Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

[SriKumar]

^^^ Maybe so, but the current situation is a military confrontation with a possibility to escalate into war. It behooves us to determine what the endgame is- or should be, in case fighting breaks out. And what does India do if fighting does not happen, i.e. if the Chinese evacuate Doka La in winter and not come back (does India too withdraw its army, only to face them the next time they dispute some territory somewhere else).

[Manish_Sharma]

The one scenario I want to discuss is IA's ability to occupy meaningful areas in Tibet.

Perhaps we should start a new thread on military strategies for the recovery of Tibet.

I think couple of years back poster Shri Rajesh A had created a thread like that. Will search for it.
____________________
Here found it:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6577

[SSridhar]

On the question of Indo-China Sea, there is no need for members to take on a moral high-stand. That's futile & unwarranted.

China has claimed at various times that it is entitled to it because it bears the name 'China'. It has absolutely no other proof of dominating this sea or having controlled any of the islands that dot it. It tries to curtail freedom of movement & navigation in this sea. INS Airavat, IN's amphibious assault vessel, on international waters after leaving a scheduled port visit to Vietnam and going from Nha Trang port in south central Vietnam towards Haiphong, was "buzzed" on an open radio channel by a caller who identified himself as belonging to the Chinese navy and demanded the Indian warship identified itself and explain its presence on the waters there. It is now known that INS Airavat was continuously tracked by PLAN during its entire voyage to the region and the order to challenge her came from the Chinese Naval Headquarters.

Almost a year later, in June 2012, a contingent of four Indian naval ships from Philippines to South Korea (and later to visit Shanghai too) received an unexpected message, “Welcome to the South China Sea, Foxtrot-47,” buzzed a People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) frigate to the INS Shivalik (F47).”. For the next 12 hours, the Chinese warship would provide an unscheduled escort to the four Indian vessels. While the tone of the message was welcoming, the content as well as the unwanted escort they provided for 12 hours conveyed the message that those waters belonged to China and the Indian naval ships were guests of China in Chinese waters.

At the same time, it pokes at us claiming that Indian Ocean is not "India's Ocean" and PLAN can do anything here. Claiming that IOR is not India's "backyard", PLAN has said, "The word backyard is not very appropriate to use for an open sea and international areas of sea". Of course, they conveniently forget it when it comes to their own "backyard".

India has therefore every right to disabuse the Chinese of their notion of "ownership" of that part of the sea that they claim as their "backyard". China even produced a map of "National Shame" that included large parts of India & the Andaman Islands as territories under its 'tian xia' rule. I would say that it is therefore a national shame for us to continue to call 'that' sea by the Chinese designation and claim of ownership.

We can call it Indo-China Sea or Champa Sea or whatever, but should definitely not continue to refer to it by the existing nomenclature. We are not being hegemonic when we say 'Indo-China Sea'. It cannot be (mis)construed as 'imposing Indian culture' over this region. Of course, there is a greater Chinese influence over the peoples of this region because of the land border they have had and their tributaryship with the Chinese emperors for almost two millennia. India also had over a millennia of influence over these very same areas. This is not insignificant either. The Hindu or Buddhist influence was not established through wars. Only the Dai Viet, who occupied a small northern part of present-day Vietnam was Sinicized because they moved there during the Qin dynasty (~ 200 BCE). To the south of this region known as Annam, lay the Champas. They were geographically well placed to conduct the trade from the Indian shores all the way upto Western Pacific.

The term Indo-Pacific is thus not just the fertile imagination of somebody. It is this Sanskritic Champa culture that prevented the Sinicization of Vietnam of today. The Malayan SriVijaya Kingdom, followers of Mahayana Buddhism, which controlled Malakka, is another example. They were then overcome by the Cholas as their piratical behaviour interfered with the Chola sea-trade. Can anybody deny the deep influence of Indian culture over Cambodia, Laos? Even today, part of their names, whether in Thailand or Cambodia or Indonesia is Sanskritic.

There is therefore a reason why the term 'Indo-Chine' or 'Indo-China' was coined. It has as much relevance and rights as 'South China'.

