Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2017 21:15

Philip wrote:China may have a numerical advantage in troops but what are their naval assets in the IOR? We can indeed turn their mrrchant fleet and naval assets into a" string of flaming red pearls" should we wish so.Furthermore,Chinese troops descending into Indian territory could extend their logistic link dangerously thin and could get cut off.



Philip, Naval actions will be side show.
At same time IN will sink the PLAN.
I can assure you of that.
So lets not bring in red herrings.
They will be eaten.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Iyersan » 19 Jul 2017 21:16

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 06161.html
Indian agencies rubbish claims of Chinese media about heavy troop movement on LAC

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Iyersan » 19 Jul 2017 21:17

ramana wrote:
Iyersan wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/china-india-sikkim-border-standoff-doklam-pla-beijing-tibet/1/1005448.html
Now, China moves tonnes of military equipment to Tibet. Should India be scared?


Folks don't go mad on Iyersan.

That is the title of the article by India Today.
Not him

What to do with a disloyal press in India?

BTW is hostilities start and any one whines about India I personally will give permanent ban for them.

Least we can do to support the military.

During Kargil, there were whiners and only Rupak and I were on the ball.

This time we will be proactive.

Thank you ramana sir. I am only putting news snippets :D

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Iyersan » 19 Jul 2017 21:21

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 304636.ece
No common ground on the Doklam plateau
M.K. Narayanan JULY 19, 2017 00:00 IST
UPDATED: JULY 19, 2017 04:32 IST

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2017 21:23

williams wrote:Signal should be send in the NPA circles if China preps for a missile attack, Indian will make Budha smile again. That will be enough for Uncles and Aunties to push China to be reasonable. India should already have prepared military targets set in Tibet to do equal-equal with Brahmos. If the missiles hit our cities, we have the moral right to hit theirs with BMs. CM vs BM does not matter as long as we have the range. I don't think our current govt cares about commie/lib civil society making noises. We will have louder noises made by common Abduls.



I would suggest no such thing.

India should wait to make China choose.
That is the logic of strategy now.

If they confine to Doklam La they lose.
If they escalate elsewhere Mahadev will let lose Virabhadra and clean up inside and out.
And Shakti will also make presence felt.
So either way we will see the fall of PRC and revival of China.
So let it happen.


Hitting Tibet wont hurt China.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Iyersan » 19 Jul 2017 21:24

China conducts military drill in Tibet amid fermenting border standoff with India
http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0719/c90000-9243706.html

China’s recent military moves along the Sino-Indian border have attracted international attention, with many experts commenting that the actions have sent a strong message to India amid the two nations’ standoff in the border area.
The live-fire exercises, which were conducted by a fully staffed and fully equipped brigade, used high-tech weaponry and multi-force attacks on the 5,000-meter-high plateau, China Central Television (CCTV) reported over the weekend, without mentioning when the drills took place.
PLA Daily, the official newspaper of China’s military, reported a drill conducted by the Xining military logistics unit, without specifying purpose or timing, on Tuesday. According to the report, thousands of soldiers and hundreds of military vehicles took part in the drill, transporting a large amount of military and medical equipment to the Kunlun Mountain range in northern Tibet.
Chinese state-run newspaper Can Kao Xiao Xi reported on Wednesday that the Indian military is heavily focused on developing its mountain military units in an effort to counterbalance China’s military presence along the mountainous border. India currently has 10 mountain divisions, one independent mountain brigade, and three backup mountain brigades, while the country has deployed eight mountain divisions along the Sino-Indian border, three of which are stationed at Sikkim.
Chinese experts believe that the actions showcased China’s strength and sent a strong signal to India. Though India has more troops scattered along the disputed area, China’s rapid deployment of troops, its powerful weaponry, and its advanced logistics support give China the edge over India.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 19 Jul 2017 21:35

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... s?from=mdr
The Indian Army has moved another 2,500 soldiers from their peace-time deployments in Sikkim to further reinforce its proactive stance in the ongoing troop face-off with China on the Doklam plateau, even as it maintains high alert along the entire 4,057-km Line of Actual Control from Ladakh to Arunachal Pradesh.

