Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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nam
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by nam »

panduranghari wrote:
Karan M wrote:India should first and foremost start imposing heavy punitive tarriffs on Chinese goods into India. As long as $60Bn trade imbalance exists, all this is high farce. That's 3 MMRCA deals @100 aircraft each, per year.
The first thing we must do before this is withdraw from WTO. If we do things without withdrawing, WTO can impose punitive sanctions on us and as we are already members, we will have to pay. Withdrawal from all these western institutions will permit us to negotiate independently with other countries and if they want a market, they will negotiate.
We dont have to. There are lot of other ways to do it. Chinese can export, but they cannot force us to buy!

It is very simple .Set our famous custom boys on goods from China and let it rot in harbour as part of "paper work". Indirectly force Indian importers to default on payment, spread rumours like Chinese phones extract personal data and potentially money from the bank accounts etc etc...

We just need to show some kaminapan .. all with the rules.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by sanjaykumar »

http://www.dailyo.in/politics/china-pak ... 18518.html


We really do not want a naval war with China. It would be costly to defend a place like the Spratly Islands. But we can send China a devastating message by strengthening the Indian Navy. An Indian Navy that has the capability of delivering nuclear weapons would cause China great concern.

In fact, if we actually outfitted the Indian Navy with nuclear weapons, China might back down from its antagonistic stance in the region.


I am not sure what Larry Pressler is referring to here, India does not need the US to furnish it nuclear weapons. Unless he means help with ABM systems aboard ships, command and control, satellite reconnaissance and integration.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Marten »

Right on cue, CAG and Toilet combine to poop on our heads. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 704674.cms.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by g.sarkar »

http://www.oneindia.com/india/gorkhalan ... 96524.html
Gorkhaland agitation: Is China behind Darjeeling unrest too?
Darjeeling, July 17: After Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Mehbooba Mufti during her recent trip to the national capital told the media that China is also fueling the unrest in the Valley, her West Bengal counterpart Mamata Banerjee too has expressed similar fear of "Chinese hand" in the ongoing turmoil in the hills of Darjeeling. Since June 8, the hills of Bengal have been hit hard by the Gorkhaland agitation, demanding a separate state for the Gorkhas of Darjeeling and the neighbouring areas.
The latest round of Gorkhaland movement has been led by the Gorkha Janmukti Morcha (GJM). The agitation has the support of all the pro-Gorkhaland parties. The situation in the hills of Bengal has become a major concern for both the state and the central governments as the indefinite bandh called by the pro-Gorkhaland parties is showing no sign of ending. The bandh has entered the 33rd day on Monday.
.....
Didi hunts with the hounds and runs with the hare. Fear of the BJP and the fear of the Chinese, yet visiting the Chinese on the sly.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by ChandraV »

williams wrote:
phillydesi wrote: My question is: is this the current ground reality? Has India lost Karakoram Pass? Is that no longer an agreed/accepted boundary meeting point between China and India, similar to how so many other mountain passes are along the LAC?
Not really. From DBO ALG, Karakoram Pass is 15 km away and patrols go all the way where the Chinese road ends. DBO ALG and south of DBO ALG have permanent ITBP camps. We also have dominant control of the Eastern part of Siachen Glacier (lot of people think our focus in Siachen is only on the western side). Problem in that area is we have treacherous mountains with poor road infrastructure. BRO is building all weather road from Sasoma to Murgo and then from Murgo to DBO. Current govt has made this road a priority and by 2018-19 we should have good road link. IAF have good airlift capacity to maintain robust supply line and it kind of quadrupled after acquisition of heavy lift C130 transports. However we have been acting a bit timid and that has given the wrong idea to the Chinese and hence these kind of puny behaviour. In most cases we have thwarted these advances. Road infrastructure on the Chinese side are better because the terrain that side is better. However thanks to the tireless work done by our armed forces, we are much better off today and well prepared.
Thanks. That's good to know that IA and ITBP still command the access road to Karakoram Pass and that they in fact still patrol all the way up to that point. That is the northern terminus of the India-China LAC on a traditional basis, but I was pretty sure that after the Depsang Plains/DBO standoff, that the Chinese had blocked off Indian patrolling access to it north of the Chip Chap River.

The Sasoma-to-Murgo, and Murgo-to-DBO road really is strategic necessity and I'm glad to know it's being hardened from just a dirt track.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Singha »

Dont know if idea is Job creation for locals but i see lot pf videos with village people incl women breaking rocks by hand for brdo roads . Would not machines do far more?
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by SBajwa »

by Phillydesi

We also have dominant control of the Eastern part of Siachen Glacier (lot of people think our focus in Siachen is only on the western side).
Check google maps they show DBO in Pakistan!
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by rsingh »

Marten wrote:
AdityaM wrote:
Depends on composition of PLA soldiers used against India.