So, let's stop calling 'that' sea by that name and call it as Indo-China Sea (as Philip suggested a while ago and which some of us regularly use) without quibbling over it and without any feeling of guilt or moral superiority etc. It is just an unequivocal compulsion of time.

[Sanju]

China acts on the principles of "might is right" and of "possession is 9/10th of the law." China has economic might, and thanks to relentless snooping and reverse engineering, plenty of military might as well. And China has used it to claim and then to build on its claims... nobody is moving them from the Spratly Islands, and nobody is moving them from Aksai Chin nor even from Dokalam Plateau.

I am not sure what you mean by that, as the whole stand-off is because we have stopped them at the Doka La Plateau and when this ends, they will be off the plateau.

[khan]

The one scenario I want to discuss is IA's ability to occupy meaningful areas in Tibet.

Perhaps we should start a new thread on military strategies for the recovery of Tibet.

I think couple of years back poster Shri Rajesh A had created a thread like that. Will search for it.
____________________
Here found it:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6577

That thread you resuscitated isn't related to military strategy. There has to be something better out there.

[chola]

Who the hell cares what a sea is called in English anyways? Each nation calls its local features in their languages. Trying gain imaginary advantage through naming is pointless.

Unless we go to war and fight, the PRC because of their money printing press and projects like OBOR will increasingly wield more and more influence in every nation and region that surround us.

It will happen as long as the lizard is left in peace to just build and build and scheme and build. That is its core strengths. They are most powerful when given time and space.

Our major strengths against Cheen is overwhelming advantages in men and material along our border with Cheen and in the IOR.

We own a 20 to 1 ratio in men over the chinis at the border. This advantage must be used to its fullest.

The PRC has presented us with an opportunity. We need to explode across the border like Shiva the Destroyer. We must inflict a crushing defeat on them in the shortest time possible. Open a front in the IOR at the same time and bring their economy to its knees. Force them to sue for peace.

Everything is in place. We have the numbers. And we have the excuse.

Let's roll!

[Arjun]

It will happen as long as the lizard is left in peace to just build and build and scheme and build. That is its core strengths. They are most powerful when given time and space.

Well, there's a way to quantify how they are doing on their 'core strength'. That quantification is called GDP growth....and they are losing out there to India as well.

[rsingh]

I think Indian media is ok. There is nothing to report and public wants more masala. once first bullet is fired, media will be firmly behind GOI and IA.

[SwamyG]

SriJoy please read "The Ocean of Churn" by Sanjeev Sanyal. You will understand the interconnectedness of the people living in the shores of Indian Ocean. We have lots of connection. The lands are not as distant as you portray

[abhik]

https://youtu.be/eGs_dcXt-3k?t=2m26s
Average cost to equip a US soldier is $17.k vs $1.5k for PLA soldier. It shows.

$1.5K in real dollars or PPP dollars ? Because in PPP terms, $1.5K in China is about $3K. Still nowhere close to Unkil but not as shabby as $1.5K would be.

It's an estimate, not PPP, if anything the actual number might be even less.

[chola]

It will happen as long as the lizard is left in peace to just build and build and scheme and build. That is its core strengths. They are most powerful when given time and space.

Well, there's a way to quantify how they are doing on their 'core strength'. That quantification is called GDP growth....and they are losing out there to India as well.

I wrote about this ad nauseum:

Their base GDP is $11T, ours is $2T. If we grow by the projected top of our range at 8% (we grew at 6.7% in last quarter) and the PRC at their projected low end 4% (they were 6.9% in the latest quarter):

8% x 2T is $160B : 4% x 11T is $440B. So even if we took the best case scenario, they will add close to three times what we will add to our economy.

Forget it, the gap will continue to widen in absolute terms in our lifetime even in the best case.

This is the perfect opportunity to go to war with overwhelming advantages.

The ratio is 20 to 1 in our favor in manpower along the border. The PLAAF has only 24 J-10s and J-11s based in Tibet on a permanent basis.

Think about. Why the hell are we waiting? To see if CPEC and OBOR work out? Hoping they fail is not a strategy.

Let's roll!

[Arjun]

Forget it, the gap will continue to widen in absolute terms in our lifetime even in the best case.