China has apparently also sent some troop reinforcements to Khamba Dzong and other areas near its Chumbi Valley, which juts in between Sikkim and Bhutan, in the backdrop of both armies being clearly unwilling to budge from their positions in the month-long stand-off now.
...
There are just about 300-400 troops each from India and China in the eyeball-to-eyeball but "non-aggressive" confrontation at the exact stand-off site on the Doklam plateau - which is actually Bhutanese territory but coveted by Beijing to add strategic depth to its narrow Chumbi Valley - near the Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet tri-junction.

But all Indian Army formations in the region, ranging from the 17 Division (headquarters at Gangtok) to 27 Division (Kalimpong) and 20 Division (Binnaguri), all infantry mountain warfare units with over 10,000 soldiers each, are maintaining "high operational readiness for any contingency", sources said.

Apart from the already-deployed 63 and 112 Brigades in east and north Sikkim, with 3,000 troops each, sources said two battalions under the 164 Brigade have also been "activated and moved up" to the Zuluk and Nathang Valley in the state.

Similarly, "some elements" under the 20 Mountain Division have also been moved to their exercise area. "The basic aim behind all this is to ensure availability of properly acclimatised troops, who can be mobilised at short-notice if required," the source said. On the actual face-off site, with each side headed by a colonel-rank officer, the Indian and Chinese troops are separated by a distance of just about 100-150 metres, with both having pitched tents and established logistics chains, as was earlier reported by TOI.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2017 21:36

khan wrote:Here is the second part of that diplomat article: http://thediplomat.com/2017/07/whats-dr ... at-doklam/



Very verbose article to show off research.

As I told on a Twitter DM,
Its not Bhutan. Its not Treaty.
Its strategic.

China can cutoff North East.
No acceptable to India.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Iyersan » 19 Jul 2017 21:38

Has the defence ministry given the go ahead for raising another mountain strike division. I read that estimates of costs around 6 billion USD. Can anyone confirm?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Iyersan » 19 Jul 2017 21:46

Hindu nationalism risks pushing India into war with China
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1057147.shtml
Since Indian troops illegally crossed into the Doklam area, China and India have been locked in a stand-off for over a month. Regardless of China's call urging India to withdraw its troops that have crossed the border, New Delhi has continued its provocation. At the same time, anti-China sentiments are rising in India with an upsurge of nationalism.

India harbors deep strategic suspicion toward China. It considers China as a rival and a potential enemy. For a long time, it has hyped that China is pursuing what is called the "String of Pearls" to encircle India. Despite China's goodwill in inviting India to join the Belt and Road initiative, India insists on interpreting the project as a part of China's strategic containment and encirclement of it.

Since India's defeat in the Sino-Indian War of 1962, some Indians have been stuck in a zero-sum mentality in dealing with China. The war inflicted lingering pain on India and it became a hard knot to untie, leading to an ingrained suspicion of Chinese strategy. China's development is seen as a misfortune to India. The faster China grows, the more fearful they are.

Nationalist fervor that demands revenge against China has taken root in India since the border war. The election of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi has fueled the country's nationalist sentiments. Modi took advantage of rising Hindu nationalism to come to power. This, on one hand, has enhanced his prestige and ability to control the country, but on the other, has made India more subject to the influence of conservatives, thus hampering reform. In diplomacy, New Delhi is demanded to act tougher in foreign relations, especially toward countries like Pakistan and China. The border row this time is an action targeted at China that caters to the demand of India's religious nationalists.

The Modi government can do nothing if religious nationalism becomes extreme, as shown in its failure to curb violent incidents against Muslims since he came to power in 2014.