If they use Tibetans as canon fodder, then they don't care for distraught families. Plus Tibetans will consider IA as enemy instead.
Why will Tibetans want to fight India when they can turn around and help give their real Oppressors a bloody nose? Do you really think the locals will not lend a hand to IA whenever we roll into Lhasa?
Why there was Sikh regiment fighting for Brits during Jalianwala bagh.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Rudradev »

Hmmm. Didn't Abdul Batshit meet with Luo Zhaohui just yesterday?

Looks like the ratcheting-up is coming from two directions (and by two distinct methods) now.

1) From China with words and posturing (shrill editorials, live-fire exercises, fake news, activating proxies in Indian media and political parties, etc.)
2) From Bakis with increased artillery shelling and heightened BAT operations on LoC (despite the heavy drubbing they receive every time they provoke an incident).

The Chinaman won't raise a fist, but his dog is snapping its teeth at our ankles (obviously on command).

Internally, there will be noises from the usual suspects (Pravin Swampy, Shook-law etc.) to the effect that increased "tit-for-tat" shelling sprees on LoC are heavily draining our war reserves, so better pull back from confronting Cheen, etc.

I trust MAD will stand firm and not blink.

Originally posted by Falijee ji on TSP thread:

Jammu and Kashmir: 9-year-old girl, army jawan killed as Pakistan 'initiates' heavy shelling on LoC
An Army jawan and a nine-year-old girl were killed while three persons injured in heavy firing and mortar shelling by the Pakistan Army along the LoC in Poonch and Rajouri districts of Jammu and Kashmir on Monday.
There were 23 incidents of ceasefire violation, one Border Action Team (BAT) attack and two infiltration bids by Pakistan in June in which four people, including three jawans, were killed and 12 injured.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by UlanBatori »

I wonder what happens if the next time Pakis start an artillery barrage, there is no response at all. Unless there is the ability to target the artillery pieces that are firing, or there are plenty of pre-decided targets, what is the point of "returning fire"? So don't respond, one time. Will drive them crazy.

Then hit deep where they don't expect, of course. sounds EZ, I know, but I wish there was some really really deep hit on the Pakis, like converting downtown Muzzafarbad, for 1 km radius around Salahuddin's last known residence, into a parking lot.

Now I remember why I came here. To post latest BC rant.

