensitive issues, it could be a powerful card to deal with New Delhi.

China should change its stand on sikkim and that will be golden chance for us to show middle finger to one china policy..

Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3168
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Rudradev » 06 Jul 2017 01:12

SSridhar wrote:But, we should remember that China has so far been able to successfully manage the repression it has let loose on the Uyghurs in Xinjiang:
  • No beard
  • No Koran in Arabic
  • No fasting
  • No Azan
  • No sermon
  • No Hajj or Umrah
  • No madrasseh
  • No nothing
And, the most violence-prone religion that doesn't take the slightest curbs without resorting to ummah-condemnation has kept totally silent. Nothing from wahhabi KSA, not a murmur from Wahhabi/salafi/Deobandi sweeter-than-honey Pakistani jihadi terror tanzeems or Islamist parties or for that matter any other Islamist country including Turkey.


SS, you are absolutely right of course.

However, I think that just shows how much the "culture of outrage" evoked by Islamists the world over is a cynical and opportunistic one, rather than one based on any sort of genuine "principles" (even the "principles" enunciated in the Quran).

In China the KSA, Iranians, Pakis, Turks etc. know that there is little reward to be had from fomenting Islamist sentiments. Uighurs are a tiny minority living very far away from the Han heartland, and even in their own lands, they are becoming increasingly swamped by a Han majority. Guerilla or terrorist groups of Uighurs are virtually impossible to supply, and would find it exceptionally difficult to hit the Han's economic or political interests where it hurts. The Uighurs are also ethnically differentiated by racial characteristics and language to the extent they can never blend in with a Han population, especially in a nation where society is as rigidly controlled and segregated as the PRC. For all these reasons, there is only so much the Islamist powers can achieve in terms of blackmailing the Chinese state by claiming "Islam khatrey mein hai".

China is more useful to the Islamist powers as a potential "enemy of their enemy" (the West and India, primarily). So no point wasting ummah condemnation on them just yet.

Ummah condemnation, on the other hand, is a useful blackmailing tactic against nations that are vulnerable to terrorist subversion by radical Islamists, because of the very same features that distinguish them from China. In EU nations or India, the percentage of Muslims is much higher; the admixture and dispersion of Muslims within the heartland and majority populations is much greater; physical, financial and cultural access are much easier; and societies are far more liberal with much less state control.

Amoghvarsha
BRFite
Posts: 242
Joined: 18 Aug 2016 12:56

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Amoghvarsha » 06 Jul 2017 02:55

What is H n D?

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1285
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ArjunPandit » 06 Jul 2017 02:57

^^H&D/Echandee: Honor and Dignity.

anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7903
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby anupmisra » 06 Jul 2017 03:40

Chini dhamkis are indirectly targeted at the pakis and others in the region (lankans, BDs, nepalis) - stray off course and you are history. In the end, the chinis will climb down from their extreme positioning, call it a strategic compromise in the greater interest of regional peace and declare victory. Then they will have a parade to celebrate it. Those of us who deal with the mainland chinis on a daily basis know this to be a standard operating procedure. Recall that all the recent bluster has come from their "independent" media.

My 30+ year experience with the mainland chinis is that they are basically inward looking cowards, thriving as keyboard warriors. A lot of noise, no substance. They can never win a long war. They never have.

JMTC.

ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5217
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ShauryaT » 06 Jul 2017 06:01

Eyeballing in Doklam or Free pass to China?

But what’s the legal basis for the loud and cantankerous calls by Beijing to India to withdraw? None, whatsoever. The 1895 Anglo-Chinese Treaty that China keeps harping on has long been superseded by the 1998 and 1999 agreements Thimpu signed with Beijing that requires both sides to respect the status quo pending the delineation of the formal border in the underway bilateral negotiations. If India has intervened on Bhutan’s behalf it is because, notwithstanding a similar understanding in another area, the PLA went ahead and constructed a loop road, and presented Thimpu with a fait accompli the Bhutanese could not overturn. This is precisely what the Bhutanese government doesn’t want to see happen again. Reason why the Indian army is on the Doklam high ground — at the express invitation of Bhutan, which is unable to protect its sovereign territory all by itself. Under international law, this is perfectly permissible — a weak country can call on military help and assistance from a friendly strong country to fend of the actions of a proven regional bully, in this case, China.


