Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 01 Aug 2017 22:02

"Agreement" between lizards and rats is interesting. So what did they have all these years when lizard nukes were going boom in Baluchistan, and missiles were being tested? Disagreement? Its only a matter of time b4 a nuke appears near Urumqui at PLA base. Going boom.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 01 Aug 2017 22:41

UlanBatori wrote:Seen at 1962 thread from someone whose relatives died in 1962:

Reading this thread is hilarious, pardon me. The Chinese communist propaganda is tragic in reality. To invade India, communist Red Chinese government send over 400,000 poor, emaciated, ill-trained conscripts from the Yangtse low-land plains, and also some prisoners dragged there in cattle trains from Mongolia. My relatives among them. They had hardly any weapons except for a “Burp Gun” which jammed 70% of the time, and often blew up, destroying the thumb, fingers and even forearms of the soldier. They had little food - just a small satchel of uncooked rice and a few scraps of dog-meat. With this they were force-marched (gasoline was also in short supply) several hundred miles, climbing into the Tibetan plateau. About 8 out of even 10 soldiers fell victim to high-altitude sickness. About 3 out of 10 either died or (because of powerful relatives) were evacuated. So now this 400,000 had become 280,000, most on the verge of collapse. Then they were asked to charge uphill against Indian positions. True, they captured many positions because India only had a few policemen with .303 rifles and sticks posted there to scare away wild animals. But every post captured, cost the attacker 10 to 20 soldier for every defender killed. Then the remainder of the Chinese aremy (now about 120,000) were ordered to march down into Tawang, all the way down to outskirts of Tezpur, Assam. This was in a desperate search for food. Then they heard that Indian Air Force and US Air Force bombers were getting ready to attack - and PLA leaders panicked. If the bridges and roads had been destroyed, entire 120,000 would have been killed. So they ordered these near-death soldiers to climb the mountains BACK into Tibet!! In December winter in the Himalayas! By the time they reached Tibet, only 40,000 were left, and most were near death. My relatives perished in this cruel atrocity by the Communist Party. 722 killed? Those must have been the Party Leaders’ relatives, who died while being brought back to Beijing! China suffered a HORRIBLE defeat, had to run all the way back and are now stuck in the frozen wastes of DokLa. Chinese leaders are criminals.

This is as expected but why has it never been mentioned explicitly by GOI or Indian media.

And, Neville old boy, I suppose this is consonant with your intellectual hero Mao's subtle statecraft. Do come out of the shadows (or is it woodwork), and reply like a man. Propaganda pieces in The Christian Times of London or South China Mourning Post do not really count for much.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 01 Aug 2017 22:42

UlanBatori wrote:Seen at 1962 thread from someone whose relatives died in 1962:

Reading this thread is hilarious, pardon me. The Chinese communist propaganda is tragic in reality. To

invade India, communist Red Chinese government send over 400,000 poor, emaciated, ill-trained conscripts from the Yangtse low-land plains, and also some prisoners dragged there in cattle trains from Mongolia. My relatives among them. They had hardly any weapons except for a “Burp Gun” which jammed 70% of the time, and often blew up, destroying the thumb, fingers and even forearms of the soldier. They had little food - just a small satchel of uncooked rice and a few scraps of dog-meat. With this they were force-marched (gasoline was also in short supply) several hundred miles, climbing into the Tibetan plateau. About 8 out of even 10 soldiers fell victim to high-altitude sickness. About 3 out of 10 either died or (because of powerful relatives) were evacuated. So now this 400,000 had become 280,000, most on the verge of collapse. Then they were asked to charge uphill against Indian positions. True, they captured many positions because India only had a few policemen with .303 rifles and sticks posted there to scare away wild animals. But every post captured, cost the attacker 10 to 20 soldier for every defender killed. Then the remainder of the Chinese aremy (now about 120,000) were ordered to march down into Tawang, all the way down to outskirts of Tezpur, Assam. This was in a desperate search for food. Then they heard that Indian Air Force and US Air Force bombers were getting ready to attack - and PLA leaders panicked. If the bridges and roads had been destroyed, entire 120,000 would have been killed. So they ordered these near-death soldiers to climb the mountains BACK into Tibet!! In December winter in the Himalayas! By the time they reached Tibet, only 40,000 were left, and most were near death. My relatives perished in this cruel atrocity by the Communist Party. 722 killed? Those must have been the Party Leaders’ relatives, who died while being brought back to Beijing! China suffered a HORRIBLE defeat, had to run all the way back and are now stuck in the frozen wastes of DokLa. Chinese leaders are criminals.