> http://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/d ... AykDL.html
>
> Doklam standoff: India must be ready to give China a real bloody nose
> India-China border row: Beijing is currently waging full-throttle psychological warfare over Doklam to tame India. Deception and mendacity are its tools. If India gives in, it will endure strategic subordination and ignominy forever.
>
> The current troop standoff with China at Doklam offers India important lessons that go far beyond the Chinese intrusion into this Bhutanese plateau. Unless India grasps the long-term threat posed by an increasingly muscular China and responds with an appropriate counter-strategy, it is sure to confront much bigger problems than Doklam. Unfortunately, institutional memory in India tends to be short, with a mindset of immediacy blurring the bigger picture.
>
> For example, Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Mehbooba Mufti’s recent statement that China is “meddling” in her state was seen as signifying a new trend. In truth, China — occupying a fifth of the original princely state of J&K and now enlarging its strategic footprint in Pakistan-occupied J&K — has long been playing the Kashmir card against India. In 2010 it honed that card by aggressively adopting a stapled-visa policy for J&K residents.
>
> To mount pressure, Beijing has tacitly questioned India’s sovereignty over the 45% of J&K under Indian control and officially shortened the length of the Himalayan border it shares with India by purging the 1,597-kilometre line separating Indian J&K from Chinese-held J&K. China’s Kashmir interference will only increase as a result of its so-called economic corridor through Pakistan-held J&K, where Chinese military presence is growing, including near Pakistan’s ceasefire line with India. India now faces Chinese troops on both flanks of its portion of J&K.
>
> China, which fomented the Naga and Mizo insurgencies, taught its “all weather” client Pakistan how to wage proxy war against India. China still fans flames in India’s northeast. For example, Paresh Barua, the long-time fugitive commander-in-chief of ULFA, has been traced to Ruili, in China’s Yunnan province. Some other Indian insurgent leaders have been ensconced in Myanmar’s Yunnan-bordering region controlled by the China-backed Kachin Independence Army. This newspaper reported in 2015 that Chinese intelligence played “an active role” in assisting nine northeast Indian insurgent groups to form a united front. The illicit flow of Chinese arms to India, including to Maoists, was confirmed by Home Secretary G.K. Pillai in 2010. Meanwhile, the deepening China-Pakistan nexus presents India with a two-front theatre in the event of a war with either country.
>
> Read more
>
> China’s strategy is to subdue India by attacking its weak points, striking where it is unprepared, and stymieing its rise to the extent possible. As part of this strategy, it is waging a multipronged unconventional war without firing a single shot. It is closing in on India from multiple flanks, extending from Nepal to the Indian Ocean.
>
> Sixty-six years after gobbling up buffer Tibet and mounting a Himalayan threat, China — with the world’s fastest-growing submarine fleet — is opening a threat from the seas against India. Its recently opened naval base in Djibouti, at the Indian Ocean’s north-western edge, constitutes just a first step in its game plan to dominate the region. For India, whose energy and strategic infrastructure is concentrated along a vulnerable, 7,600-kilometre coastline, this represents a tectonic shift in its threat calculus.
>
> Add to the picture China’s economic warfare to undermine India’s strength in various ways, including stifling its manufacturing capability through large-scale dumping of goods. Artificially low prices of Chinese products also translate into India losing billions of dollars yearly in customs duties and tax revenue. Portentously, China, including Hong Kong, made up 22% of India’s imports in 2015, with the US just at 5% and Japan at 2%.
>
> Yet India has yet to fully shed its policy blinkers. As India repeats the same old platitudes about conciliation and cooperation, China is making clear that there cannot be “two Suns in the sky” — or, as a Chinese idiom goes, “one mountain cannot accommodate two tigers”. With its rekindled, atavistic nationalism, China plainly wants to be Asia’s sole tiger.
>
> Beijing is currently waging full-throttle psychological warfare over Doklam to tame India. Deception and mendacity are its tools. If India gives in, it will endure strategic subordination and ignominy forever. Foreign Minister Sushma Swaraj’s excellent rebuttal in Parliament of Chinese disinformation begs the question: Why has India been so slow in countering Beijing’s propaganda war?
>
> New Delhi must play psychological hardball: Instead of appearing zealous for talks, it should insist that China first withdraw both its troops and preconditions, while leaving Beijing in no doubt that India will hold its ground, come what may. If India is to stop China’s creeping, covert encroachments and secure Himalayan peace, it must be ready to give Beijing a real bloody nose if it escalates the standoff to a conflict. Humiliating China even in a localised military engagement, in 1967 style, is vital to help destabilise its expansionist regime.
>
> Brahma Chellaney is a geostrategist and author.
>
> The views expressed are personal
This "bloody nose" terminology has to stop. But I do hope to read that an Indian force suddenly appears deep inside Aksai Chin, dynamiting roads and rail lines and cutting off the PLA forces. There is no "standoff" if it's all Chinese invasion, India ever stepping back a bit each time.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Mort Walker »

What we are seeing now is the cost of strategic neglect by successive governments. If today there an additional 400 LCA, 1000 extra pieces of 155mm guns, and 500 additional Arjuns - it would have made this situation much easier to handle.

My guess is that eventually the IA will withdraw from Dok La given the strategic constraints. The argument will be made to fight another day and then everyone goes back to sleep dreaming of the next 5th gen. fighter aircraft.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Sanju »

^Here we go dhothi shivering again...
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Mort Walker »

There's no dhoti shivering. Strategic neglect is apparent. The last 15 years or so there was no real promotion of domestic arms production.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Rudradev »

SSridhar wrote:I think that it is also time for India to go shriller on CPEC passing through sovereign Indian territory currently under Pakistani occupation.

China's words and comments may be hilarious at times and they may be shooting-at-their-own-feet most of the times (and when cornered, they offer no explanation), but their actions are hardly made on an impulse and hardly not well thought-through.

Usually, they have multiple aims so that at least a few would succeed. One technique is that they claim your territories and then 'concede' in one place asking you to reciprocate in the other place where they are vitally interested. In Bhutan as well, they claim Bhutanese territory elsewhere (up north), which they are willing to barter for, Dokalam plateau in West Bhutan, for example.

But, Doka La is another case altogether. Among the aims of China that I can think of in the present stand-off are:
  • Drive a wedge between Bhutan & India
  • Fortify a claim for territory that is not China's
  • Threaten a small state like Bhutan directly
  • If a 'threatened' India surrenders, a strategic piece of real-estate is acquired for a future use against it
  • Displace India incrementally from heights disadvantageous to China in the tri-junction area
  • Probe the Indian resolve
  • Retaliate against India over its OBOR stand which significantly dented its image in the May BRI Conference
  • Convey to other nations, especially US,Japan & ASEAN, that China pursues vigorously its territorial claims and is not afraid to use appropriate means against any country
  • Expose the 'fragility' of the emerging informal alliance in Asia and show up to nations that it is better to hitch with Chinese imperialism than the US


But, there could be also another aim which is to justify Chinese intervention in case of a future war between India & Pakistan. This was openly hinted at by a Global Times analyst (though we discount the usual frothing-at-mouth-corners type of analysts that Global Times employs). A few days later, China's Foreign office 'offered' its good offices to sort out differences between India & Pakistan. Since 1962, China has been toying with the idea of generating some noise at India's eastern borders whenever Pakistan attacked on the western borders. Though it was not significant and the Chinese have been more circumspect on the ground than in the media, the fact remains that they do entertain such a thought.

