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Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby morem » 28 Jul 2017 03:28

need to be extra careful with this , i think

china sending conciliatory signals
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 795690.cms

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Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Peregrine » 28 Jul 2017 03:43

Britain plans to send warship to South China Sea in move likely to irk Beijing

SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA: Britain plans to send a warship to the disputed South China Sea next year to conduct freedom of navigation exercises, Defence Minister Michael Fallon said on Thursday, a move likely to anger Beijing.

Britain would increase in presence in the waters after it sent four British fighter planes for joint exercises with Japan in the region last year, he said.

China claims most of the energy-rich sea where neighbors Brunei, Malaysia, the Philippines, Taiwan and Vietnam also have claims.

“We hope to send a warship to region next year. We have not finalised exactly where that deployment will take place but we won’t be constrained by China from sailing through the South China Sea,” Fallon told Reuters.

“We have the right of freedom of navigation and we will exercise it.”

The presence of a British vessel threatens to stoke tensions, escalated by China’s naval build-up and its increasingly assertive stance.

China’s construction of islands and military facilities in the South China Sea has stoked international condemnation, amid concern Beijing is seeking to restrict free movement and extend its strategic reach.

Britain’s move could also upset ties between London and Beijing, undermining efforts to shore up what the two governments have called a “golden era” in their relationship as Britain heads towards a divorce with the European Union.

“We flew RAF Typhoons through the South China Sea last October and we will exercise that right whenever we next have the opportunity to do so, whenever we have ships or planes in the region,” Fallon said.

The United States estimates Beijing has added more than 3,200 acres (1,300 hectares) on seven features in the South China Sea over the past three years, building runways, ports, aircraft hangars and communications equipment.

To counter the perceived Chinese aggression, the United States has conducted regular freedom of navigation exercises that have angered Beijing.

Earlier this month, the United States sent two bombers over the region, coming just a few months after it sent a warship to carry out a maneuvering drill within 12 nautical miles of one of China’s artificial islands.

China has repeatedly denounced efforts by countries from outside the region to get involved in the South China Sea dispute.

The South China Sea is expected to dominate a regional security meeting in Manila next week, where Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi will meet counterparts from the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) countries.

Meeting ASEAN diplomats in Beijing on Wednesday, Wang told them both sides must “exclude disturbances on the South China Sea issue, and maintain positive momentum”, China’s Foreign Ministry said.

Cheers Image

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prem » 28 Jul 2017 04:47

Desi Psy Op in SM
That Chinese foreign minister resigned citing international pressure because of Doklam stand off.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 28 Jul 2017 07:34

Doval must have told Eleven that RAA has glossies of Cheen FM GUBOing for the hotel Room Service.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2017 07:48

nam wrote:
The para drop by Pakis has removed any doubt in my mind that Pakis had plans to take over more than Kashmir in 65. The attack towards Lahore by India was described as surprise. No surprised army can para drop on 3 locations with a day or two of any attack by India. They were well prepared.

This is well documented. They had practiced fighter runs and para drops for months inj advance. I have (as I mentined) a 1965 war booklet and I made it into a video with narration
1965 war - a picture documentary

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2017 07:59

williams wrote:Do we really have a manpower problem in the Chinese front? I think IA combined with BSF,CRPF,ITBP,SSB, RR etc we should have enough first line, reserve and second line defence elements in place. If at all we need improvement, we need to get better equipment for NCC and start a NCO, JCO TA program.

I think that one of the greatest tragedies that followed the 1962 war was not informing the public about why India got its ass whupped and why the Chinese withdrew.

All that the public heard was
    Chinese attacked in human waves
    Our men fought to the last man
    We must cry because we have been wronged - being a peaceful nation and the nation of Mahatma Gandhi

1. Decisions about what would be done at the frontier were made as announcements in parliament without even asking the armed forces.
2. Nehru had a "forward policy" without the military wherewithal to conduct such a policy.
3. He sidelined the Assam rifles (then a police force with war experience) and put the Indian army where they had no presence, maps, logistics or supplies
4, He put his blue eyed boy Kaul in charge in the East (name corrected)
5. He panicked out of using the air force but invited RAF and USAF

Because of under-information and misinformation some Indians are still shitting bricks when China and war is mentioned. And in Twitter and FB I am seeing people asking which countries will "join us" against China.
Last edited by shiv on 28 Jul 2017 09:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prem » 28 Jul 2017 08:07

shiv wrote:
SBajwa wrote:Villagers hunting for the Baki paratroopers in 1965 war.
In this case of course the brave villagers of Punjab had Pakis in their fields and helped hunt them down. there are other stories of villagers taking food for soldiers right up to the frontline under fireIf you look closely at the image - you will see vertical scan lines. In the late 1990s I did not have a flatbed scanner but this image was in a booklet I have that I got in 1966 - with details of the 1965 war. I scanned the image using a hand held scanner which had to be rolled across the image and the scan lines are from that image - which I scanned maybe 2 decades ago from a 50 + year old booklet.