May your Yaks find mates.

Time to WhatsApp and FB this gem far and wide. Cheeni rags will soon eat crow Manchurian along with humble pie.

nam · Post by **nam** » 01 Aug 2017 22:45

If the Chinese Commie Army maintains only 4 brigades in Tibet, how do they even look after 2000 KM of mountains border?

What if we do regular incursion in multiple places? Wouldn't the Commie army be forced to keep re-deploying their troops to counter such incursion? What if we carry heli ops and deploy behind them cutting off log lines? So how will they even concentrate their forces in one place to attack at different points on LAC?

If we fear the Commie army can launch an attack on other parts of LAC, India can do the same as well. In fact if they do attack, that would perfect. Attacking Dolam would give them brownie points that they are try to evict India within the contested areas. If they attack somewhere else what explanation will they give? "We are at a disadvantage so we attacked somewhere else". It will make them look even a bigger loser. For all the grandeur of 2000 tanks on parades... cannot evict some soldiers on a ridge.

Moreover India gets to announce to the world that Chines are invading us again, Modi making Churchill style speeches and giving us the opportunity to light up the entire LAC

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 01 Aug 2017 22:49

Karthik S wrote:
shiv wrote: US does not care and can't help
The reason I mentioned US is that they know about pakis having terrorist infra, I was assuming that paki nukes were in some control of the US lest it falls into any terrorist hands. But now with China coming into the fray, I doubt if US will ignore it now even though we all know Cheen had its hand in pak nuke program in the past. China can leverage their control over paki nukes now pushing aside any american control.

Very good point. US wouldn't want to lose all control over puki Islamic bums. If that happens, Saudis and Turkey will get the bum and that is something US and Israel cannot imagine or let happen.

Hope someone in Trump administration is doing their job. US has enough bunker busting missiles to take out all the known warheads of Pukiland within few hours. They key to this strategy is coverage and accuracy of Intel. ELINT would be insufficient and can be faked. They need multiple corraborating HUMINT on a continuous basis.

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Aug 2017 22:54

schinnas wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Seen at 1962 thread from someone whose relatives died in 1962:

May your Yaks find mates.

Time to WhatsApp and FB this gem far and wide. Cheeni rags will soon eat crow Manchurian along with humble pie.

Yes and no. If they were able to put 400,000 men on the Tibetan plateau back in 1962 then this will dhoti shiver people into thinking they can put 1,000,000 there today.

Sorry to say, saar, that chini story is bull. They have no more than 50K in Tibet today and far less in 1962.

We own the numercial advantage on the border completely and absolutely. This story of 400,000 chini swarming over us in 1962 is not logistically possible for the PLA even today.

They cannot outnumber us on the border. Period. If we fight, the conclusion is foregone. There is nothing they can do to bring the numbers on par with us. Victory is certain if we fight.

Fight we must.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 01 Aug 2017 23:04

Chola, I don't think anyone on BRF took that post as gospel truth...I even thought that it was posted by a Mongolian yak herder under a pseudonym. But it's one hell of a psyops for the aam admi who dhoti shiver.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 01 Aug 2017 23:10

shiv wrote:I am close to finishing yet another video about border points at which conflict can take place. I had earlier listed them on this thread (heck too much staring at Google earth has made me fairly familiar with satellite imagery all across the border and LAC )

Thank you, Hakimji. While our army brass would have well studied these on maps and satellite imagery and war gamed each major possibilities, nothing like a well made video to explain the details and possibilities to the jawans and JCOs. I hope all your videos are widely circulated amongst our armed forces.

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Aug 2017 23:14

schinnas wrote:Chola, I don't think anyone on BRF took that post as gospel truth...I even thought that it was posted by a Mongolian yak herder under a pseudonym. But it's one hell of a psyops for the aam admi who dhoti shiver.

Our biggest problem right now is we are squandering a historic victory based on massive advantages in men and material (not merely hope.) And the reason we are hesitating even when we are pretty sure they very few men in Tibet is this irrational fear that they will human wave us once things get rolling. WILL NOT HAPPEN because of geo-politics and geography. Anything yhat deviates from this reality helps Cheen.