General Bipin Rawat visited Sikkim, conferred with the XXXIII Corps senior officers, and especially with the GOCs of the Mountain Divisions on the Chinese forward line in the extended area. One wishes the COAS had said something to the effect that the Indian Army would welcome any opportunity to back defence minister Arun Jaitley’s contention that 1962 was a one-off fiasco. That disaster involved no more than a Division and a half in actual ops and, in hindsight, can be seen as nothing more than a fairly minor affray. Sure, PLA too has improved since then as Beijing reminded India, but the Indian military has enough forces to blunt the PLA group armies aggressing at full tilt. One assumes that, unlike in 1962, the IAF will go into action right off the bat.


One hopes Modi will not back down and equally that he will not prevent the Indian army and IAF from responding in kind and with force should the PLA cross the Rubicon. The only way to react to a bully is to counter-punch him in the face. And India is surely well-placed to do that.

anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7903
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby anupmisra » 06 Jul 2017 06:28

China Warns the World About Getting Too Many Upstart Ideas
Seems like a habit (to issue warnings)! Note the similarities with the Sikkim situation.

China has been doing a lot of warning lately. It's also overly concerned about rights -- its own, not yours
On July 1, Xi warned Hong Kongers not to get too uppity about tiny insignificant things like the right of freedom of speech. Greater China's financial capital is a great little business center, he said, and don't you worry your little heads about how we run things from Beijing.
And whatever you do, don't ever mention anything about wanting to be autonomous or self-determined or an independent state or anything so insidious. That's a final warning.
Hong Kongers feel their rights are disappearing, something Xi appeared to confirm with his warnings.
Xi warned Hong Kongers that "making everything political or deliberately creating differences" will "severely hinder Hong Kong's economic and social development."
he warned that "any attempt to endanger China's sovereignty and security, challenge the power of the central government" or "use Hong Kong to carry out infiltration and sabotage" against China is "an act that crosses the red line and is absolutely impermissible."
China back in 2012 did a bit more warning when it blocked Bloomberg on the mainland, after the company ran a story detailing the multimillions that Xi's family had amassed on his rise to the top.
Sometimes Xi's warning is implicit. Cross a line, and things start happening without warning. That's when you know you're really in trouble.
China now says that Hong Kong's affairs are a "domestic matter," and the Sino-British Joint Declaration that brought the Basic Law into being is "history and of no practical significance."
China did a little more warning last week after the U.S. made the "wrong decision" to sell Taiwan $1.42 billion worth of weapons. The sales send a very wrong message to "Taiwan independence" forces, China's U.S. embassy warned, saying the "Chinese government and Chinese people have every right to be outraged."
Most recently, Xi warned Trump in a phone call that "negative factors" were emerging in the U.S.-China relationship. He didn't get any more specific than that, but the U.S. Navy had just sailed a destroyer, the USS Stetham, past one of the Paracel Islands.
"As we have said repeatedly, no country has the right to speak irresponsibly on China's domestic affairs," a foreign-ministry spokesperson said.
Rights aren't worth the paper they're written on if China's on the wrong side of them. But if China feels wrong, all of a sudden, its own rights come back up again.


http://realmoney.thestreet.com/articles ... tart-ideas

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 22935
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 06 Jul 2017 07:37

India asks China to retreat from Bhutanese territory - Rajat Pandit, ToI
Making it clear that it will not buckle under heated rhetoric from China, India said a diplomatic resolution resulting in a Chinese pullback from Bhutanese territory would resolve the current border stand-off near the Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet tri-junction.

"This issue or tension should be resolved at the diplomatic level...It can be resolved diplomatically, which is what we want," said minister of state for defence Subhash Bhamre, speaking to journalists here on Wednesday.

"The Chinese troops should stay where they were earlier...They have entered Bhutan's territory...they should not intrude into Bhutanese territory. This is our security concern and this is our stand," he added.

Pointing to Bhutan's recent statement, which held China accused of trying to unilaterally alter the status quo by constructing a road inside Bhutanese territory in violation of all agreements, Bhamre said, "Understand what Bhutan is saying. This tension can be resolved only at a diplomatic level; across the table, we can solve all the problems."


This comes a day after the Chinese ambassador Luo Zhaohui, in an interview, added to the rhetoric from Beijing by ruling out a compromise in the ongoing troop face-off with India. He said the onus was on India to "unconditionally" pull back its troops to resolve the "grave" situation.