This is the perfect opportunity to go to war with overwhelming advantages.

But the gap will continue to narrow in relative terms going forward. And relative rather than absolute I would think is the more relevant metric.

I don't disagree with your conclusion though...If the war were to be initiated by China it would be in India's interest to vastly widen the scope and aim to un-neighbour (!) China.

[DavidD]

We are not hijacking anything from anyone unlike China.Why do we always have to be "apologetic" about our global heritage and the enormous influence we've had on Asia in particular? It is China that is trying to appropriate Buddhism by building its own Disneyland Buddhist centre to rival the Potala Palace,while it simultaneously calls upon its citizens to denounce religion!

This servile mentality of most Indians in denying their rightful influence upon the world is mainly due to the 500 years of European domination in Asia,which began when Vasco-Da-Gama landed up on our shores.Thanks to their huge naval superiority,the Portugese,supplanted by the Dutch,supplanted by the English who were stronger than the French,established their colonies to steal the wealth of Asia.But everywhere you go to in ASia,you see the enormous Indian influence esp. n the amazing architectural monuments like Borubudor in Indonesia,Bali too,Angkor Wat in Cambodia,the Burmese and Thai Buddhist temples...even in China and Japan!

Gandhian non-violence alone did not gain us Independence.The Brits themselves acknowledged that it was Netaji and the INA,the RIN mutiny,etc.,that saw them vamoose from India.They feared another "Mutiny" and being thrown into the IO unceremoniously by hundreds of millions of Indians taking to arms. Similarly,the Nehruvian foreign policy came a cropper when China called his bluff in '62. Nehru's misplaced "moral" authority of India came to naught when faced with a godless,amoral,greedy,rapacious beast like China.At least in those days China claimed to be Marxist and followed a Communist agenda pf spreading revolution..Today it pays lip service to those ideals and is nothing more than a giant of a brigand,set upon open avowed global domination,where it preys upon the rest of the world to feed its vainglorious ambitions.

India is the only nation in Asia that can stop the Chinese from this quest of theirs,expounded by OBOR and other shady gambits.If we fail to stand up and speak out boldly,not just India,but Asia also will be lost.The nations of Asia ,and most admire and look upto India for its heritage,need to be reassured by India that we will not succumb to the rapacious Chinese and by renaming geographical entities like the ICS are small but significant steps to show the world that like the moon,the world is not a ball of Chinese tofu.

You're kidding yourself if you think East Asians look up to anyone darker than them. My experience is that they're homogenously racist as shiz, and worship whiteness (literally and figuratively) as beauty.

[Singha]

Chola, cheen railways alone has a internal debt of $550b per a FT article yday. their attempt to conquer the world on back of exporting railway tech is floundering as other countries cannot bear such _external_ debt loads. indonesia is strongly pushing back even on a small jakarta to bandung hsr 120km.

numbers mean nothing. relative to GDP even TSP is very very powerful. so is iran. and vietnam and our best example below.

this is not a vegas gambling table or bidding war over some asset where only cash talks.

this is the kind of stlong leader cheen needs at this point to be #1

[Iyersan]

$1.5K in real dollars or PPP dollars ? Because in PPP terms, $1.5K in China is about $3K. Still nowhere close to Unkil but not as shabby as $1.5K would be.

It's an estimate, not PPP, if anything the actual number might be even less.

That means China is using substandard equipment. I have reference that PPP $10 (India) - $1 (US)
Anyways at the above rate, there are 2 alternatives
High degree of localization in hardware for the soldier for the Chinese or
Substandard hardware not within specs to meet requirements