I promise Ramana I won't warmonger (as much.) But what would you do if there are 20 of you and three of you have pit bulls and the fat bully and his shih-tzu are yipping and yapping at you? Don't know about you but I would unleash the pit bulls and then charge in en masse to pummel the bully and his lapdog to no end.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 01 Aug 2017 23:31

Any chance of Chinese doing something on 15th August?

kit · Post by **kit** » 01 Aug 2017 23:37

Karthik S wrote:
shiv wrote: US does not care and can't help
The reason I mentioned US is that they know about pakis having terrorist infra, I was assuming that paki nukes were in some control of the US lest it falls into any terrorist hands. But now with China coming into the fray, I doubt if US will ignore it now even though we all know Cheen had its hand in pak nuke program in the past. China can leverage their control over paki nukes now pushing aside any american control.

Well this is america s problem more than India .. in a way america needs to meddle more in pakistan and defang it at the earliest opportunity.. before some terrorist nuke goes of somewhere !! .. pakistan is the one and only place where a terror nuke can come from .. not even NK !!..

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 01 Aug 2017 23:37

Again, one must remember what happened prior to the '62 war in Tibet itself. They had a massive guerilla war on within Tibet with all the tribes uniting to fight against the PLA. Starting from the eastern kham & amdo. Remember even Sichuan has a tibetan population, as it did way back when. All these tibetans rising against the chinese since '56 is what caused a massive program of razing monasteries and flight of refugees towards Lhasa in '59 and the Dalai Lama fleeing to India. The fighting went on until '62. So they definitely had a big presence that close to the border before 62. We just weren't prepared. Unlike now. Fear of the americans and us using air power though appears a very valid excuse to run back up the hills.

Now, they have unmanned radar stations and nearly a full squadron at Lhasa/ghonggar. They've tried 'intercepting' indian fighters from assam that 'may appear to cross the border' way back in '12.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 02 Aug 2017 00:17

rsingh wrote:Any chance of Chinese doing something on 15th August?

Are you looking for three more countries to celebrate their independence day on the same day as Bharat?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 02 Aug 2017 00:19

Does it matter is the Chinese do some mischief on 10th Aug or 15th Aug or 20th Aug? Our reply should be the same.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 02 Aug 2017 00:23

Karthik S wrote:Looks like pakis and cheenis have entered into nuke agreement. I don't know how US will react to this.

Where are you seeing this? Even google gives me nothing

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 02 Aug 2017 00:30

JE Menon wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Looks like pakis and cheenis have entered into nuke agreement. I don't know how US will react to this.
Where are you seeing this? Even google gives me nothing

Indian news channel sir, not able to recall which one. Found this link though:

http://www.shanghaidaily.com/business/i ... aily.shtml

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 02 Aug 2017 00:31

Cholaji: They sent 2 million across the Yalu river against the United Nations. 1 million plus died. To quote US forces:

Our boots could not touch the ground because the ground was covered with Chinese corpses.

This was the Chinese mode of fighting then. Yalu river was what - 2 years before 1962? Nothing changed. They had vast numbers of hungry and displaced people, plus half the country was political prisoners being forced into the frontlines to be massacred. Think about it. You ask the right question:
"If they could bring 400,000 then.." But that's exactly the point. In those days they did **NOT** have trucks and infrastructure for more than a few, but they just drove these poor sods as if they were not human.

Imagine for yourself what it must have been like to be a survivor of WW2 and Mao's war against the Nationalists, then being driven up into the desolate wastes of Tibet (where the people hated you!) then asked to march over the Himalayas in November, and then be fed into those narrow passes. Sure they overwhelmed Indian defenders because of the sheer numbers, but they must have died in HUGE numbers. Every Indian report of 1962 speaks of overwhelming numbers, Indians running out of bullets ane eventually charging with bayonets.

And then being driven to go all the way down into the plains. Eventually when they got there it must have seemed like absolute heaven after the bitter cold and gasping for breath in the heights. Green fields! Warm sunshine! Food! Water! Able to take their wooden shoes off without getting frostbite!

Then - IMMEDIATELY - UP back into the mountains in a desperate rush to get over the bridges before the IAF/US bombers took them out (revenge for Yalu/Chosin - the US must have been pretty eager). They would have expected to be nuked by the US, since there were no US soldiers on the ground. So THAT retreat was the real rout.