Where the China-India competition goes hinges on each side's strength and wisdom. India is weaker than China in terms of national strength, but its strategists and politicians have shown no wisdom in preventing India's China policy from being kidnapped by rising nationalism. This will put India's own interests in jeopardy. India should be careful and not let religious nationalism push the two countries into war.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2017 21:47

X-posting Shiv's post with high lights. Read this with article the former Governor of Andamans and Pondicherry

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... s?from=mdr
The Indian Army has moved another 2,500 soldiers from their peace-time deployments in Sikkim to further reinforce its proactive stance in the ongoing troop face-off with China on the Doklam plateau, even as it maintains high alert along the entire 4,057-km Line of Actual Control from Ladakh to Arunachal Pradesh.

China has apparently also sent some troop reinforcements to Khamba Dzong and other areas near its Chumbi Valley, which juts in between Sikkim and Bhutan, in the backdrop of both armies being clearly unwilling to budge from their positions in the month-long stand-off now.
...
There are just about 300-400 troops each from India and China in the eyeball-to-eyeball but "non-aggressive" confrontation at the exact stand-off site on the Doklam plateau - which is actually Bhutanese territory but coveted by Beijing to add strategic depth to its narrow Chumbi Valley - near the Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet tri-junction.

But all Indian Army formations in the region, ranging from the 17 Division (headquarters at Gangtok) to 27 Division (Kalimpong) and 20 Division (Binnaguri), all infantry mountain warfare units with over 10,000 soldiers each, are maintaining "high operational readiness for any contingency", sources said.

Apart from the already-deployed 63 and 112 Brigades in east and north Sikkim, with 3,000 troops each, sources said two battalions under the 164 Brigade have also been "activated and moved up" to the Zuluk and Nathang Valley in the state.

Similarly, "some elements" under the 20 Mountain Division have also been moved to their exercise area. "The basic aim behind all this is to ensure availability of properly acclimatised troops, who can be mobilised at short-notice if required," the source said. On the actual face-off site, with each side headed by a colonel-rank officer, the Indian and Chinese troops are separated by a distance of just about 100-150 metres, with both having pitched tents and established logistics chains, as was earlier reported by TOI.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2017 21:58

X-Posting the former Governor's article on why 2017 is not 1962



Point of view from an expert.

Lt. Gen. BHOPINDER SINGH (R)
The writer is former lieutenant-governor of Andaman and Nicobar Islands and Puducherry
Why 2017 is not 1962
Published Jul 19, 2017,

The Chinese are past masters of both muscle-flexing and impressive posturing.
The recent stand-off at the Doklam plateau, and the inevitable parallels that are being drawn, makes it worthwhile to take another look at this conflict.

When Chinese editorials of its controlled media were baying for Indian blood and suggesting that Indians should “not forget history lessons” of 1962, the sharp rebuttal from defence minister Arun Jaitley that “the situation in 1962 was different, the India of today is different”, was not a political tit-for-tat but a cold reality that needs to be reiterated, stripped of any hyper-nationalistic import. The defence forces of India are specially guarded and weigh each word thoroughly through the prism of hard facts, as opposed to any political posturing. Herein the underpinning calculus of the Indian Army Chief’s stoic comment — that “India was ready for a two-and-a-half-front-war” — was a further confirmation of the Indian preparedness towards any eventuality. This is a fact, despite the numerical and material superiority that China has maintained over India since the 1962 war, and even during the 1967 border conflict at Nathu La and Cho La, as indeed now in 2017. It is equally true that China’s military investments are approximately thrice that of India’s ($151 billion as opposed to $51 billion for India in 2017), and that its standing Army is nearly twice that of India’s (2.3 million to 1.3 million), or even that its estimated nuclear warheads are more than twice that of India’s (260 to 110).