[g.sarkar]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/as ... c8d2a19f05
Asia & Pacific
India ready for talks with China on border standoff
By Ashok Sharma | AP July 20 at 7:51 AM
NEW DELHI — India said Thursday it is ready to hold talks with China if both sides pull back their forces to end a standoff along a disputed territory high in the Himalayan mountains.
Tensions flared last month in the southernmost part of Tibet in an area also claimed by Indian ally Bhutan, after Chinese teams began building a road onto the Doklam Plateau.
Bhutan, a tiny Himalayan kingdom, sought help from New Delhi, which sent troops across the border from the northeastern state of Sikkim. China retaliated by closing a nearby mountain pass that Indian pilgrims use to reach Mount Kailash, a sacred Hindu and Buddhist site in Tibet.
Indian External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj said a 2012 agreement bound China and India to settle the boundary issue with Bhutan. Her response came as China demanded that Indian forces leave the area to avoid an escalation.
India and China fought a bloody war in 1962.
Speaking in Parliament, Swaraj said Chinese forces recently came with bulldozers and excavators with the intent of building infrastructure that would change the status quo. In the past, the Chinese have built temporary roads in the area.
“If China unilaterally changes the status quo of the tri-junction, it becomes a matter of security concern for India,” she said, referring to the area where the three countries meet.
Swaraj said China has been demanding that India withdraw its forces from the area. “If China wants to discuss the matter, both sides should withdraw their forces and talk,’” she said.
She also said that China was becoming “aggressive” with Bhutan following its protest of the Chinese move.
In Beijing, Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Lu Kang reiterated his country’s stand that the withdrawal of Indian border guards to Indian territory is a “prerequisite and foundation for any meaningful talks between China and India.”

Nothing new, but Khan newspapers are finally reporting/commenting.
Gautam

[chola]

Forget it, the gap will continue to widen in absolute terms in our lifetime even in the best case.

This is the perfect opportunity to go to war with overwhelming advantages.

But the gap will continue to narrow in relative terms going forward. And relative rather than absolute I would think is the more relevant metric.

I don't disagree with your conclusion though...If the war were to be initiated by China it would be in India's interest to vastly widen the scope and aim to un-neighbour (!) China.

The relative gap will not much of a difference when you talking about resources to expand influence and power.

Think of it this way: never mind they have a larger stash of cash to begin with, this year they will get $440B more to build stuff and bribe people while you only get $160B. They extend their advantage.

Cheen will not fight. They haven't even re-enforced their numbers. They haven't fought in 4 decades and they won't start now. But it is not in our interest to let them off the hook.

Why do we have to wait and see if they initiate? Fvck that. If they threaten a fight, we don't have to wait until they actually attack. We need to just beat the crap out of them.

[g.sarkar]

https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/nat ... nnel-talks
India trying best to diffuse Doklam impasse via back-channel talks
All is not quiet on the Indo-China diplomatic front. Contrary to perception, India has opened back channel talks with China to resolve fast growing differences between the two countries on the Doklam tri-junction of India-Bhutan and China border.Jayant Prasad, former Indian diplomat and presently Director General of the Institute of Defence Studies and Analysis (IDSA), is said to have made two trips to Beijing recently to speak to Chinese officials on the matter, highly placed diplomatic sources informed National Herald.All attempts to contact Prasad failed as no one picked up the phone at the New Delhi-based IDSA office.Prasad is a career diplomat who has held many important diplomatic positions, including that of the Indian Ambassador to Nepal where he is said to have developed close relations with Chinese strategic experts.Prasad comes from a highly respected family of academics and diplomats. His father Professor Bimal Prasad taught at the prestigious Jawaharlal Nehru University’s School of International Studies and was later appointed Ambassador to Nepal by the Vajpayee government.Jayant Prasad is reported to have deep discussions with Chinese interlucators and brought back messages from the Chinese capital that are being taken seriously by the Indian Foreign Office, sources informed.The situation at the border remains tense and India is keeping its nerves calm despite Chinese provocation. Quietly, however, the government is active on all fronts. The defence establishment is engaged in meeting any eventuality if it arises.
....

Will the lizard eat humble pie?
Gautam

[chola]

Chola, cheen railways alone has a internal debt of $550b per a FT article yday. their attempt to conquer the world on back of exporting railway tech is floundering as other countries cannot bear such _external_ debt loads. indonesia is strongly pushing back even on a small jakarta to bandung hsr 120km.

numbers mean nothing. relative to GDP even TSP is very very powerful. so is iran. and vietnam and our best example below.

this is not a vegas gambling table or bidding war over some asset where only cash talks.

this is the kind of stlong leader cheen needs at this point to be #1

Lol. Numbers are everything when all are said and done. I'm from Wall Street so for good or ill, that's my opinion. BTW, GDP is the last number we look at. The top numbers are simple sales or transactions. Those show the true state of economies. I use GDP as a relatively simple way of illustrating my point instead of going into all sorts of numbers on consumption of white goods, durables, energy, capital expenditures, blah blah blah.