Now, Pakistan has become a Chinese province (or 'protectorate' according to how one sees it). The CPEC is the template for and the most critical component of OBOR, for the success of both land and sea corridors. Xi has staked personally on this. China wants Gwadar badly and the hinterland route to it from Kashgar. He is getting doubts whether India would let that happen, through its possible covert (sabotage) & overt (war) actions as India has firmly opposed this. He wants to be ready to intervene if India attacks G&B. He is preparing the ground and would use this stand-off to gain concessions from Pakistan citing possible risks that China could not allow. Pakistan may even enter into a special agreement to give China a status similar to what India enjoys with Bhutan.


Xi is also tightening his noose around the Politburo, dismissing a 'Wen Jiabao' faction member from the highest governing council two days back. The upcoming CPC Congress is important because many posts would need to be filled up and Xi would naturally stuff his supporters in. He would ratchet up nationalism in the run up to the Congress, a usual Chinese tactic. He would therefore like the decibel-level of the rhetoric to go up a few notches. He would be glad if GoI reacts because that would give him an opportunity to raise the heat further. But, he would be careful not to go to war because it may spin out of his control as India can effectively counterpunch in a limited engagement. That would be the end of Xi's 'China dreams'. There are too many knives out for him within the Party & PLA.
Fascinating perspective as always from SSridhar garu.

The bolded statements (the last item on the bullet list, and the next two paragraphs) are particularly thought-provoking.

In essence:
1) There is a competition between the US and China for geopolitical influence, particularly in Asia, as we all know.

2) The new player that has entered the ring is India. In our immediate neighbourhood, we have begun to assert our role as a third player also competing against China for influence (in Nepal, BD, SL, Myanmar, and Bhutan).

3) The current focus of this three-way contest is to establish who is the most reliable senior partner/protector for lesser powers to enter into subsidiary alliances with.

4) In the case of Bhutan, India has proved itself more a assertive ally than at any time in the past. If Xi thought he could accomplish the triple goals of (a) creating a Bhutan-India divide, (b) keeping other nations away from Indian influence by proving that India was a meekly submissive weak state, (c) grabbing a piece of land that could be strategically useful against India in future... he has failed on all three counts. Note he HAS FAILED. There is not one good move left to him in Doklam... hence all the sound and fury in the Chinese Media, because that is all they have.

5) In terms of Pakistan, China has already emerged as the protector-in-chief (with CPEC, etc.) Meanwhile the US seems to have continued the late Obama-era policy of steadily pulling back from its role as a sponsor of Pakistan. Today the Pentagon yet again put the brakes on military aid $$ to Pakistan, something we saw Ashton Carter do many times before, but has now been authorized by James Mattis for the first time. So Pakis are more exclusively dependent on China than at any time before.

6) Xi sees that he has failed at the goals outlined in (4). Now, to best equip himself for political success at the CPC Conference later this year, he must quickly change his declared target and maximize perceived gains with a different set of goals. The lowest hanging fruit is Pakistan, which is also the home of his showcase project CPEC.

7) Xi has three potential targets in Pakistan. All will increase his prestige as President of PRC to one extent or another, and all will seek to "punish" India to some extent for our tough stand in Doklam. However, depending on the path he chooses, the benefits accruing to him will range from the cosmetic to the profound. Meanwhile the risks will correspondingly increase from current (status-quo), to sharp repercussions on the India-China trade front, to military conflict and nuclear exchange with India.
(A) He can go for the easiest, safest route: as SSridhar ji suggests, get Pakistan to make the protectorate relationship with China official. Also, get Pakistan to officially declare all of G&B and PoJK as integral Pakistani territory, and hence as Chinese protectorate territory where the PLA can be deployed to "defend against invasion".
(B) He can go for the intermediate route: Do all of (A) and also throw the full weight of China openly behind the separatist movement in Indian J&K, as well as multiple other secessionist movements in India wherever possible. In terms of direct material support, funding, diplomatic support
(C) He can take the most risky route: Do all of (A) and (B), plus attempt to provoke an all-out conflict wherein Pakistan and China militarily attempt to sever all of J&K, permanently, from India.

Here is the question I would like to ask fellow forumites. If you were Xi Jinping, which path would you take and WHY?
Last edited by Rudradev on 22 Jul 2017 02:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Mort Walker »

Various governments dragged their feet on procuring the C-17 before production was shut down. Now just the last one is being delivered when the IAF needed at least 5 more. We're seeing shenanigans with the Pilatus trainer on spares. A domestic trainer was more preferable, but you can't get forex bribes with Make in India.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by ramana »

D) Sever North East from India via Doklam to Chicken Neck.