However, none of these statistics count in a restricted war in an isolated theatre. Intrinsically and perversely, the reality of nuclear warheads at the disposal of both the Chinese and Indian regimes fundamentally alter the dynamics as compared to 1962. It acts as a deterrent against escalation to a full-scale war — no two nuclear-armed countries have ever gone to a full-scale war. Principles of “calculated ambiguity” and “second-strike capability” in nuclear doctrines militates against any unilateral approach to undertake one decisive strike, using both conventional and nuclear arms. So, in essence, the equanimity afforded by the joint nuclear status constrains conflicts between warring nations to be restricted to a limited theatre, like Doklam. Excerpts from the leaked Henderson Brooks report, which studied the debacle of 1962 in detail, plot the morass that afflicted the Indian preparedness in 1962 at various levels, like organisational, policy, planning and overall preparedness. From blatant political interference in key command positions, lack of quality intelligence by the agencies, amateurish “forward policy” (overruling professional military concerns from the field commanders) and an overall lack of investment and equipment was reversed and corrected as soon as 1965. For those who state that the 1965 war was an India-Pak war and therefore cannot be equated with the Sino-Indian war dynamics, the following 1967 conflicts at Nathu La and Cho La entailed the Sino-Indian dynamics and the Indian forces came up victorious fair and square in the “restricted” theatre. The high point of Indian military’s professionalism was in 1971 and reiterated in “Kargil” in 1999. So 1962 was a forgotten chapter by 1965 itself, let alone 2017.


The ongoing steely stare down that is playing out in Doklam sector today, involving 6,000 foot soldiers, has more in common with a similar standoff in 1967, when a People’s Liberation Army attack on Nathu La was successfully repulsed, leading to a bloody nose for the PLA. No amount of numerical “paper strength” mattered for much in the eventual outcome that led to a humiliating fatality count of 400 PLA soldiers and an estimated 70 fatal casualties for the Indian infantry battalions. Significantly, the Chinese are not oblivious to the professionalism of the Indian soldier when they state in their columns, “India’s military has more experience in mountain combat”. Localised logjams like Doklam have their own dynamics and operational imperatives that are bereft of the “paper strengths” of hypothetical full-scale wars. Structurally also, the independent PLA is a potential threat to its own regime of the Communist Party of China. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Hence, the PLA swears its allegiance to the CPC and not to the country! So the “party Army” necessitates that all company-level PLA officers are also CPC members, and they have “political officers” as apparatchiks to ensure control. The non-military advisory CPC committee members have major say on military matters as opposed to the PLA itself. Amidst all this, “political work” is a significant part of the PLA training that entails wasteful propagandist indoctrination of the CPC’s, civilian sensibilities.

Unlike the Indian armed forces, who have been frequently involved in cross-border wars and insurgencies since 1962, the Chinese have had no major combat experiences. Its famed technological prowess is “reverse engineering” at best with unproven efficacy, whereas the bulk of Indian defence equipment and composition has either been bloodied in combat or is of a credible Western technological origin with proven capabilities. Never mind India, China’s perennial bug bear Taiwan has defied all Chinese belligerence and military bullying — three waves of “Taiwan Strait Crisis” have not altered Taipei’s resilience or sovereignty. :rotfl: With all its numerical strength, supposed “blue water” Navy capabilities, cutting-edge military platforms like the fifth generation Chengdu J-20, burgeoning nuclear weaponry, world’s largest army of cyber warriors and hackers, second largest fleet of drones and unmanned aerial vehicles — Chinese remain unsuccessful in their quest to wrest Taiwan, which is hardly 100 nautical miles from their mainland, :rotfl: equipped at a fraction of China, but with just about enough to give the Chinese a bloody nose!

It is in this context and realm of holding ground approach of the Indian narrative as opposed to the “expansionist” instincts of the Chinese that the Doklam standoff needs to be evaluated and appreciated. The Chinese are past masters of both muscle-flexing and impressive posturing. However, it is with the careful analysis of the PLA track record, evolution of the emerging global dynamics (India-US angularity) and the inherent battle preparedness of the Indian armed forces that the statements made by the Indian defence minister and the Chief of Army Staff need to be decoded. Like the last Sino-Indian skirmish in 1987 in the Sumdorong Chu Valley, it is expected that the thaw will soon ensue and diplomacy will take over to de-escalate tensions. However, history also suggests that the same happens with the Chinese only when the opposing nation has reciprocated the bullying and expansionist tendencies, like in Doklam.


Is this a cannon or a general.

What a summation of the situation!!!!