Many of my cousins, uncles etc were part of Adampur hunt. There were stories of stand off between Paki Jantus and Desi civilians and as commonly known , many civilians also went to paki side captured by IA and brought in truck and tractor loads of Khum.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2017 08:40

ldev wrote: I have been reading on various articles and twitter feeds as to how China feels that they have been doing road building in this area since 2003-2007 and have never been challenged.]

The same track is certainly present in Google earth historic images from 2005 - unchanged until the latest 2015 images on GE. Interestingly the Chinese too have known exactly where they are (in Bhutan) and have not ventured into Indian territory

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby atamjeetsingh » 28 Jul 2017 08:42

Apologies in advance for bringing this up again.
Civilian forming a militia should not be allowed at any cost. We can also learn from our neighbor's mistake. Pakis allowed militia from fata region and now writ of government doesn't run there. We don't want the same in our border areas. Today they may be used as cannon fodder but implication will be greater for nation later.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SriKumar » 28 Jul 2017 08:54

shiv wrote: I think that one of the greatest tragedies that followed the 1962 war was not informing the public about why India got its ass whupped and why the Chinese withdrew.
4, He put his blue eyed boy Chaudhuri in charge
You mean Gen. Thapar? (or perhaps BM Kaul)? Gen. Chaudhuri came in after Thapar resigned in disgrace in the aftermath of the '62 debacle (though the ceasefire was still not declared).
Last edited by SriKumar on 28 Jul 2017 08:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2017 08:58

Deans wrote:True. From what little I have seen of civilian volunteers in civil defence, their level of knowledge, training and initiative is poor. This would be
an ideal place to induct reservists (e.g. to head a local civil defence team, or supplement the police force) and have preset procedures for activating them.

You may well be right - my own "knowledge" is simply memories going back decades. But (and this is a guess which would apply to cites near border areas) I think that reservists and police would be the people who get arms in case it comes to a fight in the city and the void created by absence of police in say traffic control and general neighbourhood surveillance will be filled up with civilian volunteers.

We keep having disaster management drills but we do have a lot of fit young men doing various security duties. We are not short of fit men. A few days ago I saw a couple of smart young men in mil fatigues carrying 9 mm sidearms. I asked them what unit they were from and they said Karnataka Reserve police for Metro Rapid reaction force

A day later outside hospital I saw one of the smartest young sardars I have seen in my life. Broad shouldered and standing proud, chest out, walking with a swagger - in a black uniform. He was security for a state minister - answered me with a smile and polite reply.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2017 09:00

SriKumar wrote:
shiv wrote: I think that one of the greatest tragedies that followed the 1962 war was not informing the public about why India got its ass whupped and why the Chinese withdrew.
4, He put his blue eyed boy Chaudhuri in charge
You mean Gen. Thapar? (or perhaps BM Kaul)? Gen. Chaudhuri came in after Thapar resigned in Nov. '62.

Sorry Kaul my bad. Will correct

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Karthik S » 28 Jul 2017 09:19

Slightly OT regarding civilian help, there is belief that there was a ghost/angel that helped IA by providing misinformation to pakis during 72 war. Is it true or is it just an urban legend.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2017 09:21

Karthik S wrote:Slightly OT regarding civilian help, there is belief that there was a ghost/angel that helped IA by providing misinformation to pakis during 72 war. Is it true or is it just an urban legend.

It was green djinns that helped the Paki army

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 28 Jul 2017 09:21

No ban on Chinese firms: Sushma

In the Rajya Sabha, T. Subbarami Reddy (Congress) asked Ms. Swaraj that while security clearance was denied to a Chinese company, it was given to those from Japan, Korea, Italy and other countries. Would it not have an adverse impact on relations with China, he asked.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Karthik S » 28 Jul 2017 09:28

SSridhar wrote:No ban on Chinese firms: Sushma

In the Rajya Sabha, T. Subbarami Reddy (Congress) asked Ms. Swaraj that while security clearance was denied to a Chinese company, it was given to those from Japan, Korea, Italy and other countries. Would it not have an adverse impact on relations with China, he asked.