XI has played his own version of Operation Grand Slam by covert road building aggression to present a fait acompli in Bhutan.

This India forestalled.

Another thing to think is was this to prevent India moving to support Balochistan?
I don't think so as this road building was from 2014 circa.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by ashish raval »

China will not attack India from position of a disadvantage. Despite road and rail infrastructure being build in mountain it only takes few bunker buster bombs to make the roads and railways untenable and in situation which you are an stressor who fails to move forward any territory lost will mean civilian rebellian in China, Hong Kong etc. At best they will bid for pukes to do their bidding for a while. The only way to sustain movement in mountains is tunnel infrastructure which Chinese have not developed so as I believe.

Let dogs bark as long as we have munitions and boots and world opinion on our side China will not want to act aggressive at the time when most people are pissed of with them and NoKo. Final destination may scalp NoKo rather than Iran first..time to make Buddha similar again with anti satellite test and testing neutron bomb this time..strapped inside an artillery shell to send shivers down the spine of two terrorist nations of Asia..
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Rudradev »

ramana wrote:D) Sever North East from India via Doklam to Chicken Neck.

XI has played his own version of Operation Grand Slam by covert road building aggression to present a fait acompli in Bhutan.

This India forestalled.

Another thing to think is was this to prevent India moving to support Balochistan?
I don't think so as this road building was from 2014 circa.
Maybe Ramana garu, but could they ever hope to make it stick?

Even if enough PLA forces are built up and enough PLA stand-off weapons are fired to throw IA out of Doklam, overwhelm IA in Sikkim and push into Siliguri corridor. For a few hours it may actually look like they have "severed North East from India via Chicken Neck". Fine. What will they do then?

XXXIII Corps HQ is right there in Siliguri. If reserves are needed XVII Corps (Panagarh) and 23rd ID will close in from the west, III Corps (Dimapur) and IV Corps (Tezpur) from the east. All the air power advantage will be ours, between major IAF bases in Bareilly, Tezpur and Chabua.

Where will they get reserves from? How will they maintain logistics? We can interdict their one slender trans-Himalayan line for supplies and reinforcements, cut them off and massacre them.

This will not suit any of Xi's aims as outlined in my post above. Unless I am missing something major.

I think PRC has realised that the entire situation in Eastern Himalayas is unwinnable for them. So they WILL activate Pakis and try to maximize gains in the Western theatre instead. The question is, what level of gains will they make a gambit for... and how much risk are they willing to countenance.

A) Seal up Pakistan as official PRC protectorate and officially back Pak claim on all of J&K... occupying Gilgit Baltistan and POK with PLA.
B ) Do the above plus activate full-on proxy war in J&K
C) Do the above plus coordinate a military invasion of J&K by PLA and Pak armed forces.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by SSridhar »

Trade deadlock with US dims China's hopes for support on Doklam stand-off - Saibal Dasgupta, ToI

I don't think the two are related.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by ChandraV »

Looking on Google Maps from the U.S., only a few mountain tracks into Bhutanese and Indian territory show up-- although if this article is taken for its word, then China has been firming up its grip on Dokalam Plateau for going on 10 years now.

Why the heck has the Bhutanese (and Indian) military command been so lethargic and inactive? Why is this the summer of discontent?

http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 324045.ece

"“Although Doklam has always been part of China, its total control of the area, according to some information, began only after 2007. Before that it was controlled by Bhutan. And this is the reality,” says the post.

The article then explains that though Doklam legally belonged to China, following the 1890 convention between Britain and China, the area was generally inaccessible. “It was like a no man’s land, where China did not exercise actual control. Later on, Bhutan set up watchtowers in the Doklam area and had the actual control.”

The blog says that in 2007, China destroyed two seasonal watchtowers set up by Bhutan. Seven years later, it set up the Zhecaochang watchtower, following two years of construction, on the base of the two destroyed Bhutanese watch towers.

Explaining the timing of the on-going standoff, the blog says “this time the very last section of road connecting to Zhecaochang watchtower was supposed to be finished.”

Besides, the possible destruction of two Indian watchtowers by China may have fueled New Delhi’s ire. “In combination with previous reports, it is possible that India had two watchtowers that were very close to the road. The People’s Liberation Army (PLA) destroyed these two watchtowers in order to achieve the eventual completion of the road. That is why India became really unhappy.”


On google maps, there is a feature in the southern/middle portion of Doklam area that is labeled "Donglang Caochang". Is this the "watchtower", on some ridge? Which would mean that the road construction has been going on for miles now...leading all the way back to Yadong in the chumbi valley's southern reaches?