BTW, have you seen of **ANY** other situation where the Chinese PLA withdrew forces and conceded nice arable lands voluntarily? Look at them occupying even the barren rocks of the Spratlys and Aksai Chin! They MUST have hoped to sit in Assam forever, at least through the winter and next Spring. The rout was a rout all right, no doubt about it.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 02 Aug 2017 00:36

BTW, may your goats wander to that thread and give a few UP votes and DOWN votes appropriately. The Good Guys (and even that is a relative term) are outnumbered 40 to 1 there, much like 1962 at BomdiLa. But I think a few visits can turn that around.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 02 Aug 2017 00:36

Sun Tzu's rule: never attack relying on sheer numbers alone. Looks like they need to learn art of war first.

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 02 Aug 2017 00:51

Singha wrote:step1 - DT goes ballistic, empties his VLS magazines at Noko

step2 - Kim goes ballistic and starts viciously shelling Soko and making prep to fire his ballistic missile. soko and japan ready for the worst.

step3 (surprise!) - china which mysteriously knows all noko wmd and c3i locations uses DF21D and J20 in pin point strikes to remove these threats, kills Kim and his coterie in some bunker and PLA marches in strength across the border, followed by 1000s of trucks bearing food aid and reconstruction corps. noko army surrenders quickly.

step4 - a new chakravartin is anointed in pyong yang , democratically selected by Peking.

step5 - DT wings his way to peking to pay homage at the great hall of the dlagon lord for saving his gambit and making him look taller and stronger. offers to let cheen manage the rebuilding of noko with due help from Seoul

step6 - seoul and tokyo next pay homage for saving their countries from ruin and nuclear attack. cheen basks in worldwide adulation for killing this huge threat to world peace. only TSP in deep mourning for losing its n-test site.

step7 - Xi turns his considerable wrath on the sole holdout Yindia next

Kim is but a stepping stone which Cheen will use to become Shogun of east asia. a means to an end, not the end. I think he realizes this and has plans to go feral at the due time. while kim and bashar assad may not look like much vs their ruthless and cunning fathers, they have the same blood and dna and are a lot more cunning than they project.

This is a very real scenario.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 Aug 2017 00:56

India has the Yoga day. India's soft power makes the whole world do Yoga on the International Yoga day. For everyone's prosperity and good health

What does china do?
They will launch the "Cheat your business partner day" or
"Have a Border dispute with your neighbour day", or
"photocopy and steal someone's design day", or
"Proliferate nuclear weapons and missiles to Pakistan and North Korea day", or even
"Bankrupt already poor countries with Chinese high interest loan shark day"

vnms · Post by **vnms** » 02 Aug 2017 01:05

Gagan wrote:India has the Yoga day. India's soft power makes the whole world do Yoga on the International Yoga day. For everyone's prosperity and good health

What does china do?
They will launch the "Cheat your business partner day" or
"Have a Border dispute with your neighbour day", or
"photocopy and steal someone's design day", or
"Proliferate nuclear weapons and missiles to Pakistan and North Korea day", or even
"Bankrupt already poor countries with Chinese high interest loan shark day"

Figure out a way to tweet this.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 02 Aug 2017 01:05

Eleven's predecessors used the same mistake in attacking war-ravaged Vietnam. 100,000 est. killed, total loss in war. If NoKo army fights, it may be long and bloody for the far less war-like PLA and indeed a resounding defeat. But beyond that I cannot fault that scenario.

OTOH, I cannot see why Eleven is not a worse threat today to India, without having suffered losses in Korea. Global this-that is completely irrelevant, no one is going to intervene against China in support of India. Best bet is a disintegration of China causing friendly Putinski to solve some long-standing issues are Ussuri River, and near NoKo borders.

Plus, friendly SeeAyYeh will seen unprecedented opportunity to start Color Revolutions in Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, North Dharmasala etc.

Word is that in the War Museum in Beijing, one entire floor is devoted to Korean Heroic War of Liberation. Invading noko might cause significant confusion among the public.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 Aug 2017 01:08

vnms wrote:
Gagan wrote:India has the Yoga day. India's soft power makes the whole world do Yoga on the International Yoga day. For everyone's prosperity and good health

What does china do?
They will launch the "Cheat your business partner day" or
"Have a Border dispute with your neighbour day", or
"photocopy and steal someone's design day", or
"Proliferate nuclear weapons and missiles to Pakistan and North Korea day", or even
"Bankrupt already poor countries with Chinese high interest loan shark day"
Figure out a way to tweet this.