Debt? Who cares. The US, Japan and EU are heavily in debt. To themselves.

Somalia, Haiti and all of the poorest nations have FAR less debt. But they can't create credit to do anything either. The ability to print money and outrageous credit/debt without going into hyperinflation is available to advanced economies only.

The fact that Cheen can build those HSR networks and still kickoff something like OBOR is indicative of US/Japan-style printing press.

No, rather not leave our future to a race with their strengths.

We have an overwhelming military victory staring us in the face (yes, it is because of the numbers I see as well) and I'm scared to death that we won't take advantage of it.

[chola]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/as ... c8d2a19f05
Asia & Pacific
India ready for talks with China on border standoff
By Ashok Sharma | AP July 20 at 7:51 AM

https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/nat ... -channel-t
India trying best to diffuse Doklam impasse via back-channel talks

Screw this. Those make it seem like India as the one asking for talks under Cheen's threats.

[Arjun]

No, rather not leave our future to a race with their strengths.

While I am in synch with your immediate recommendations, my concern is that it seems to arise from a sense of racial inferiority that is completely unfounded in data !

The best unbiased setting for judging the relative merits of the two communities is obviously the country you live in and of which I am a citizen....Indians beat Chinese on several attainment parameters, and Chinese beat Indians on some. Overall I would say Indians do better than the Chinese or at worst they are equal.

[chola]

^^
Problem is, Nazi Germany made the same calculus about Russia- that Russia's industrialization under the communists would make Russia catch up and surpass Germany in absolute terms, hence war now > war later.
Ofcourse, it is a different scenario and we are not in the midst of a world war, but we need to avoid the mistakes Germany made relative to its bigger, badder neighbour.

No, Germany's initial strategy was right. If they stopped at Ukraine they would have won the war and crippled Russia as a power. Instead they decided to take Moscow, winter hits and it was history.

I state specifically we needed a short war that doesn't go total or nuclear. We can't win a war of attrition with Cheen. But we can win overwhelmingly along the border and then stop. (They did the same in 1962.) We can strangle them in the IOR and force them to the table.

[chola]

No, rather not leave our future to a race with their strengths.

While I am in synch with your immediate recommendations, my concern is that it seems to arise from a sense of racial inferiority that is completely unfounded in data !

The best unbiased setting for judging the relative merits of the two communities is obviously the country you live in and of which I am a citizen....Indians beat Chinese on several attainment parameters, and Chinese beat Indians on some. Overall I would say Indians do better than the Chinese or at worst they are equal.

Racial inferiority? Are fvcking you daft? This has nothing to do with race.

I wrote repeatedly that NRIs do far better in the US corporate world than the chinis.

It has nothing to do with race. It has to do with numbers. The PRC is way ahead economically. I wrote about this many times before. Their consumption numbers vis a vis ours are far worse than what even dollar denominated GDP indicates. Most of those are 10 to 20 times that of India.

Their weakness is their military culture and their geo-political landscape. They can't fight and can't put numbers on our borders whether on land or sea.

So you rather we take our chances waiting things out or going to war where we own overwhelming advantages? Being smart with the numbers doesn't mean you must feel racially inferior.

[Arjun]

Racial inferiority? Are fvcking you daft? This has nothing to do with race.

Calm down, Chola ! If it has nothing to do with race, then you may want to stop using that term in your posts to convey how far they are ahead.

Looks like you meant to say, you would rather not leave the future to a country of their strengths.

Morover, consumption figures are likely to change dramatically over the next decade for India just as they have for China over the last decade. And this is not even factoring in the effect of currency fluctuations which can also change things quite drastically.

[chola]

Racial inferiority? Are fvcking you daft? This has nothing to do with race.

Calm down, Chola ! If it has nothing to do with race, then you may want to stop using that term in your posts to convey how far they are ahead.

Looks like you meant to say, you would rather not leave the future to a country of their strengths.