The Indian and Chinese armies have dug into positions on the Doklam Plateau, the Bhutanese territory being claimed by China to construct a motorable road towards the Zomplri ridge, in the stand-off since mid-June, as reported by TOI earlier.

China is fuming at the way Indian troops stationed in the Doka La general area, near the Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet tri-junction, stepped in to prevent the Chinese soldiers and construction workers from building the road.

India considers the Doklam Plateau, especially the Zomplri Ridge area, as "militarily very sensitive" because it overlooks the strategically vulnerable Siliguri corridor or the "Chicken's Neck" area, the narrow strip of land that connects the Indian mainland with its north-eastern states.

China has for years been trying to engulf the Doklam Plateau through "creeping but systematic territorial aggression" to add strategic depth to its adjoining but narrow Chumbi Valley, which juts in like a dagger between Sikkim and Bhutan.

Dumal
BRFite
Posts: 183
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Dumal » 06 Jul 2017 07:38

rsingh wrote:Not a single word from modi Ji. Cool as cucumber as they say.


Not just no word, he's been out happily enjoying Israeli hospitality... And no word from Jaitley or Rawat either after their initial blurbs... I love this silent treatment that squeezes all the venom out of the snakes in public! 8) 8)

I hope the denouement would also be silent.... No face saving and all that.

Iyersan
BRFite
Posts: 314
Joined: 19 Sep 2016 16:13

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Iyersan » 06 Jul 2017 08:11

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 462861.cms
India asks China to retreat from Bhutanese territory
War on the cards

tandav
BRFite
Posts: 250
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby tandav » 06 Jul 2017 08:46

Tibet is today a protectorate of China, previously Tibet and Bhutan was the protectorate of British India, just like today Bhutan is a protectorate of India. Given this China has no business defining borders of Tibet unless specifically invited by a Tibetan leader acceptable to Tibetan people just like Bhutan has invited India to protect its borders. It is to be noted that there is no internationally recognized legal instrument of accession of Tibet to China... It is China that agrees that Tibet is its spiritual head and bestows such titles to the Dalai Lama in Tibet. One China Policy essentially only recognizes China as a security provider in Tibet which is fluidly defined. Anyhow in matter of legality all treaties and agreements and MOUs have to be renewed periodically just like Govt of India renews its agreements with the people of India via elections. Tibet and Tibetan people have not renewed its protectorate status with China.

Now coming to solutions Security of Tibet could be also jointly ensured by a Indo-Chinese Tibet security force. Older Chinese treaties with Tibet very very specifically mention that Beijing would not interfere with the internal affairs of Tibet. However by engineering a demographic change and militarizing Tibet these clauses have been violated and seriously damaged Tibet's protectorate status, many would argue that therefore renders the treaties and sovereignty rights of China null and void. It also interesting to note that under the older formulations Tibet Lama==Beijing Emperor. Consequently Beijing leaders have no legitimacy unless approved by Tibetan spiritual head.

Regards the Tibet-Bhutan issue, Authentic representatives of Tibetan people (say the Dalai and Panchen Lama) and Bhutanese (say King Wangchuk) people should sit across the table and come to a diplomatic solution. This could a historic step in the creation of a Indo-China peace park in Tibet-Bhutan area where Indians and Chinese people have visa free access to the area for religious and adventure tourism. The Hydro-electric potential of Tibet could make it self sufficient by selling power to India and China. India and China can invest in such projects at suitable equity.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20875
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prem » 06 Jul 2017 08:55

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 Jul 4
More
India is deploying an entire armoured brigade to E.Ladakh with two regiments already fully operational.

AdityaM
BRFite
Posts: 1849
Joined: 30 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: New Delhi

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby AdityaM » 06 Jul 2017 09:00

As per a previous post by RSingh, he said that most Chinese foot soldiers are Tibetans.

If this is true, and a conflict breaks, then it's a well placed strategy by Chinese

Tibetans are genetically better suited for high altitude warfare than the hans.
But the moment bodybags start arriving in Tibet, it may just be used to create a groundswell of anger against India.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63134
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 06 Jul 2017 09:02

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 10h10 hours ago
More
I hope all the assorted RW munnas who screamed 'Gorkhaland' just for the heck of it, understand the nature of the game now.

Meanwhile, Global Times is now openly talking about instigating insurgencies against India in Sikkim and Bhutan.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63134
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 06 Jul 2017 09:04

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 21h21 hours ago
More
Replying to @SJha1618
A G-2 state is one that is dependent on the US for security and on China for trade and investment. Australia is a classic example.