Yes,
Too many words...

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 02 Aug 2017 01:10

Gagan's list needs to be made into a Calendar with Eleven months. last month is of course, XI.

V is for 5: Panch Sheel:
1. Fund terrorists.
2. Nukes to wackos.
3. Dump products.
4. Steal cows & land & technology.
5. Backstab with invasions.

salaam · Post by **salaam** » 02 Aug 2017 01:11

Gagan wrote:
vnms wrote: Figure out a way to tweet this.
Yes,
Too many words...

Take a snapshot. Post that on twitter.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 02 Aug 2017 02:26

pankajs wrote:Does it matter is the Chinese do some mischief on 10th Aug or 15th Aug or 20th Aug? Our reply should be the same.

yaa but China is all about symbolism and hurling insults.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 02 Aug 2017 03:34

UlanBatori wrote:Eleven's predecessors used the same mistake in attacking war-ravaged Vietnam. 100,000 est. killed, total loss in war. If NoKo army fights, it may be long and bloody for the far less war-like PLA and indeed a resounding defeat. But beyond that I cannot fault that scenario.

OTOH, I cannot see why Eleven is not a worse threat today to India, without having suffered losses in Korea. Global this-that is completely irrelevant, no one is going to intervene against China in support of India. Best bet is a disintegration of China causing friendly Putinski to solve some long-standing issues are Ussuri River, and near NoKo borders.

Plus, friendly SeeAyYeh will seen unprecedented opportunity to start Color Revolutions in Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, North Dharmasala etc.

Word is that in the War Museum in Beijing, one entire floor is devoted to Korean Heroic War of Liberation. Invading noko might cause significant confusion among the public.

What are you talking about, Oceania was always at war with Eastasia

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 02 Aug 2017 03:49

Trouble with PRC is that it is built on conscript military and conscript factory labor, with very little room for independent thought. The Billionaires are all shaky: any day the Knock On the Door can come at 3AM with the Lifetime cattle-car Passes to the Gobi for the entire family. Everyone lives at the pleasure of the PLA leadership. So the whole edifice is utterly unstable. One serious crack in the PLA and it's all over, dissolution into "civil" war that will make Syria look like a friendly tennis match. And that can come simply because one General does something stupid that bisses off perfectly nice customers of another General - as has happened with this utter defeat of the PLA at the hands of the Bhutanese Traffic Police. Push a couple of Bhutanese traffic police - and next thing you know, $60B /yr for the next 10 years - $600B!!! down the Yellow River.

I am sure the damage has been done already. As Lt. Miller said to Col. Mallory after the explosion at the base of the Dam in Force 10 From Navarone:

Give it time. Let Nature do her work!

My Uncle thrice removed twice to Re-Education Camps, used to tell me about the so-called Red Guards and CULTURAL REVOLUTION.
What goes around, comes around. The next MATERIALIST REVOLUTION is coming.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Aug 2017 05:38

schinnas wrote:
shiv wrote:I am close to finishing yet another video about border points at which conflict can take place. I had earlier listed them on this thread (heck too much staring at Google earth has made me fairly familiar with satellite imagery all across the border and LAC )
Thank you, Hakimji. While our army brass would have well studied these on maps and satellite imagery and war gamed each major possibilities, nothing like a well made video to explain the details and possibilities to the jawans and JCOs. I hope all your videos are widely circulated amongst our armed forces.

Thanks for the compliment but my intention was mainly as information for aam non military abdul who hears names like "Namka Chu" and "Ladakh" and has no idea where they are and then reads articles that say "China has built excellent roads all along the border". The latter is echoed even in serious article and no one seems to check.