Has he been living under a rock? Or may be too much Chinese salt.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Atmavik » 28 Jul 2017 09:33

shiv wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Slightly OT regarding civilian help, there is belief that there was a ghost/angel that helped IA by providing misinformation to pakis during 72 war. Is it true or is it just an urban legend.

It was green djinns that helped the Paki army


The angels were catching IA grenades and throwing them back. Pakis also could see Ali ki talwar but one had to be a true Muslim to see all this

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby sum » 28 Jul 2017 09:34

Karthik S wrote:Slightly OT regarding civilian help, there is belief that there was a ghost/angel that helped IA by providing misinformation to pakis during 72 war. Is it true or is it just an urban legend.

First time im hearing this( Had only heard TSP-ians braying about a Djinn which caught the bombs caught by IAF etc).
What and where exactly had you heard this, saar?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Atmavik » 28 Jul 2017 09:37

sum wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Slightly OT regarding civilian help, there is belief that there was a ghost/angel that helped IA by providing misinformation to pakis during 72 war. Is it true or is it just an urban legend.

First time im hearing this( Had only heard TSP-ians braying about a Djinn which caught the bombs caught by IAF etc).
What and where exactly had you heard this, saar?


Sarcasm

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby kiranA » 28 Jul 2017 09:41

Guys,

I think people wont like my post but I don't see this ending well for India. I am very confused by the positions of Indian government whereas chinese positions appear to be consistent and they seem to react with a righteous anger which is very good for the morale of t heir soldiers. On the other hand Indian government is singing peaceful resolution , nothing to see here tone after initially provoking outrage.

What is the message we are sending to India's soldiers ? that no injustice was really done to India ? How can this motivate the solider to be willing to sacrifice his life. Note that this Indian govt created this confusion among Indian soldiers in 1962 with its forward post policy to the extent it demoralized them .
From wiki :
"Some Indian troops, including Brigadier Dalvi who commanded the forces at Thag La, were also concerned that the territory they were fighting for was not strictly territory that "we should have been convinced was ours""

Also China is marshaling world opinion to aid its soldiers with diplomat briefs whereas India hasn't held a single diplomat brief citing Bhutan "sensitivities" . When the entire world reacts in outrage when sovereignty of tiny nations nations ranging from Kuwait to cremia (Ukraine) - how come not a single country seems to be buying our narrative that Bhutan sovereignty is violated? I haven't seen a single government endorsing our stand despite so called anti-china trump.

It seems Indian govt only weapon is to rely on the will power of Indian soldiers operating in the foreign country of Bhutan - its foreign department wont move a finger, its PM tweets birthday wishes to chinese premeir. How can this be sustainable ?

I dont believe India is playing anything serious here - it maneuvered in to a position which is not sustainable and doesnt know where to go now. I think small cabal took this decision like demon and I dont think foreign department was fully briefed. Otherwise they wont be singing such an pacifist/apologetic tune.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 28 Jul 2017 09:46

kiranA wrote:Guys,

I think people wont like my post but I don't see this ending well for India. I am very confused by the positions of Indian government whereas chinese positions appear to be consistent and they seem to react with a righteous anger which is very good for the morale of t heir soldiers. On the other hand Indian government is singing peaceful resolution , nothing to see here tone after initially provoking outrage.

What is the message we are sending to India's soldiers ? that no injustice was really done to India ? How can this motivate the solider to be willing to sacrifice his life. Note that this Indian govt created this confusion among Indian soldiers in 1962 with its forward post policy to the extent it demoralized them .
From wiki :
"Some Indian troops, including Brigadier Dalvi who commanded the forces at Thag La, were also concerned that the territory they were fighting for was not strictly territory that "we should have been convinced was ours""

Also China is marshaling world opinion to aid its soldiers with diplomat briefs whereas India hasn't held a single diplomat brief citing Bhutan "sensitivities" . When the entire world reacts in outrage when sovereignty of tiny nations nations ranging from Kuwait to cremia (Ukraine) - how come not a single country seems to be buying our narrative that Bhutan sovereignty is violated? I haven't seen a single government endorsing our stand despite so called anti-china trump.

It seems Indian govt only weapon is to rely on the will power of Indian soldiers operating in the foreign country of Bhutan - its foreign department wont move a finger, its PM tweets birthday wishes to chinese premeir. How can this be sustainable ?