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 21h21 hours ago
More
There is a big business-oriented fifth column in India that wants New Delhi to become a classic 'G-2' state.

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 21h21 hours ago
More
Seriously, India's main problem vis a vis China is the pro-Beijing business lobby which is propping up ignorant arseholes in think tanks.

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 21h21 hours ago
More
One think-tanker piece of shit who doesn't know his hand from his arse is suggesting that we 'appease' China while calling the IA 'obsolete'

tandav
BRFite
Posts: 250
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby tandav » 06 Jul 2017 09:08

1) Interestingly India recognized Tibet as an independent nation from 1947 to 1954. Tibet citizens could travel on their own passports.
2) Nehru did not appreciate this duty of protecting Tibet and cruelly betrayed Tibetans to the Chinese by not defending them militarily in 1950 under India Tibet protectorate treaties inherited from British India.
3)This is same clause that India is using to defend Bhutan from Chinese aggression today (It has taken 67 years for India to finally develop steely resolve to defend its protectorates).
4) Chinese representatives COULD not sign/initial/ratify on border agreements between Tibet and India since OBVIOUSLY they had no locus standi on the issue. Tibet was a independent nation (NOT) as is being portrayed that China did not agree to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet_(1912%E2%80%9351)

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3798
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby deejay » 06 Jul 2017 09:13

Singha wrote:...

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 21h21 hours ago
More
Seriously, India's main problem vis a vis China is the pro-Beijing business lobby which is propping up ignorant arseholes in think tanks.

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 21h21 hours ago
More
One think-tanker piece of shit who doesn't know his hand from his arse is suggesting that we 'appease' China while calling the IA 'obsolete'


ORF - Observer Research Foundation?

tandav
BRFite
Posts: 250
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby tandav » 06 Jul 2017 09:29

1) Military outcome at this stage is immaterial and transient... any aggression on China on the border will constrain India and other powers to support full Independence of Tibet.
2) Tibet is an Integral part of India's spiritual heritage and Dharmic people are constrained to defend Tibet's territorial integrity. I hope the Chinese realize this it was India's good faith that allowed PLA to take over security duties in Tibet as a brotherly civilization under the yoke of Colonialism when India did not have the resources.
3) It is preposterous that Dharmic people have to take permission from Beijing to visit the holiest of Dharmic pilgrimages in Tibet which was never the case in more than 3000 years of Tibetan history until the Chinese started claiming Tibet as their territory.
4) In the interest of peace Chinese citizens should lead a social media campaign targeting PLA to withdraw its troops from the holy land of Tibet and don't desecrate it any further by building/installing any more military infrastructure.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 22935
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 06 Jul 2017 09:37

Singha wrote: Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 21h21 hours ago
More
One think-tanker piece of shit who doesn't know his hand from his arse is suggesting that we 'appease' China while calling the IA 'obsolete'

The Business Line editorial echoes a similar appeasement strategy.
Despite the bonhomie shown during Modi’s visit to Washington, Donald Trump has shown little interest in our part of the world and India’s diplomatic leverage is limited. We can’t afford to abandon Bhutan and we need to resolve the crisis without loss of face. One suggestion has been to make some kind of economic concessions and that while we stay out of CPEC, we should offer to join one of China’s other grand economic schemes.

Mihir
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 863
Joined: 14 Nov 2004 21:26

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Mihir » 06 Jul 2017 09:37

deejay wrote:
Singha wrote:...

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 21h21 hours ago
More
Seriously, India's main problem vis a vis China is the pro-Beijing business lobby which is propping up ignorant arseholes in think tanks.

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 21h21 hours ago
More
One think-tanker piece of shit who doesn't know his hand from his arse is suggesting that we 'appease' China while calling the IA 'obsolete'


ORF - Observer Research Foundation?

Specifically, someone with a hyphenated last name. I have never seen a think tanki being wrong as many times as this chap. In one of his more recent gems, he claimed that India's indigenous weapons are "atrocious" because our colleges don't teach systems integration. Try making sense of that.

TKiran
BRFite
Posts: 855
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 00:22

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 06 Jul 2017 09:41

^^^^tandav sir, excellent, shatha sahasra pranamams...

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 22935
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 06 Jul 2017 09:43

deejay wrote:ORF - Observer Research Foundation?

I would suspect so.