And last line is for the Indian media sympathizers/fellow travelers like Noorani, Yehchuri who want India to give up!!!!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 19 Jul 2017 22:16

Iyersan wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indian-agencies-rubbish-claims-chinese-military-movement-lac/1/1006161.html
Indian agencies rubbish claims of Chinese media about heavy troop movement on LAC

To quote
Agencies monitoring the situation said that no unusual movement has been made by the Chinese at the Line of Actual Control (LAC) for the last couple of months. They say China is only issuing war threats through its media only to pressure India.

As usual Psyops ... when open threats did not work. BTW, there is a song in praise all the good qualities of dada Xi. Dada Xi must protect his reputation as a tough guy.

PS: Me thinks, India has choosen to diss the latest *news* from across the border for the diplomats who have been briefed by Beijing on the imminent war.
Last edited by pankajs on 19 Jul 2017 22:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby tandav » 19 Jul 2017 22:18

amit wrote:
Bade wrote:Can anyone explain Mamta's flip flop. Is she on Chinese rolls ? Earlier it was China threat to Gorkhaland movement, now she is saying something different. At least the communists have not changed their story line.

Or is that their meeting with Rahul did not gain dividends, so they are trying Mamata now ?

The only message that China is sending out is that they are mad at us, but do not want war at the same time. Usually, one has to read the opposite meaning of the statements they make. When they say it is Chinese territory that India did incursion on, clearly it means the opposite.


In the case of Mamata everything is possible. As far as Rahul goes I'm quite sure the Chinese have factored in the fact that in any post-BJP/Modi scenario Rahul is not going to a major political factor. On the other hand Mamata, as CM of WB can exert a lot of pressure on the centre with the cry that WB security is at stake. For all you know that could still be the game plan - it seems from her statement - if there's shooting war at Dokalam. Mir Jafar was not a one off phenomenon.


I will not be surprised if top elements of the UPA over the last 60 years were secretly paid large sums of money / honey trapped with natashas / etc overseas to subvert Indian interests by various Chinese/US/Pak/Russian entities. Stopping NGO funds into India by Modi to be seen with this light.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 19 Jul 2017 22:21

Oops ... I had not read the whole report when I posted the last bit. Here is the most important part

However, according to the Indian agencies no such movement has taken place in the last couple of months. They said China has deployed about 15 divisions, or 50,000 troops, on the Indo-China border (LAC 3488 km). China has five operational air fields in Tibet. Its other five landing strips cannot be functional due to the lack of operational capabilities, they said.

The recent exercise by China, as claimed, in Tibet was about two months old. It was held in early part of June. Videos were released to put psychological pressure on India, the Indian agencies said.

China has deployed about five divisions in the Xinjiang area across north of Jammu and Kashmir.

The Indian agencies said we need not worry at all. The Chinese western command can be far from effective as India has deployed about 13 divisions facing LAC. The situation is not as critical as China is trying to make out of it.

In Doklam area, if war like situation erupts, that ratio will be 1:9 - China needs nine soldiers for every Indian personnel because we are in a dominating position.

As far as number of troops is concerned, India outnumbers China. Since 2009, China has been doing continuous exercise in Tibet to mobilise infrastructure there.

India is also monitoring the situation in Tsangpo area, opposite to Mount Kailash. In Arunachal Pradesh, this area is along Brahmputra river. China has constructed 11 bridges in this area. India's only concern is about 250 km border in this area. But the Chinese have not made any movement in this area.

On the last bit there must be a mistake. Mount Kailash is not opposite Arunachal Pradesh.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Iyersan » 19 Jul 2017 22:24

Dalai Lama draws support for Tibetan ‘freedom’ in Leh even as India-China ties sour over Doka La
http://www.firstpost.com/india/dalai-la ... 31823.html

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby kumarn » 19 Jul 2017 22:25

Ramana sirji, what is veerbhadra? Google is not helping!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 19 Jul 2017 22:42


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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prem » 19 Jul 2017 22:44

Indian Politicians meeting and greeting Chinese must be investigated for having stolen money banked in Macau. Its not a secret that many Swiss bank accounts were shifted to Macau and Africa.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 19 Jul 2017 22:44

>>China has deployed about 15 divisions, or 50,000 troops

even a lean manned russian division is 10,000. a indian 15000 and a american 25000.