My info is too incomplete and inaccurate for military use and it has no reference to Indian geography, roads or infra which is what our military will need to know. If at all my videos are going to be useful for the military - it will be like BR (the website) has been used for quick and dirty general reference for history for some young officer looking to make some presentation. I do admit that there are very very few references that can give a general picture of the entire LAC with China from east to west. That is what I intended to do and I am more or less done barring a couple of little things and any bright ideas I might get along the way.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 02 Aug 2017 05:39

pankajs wrote:Think about it. Can it get any better? If I was a Chinese planner I would NEVER settle the border if that is all it takes to induce a collective dhoti shiver in India. I mean ONE guy doing this thing, hopping from pass to pass, could tie up half of IA at the border and keep ~~Indians in perpetual fear of the *mythical* dlagon.~~

This repeated incursions has had Indian Army brigades tied up trying to anticipate where to deploy next to politely tell the Chinese troops to go home....and they start at yet another place of their choosing. This has been happening for ages and has to stop at some point. I think this is one thing that Modi might be looking at (my speculation only). I read recently that the incursion during XI's visit to Modi involved 1000 PLA soldiers, and India deployed about 9000 soldiers in 2 days to push them out.
found a reference (http://thediplomat.com/2017/07/indias-u ... ard-power/)

I really think this Dhok La event should be gamed (if it hasn't already) all the way to a nuclear war (hate to say it).... but gaming it to its gory end may be the only way to limit the degree of warfare, if not prevent hostilities from initiating. To not do so would mean that some one in GOI is very confident China will not escalate beyond a threshold. I dont know what would make China stick to a self-established threshold during a war, especially when it is getting its ass kicked. One possibility is to limit the war to a border war only, like India did in Kargil. This has major problems because China is not Pakistan and this is not a limited engagement like Kargil was (from the opposition's side), and therefore India needs to hit/interdict in Tibet (and if that does not stop China, then to go to beyond that into the plains). I dont see too many possibilities to limit this to just the border. And if singha's scenario of NoKo being sorted out starts to happen, and NoKo does get sorted out, then the emperor can focus his attention on the Dhokla platter. And India faces the same dilemma, only there will be no distraction in the east.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 02 Aug 2017 05:48

This is my question: I hope the IA is returning the compliment with many return visits all across the RightFul Territory of India?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Aug 2017 06:06

It is OK to believe in mythology, but if mythology is going to be used for predicting real world events it is always a good idea to think of scenarios in which the mythology is known to be wrong

In my view this thread has come up with two mythological ideas that give us mental comfort and prevents us from thinking what would happen if they were wrong. I am demanding that people think outside the comfort zone

The first little fib is the idea that the US somehow has all Pakistanis nukes under control. What if it does not?
The second fairy tale is that China magically knows everything about NoKos nukes and will take them out to somehow make it easy for Trump or some such silly reason. What if it does not?

The reason I as "what if it does not" is that as a forum - we like to boast how far ahead we are but we develop these "schoolboy/little child" views of the world where we create "big boys", "high table" the "supapawahs" who have everything under control. Once we reach these assumptions it gets easier for us to play our role as joker/sidekick watching in the sidelines. Note that to an extent many people are victims of ramana's beautiful expression "fractal recursivity" where we mentally subscribe to American exceptionalism and of late the Chinese version of exceptionalism. and increasingly believe that and include that as a factor in our statements. Both versions pretend that there is no one else even as they fail on multiple counts.

No. It may not be that simple. Both Pakistan and NoKo are testing the limits of US power and showing them to be lacking.

NoKo and now India are testing China's power and will show them up as lacking.

China has successfully called the US's bluff and has made Americans believe that they no longer lead - a belief that Americans never had throughout the cold war. America is getting weaker and no one wants to say it except the Chinese. The Chinese are still not top dog although everyone is happy to fall at China's feet mentally.

Only Indians see themselves as a second class nation that does not mater much like a child watching the big boys. If you scan the forum over many months - this is a very definite "general picture" we project on BRF. Right or wrong it is essential to step out of this cage to prove or disprove the existence of the box that we put nations into.

Is this thread meant for imaginative global geopolitics or just China and India?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Aug 2017 06:10

UlanBatori wrote:This is my question: I hope the IA is returning the compliment with many return visits all across the RightFul Territory of India?

Let me reply with a rhetorical question.

Pakistan is regularly reported as breaking the cease fire agreement and resorting to unprovoked firing. Have you ever seen even one report that India fired first?

Chinese are always wandering into Indian territory or "unmarked" territory. Have you ever seen any report that Indians do that?