So once again, if that's the case, then the Chinese have managed to not just build some track but a motorable road miles into another country's territory without so much as a whimper. Already happened in Depsang Plains area. Now here, in Bhutan.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by ramana »

Now Chindu trawls WeChat blogs to bolster China position against India.
Look at the road pictures that Shiv posted, do they look like something to support a watchtower?
Moron presstitute.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by g.sarkar »

http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opi ... its-global
How India border stand-off gives China a chance to burnish its global image
Jerome A. Cohen and Peter A. Dutton call on Beijing and New Delhi to seek impartial arbitration to resolve their problem. After its heavy-handedness in the South China Sea, the latest row offers China a fresh chance to show respect for international law
For the past month, there has been a tense stand-off between China and India in the tri-border Himalayan region that ­includes Bhutan. Troubles began when China resumed building a road on the Doklam Plateau, which is disputed between Bhutan and China. India, because of its own security interests and as Bhutan’s security guarantor, stepped in to defend the position of the kingdom. China now claims India has invaded “its” territory. Tensions are high, and more than a few commentators have suggested this may be the most serious Sino-Indian ­border crisis since their 1962 war.
Many possibilities have been advanced for ­Beijing’s motive to stir up trouble. Some suggest ­Beijing seeks to peel Bhutan from India’s orbit. ­Others believe China seeks to take tactically useful high ground from which to threaten a narrow pass connecting to India’s eastern territories. Others focus on domestic Chinese political-military motivations ahead of the 19th Communist Party Congress. Another possibility is that China may be using the tension to create leverage in advance of border ­dispute negotiations. But why provoke India now?
It is important to remember that President Xi ­Jinping (習近平) undoubtedly wants to demonstrate to the upcoming party congress that he has a plan to make his bold foreign policy undertaking, the “Belt and Road Initiative”, a success. The long-term problem Xi faces is that both the maritime “Road” and the overland “Belt” are vulnerable to Indian interference. Thus, the future of the initiative relies heavily on Indian cooperation, or at least non-interference.
What does China have to offer India in return for its important acquiescence? Perhaps Xi created serious border tensions in order to bring India to the negotiating table, where China could offer a settled land border on terms favourable – but not too favourable – to Indian security. There is precedence in China’s negotiating approach with Vietnam ahead of finalising their land border in 2009. Indeed, unlike its thousands of miles of disputed maritime borders with eight other states, Beijing has in fact successfully negotiated nearly all its land border disputes, sometimes explicitly invoking relevant international law. Stark exceptions are China’s still-disputed borders with India and Bhutan.
Yet, almost seven decades of experience suggests that prospects for successful Sino-Indian border negotiations are not bright, and the current military confrontation might lead to actual armed conflict between two nuclear powers.To avoid such a dangerous development, both Beijing and New Delhi should consider the time ripe for impartial arbitration or adjudication to resolve the problem. This would be a much less dangerous way than military provocations to achieve the “peaceful dispute resolution” that Beijing so vociferously endorses. Moreover, resorting to an independent international tribunal would go a long way towards repairing the damage to Beijing’s reputation caused by its refusal to accept the outcome of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea arbitration brought against it by the Philippines over disputes in the South China Sea.
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Gautam
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by g.sarkar »

http://www.atimes.com/article/pragmatis ... -standoff/
Pragmatism likely to prevail in India-China border standoff
The two neighbors will discuss the border situation at the BRICS national security advisers’ meeting to be held in China from July 26-27
hinese media’s anti-India rhetoric over the last few weeks – since the beginning of the India-China standoff at the Dokalam area of the China-India-Bhutan tri-junction, in Sikkim, on June 16 – is quite unprecedented.
Amid heated verbal exchanges, Indian media have warned too of the possibility of a conflict. However, New Delhi has made to two smart moves to cool tempers.
Firstly, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had an informal meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping on the sidelines of the G20 Summit in Hamburg, Germany, on July 7. While Xi hailed Modi for India’s economic growth and its fight against terrorism, Modi acknowledged the progress made by the BRICS bloc under the leadership of Xi.
Then, on July 11, Indian foreign secretary S Jaishankar said in Singapore that although differences may crop up from time to time between India and China, such issues had been sorted out through diplomacy in the past. He hoped the present stand-off too could be resolved that way.
At a briefing late on Friday, the Indian government told opposition party leaders that the border standoff would be resolved through talks. Back-channel diplomacy has already begun. India’s National Security Adviser Ajith Doval will discuss border disputes at a BRICS national security advisers’ meeting in China from July 26-27.
A long standoff with India would be an unwanted headache for China, which is due to host the ninth BRICS summit, in Xiamen, in September. The likelihood of India and China agreeing to withdraw troops from the dispute area soon is growing.
Deep distrust
Although India is confident in its position at Dokalam, China may also challenge it elsewhere, such as at Tawang, along the Arunachal border, which China considers as southern Tibet.
India’s move to ignore China’s requests and allow spiritual Tibetan leader Dalai Lama to visit Tawang in Arunachal in April this year angered Beijing. Further, India boycotted China’s Belt and Road summit in Beijing over sovereignty concerns. China was likely just waiting for an opportunity to flex its muscles.
While diplomacy may resolve the Sikkim border standoff, there is deep distrust between the two Asian giants.
From India’s standpoint, China is blocking its entry into the Nuclear Suppliers’ Group and foiling its attempts to make the UN declare Masood Azhar, the chief of Pakistan-based Jaish-e-Mohammed, a terrorist. The China-Pakistan Economic Corridor running through Pakistan-occupied Kashmir is another matter of concern for India and one that influenced its decision to skip the BRI summit.
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Gautam
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Rudradev »