15 @ 50,000 is not a division but skeletal brigades.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 19 Jul 2017 22:59

The report is riddled with errors. I caught one and you have caught another.

However, the gist of the report is correct. I just read a similar report on ET but sourced via PTI. It did not have any numbers however.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 19 Jul 2017 23:03

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 398_1.html
With Doklam negotiations under way, military believes it has emerged victor - Shooklaw [One has to be careful]
Generals say in a stalemate, India will have achieved its aims
Senior military officials in New Delhi believe Beijing badly overplayed its hand by heating up the rhetoric over the presence of Indian soldiers in the disputed Doklam bowl, adjoining Sikkim. They say in the stalemate that has emerged, India will have achieved its aims. The planners say that Indian forces have held the upper hand ever since they surprised Chinese troops by confronting them on behalf of Bhutan, and sticking to their position despite unprecedented aggression and threats from Beijing. “However this plays out, China is going to lose face, since it has made its ...

Rest is behind paywall .. I however feel it is too early to declare victory.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby VishalJ » 19 Jul 2017 23:22




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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby williams » 19 Jul 2017 23:30

Singha wrote:>>China has deployed about 15 divisions, or 50,000 troops

even a lean manned russian division is 10,000. a indian 15000 and a american 25000.

15 @ 50,000 is not a division but skeletal brigades.


And 75% of that are forces in the plains. They are not geared for mountain warfare both in terms of acclimatization and in terms of equipment. So as mentioned before, the quietness on our side is because we have won this round and there is nothing the Chinese can do about it.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2017 23:31

What is the correct spelling?

Dokhlam or Doakalam or Doklam La?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2017 23:33

Prem wrote:Indian Politicians meeting and greeting Chinese must be investigated for having stolen money banked in Macau. Its not a secret that many Swiss bank accounts were shifted to Macau and Africa.



I think the Chinese Amabssador called in the Lootera Quisling Gandhis* and read them the riot act.

* Note even the young son of Priyanka was there. Shows the whole new generation of Gandhis were called in.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SwamyG » 19 Jul 2017 23:34

Two countries with a combined population of 2.5+ billion going to war is no joke to the countries and the World. It is unlike America attacking Iraq, Afghanistan; or Iraq and Iran going to war; or Saudi attacking Yeme; or Iraq attacking Kuwait; or UK waging a war with Argentina, itiyadi.

After the World Wars, this will be truly a colossal war that will suck neighboring lands, people and countries. If it gets to an aar-ya-paar war; South East Asia will be sucked into this. Pakistan will be party to it. Will Japan stand quiet if Asia is blazing?

China, India and the others realize this. So it is in the best interest of all to have limited wars that will and should not escalate. People will want to give bloody noses and teach lessons; but war and more importantly threat of war are tools to achieve a strategy.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2017 23:42

China is now having a leadership crisis. They have escalated beyond their capability and now it could have blowback on them.

That's the problem now.

The thing for chatteratti to wonder about is how did China decide to take on a nuclear armed India? It could lead to bad stuff.

Same time Mao was dumb enough to start the Ussuri river clashes with Soviet Union in the mid 1960s. But he then had the Cultural Revolution in full swing.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby g.sarkar » 19 Jul 2017 23:53

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 669732.cms
No significant rise in troop level by China along border: Government sources
NEW DELHI: There is no significant rise in deployment of troops by China along the Sino-India border and its recent military exercise in the Tibet region should not be linked to the current standoff between the armies of the two countries in Dokalam, top government sources said today.
The sources said the exercise was a routine military drill by China and that its western theatre command has not made any major enhancement in its military might in the wake of the face-off that should.
.....
China's military yesterday had said it conducted the exercise to test its strike capability on plateaus.
....

Fake news from the lizard?
Gautam

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SwamyG » 20 Jul 2017 00:05

Even placing nuclear weapons aside, both countries have enough population and resources for them to go on and on. Using a tennis parlance; while the normal last set could end at 6-4 or 7-5; some countries could take it to 12-10 or something. India and China could take it to 97-95 levels. They just can pound each other and continue to stand up.