Morover, consumption figures are likely to change dramatically over the next decade for India just as they have for China over the last decade. And this is not even factoring in the effect of currency fluctuations which can also change things quite drastically.

Arjun-ji, pardon me for my previous language, but every country has its strengths and weaknesses.

When competing whether in business, sports or geo-politics, why would you ever play to your opponent's strengths?

Cheen's strengths are its economy and its industry. Its weakness is its SYRE non-warrior culture and single-child little emperor-filled army that hasn't fought in decades.

Guess what we should do when presented with an opportunity like Doka La?

[pankajs]

It is fighting men that win wars while industry and economy help but on their own they can't win wars. You need fighting men on ground zero to enforce your writ. If industry and economy were the sole determinant of war US would ha crushed Vietnam in the '70.

China is over the hump while India will still continue adding working/fighting men for the next 30 years.

GOI is correct in trying not to get into a shooting match. If both withdraw from the contested area we should be good. In any case, our position at Doka la allows us to keep a vigil on the area. Perhaps we should mount a more regular patrol into the area rather than leave it to the Bhutanese.

[chola]

No, Germany's initial strategy was right. If they stopped at Ukraine they would have won the war and crippled Russia as a power. Instead they decided to take Moscow, winter hits and it was history.

I state specifically we needed a short war that doesn't go total or nuclear. We can't win a war of attrition with Cheen. But we can win overwhelmingly along the border and then stop. (They did the same in 1962.) We can strangle them in the IOR and force them to the table.

I don't think Germany could've afforded to stop in Ukraine, as they needed the Baku oilfields. Hitler's biggest blunder of WWII was focusing on Stallingrad instead of swinging south and securing Baku.

As for limited war, i agree. But if we cannot afford a war that goes total, we need to understand what would prevent China from pressing for a total war option, just to 'save face' at home.

The oil fields were critical for an offensive. If they stopped after the Ukraine, they would have sundered Russia from Europe and reduced it to a minor power.

What's more it would have allowed them to concentrate on North Africa and the Mid-East and the oil fields there. Great Britain would have been their main opponent there.

Anyways, I don't advocate that kind of total warfare. Here is what I envisioned earlier as a perfect scenario.

chola wrote:
Our objective should be VERY clear:

Give Cheen a crushing military defeat along the border and, ideally, create suffocating chaos for the chini economy by cutting off its trade routes in the IOR.

Because Cheen is a rational trading power with non-military culture, a short war is possible especially if we overwhelm them in the theaters of our choice and give them no incentive to pursue further hostilies by limiting territorial gains to what we lost in 1962 and bit more in defensible positions. It won't go long term or total war if we don't get victory disease and attempt to detach Tibet as a whole. They'll settle down to making money again once we magnanimously release our chokehold on the IOR and trade flows again.

[chola]

It is fighting men that win wars while industry and economy help but on their own they can't win wars. You need fighting men on ground zero to enforce your writ. If industry and economy were the sole determinant of war US would ha crushed Vietnam in the '70.

China is over the hump while India will still continue adding working/fighting men for the next 30 years.

GOI is correct in trying not to get into a shooting match. If both withdraw from the contested area we should be good. In any case, our position at Doka la allows us to keep a vigil on the area. Perhaps we should mount a more regular patrol into the area rather than leave it to the Bhutanese.

You are totally missing the point.

Economy and industry win in peace time. Fighting men and machines win war.

We have many times more fighting men and machines along the chini border then Cheen.

And you are suggesting we forgo our advantages in war to chance their OBOR and CPEC failing? OBOR and CPEC are their opening shots in based on their advantages in economy and industry.

No, I rather we kick their arses militarily in overwhelming fashion.

[pankajs]

OBOR and CPEC are last flailing effort to prop up their economy from sliding. It is not going to succeed because the countries that are the recipient don't have the capacity to absorb the trade. Case in point is Sri Lanka. Bakistan is soon [say 5 years] going on that list *officially*.

There are only 3 economic *areas* that can absorb China's over capacity without keeling over and they are US, Europe and India. US and Europe markets are saturated and India is the only market left that can absorb any kind of inflows. CPEC and OBOR will fall under its own weight and take China down with it. It is the reason why China was/is so keen for India to join OBOR.