g.sarkar wrote:
http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opi ... its-global
How India border stand-off gives China a chance to burnish its global image
Jerome A. Cohen and Peter A. Dutton call on Beijing and New Delhi to seek impartial arbitration to resolve their problem.


...But why provoke India now?
It is important to remember that President Xi ­Jinping (習近平) undoubtedly wants to demonstrate to the upcoming party congress that he has a plan to make his bold foreign policy undertaking, the “Belt and Road Initiative”, a success. The long-term problem Xi faces is that both the maritime “Road” and the overland “Belt” are vulnerable to Indian interference. Thus, the future of the initiative relies heavily on Indian cooperation, or at least non-interference.
What does China have to offer India in return for its important acquiescence? Perhaps Xi created serious border tensions in order to bring India to the negotiating table, where China could offer a settled land border on terms favourable – but not too favourable – to Indian security. There is precedence in China’s negotiating approach with Vietnam ahead of finalising their land border in 2009. Indeed, unlike its thousands of miles of disputed maritime borders with eight other states, Beijing has in fact successfully negotiated nearly all its land border disputes, sometimes explicitly invoking relevant international law. Stark exceptions are China’s still-disputed borders with India and Bhutan.
.
......
Gautam
this is a paid piece sponsored not by the CCP or PLA but by the Xi faction to try and make Xi look smart after a dumb gamble. Basically it is Xi saying "I am not a Musharraf. I am tactically brilliant"
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Arjun »

That the Dokalam faceoff was somehow connected to CPEC / BRI has been broached by SSridhar on this forum sometime back...

If that is indeed the case - what should the Indian response be ? There can be no question of India acquiescing to any Chinese initiative on territory that India claims and therefore the Indian sword hanging over CPEC cannot be withdrawn.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by krisna »

A few points to note wrt china-
one child policy is basically for mainland hans and not to minorities including Tibetans and muslims and others.The minorities have 3 times the growth of population relative to hans. But due to tiny population, hardly an issue.
New born Tibetans for over few decades are brainwashed in Tibet by communism etc. expect some Tibetans to battle for china not necessarily for Tibet freedom. Please don't expect all local Tibetans to fight against china/or support India.

Had posted articles on the above before corruption of BRF website occurred. will try to get them. :(( :evil:
------------------------------

This simple standing up to a smaller neighbor like Bhutan will send positive signals to other countries and negative vibes to china. Will definitely not be liked by china- hence all the more for china to behave like a rabid dog to undo this show of Indian resistance. Might be a domino effect.

probably a test of patience- who will blink first. simply bolstering the defence forces strength is enough to deter aggression unless china does something stupid.

-----------------------------------------------
About china H&D, china may not necessarily be worried about greatly-- they have had loss of face during eleven visit to India when India did not blink regarding border skirmishes. Since NaMo elevation, has had some tough posturing(relative to previous GOI). may be important but not very much so.
---------------------------------------------------------
Overall think communist china did what they do normally by trying to nibble the neighboring country territory but unexpectedly India showed some serious stiff spine which probably triggered the blistering propaganda media response. :(( :((
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by krisna »

some have commented on trying to link cpec obor/bri Baluchistan pok etc etc to the current stand off in Doklam region.

should not common sense dictate that it will harden India's response not to involve with the cpec obor etc . why should communist china anger India. It will death knell for these initiatives.
India is the only country which can help massively in these projects(relative to others)
EU and usa do not figure in this as these are land based initiatives.

Angering India will make India claim pok including shaksgam plateau,make strident noises on baluchistan, increase defence spending, initiate moves with other countries etc.

---------------------------------
May be too simplistic but another way of looking at things and not overly react trying to link everything into the current standoff.