The poor South East Asian countries would end up in tatters, with both India and China jostling for the trade routes, military routes and command of the smaller countries there. India would hit at all the trade routes of China. Indian Ocean is not named for any small reason. It is INDIA's ocean.

Large distances on land & water can be only conquered by missiles. Cold and hot climates can only be conquered by missiles. Jungles and mountains can be circumvented only by missiles.

Coming to China itself, there are a few items that come to my head:
1. It wants to grab territory. It can never grab the whole of India and/or South East Asia. It can only grab parts of the lands.
2. It wants to show that it is the big boss of the region.
3. Internal politics, domestic turmoil etc.

Whatever be the reasons, India was poked and it stood up and asked "Kya bae gumakke doon kya?"

My prediction is that Modi and Doval will give China an exit strategy; and some BRFites might not like that. China cannot avoid losing face. Everyone will speculate what could have happened. China will have to swallow the hard pill, unless it is pushed to the corner or a lunatic grabs control.

ps: Now add the nuclear dimensions; it opens up a sea of worms. Not a can.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SBajwa » 20 Jul 2017 00:18

by Philip
We must start referring to Tibet as TIBET.


Let's start with wikipedia!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 20 Jul 2017 00:50

g.sarkar wrote:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 669732.cms
No significant rise in troop level by China along border: Government sources
NEW DELHI: There is no significant rise in deployment of troops by China along the Sino-India border and its recent military exercise in the Tibet region should not be linked to the current standoff between the armies of the two countries in Dokalam, top government sources said today.
The sources said the exercise was a routine military drill by China and that its western theatre command has not made any major enhancement in its military might in the wake of the face-off that should.
.....
China's military yesterday had said it conducted the exercise to test its strike capability on plateaus.
....

Fake news from the lizard?
Gautam



Iyersan , Here is GOI reply to the report you posted...
War of words is escalating.
In essence GOI called the Chinese report as economical with truth.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 20 Jul 2017 00:51

g.sarkar wrote:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 669732.cms
No significant rise in troop level by China along border: Government sources
NEW DELHI: There is no significant rise in deployment of troops by China along the Sino-India border and its recent military exercise in the Tibet region should not be linked to the current standoff between the armies of the two countries in Dokalam, top government sources said today.
The sources said the exercise was a routine military drill by China and that its western theatre command has not made any major enhancement in its military might in the wake of the face-off that should.
.....
China's military yesterday had said it conducted the exercise to test its strike capability on plateaus.
....

Fake news from the lizard?
Gautam


As I suspected. No build up means no actual fight being pursued by Cheen.

I've been telling people here, the PRC won't fight. They haven't in 40 years and it had worked well for them. They want to change facts on the ground through intimidation or numbers. They are a trading/industrial not a military power.

With no war, this won't end. Take the SCS for example, they took over by manufactured persistence with more ships and fake islands than the other guys could muster.

I believe they will try to do this at Doka La. They will try to outlast us through the winter months and see if we can maintain a persistent presence just like in the SCS.

But we don't have to play their game. Maintaining the status quo won't help us in the long run. They have time and resources on their side. We need to fight to up end the status quo.

If they don't re-enforce then that is their business. We have no reason not to hit them with overwhelming numbers. It would be 1962 in full circle.

Everything is in place for a defining victory.

Let's roll!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby g.sarkar » 20 Jul 2017 01:10

ramana wrote:
Iyersan , Here is GOI reply to the report you posted...
War of words is escalating.
In essence GOI called the Chinese report as economical with truth.