I dont believe India is playing anything serious here - it maneuvered in to a position which is not sustainable and doesnt know where to go now. I think small cabal took this decision like demon and I dont think foreign department was fully briefed. Otherwise they wont be singing such an pacifist/apologetic tune.

Worry more. This is hardly enough. We are about to be screwed

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Deans » 28 Jul 2017 09:52

1962 was a failure of the Army''s senior leadership - not just Nehru appointing a very unsuitable Gen Kaul as CO of 4th Corps. The army has learnt from that. For e.g.
- Lt Gen Kaul reported to the Lt. Gen Sen (CO Eastern command). Eastern Command was then in Lucknow. The HQ had little knowledge of the North East and Gen Sen (though a hero of the 1948 operations) none at all. Today Divisional, corps and command HQ's are all much closer.

- Neither the CO of 4th Div (who also over cautious in front of Lahore in 1965), nor Lt Gen Sen (Kaul's boss), either protested against, or countermanded the ridiculous plan of Gen Kaul to order 7th Brigade to `throw out the Chinese' from the Thag la ridge and (when that failed) to withdraw from the Nam kachu river and occupy defensible uphill positions. Today a IA Brigade commander would have far more freedom to deploy his force, within the parameters of his objective.

- Tawang was given up without a fight, though a single battalion (1 Sikh) demonstrated that it could be defended. This was partly because the army leadership panicked (Kaul had a nervous breakdown) and partly because they thought Se La top would be a more defensible position - which it would have been, had it been prepared in advance and not hastily occupied. Today IA would defend from well prepared forward and fall back positions.

- Se La was defended by a brigade whose commander, (the WW2 hero Col Hoshiar Singh) was rushed from his position as the NDA's Dy Commandant, to command a brigade at Se La, without any situational awareness, or getting familiarised with his units. It did not help that the newly inducted commander of 4th Div (after his predecessor was sacked) suffered from altitude sickness and moved his HQ away from Se La, badly compromising communications. Today officers at every level have a far better understanding of the terrain, their mission and different scenarios their units might find themselves in. The PLA, however, may face this problem, with officers having a short tenure and little knowledge of the LAC receiving impractical orders from their political commissars (and suffering from a prolonged stay at 4500 meters).

- Lt Gen Harbaksh Singh managed to restore some order in 4th corps in Kaul's absence, when he was inexplicably moved out and Kaul got back
his corps. There is a far more robust C&C system today.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 28 Jul 2017 10:10

do the PLA have political CCP komissars attached to the HQs to monitor things and report in a parallel channel back to their overlords?
soviet union used to have it upto some point. kruschev was a kommissar in stalingrad.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 28 Jul 2017 10:14

Image

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 28 Jul 2017 10:17

first Noko attached and pushed the south back to Pusan
then combined UN forces thrashed them back to pockets near chinese border
then china thrashed the UN and forced them back to evac by sea freeze the DMZ line

would be fascinating to know the chinese battle tactics and the major battles fought in this phase of the war.

why was the US with its uber powerful artillery divisions, navy and air force unable to crush the chinese advance ?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Deans » 28 Jul 2017 10:20

Singha wrote:do the PLA have political CCP komissars attached to the HQs to monitor things and report in a parallel channel back to their overlords?
soviet union used to have it upto some point. kruschev was a kommissar in stalingrad.


Yes. Also the PLA reports to the Communist party, not the Chinese Govt.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 28 Jul 2017 10:25

well I suppose the CCP top10 elite is the chinese govts top echelon...is there a diff between the two?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Deans » 28 Jul 2017 10:53

Singha wrote:first Noko attached and pushed the south back to Pusan
then combined UN forces thrashed them back to pockets near chinese border
then china thrashed the UN and forced them back to evac by sea freeze the DMZ line

would be fascinating to know the chinese battle tactics and the major battles fought in this phase of the war.

why was the US with its uber powerful artillery divisions, navy and air force unable to crush the chinese advance ?


The PLA was able to counterattack and push the Americans back beyond the 38th Parallel, because they had advanced too far forward.
In your map, you would see that the line between Pyongyang and Wonsan represents a narrow frontage, where the US / UN forces would be
able to defend more easily, while being in control of the major cities of the North. MacArthur felt the Chinese /Noko forces had been broken
and wanted to advance upto the Chinese frontier, against the advice of the political leadership and some of his own generals. It worsened his
supply position & pressurized the Chinese into massively increasing their involvement and organising a massive attack on the extended US forces.