Overall think communist china did what they do normally by trying to nibble the neighboring country territory but unexpectedly India showed some serious stiff spine which probably triggered the blistering propaganda media response. :(( :((

jmts.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by SSridhar »

ramana wrote:Now Chindu trawls WeChat blogs to bolster China position against India.
Look at the road pictures that Shiv posted, do they look like something to support a watchtower?
Moron presstitute.
I was astonished that a blog somewhere is being given all the prominence. What has it come to !! Disgusting.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

Most articles that I see have no clue where the action is taking place.

Incidentally I got an excited call from YusufDFI yesterday, He had just attended a NIAS meeting and it was about Dokala. They started with my video apparently. Only Yusuf knew.. :((
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by SSridhar »

Shiv, well done.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Bade »

From the various chinese new channels, it seems even their media has no real clue. Even the ex-Amby to India was waffling and clueless...but everyone has lapped up their propaganda.

In reality it is the location which gives it the coverage in the Indian press, but in terms of incursion at other places along the border they intrude much further into Indian territory. But the fact that their press has gone ape shit on this indicates a failure, as they thought of this as a cakewalk, largely because India had not objected to their activities even post 2014, till now.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by deejay »

Shiv Sir your video and RVs blog have become the go to source for all analysis. Well Done!
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by SSridhar »

The unfortunate usage of 'Dokalam' terminology has muddled it even further.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by SSridhar »

Fake Chinese spares sold to Army for Bofors guns - The Hindu

This is the height of our problems if our Army depends on Chinese spare parts!
China-made parts camouflaged as ‘Made in Germany’ have found their way to the production line of indigenised Bofors guns used by the Army, prompting the CBI to file a case against a Delhi-based company. The CBI has also registered a case against unidentified officials of the Gun Carriage Factory (GCF), Jabalpur.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Iyersan »

As yusufdfi said in his tweet . The very fact that the standoff has gone on for so long is a win in itself for india
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by panduranghari »

Rudradev ji,
What can ChiPak do now that USPak have not done since time immemorial wrt to Jammu&Kashmir? And why would it make any difference to us in the short or medium term?

OR Is this a COUNTER to India's punitive response if Bakis use TNW?

So what will India do? Eliminate Baki leadership?
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by VikramS »

shiv wrote:Most articles that I see have no clue where the action is taking place.

Incidentally I got an excited call from YusufDFI yesterday, He had just attended a NIAS meeting and it was about Dokala. They started with my video apparently. Only Yusuf knew.. :((
Your video has appeared on my various social media feeds (WA/FB) multiple times.

But often it is a FB upload and not a link to your YT channel. :|
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by kapilrdave »

shiv wrote:Most articles that I see have no clue where the action is taking place.

Incidentally I got an excited call from YusufDFI yesterday, He had just attended a NIAS meeting and it was about Dokala. They started with my video apparently. Only Yusuf knew.. :((
Hakimji Vaidyaraj, your video is all over the place on whatsapp groups. I've already received on two groups. From next time, put your name and link on the video.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by g.sarkar »

Rudradev wrote: this is a paid piece sponsored not by the CCP or PLA but by the Xi faction to try and make Xi look smart after a dumb gamble. Basically it is Xi saying "I am not a Musharraf. I am tactically brilliant"
What do you expect South China Morning Post to write? I posted it for us to see that they are writing about. If I remember correctly, Asia Times is not neutral either.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Philip »

That this Doklam gambit was meant by XI Gins to bolster his next party-grab ambitions is quite evident from the manner in which the hysterical Chinese have been trashing India.They expected a quiet ,unadvertised retreat by India and allowing them their road in Bhutanese territory. But after the Chinese hard line on our NSG membership,outrageous demand that we acquiesce to their OBOR overlordship,and persistent support for Paki terrorists,the GOI under Mr.Modi had had enough of Chinese mischief in the Himalayas. Very often kindness is mistaken for weakness.Xi Gins badly misread Mr. Modi when he was ceremoniously invited to India with all the stops pulled out to make his visit a success.Riverbank soirees,etc., gave him the impression that we were a bunch of softies ,more interested in ancient culture and polite protocol like the Oudh rulers.The Godless,sh*worms of the PRC do not understand that this is where we receive our strength from,and that relying only their human strength devoid of spirituality ,will inevitably lose.

Part of the problem for the Chinese is the downhill snowball of the Paki state-in every aspect and its approaching denouement from the US.As Pak disintegrates,India grows stronger and despite its desperate terrorist ventures,India has a vice-like grip on J&K.Therefore China is making every effort to sow discord in the NEast of India and shore up the Paki regime by this military adventurism.XI Gins will have to pull off at least a face-saving measure if he is not to be questioned at the congress. The real Q is will India give him a face-saver or not? Time for Mr.Modi to stand firm and let the Chins blink first.
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