I had posted here on the huge order for Chinese smartphones by Reliance Jio. We know that the other Ambani-led Reliance Power bids for Mega Power Plants on the shoulders of Chinese machinery manufacturers. Nothing wrong with business deals but when it comes to situations like these, they exert unusual pressure. Private think-tanks masquerade as genuine intellectual efforts but can be manipulated to push the agenda of the owners, especially when very large industrial houses back them up.

We have seen the intervention of InfoSys earlier, particularly Narayanamurthy.

yensoy
BRFite
Posts: 949
Joined: 29 May 2002 11:31
Location: USA

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby yensoy » 06 Jul 2017 10:00

Singha wrote:Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 10h10 hours ago
More
I hope all the assorted RW munnas who screamed 'Gorkhaland' just for the heck of it, understand the nature of the game now.

Meanwhile, Global Times is now openly talking about instigating insurgencies against India in Sikkim and Bhutan.


Global times is rabid, and also serves to poke/provoke India in different ways; our "free press" is not blameless either. Best is to stay unprovoked. If they revisit the issue of Sikkim, it will open up the whole question of legitimacy of Chinese rule over Tibet, and even the One China policy. They know it and we do.

tandav
BRFite
Posts: 250
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby tandav » 06 Jul 2017 10:49

AdityaM wrote:As per a previous post by RSingh, he said that most Chinese foot soldiers are Tibetans.

If this is true, and a conflict breaks, then it's a well placed strategy by Chinese

Tibetans are genetically better suited for high altitude warfare than the hans.
But the moment bodybags start arriving in Tibet, it may just be used to create a groundswell of anger against India.


It's a poor strategy by China and a great opportunity for India... this has the potential of making the entire India China border disputed. India will start talking on the Tibet China borders in the future regardless of initial military outcome.

Most of the Tibetan forces are border police and are not given heavy weapons. China fears these Tibetan soldiers may start fighting against the han core of the PLA. India has never funded terrorists in China unlike China has funded in India via its proxies in JK and NE because of this strategy China really does not know who will fight against them in Tibet.

Any war imposed on India gives an opportunity to impose tough law and regulations and do a deep internal cleanup, a chance to instill discipline and mutual trust among Indians to challenge themselves to take on the adversity.

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6886
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prasad » 06 Jul 2017 11:00

Staying mum after that initial terse but strongly worded statement has got the chinese hopping mad and its hilarious (ok not but still). Now they're openly calling for doing what they've been all along within india. Keep mum a tad more and keep your powder dry and they'll spill more hilarious nonsense. That tibet is firmly held but still very restive is not lost on either india or china. Each time they have protests in lhasa, they bring out their mountain brigade in their apcs to trawl through the streets to show the flag and intimidate the local folks. While at the border, they will be looking over their shoulders every other second. Even if we don't do anything at all on that front, unsubtle hints towards such will cause more hilarity.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7834
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Pratyush » 06 Jul 2017 11:09

Questions for those who know and understand the situation better then me.

Can this stand off go hot.
What will be the out come of this getting hot.

Muns
BRFite
Posts: 269
Joined: 02 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Muns » 06 Jul 2017 11:21

Guys, more for average consumption than a BRFite, none the less, let me know what you think

Image

Remember Nathu La! Facing the Chinese in Doka La.

http://www.india-aware.com/remember-nat ... e-doka-la/

No doubt in time, the stalemate will also result in the Chinese withdrawing to previous long-held borders by both Bhutan and China. As much as China boasts of the border war of 1962, (for which they also incurred heavy losses) a repeat border skirmish in 1967 known as the Nathu La Clashes would also serve as a potent memory.

In a similar standoff Chinese incursions led to a scuffle between Indian and Chinese troops. This later led to unprovoked firing while Indian Army Jawans were trying to lay border wire. While some in Jawans died initially in the firing, the retaliatory artillery response was so overwhelming that all the Chinese bunkers were destroyed in the response across Nathu La. Close to 350 Chinese were killed at the battle of Nathu La.

So what options does India really have on the diplomatic front? India has already had the Dalai Lama touring through Sikkim and Arunachal much to the distaste of the Chinese. It seems that the Dalai Lamas serves as a constant irritation to the ruling party in China for the danger he presents to a Independent Tibet.