Ramanaji,
The war of words is actually one sided.Indian Government has been extremely reticent on this topic, speaking only when needed. Compare this with 1962 when there was a verbal diarrhea from the Indian side. Remember "not a blade of grass grows there"? and the comments about regrets on the loss of Assam? Modiji has wisely kept his peace.
Gautam

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby g.sarkar » 20 Jul 2017 01:14

pankajs wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virabhadra

OT, but since you brought it up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODt5FjnlE0g
Gautam

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby kumarn » 20 Jul 2017 01:23

Thanks!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Rudradev » 20 Jul 2017 04:15

First official word on this from Unkil.
https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2017/07/272665.htm

State Dept. Briefing July 18th 2017
QUESTION: Okay. And the – China yesterday briefed a lot of diplomats about the condition – the border conditions with India, and including the U.S. diplomat. What did they share with you, if you can say, or what is the U.S. position now on the tense situation on the border between India and China? Thank you.

MS NAUERT: Yeah. I know that that – thank you for your question and thank you for your kind welcome when I first came on board here. I know that the United States is concerned about the ongoing situation there. I know we believe that both parties, both sides should work together to try to come up with some better sort of arrangement for peace. And I’ll just leave it at that right now.


Basically a nothing statement. Diplomatically equal-equal.

The fun part is that this kind of equal-equal used to be applied to India and Bakistan. Now it is being applied to Cheen and India. What kung-pao jalan that must be causing in multiple quarters.

Things have come a long way from the time when Madeline Albright wanted Bill Clinton to bomb India for having the temerity to test nuclear weapons and claiming our right to maintain a deterrent against China.

In this time of intense focus on the trees, I don't know how many people are seeing the forest for what it is. Every single day Indian troops and Chinese troops face off on the Doklam plateau is an unquestionable victory for India. The Chinese, by having their myriad propaganda mouthpieces moan and bellow and growl about it, are only drawing the world's attention to the fact that they are NOT able to defeat India, and have no good options for doing so.

Ramana mentioned Ussuri River clashes. Ussuri River and Zhenbao Island incidents were directly related to PRC acquiring a P5 Seat on the UNSC, and to its rise as a global superpower.

India has had moments of prevailing against China's aggression within our own territory before: 1967, 1986, etc. However, this is the first time we've projected power beyond our borders to confront the Chinese. We have drawn a line in the sand that is not about safeguarding our internationally recognized territorial boundaries but expanding our de-facto sphere of influence. This is our Ussuri moment. Whatever happens, the global consensus on India and China will never again be the same as what it was before this summer.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Muns » 20 Jul 2017 04:32

Sikkim standoff: Doklam will prompt new thinking on India-China relations

http://www.india-aware.com/sikkim-stand ... relations/

The Chinese cannot make any gain with the existing number of troops in the Western Theatre Command and any movement from elsewhere would mean the element of surprise would be lost, said defense sources monitoring the standoff.

The Indian Air Force has 22 airfields in the Eastern sector. The Chinese air force has 15 air bases and 27 airstrips. The Indian Air Force is at a significant advantage over the Chinese along this part of the border in the Eastern Himalayas because all the Chinese bases are located high in the Tibetan plateau and therefore, jets taking off cannot carry their full weapon load. All India’s bases are in the plains and there are no operational constraints.

One available option is the Special Representative Meeting (SRM) that was set up primarily to deal with border issues. Over the past decade and a half, the SRM has been enlarged to some extent to deal with strategic issues.

It will not be the first time that the SRM has been used in this manner to deal with knotty problems outside border matters.As of now, it appears to be the only viable and meaningful option to tackle the impasse. The Special Representatives should, hence, urgently establish contact and work out a modus vivendi that would ensure a solution without loss of face for either side.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby VenkataS » 20 Jul 2017 05:48

If a war does happen we should grab twice the land that they have grabbed from us in the past before a cease fire is declared. This is so that when they eventually come to the negotiating table we would at worst only lose the additional half that we grabbed and retain the part that we have lost to them in the past.

Prime targets should be
1. Chumbi Valley and Dokalam Plateau
2. Chinese occupied Ladakh (Aksai Chin according to them)
3. Trans-Karakoram Tract
4. Chinese occupied Tibet

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Mort Walker » 20 Jul 2017 05:56

It won't be a land grab, but more to punch India in the face, give it real bloody nose and to teach it a lesson not to mess with Asia's master the Chinese.


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