In a sense CPEC and OBOR is China EXPORTING its ghost city / road to nowhere. Just like Enron was able to make its balance sheet look good by parking its troubled assets/deals outside this too will help China look good in the short term by offshoring its troubled capacity but it will catch up in not too distant future.

[TKiran]

And you are suggesting we forgo our advantages in war to chance their OBOR and CPEC failing? OBOR and CPEC are their opening shots in based on their advantages in economy and industry.

No, I rather we kick their arses militarily in overwhelming fashion.

But పాపం has to పండాలి. no? The ball is in their court. My gut feeling is that they will choose to fight and we are going to clip them to size.

Be patient, your wish will be fulfilled soon.

[Iyersan]

And you are suggesting we forgo our advantages in war to chance their OBOR and CPEC failing? OBOR and CPEC are their opening shots in based on their advantages in economy and industry.

No, I rather we kick their arses militarily in overwhelming fashion.

But పాపం has to పండాలి. no? The ball is in their court. My gut feeling is that they will choose to fight and we are going to clip them to size.

Be patient, your wish will be fulfilled soon.

The nation of traders wont fight. Its all fart and no shit

[chola]

OBOR and CPEC are last flailing effort to prop up their economy from sliding.

Again, hope is not really a strategy.

[pankajs]

Hope is not a strategy but patience is.

We wait and let them disburse their largess and in 10 year we watch them try collecting on the dues. It will be fun when all such countries cancel the loan with a stroke of the pen at once.

[chola]

But పాపం has to పండాలి. no? The ball is in their court. My gut feeling is that they will choose to fight and we are going to clip them to size.

Be patient, your wish will be fulfilled soon.

The nation of traders wont fight. Its all fart and no shit

Yes, the fact they won't re-enforce their numbers doesn't sound like SYREs is doing anything other than farting.

We shouldn't have to smell this stink without beating their arses black and blue (or purple and green when mixed with yellow.)

[Arjun]

Arjun-ji, pardon me for my previous language, but every country has its strengths and weaknesses.

When competing whether in business, sports or geo-politics, why would you ever play to your opponent's strengths?

Cheen's strengths are its economy and its industry. Its weakness is its SYRE non-warrior culture and single-child little emperor-filled army that hasn't fought in decades.

Guess what we should do when presented with an opportunity like Doka La?

My conclusion is the same as yours but the logic I would use is different.

Your argument makes it look like India is losing out to China economically, and therefore a 'jealous' India is taking revenge in the military sphere.

Nothing can be further from the truth than that. I am not concerned about India losing out economically to China...India can very much take China on that front and the overtaking in GDP growth terms has already commenced (leave aside the numbers for last quarter which were down due to one-time effect of demonetization).

The reason India needs retribution is more due to China's jealousy in trying to hamper India's growth through proxies such as Pakistan, blocking NSG membership & abetting terror against India. That simply cannot be tolerated - and if giving China a bloody nose is the only way to stop it that is what it will have to be.

As far as China's SYRE culture - I will need to understand that better. Are the soldiers on the Tibetan front Han or Tibetan (which would be even worse for China)? India may like to portray an SDRE culture - but the fact is it is not homogenous unlike China. There are many many martial communities within India that contributed heavily to the might of the British empire as also to the Allied powers being victors in WW1 and WW2 - and of course to our victories since then.

[asgkhan]

I think too much attention is given on the so called hidden gestures and intimidation tactics of these commie thugs. I am tired of reading about '$hitting Tigers, Pee!ng Dragons'.

Get the equipment required ASAP.
Have enough troops to outnumber these uneducated red book 4nicating idiots.
Build infra pronto.

The cheeni morons are thugs and bullies. They understand only one language, a size 10 boot up their teeny a$$.

[Philip]

Our MEA statement should not read as a subtle capitulation,as if we are afeared of a border clash/war. This path results in ultimate defeat.
Our statement should've been worded that we would be ready at any time for talks "once the Chinese withdrew their troops..."
A far stronger message would be for India to send a high-level dignitary,such as the erudite Dr.Sub.Swamy,former Foreign Min.,to Taipei for a short 'holiday" The ants would be quickly crawling up XI Gins' nether end!