Indeed, India may send feeders into the news media about rethinking its stand on its one China policy. Where is the need for India to recognize this policy when the Chinese simply do not reciprocate? The last few years have increasingly seen the Chinese become more belligerent in their brief forays into Indian territory, with the most recent being the 2013 Daulat beg Oldi incident, where the Chinese were forced to withdraw again.


On our part we may too support our Indian Jawans by really taking the stand against Chinese goods flooding the market. While this may be difficult initially, the Chinese would definitely feel a pinch if the largest growing economy were to place a levy on imported Chinese goods of around 30% via the newly launched GST.

The Chinese often refer to 1962 in any confrontation with India. What should be well known is the ferocity that the Chinese faced at Nathu La and the heavy losses they had to endure. The Chinese may dream about Mao’s palm and five fingers analogy, but at Nathu la Sikkim, only one finger gave them a very bloody nose.

'Jai Mahakali, Ayo Gorkhali!!'


Marten
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2176
Joined: 01 Jan 2010 21:41
Location: Engaging Communists, Uber-Socialists, Maoists, and other pro-poverty groups in fruitful dialog.

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Marten » 06 Jul 2017 11:46

Does China have enough acclimated troops or are they buying time until they are ready for battle? At what point will their Tibetan troops turn around and march to Lhasa?

An entire Brigade is nice - - how long will it take them to be ready for battle?

Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9206
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Hari Seldon » 06 Jul 2017 12:05

Image

SaraLax
BRFite
Posts: 496
Joined: 01 Nov 2005 21:15
Location: redemption land

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SaraLax » 06 Jul 2017 12:06

deejay wrote:
Singha wrote:...

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 21h21 hours ago
More
Seriously, India's main problem vis a vis China is the pro-Beijing business lobby which is propping up ignorant arseholes in think tanks.

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 21h21 hours ago
More
One think-tanker piece of shit who doesn't know his hand from his arse is suggesting that we 'appease' China while calling the IA 'obsolete'


ORF - Observer Research Foundation?


I heard rumours that ORF is supported by Reliance (of Bada bhai) and its the same JIO that is placing orders for millions of cheap 4G phones in China while the Reliance CHOTA BHAI's power company has obtained large loans from Chinese Exports enabling state bank (their EXIM bank type) & purchased numerous Power plant boiler & generation sets from Chinese vendors.

SaraLax
BRFite
Posts: 496
Joined: 01 Nov 2005 21:15
Location: redemption land

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SaraLax » 06 Jul 2017 12:23

yensoy wrote:
Singha wrote:Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 10h10 hours ago
More
I hope all the assorted RW munnas who screamed 'Gorkhaland' just for the heck of it, understand the nature of the game now.

Meanwhile, Global Times is now openly talking about instigating insurgencies against India in Sikkim and Bhutan.


Global times is rabid, and also serves to poke/provoke India in different ways; our "free press" is not blameless either. Best is to stay unprovoked. If they revisit the issue of Sikkim, it will open up the whole question of legitimacy of Chinese rule over Tibet, and even the One China policy. They know it and we do.


China .. for all its economic power & skills (often stolen from Russia & the West) .. is the perfect example of a country with a shameless Street Dog mentality .. that harasses people in its neighbourhood for no fair reason. The best response from our side is to allow the Chinese Street dog to bark out all of its energy & then shut up on its own due to the shame of having got no response from opposite side. Meanwhile - we should gather all our resources & line them up for a strength comparison with the Chinese side (they must also be poring through their satellite maps of our borders & nearby regions). We should also be vigilantly look at every Chinese movement (land/sea/air). We also need to work more intensely on building further our economic strength & look at smart ways of hurting some of those Chinese goods coming in to our country.

Next time - Modi goes to China .. he should specifically ask to meet the editor of Global Times (must be some army guy) and gift him & his deputy editors a month log Indian Visa and full expenses paid trip for attending an one month Pranayama & Mindfulness meditation course at ISHA yoga ashram or maybe at Baba Ramdev's yoga ashram.

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3798
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby deejay » 06 Jul 2017 12:37

Marten wrote:Does China have enough acclimated troops or are they buying time until they are ready for battle? At what point will their Tibetan troops turn around and march to Lhasa?

An entire Brigade is nice - - how long will it take them to be ready for battle?


If there is going to be land based action then October is the best time. Window closes in November.

Marten
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2176
Joined: 01 Jan 2010 21:41
Location: Engaging Communists, Uber-Socialists, Maoists, and other pro-poverty groups in fruitful dialog.