The US/UN forces were outnumbered roughly 4:1 but managed a fighting withdrawal. The USSR supplied masses of Mig15's, that negated the (until then) compete air superiority that the US had. The Chinese used roughly the same tactics that they did later in 1962, infiltration around US positions, psy ops, use of local spies etc. Nevertheless, their `successful attack was believed to have cost them a third of their force killed or wounded without really breaking any of the US/UN units.
Look up the battle of the Chosin reservoir, which is a classic in US (and Turkish) military history.
After throwing the US out of NoKo, the Chinese repeated the American mistake of advancing on a broader front, neglecting their supplies.

Thereafter, for most of the time until the war ended, the fighting was across the 38th parallel. That is similar to the situation we face today.
The PLA attacking US/UN forces in hilly terrain, with limited axis of advance, could not make headway, despite losing men in a 10:1 ratio.
Add to that the fact that today on the LAC, the PLA has to fight at altitudes of 4500 meters and their supply line stretches back 2500 km (not 250 as it was in the Korean war).

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby sum » 28 Jul 2017 11:03

Singha wrote:first Noko attached and pushed the south back to Pusan
then combined UN forces thrashed them back to pockets near chinese border
then china thrashed the UN and forced them back to evac by sea freeze the DMZ line

would be fascinating to know the chinese battle tactics and the major battles fought in this phase of the war.


Slight OT:
Singha-saar, in case you ever visit Seoul, pliss to visit the massive 3 storey war museum ( which is free!!).
Absolutely amazing treasure trove of info, 3D movies and detailed tactics and lots of actual warplanes.
The War Memorial of Korea (전쟁기념관)

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 28 Jul 2017 11:11

the USSR does that have very strategic small border with Noko. the big boys always keep little pieces like that, UK is a past master at the art - HK, singapore, penang, rangoon, trincomalee, diego garcia, aden, suez...

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Yagnasri » 28 Jul 2017 11:16

One of the critical items may be large scale precision strike capability of China.If they can precisely attack either by artillery or by missiles etc, the Indian positions and the supply lines then there may be serious problems for us.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Pulikeshi » 28 Jul 2017 11:25



This is absolutely pathetic one sided idiocy on CGTN - who is the audience? I am assuming no one in China watches this.... ;-)
Is China using US to back down from its corner! :P
Last edited by Pulikeshi on 28 Jul 2017 11:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prasad » 28 Jul 2017 11:30

Remember this India Today cover image a few days ago. Totally didn't notice lack of Tibet & Taiwan but addition of what we dump in pakistan portrayed perfectly.
Image
Guess hu likes that - http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3219951 Taiwanese newspapers!

China's Sina News quickly responded by asking "Where's our Tibet and Taiwan?"

The question from the Taiwanese media is why the editors of the magazine decided to exclude Tibet and Taiwan from the illustration and what message were they trying to convey.


When China's Foreign Ministry spokesman Lu Kong was questioned by reporters about the magazine cover, he jokingly said "You're really taking that little trick seriously? Next question."



Quite easy to build support. Just plug away at the fact that none of their inner this outer that have any legitimacy. Stop parroting the one-china line of our govt and push these by everybody else. Everything from semi-official down should start using these to push back.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 28 Jul 2017 12:45

Mark as occupied tibet in addition. Give stapled visas to any vistor whose passport was given in tibet

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Philip » 28 Jul 2017 13:14

Great piece of artwork.A collector's item!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 28 Jul 2017 14:22

Chicken droppings have a green colour too

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby yensoy » 28 Jul 2017 14:45

Singha wrote:Mark as occupied tibet in addition. Give stapled visas to any vistor whose passport was given in tibet


No, why would we want to inconvenience our Tibetan brothers who will undoubtedly be prevented from boarding their flights? Our reaction has to be different. I don't know how, but different.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 28 Jul 2017 15:10

Singha wrote:Chicken droppings have a green colour too


Lol. Yes, that would most aptly decribe the TSP. A good one, saar!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby rsingh » 28 Jul 2017 15:32

India today cover...........bold step in right direction.

chola
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 28 Jul 2017 15:32

Korea was the one that made the PRC's reputation because it was a major war against an established global power in the US where it made territorial gains. Never mind that the SYREs have not fought in decades, the chinis are viewed as a military power even today because of this one war.

We are presented with the same opportunity right now -- a fight with an established global power, a P5, that can establish us as a great military power for generations. The situation is perfect, we have overwhelming local superiority in numbers and logistics.

But it seems like we will negotiate ourselves out of an epochal victory.


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