Secondly,the anti-Chinese goods movement in India has been truly pathetic. Where are those great protectors of cows,moral police,etc.,when the very nation is threatened by a hostile brutal,bully of a neighbour who has a $50B trade surplus with India?
While we've been discussing with friends and sending SMS messages,etc.,there is no united national campaign for the same. MSY (for political reasons no doubt),has been the only parliamentarian to hit out at the Chinese and call "a spade a spade" reg. the status of Tibet,etc. Instead, our MPs and MLAs-TN, demand higher salaries while farmers commit suicide and care a damn about countering and combating China

[chola]

Arjun-ji, pardon me for my previous language, but every country has its strengths and weaknesses.

When competing whether in business, sports or geo-politics, why would you ever play to your opponent's strengths?

Cheen's strengths are its economy and its industry. Its weakness is its SYRE non-warrior culture and single-child little emperor-filled army that hasn't fought in decades.

Guess what we should do when presented with an opportunity like Doka La?

My conclusion is the same as yours but the logic I would use is different.

Your argument makes it look like India is losing out to China economically, and therefore a 'jealous' India is taking revenge in the military sphere.

Nothing can be further from the truth than that. I am not concerned about India losing out economically to China...India can very much take China on that front and the overtaking in GDP growth terms has already commenced (leave aside the numbers for last quarter which were down due to one-time effect of demonetization).

The reason India needs retribution is more due to China's jealousy in trying to hamper India's growth through proxies such as Pakistan, blocking NSG membership & abetting terror against India. That simply cannot be tolerated - and if giving China a bloody nose is the only way to stop it that is what it will have to be.

As far as China's SYRE culture - I will need to understand that better. Are the soldiers on the Tibetan front Han or Tibetan (which would be even worse for China)? India may like to portray an SDRE culture - but the fact is it is not homogenous unlike China. There are many many martial communities within India that contributed heavily to the might of the British empire as also to the Allied powers being victors in WW1 and WW2 - and of course to our victories since then.

Jealousy?! Why the hell should that even matter in geo-politics?

There is constant competition between nations. Most of the time we compete during peace time. In rare and extreme circumstances we get the chance to compete kinetically in war.

We are now presented with a rare opportunity to go to war with a beatable opponent that can advance our great power status.

Okay, don't think too deeply about this and make conclusion on psycho-babble/mindreading shit like "jealousy" and "racial inferiority."

Just think this -- we need to beat yellow arses because they fvcking threatened to go to war with us. We should not have to wait for them to punch us before putting our foot up their collective arses.

[Marten]

Arjun-ji, pardon me for my previous language, but every country has its strengths and weaknesses.

When competing whether in business, sports or geo-politics, why would you ever play to your opponent's strengths?

Cheen's strengths are its economy and its industry. Its weakness is its SYRE non-warrior culture and single-child little emperor-filled army that hasn't fought in decades.

Guess what we should do when presented with an opportunity like Doka La?

India may like to portray an SDRE culture - but the fact is it is not homogenous unlike China. There are many many martial communities within India that contributed heavily to the might of the British empire as also to the Allied powers being victors in WW1 and WW2 - and of course to our victories since then.

Sir, just a nitpick. The SDRE term itself is a jibe at the sel-proclaimed martially superior Bakis. Why do we believe any martial community in specific has more warrior-like abilities as opposed to the generic SDREs? All of us are martial, which explains why we fight so often.

[Prasad]

Aside from all the war talk, are we giving the chinese a face-saving exit option? If we both withdraw and then "talk", what do we lose? The "talks" will then have to be monitored to ensure we don't give away anything like we're some Maharaja, able to give away a golden chain.

For all we know, local dispositions might be opaque to all but a few higherups. What do we extract from the chinese if they agree to a mutual climbdown? A written undertaking to not do any more construction in that region and respect Bhutan? Will they be any less paki than the pakis and renege as soon as we withdraw and attempt to takeover that land as soon as we withdraw? Can we take them at their word? No.

+1 to Philip's comment.You withdraw and then we'll talk it should be.