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Marten » 06 Jul 2017 13:34

deejay wrote:
Marten wrote:Does China have enough acclimated troops or are they buying time until they are ready for battle? At what point will their Tibetan troops turn around and march to Lhasa?

An entire Brigade is nice - - how long will it take them to be ready for battle?


If there is going to be land based action then October is the best time. Window closes in November.

Gives them more than enough time to bring in troops and acclimatize in time for action.
Rick Curtis, in the Princeton University Outdoor Action Guide to High Altitude: Acclimatization and Illnesses, suggests that you should “ascend at a rate of no more than 1000 feet per day after the first 10,000 feet” and “rest for an entire day each time you ascend 3000 feet.”

Coming from the plains (sea level), the troops will need 12-20 days to be battle-ready (assuming they are already fitter than the average joe).

Deejay, Sir, if you do not mind explaining this -- best time for us (being on the defensive) or them (for attacking) or battle itself (meaning both sides can fight better then)?

g.sarkar
BRFite
Posts: 1610
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 12:22
Location: MERCED, California

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby g.sarkar » 06 Jul 2017 13:36

http://www.rediff.com/news/special/how- ... 170706.htm
How Modi plans to deal with China

'Modi's China diplomacy signals a great change in India's attitude towards that nation -- from a defensive posture maintained over several decades to that of equal, controlled aggression,' reveals Uday Mahurkar in his fascinating new book, Marching with a Billion: Analysing Narendra Modi's Government at Midterm.
The first of a two-part series:
China is, of course, blocking India's entry into the Nuclear Suppliers Group by using its veto (in the 34-member body, the entry is through a unanimous resolution by the member nations).The chances of India getting into the NSG in the near future appear weak despite the fact that the US has publicly committed to make India a member. As a result of India's strident stand against China on many issues, the Communist nation is sullen with India and not going to yield easily on India's NSG bid. Many observers believe that despite China's hard position against India, Modi is building up enough pressure on China to get a good bargaining position with it in the times to come. But this view is severely contested by another set of observers who think China is too commanding in every way to allow India any bargaining power.
According to Daniel Twining, a foreign policy expert and director for Asia at the German Marshall Fund of the US, Modi is making all the right moves in the diplomatic arena, including in developing the India-US relationship vis-à-vis China.
As he puts it: "Modi is demonstrating the right vision against the backdrop of the emerging Chinese hegemony, the Russian stance and the growing terror threat." "India and the US together can be great pace-setters. But to realise India's full potential in the international arena and against China, Modi has to raise India's woefully low defence spending of around 1.62 per cent of its GDP and take it at least beyond 2 per cent at a time when countries like the US spend 4 per cent on defence." Walter Anderson, an expert on India at Johns Hopkins University who has studied the growth of the RSS, observes: "The most important factor in Modi's diplomacy is the recognition he has given to trade, which is reflected in the highest-ever FDI he has secured for India.""He has made the right approach to the US, but he has to realise that getting closer to the US and signing the communication agreement could distance him from China beyond redemption." But few would contest the observation that Modi's China diplomacy signals a great change in India's attitude towards that nation -- from a defensive posture maintained over several decades to that of equal, controlled aggression. India's approach to China has so far been marked by a meek kind of diplomacy where the big brother could take undue liberties with the younger brother who found himself powerless to act.
The Indian approach to China was based on platitudes like 'good brotherly relations' -- denoting a soft diplomacy, which, in the parlance of foreign affairs, rarely succeeds when not backed by hard power, particularly against a ruthless China.
The effort so far has been to engage China on a moral high ground at the cost of hard deal-making, which involves deterrents and checkmating moves. That soft diplomacy never pays is best displayed by the India-China story on the issue of a permanent seat in the UN Security Council.
In the early 1950s, when the US wanted India to be a permanent member of the council, India backed the Chinese claim to the seat despite severe opposition from many Western democratic powers and in spite of the fact that the Chinese had already intruded in Tibet.
Today, one of the main factors in the way of India becoming a permanent member in the UN Security Council is China's hostility.
But Modi is slowly changing the rules of the game, not just by appearing as a hard negotiator, but also by bringing in the powerful angle of cultural diplomacy by engaging in a skillful manner with the people of the Buddhist nations that affect China.
India is no longer China's underdog. India's new confidence in tackling the dragon was evident in Modi's visit to Vietnam, China's rival in the South China Sea, and the signing of the defence cooperation pacts with Hanoi when he was on his way to China for attending the 2016 Group of Twenty summit in Hangzhou. It was perhaps the strongest signal to China that India won't take its bullying lying down any more.
Modi gave another sign of India's new stance soon after the G20 summit in the way he chose to react to the China-Philippines dispute in the South China Sea at the summit of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations at Laos.
On the topic of the award given by the International Court of Justice at The Hague to the Philippines, Modi unambiguously called for accepting and respecting the decision in the letter and spirit of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. It is a different matter that the Philippines has, of late, moved closer to China. All these years, China has practised an encircling policy against India -- what is called China's 'string of pearls' strategy -- to surround India with strategic bases by befriending its neighbouring nations and countries in the Indian Ocean and the Pacific regions to check Indian interests on multiple fronts.
......