Conclusion: Indians are always good. Always on the right side

BTW have you see this post, this thread, 25 June 2017
viewtopic.php?p=2175141#p2175141

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 02 Aug 2017 06:41

Thanks, that's what I thought. Indian troops are trained well to studiously stay behind the border at all times EXCEPT when they see Chinese troops getting beaten up by Bhutanese traffic police, old women, toddlers etc. Absolutely.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 02 Aug 2017 06:46

The thing I am really worried about, is Aug. 22. There is a total solar eclipse predicted (maybe it will be night in India, I don't know). But if there is an eclipse, Indian troops will have to lay down weapons. Those are the rules of DharmaYudh, no deviations possible. Do these Godless commies respect anything of the sort, hain?

vnms · Post by **vnms** » 02 Aug 2017 06:47

DavidD wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Eleven's predecessors used the same mistake in attacking war-ravaged Vietnam. 100,000 est. killed, total loss in war. If NoKo army fights, it may be long and bloody for the far less war-like PLA and indeed a resounding defeat. But beyond that I cannot fault that scenario.

OTOH, I cannot see why Eleven is not a worse threat today to India, without having suffered losses in Korea. Global this-that is completely irrelevant, no one is going to intervene against China in support of India. Best bet is a disintegration of China causing friendly Putinski to solve some long-standing issues are Ussuri River, and near NoKo borders.

Plus, friendly SeeAyYeh will seen unprecedented opportunity to start Color Revolutions in Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, North Dharmasala etc.

Word is that in the War Museum in Beijing, one entire floor is devoted to Korean Heroic War of Liberation. Invading noko might cause significant confusion among the public.
What are you talking about, Oceania was always at war with Eastasia

Nice Big Brother reference!

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Aug 2017 06:47

^^ One thing which i really like here is that even as we are bringing in the big guns in the east, the entire J&K sector has seen no disruption and letup in IA OrBAT unlike when Kargil happened.

Looks like we have learnt our lessons after Kargil well and are well prepared for any multiple front issues without significant disruptions

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 02 Aug 2017 06:50

Or Pakis are troubled by seeing Tarrel Than Ocean Deepel than Mountain Fliends getting their asses kicked by Bhutan Traffic Police and old women. Despite vaunted thermonew clear Detergent, sdres are blatantly and brazenly invading China!!

Says so in Gobar Crimes.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 02 Aug 2017 07:29

Deadline for India-China border roads pushed to 2022 - Nayanima Basu, Business Line

At a time when India and China have locked horns over the tri-junction area in the Doklam region of Bhutan for over a month, the government has said that the crucial Indo-China Border Roads are not going to be completed before 2022 much to the agony of the armed forces.

Apparently, the Army has asked the Ministry of Defence for faster implementation of the Indo-China Border Roads stating that it is “imperative” to have the roads “at the earliest” for movement of troops and steady supplies of food and ammunition.

The deadline to complete these roads has now been set for 2022, which the Army says is alarming, sources told BusinessLine.

A total of 73 Indo-China Border Roads along northern borders have been approved for construction. Out of this, 27 roads have been completed while the remaining will be completed by December 2022. While the Defence Ministry is building 46 roads and the remaining 27 are being constructed by the Ministry of Home Affairs.

These were supposed to be completed by 2012.

Reasons for delay

“The delay in execution of road projects is due to delay in forest, wildlife, environment clearance, hard rock stretches, limited working season, delay in land acquisitions, difficulties in availability of construction material and damage due to natural disasters such as flash flood,” Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre said recently.

Last month Minister of State for Home Kiren Rijiju had cited the reasons for delay as limited working season combined with logistic issues due to very high altitude and mountainous, rugged and difficult terrain, natural calamities, delay in forest and wildlife clearances and land acquisition among others.

The government has said it will also be constructing four strategic railway lines along the 4,056-km long border that India shares with China.

“While China has been seriously concentrating on developing the infrastructure around the border areas and moving at a blistering pace in constructing roads and bridges, India is moving at a snail’s pace. The Army has been asking the government to build infrastructure within 50 km of the Line of Actual Control but it has taken ages to complete this task,” said an official on the condition of anonymity.

The roads will have to cover all sectors of the LAC lies across Ladakh, Uttarakhand, Himachal Pradesh, Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh. While all the successive governments have realised the importance of developing infrastructure along the border areas, bureaucratic hurdles and slow environment clearances have hampered the project, sources added.

Another factor, sources said, that has hampered progress is that of manpower shortage in Border Roads Organisation (BRO), which entrusted with the task of constructing 61 out of the 73 roads and total cost is expected to be ₹4,536 crore.

The CAG, in its report released in March, had also pointed out to numerous instances of defective construction of the roads that have been completed.