Gautam

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 22935
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 06 Jul 2017 13:46

Border standoff: Chinese state media takes aim at Bhutan, says they are not a happy lot - Shailaja Neelakantan, ToI
Chinese state media has now taken aim at Bhutan, saying that even though the Himalayan kingdom ranks high in the 'Happiness Index', its people are not a happy lot.

Amid the continuing India-China border stand-off, which also involves Bhutan, Chinese state media has thus far refrained from slamming the small Himalayan country, painting it as a nation under India's thumb and therefore forced to acquiesce to New Delhi's diktats.

Not any more. It's gloves are off.

"Bhutan is no Shangri-La," says an article in the hardline Global Times, written by a senior editor with People's Daily, the Chinese Communist Party's newspaper. People's Daily runs the Global Times.

The article not only says Bhutan's "lofty happiness index" is a facade, it also blames India's "effective control" over the country for its alleged unhappiness.


Former Bhutan king Jigme Singye Wangchuck devised the 'Gross National Happiness' (GNH) concept in the 1970s.

"He realised and declared that the existing development paradigm - GNP (or GDP) - did not consider the ultimate goal of every human being: happiness," says the GNH Centre Bhutan.

Global Times believes Bhutan isn't a happy country because it "expelled the ethnic Nepalese" who are now refugees in Nepal. And these refugees are not happy.

"In total, the refugees account for nearly one seventh of the Bhutanese population. They are probably the unhappiest people if measured by the happiness index," says the article.


That there are as many as "100,000 deported people" from Bhutan is also India's fault, says the Global Times article.

"The Indian military deposed the king of Sikkim in 1975 through a so-called coup and then led a referendum. At that time, Hindu Nepalese immigrants had become the majority of the population, and it was easy to imagine the result of the vote. Afraid of repeating Sikkim's fate, Bhutan has expelled the ethnic Nepalese within its borders," it says.

That India even "allows" a Buddhist territory like Bhutan to exist is down to the fact that it can't "swallow it up", says the article.

"Why does India allow a Buddhist territory to exist next door to it? This is mainly because Bhutan is a UN member and has diplomatic relations with many countries, making it difficult for India to swallow it up like India did to Sikkim," it says.

Even though it can't "swallow it up", India "exerts effective control over Bhutan's diplomacy, security and economy", the article says.

"India has long used Bhutan as a frontline countering China and a cushion between the two Asian powers, especially after the Sino-Indian Border Conflict in 1962," the article explains.

Today, Bhutan is even less tranquil than it might once have been, again because of India, says Global Times.


"Given China's rise and consequent growing influence upon South Asia, and with the development and opening up of Tibet, India is beset with more worries and misgivings, which is making it hard for Bhutan to maintain its peace and tranquillity," says the article.


g.sarkar
BRFite
Posts: 1610
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 12:22
Location: MERCED, California

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby g.sarkar » 06 Jul 2017 14:02


I remember a long time ago, a CPM sympathizer once told me what a scandal it was when HH the Dalai Lama fled to India with mules laden with gold. He complained that this gold was earned by the labor of the Tibetan people. The Chinese would have used this gold to bring prosperity to feudal and exploited people of Tibet. I am sure China has plans for bringing happiness and prosperity to the Bhutanese once they are liberated from the corrupt King and his family.
Gautam

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6975
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby JE Menon » 06 Jul 2017 14:03

The Chinese may make a mistake, and launch a large-scale grab of territory involving and/or including Bhutan and/or Sikkim. There should be total clarity as to the end-game.

The status quo ante should be restored by China.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests