Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3591
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby nam » 22 Aug 2017 16:16

Bhum La Pass, Tawang

http://thumkar.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/bum-la-pass-tawang-arunachal-pradesh.html

Chini Radar Station at Bhum La, as seen from Indian side.

Image

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 22 Aug 2017 16:48

the guwahati-shillong road was also like that when my father was my age. there were stretches like barapani which were one way. today its mostly a soothing 4 lane affair once some funds and muscle were put behind it. the old british civil engineers went the path of least resistance and lowest work to meet their targets of max gradient and hence these crazy zig zags to maintain their isolated outposts. there is nothing in those hills that cannot be straightened out with sufficient earthwork , tunnels and concrete structures. the old stillwell road in myanmar is like this too. even the famous 36 hairpin road from masinagudi to ooty is like this :D

the swiss and austrians have similar slopes and valleys to cross.

this harks back to Shivs old saying - whenever one Yindu stands up and says we can do this, 10 others beat him up telling him to be humble, 100 reasons why we cannot do it, to respect the goras and now cheenis as better and so on


we fought a air land battle in bangladesh at lightning speed with 100x less resources than khan would use.

Image

Image

Image

rather than crawling like a snake up and down the sides of hills people simply build tunnels and bridges as needed.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Karthik S » 22 Aug 2017 16:58

Singha wrote:the guwahati-shillong road was also like that when my father was my age. there were stretches like barapani which were one way. today its mostly a soothing 4 lane affair once some funds and muscle were put behind it. the old british civil engineers went the path of least resistance and lowest work to maintain their outposts. there is nothing in those hills that cannot be straightened out with sufficient earthwork , tunnels and concrete structures.
the swiss and austrians have similar slopes and valleys to cross.


So was the route from Shillong to upper Shillong, where KV air force station is there.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23955
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 22 Aug 2017 17:07

If we enter India, it will be chaos, says Chinese foreign ministry - IANS
China on Tuesday said there will be "utter chaos" if its troops entered India on the pretext that Indian border infrastructure posed a threat to Beijing.

The Chinese Foreign Ministry said India's logic that Chinese road building in Doklam on the border posed a threat to New Delhi was "ridiculous and vicious".


It said China would in no way allow any country or individual to infringe upon its territorial sovereignty.

"The Indian side illegally crossed the boundary on the excuse of ... Chinese road building. The reason is ridiculous, vicious and facts are clear," Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying said.

"You may think about it. If we tolerate India's ridiculous logic, then anyone who dislikes the activity at his neighbour's home can break into its neighbour's house.

"Does that mean when China thinks that large-scale construction of infrastructure at the border area of India is posing a threat, it can enter Indian territory? Wouldn't that be utter chaos?"

To Indian Home Minister Rajnath Singh's remark that India had never been an aggressor and has had no ambitions to expand its border, Hua responded: "China loves peace and firmly upholds peace. At the same time, we will safeguard our territorial integrity and sovereignty. We allow no country or any individual to infringe upon China's territorial sovereignty."


She asked India to pull back troops from Doklam to resolve the crisis.

"We have said many times that prerequisite basis for the settlement of the trespass is the unconditional withdrawal of the personnel and equipment from the Indian side.

"So we urge the Indian side to take concrete actions and make positive moves to correct its wrongdoing."

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3591
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby nam » 22 Aug 2017 17:12



This I agree with the Chinese. Given that not many are going to go back to Hanland, it will be quite a choas !

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 22 Aug 2017 17:23

given that its a dead end and they have no intention of entering India, why do they want to build this road?

cheen is master at slowly building permanent structures to cement its occupation as seen in the south china sea squatter reefs. we have structures barely 6 feet above sea level which might not survive typhoon but they are getting built and they find people to stay in the hellholes, on rice and fish onree

it starts as a gandhian kuteeram, a vegan hut ... and soon more and more huts come up, moving from wood and straw to concrete, then a jetty , then a airport, then a radar base and then finally its a new missile base too.

Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9252
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Hari Seldon » 22 Aug 2017 17:40



Lemme guess - GoI will treat this latest diplo-fart with the same contempt reserved fro gobar times op-eds.... Lol.

All nice and dandy to have proxies so long as you have plausible deniability. Once that deniability is lost, the cover is blown only. Ask Pak what happened to its infamous 'mujradeen/phreedom fighters' spiel in J&K.

Same-same with cheeni diplomutts in PRC phoren ministry and the gobar times.

Gobar times is a fart release valve and it works well so long as there's plausible deniability that its farts aren't the same as CPC ones.

But with constant crying wolf last 2 months, there's now no difference between CPC farts and gobar times ones onlee. Hence, we're now having smaller countries farting back at PRC - Botswana, Vietnam are merely the tip of the berg only. Or so I hope.

Avtar Singh
BRFite
Posts: 145
Joined: 22 Jan 2017 02:07

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Avtar Singh » 22 Aug 2017 17:58

War fighting/victory is never as easy as any protagonist may claim..... capturing territory and all that. Focussing on easy targets and concentrating on where one might have an advantage has to be the main goal?

I am an outsider so cannot attest to Indian manufacture capabilities but I am pretty sure china can produce stuff.. Sink one of their ships and they will sink one of yours. IN should concentrate on a defensive posture or supporting the Indian Army. Similarly for IAF it should dedicate itself to support and defence of the Indian Army.

As I have said before the achilles heel of the CPC is the PLA.. Loosing soldiers will be the undoing of CPC, not loosing ships and planes they can build quickly.

Blockading their maritime traffic would be a great if India could produce ships like the red army produced tanks in ww2

The Indian Army can match the PLA man for man and they will have the disadvantage of the tibetan plateau. Killing them in numbers should be the goal. Territorial goals should remain defensive and secondary to the goal of killing PLA soldiers. This is the type of attrition is where India can cause pain to china.. they can make everything else.

Any equipment for this goal can be cheaply bought from abroad.. guns ammo etc.. So even if India does not have chinese type manufacture capabilities it can be offset. Purchasing ships and planes is not so easy

Soldier for soldier (numbers) India can match the chinese and this is where India should ensure the fighting occurs. If territory is captured all well and good.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14045
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 22 Aug 2017 18:07

{PLA is an occupying force in Tibet, like Napoleon and the Nazis in Russia}

Exactly. Without the looooong supply trail from Chengdu etc. both the Tibetan and Xinjiang occupying forces will be like Napoleon's Grand Armee in Smolensk. The Tibetans can if they wish get on their donkeys and head for the high mountains. The Uighurs will get on their camels and head to Turkestan. The flatland Hans will freeze and starve in 2 weeks - and start the loooooong downhill skiing to the Yellow River. With the Tibetans helping to reduce their numbers. 380,000 OnlySons dead. 100,000 prisoner in the hands of the gentle Tibetans and the Uighurs.
The PLA stuck in Xinjiang are especially screwed: no place to hide, no place to retreat.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3591
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby nam » 22 Aug 2017 18:54

This is something I mentioned earlier if we do a shallow offensive, coupled with attacks on rail bridges and communication, it will cause a situation where Hans will be isolated on the roof.

And to control the Indian offensive, the troops from major cities have to be drained and rushed towards the border. But the Chinese cannot afford to leave the cities devoid of PLA thugs. If they stay back, the crazy Indians might come down to Lhasa!

If the troops come down to the border, they cannot used their TFTA "mizziles". If the crazy Indians dash towards Lhasa, then their TFTA "mizzile" cannot hit targets in motion! :D

We need to spread this CT far and wide to the Chinese. Let the entire PLA rush to Tibet and freeze their a** waiting for an Indian offensive.

schinnas
BRFite
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11 Jun 2009 09:44

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby schinnas » 22 Aug 2017 19:10

pankajs wrote:Here is an example of the kind of challenge we face to support the deployment at the LAC. This is on the way to Nathu La in Sikkim but it is still passable unlike many other points. Forget about the condition of the road for the moment but how fast can we travel through such a maze? Is this the the kind of Infra that we will use to take the fight to liberate Tibet? Google for Zuluk.

One hillside taken out and you will only have an Heliborne air bridge to resupply LAC.

https://www.google.co.in/maps/place/Nat ... 88.8308771
Image


I have been to Nathu La pass recently just before Doka La issue when Dalai Lama visited AP. There was heavy military movement and fortifications in that area as India half expected Chinese to do some mischief in the Sikkim border to express their displeasure. The single lane road is now being converted to two lanes at a very fast pace. There are enough snow and earth moving equipment. While coming down from Nathu La, there was heavy hailstorm followed by snow storm and the road become un-navigable for civilian vehicles, but army vehicles with their chained tires were doing just fine. Any minor land slide gets cleared in a day or so.

I expect that any hostile attack on the roads will also be repaired quickly as BRO is very very active in maintaining such critical border roads. Due to the surrounding mountains, a good part of the roads are protected from Chinese unless they use missiles with vertical descent - which are very expensive option to cause temporary road damage assuming they actually land on the road. The areas of the road that are visible from Chinese and vulnerable to Chinese artillery are clearly marked in signs so that the convoys can protect themselves.

Unlike NE, in himalayas, the mountains are unstable which makes tunneling and other structures risky. Minor landslides are a common occurrance every few days. As Chinese found in CPEC, no amount of pouring concrete can help with it, but with proper planning and very well planned tunnels in hard rocks one can mitigate the issues to a large extent.

For now, widening the roads to good 2 lanes provides for more than adequate transportation support. Given the slope, vehicles cannot go at cruising speeds anyways.

Suresh S
BRFite
Posts: 788
Joined: 25 Dec 2008 22:19

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Suresh S » 22 Aug 2017 19:43

I do agree with shiv,s wise words about not copying anyone if it is not in our interest and especially if it is harmful.Most major cultures through history have been bhenchods to quote shiv, I agree. These cultures have been after material wealth and it never lasted.

The only major culture which have been a notable exception to this rule is India. Even when we could have conquered the world we chose not to.Instead we chose spiritual development . During the time of Ashoka the great India possessed the means to conquor the world(we had the power during Gupta period as well) but what did we do, we chose spread of Budhism instead. This is our destiny and is/was/will be the right thing to do.Our destiny is spiritual and is a blessing for us and mankind.

Where we must change in my opinion and opinion of many others, shastra ke raksha ke liye agar shastra bhe uthana pare to hechkichana mat ( to protect dharma do not hesitate to pick up weapons and kill ). As doval has very clearly said if there is any conflict of interest chose shakti instead of dharma because without shakti you will not be able to protect your dharma. India,s history teaches us that.

I do understand geography but this is not about nitpicking, it is about the decision to change our approach to problems.NO problem is unsolvable especially geographic ones, ways can be found around these.

We must protect Tibet, it is our dharma and our interest, both are in alignment.We must destroy this undharmic entity called shitistan (paki) at the earliest. We must cut the hans to size,and this entails kicking them out of Tibet.I consider anglos, mujiis worse than chinks as far as dharma is concerned.
Last edited by Suresh S on 22 Aug 2017 22:57, edited 2 times in total.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 22 Aug 2017 19:44

the alps seems very stable - hardly hear of any landslides or avalanches there.
the karakorums are known as even more unstable than himalayas both in avalanches and bad weather.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 22 Aug 2017 19:50

People want an offensive into Tibet? Here's one place - towards mother Sindhu. Watch for 60 seconds from here
https://youtu.be/UNqlLSUg5p8?t=220

TKiran
BRFite
Posts: 940
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 00:22

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 22 Aug 2017 20:54

@chellaney

One example of why trade deficit with China has doubled under Modi: India imports US oil but awards PetroChina the contract to ship the oil.


Money is God for China: Justifying PetroChina deal, Modi's petroleum minister says China still laying out "red carpet to Indian businesses."

https://mobile.twitter.com/Chellaney/st ... 8755201025

https://mobile.twitter.com/Chellaney/st ... 1633105921

As far as business is concerned, Hans have a hold on Modi's balls, very very puzzling how the Han are able to blackmail Modi. N Sitaraman or A Jaitley, or something else.

On one hand Modi is projecting himself as the saviour of Indian economy, but on the other hand ever increasing the trade deficit with China. I suspect that Hans are funding BJP politicians, what else can explain¿?

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13966
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 22 Aug 2017 21:18

Difficult to judge based on one statement. While he might be speaking up for the good of India he at times gives it a slant to push his own narrative.

Let me lay it out the way it looks to me

1. Did India take delivery at the source and awarded the transportation contract?
2. Was the contract awarded fairly i.e awarded at the lowest cost?
3. Were Indian vessels free and available at the same cost or below?

a) It is possible that the Indian contract was to take delivery at Indian ports in which case the transport arrangement was the responsibility of the producer / Trader / middleman. Modi cannot be faulted. All signals green.
b) If Indian vessel was not available then the question of whom to award contract becomes a purely commercial decision. Money will flow out of India so get the lowest price. Here too Modi cannot be faulted. All signals green.
c) Indian vessels were available BUT at a higher cost. This is dicey but one can argue for supporting India firm. Signal Yellow.
d) Indian firm available at same or below the Chinese cost. This is a clear foul by Modi. Signal RED.
e) There is ONE other special case. Indian crude loaded on Indian charted vessel is sailing from Russia to India and a Chinese tanker loaded with crude is on its way from Gulf to China. PetroChina and IOC [I don't know that] do a mid sea transaction where Indian vessel deliver its crude to China while PetroChina delivers its crude to India. Both do this to save on transportation cost. Happens all the time between producers / trader / refiner firms. Modi cannot be faulted. All green on this scenario.

Out of the five scenario Modi is clear in 3, dicey in 1 and fails in 1. We will need details of the deal to come to the correct conclusion.

But why stop and think? Just vent. Facts be dammed.
Last edited by pankajs on 22 Aug 2017 21:23, edited 1 time in total.

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 1150
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shaun » 22 Aug 2017 21:22

TKiran wrote:@chellaney

One example of why trade deficit with China has doubled under Modi: India imports US oil but awards PetroChina the contract to ship the oil.


Money is God for China: Justifying PetroChina deal, Modi's petroleum minister says China still laying out "red carpet to Indian businesses."

https://mobile.twitter.com/Chellaney/st ... 8755201025

https://mobile.twitter.com/Chellaney/st ... 1633105921

As far as business is concerned, Hans have a hold on Modi's balls, very very puzzling how the Han are able to blackmail Modi. N Sitaraman or A Jaitley, or something else.

On one hand Modi is projecting himself as the saviour of Indian economy, but on the other hand ever increasing the trade deficit with China. I suspect that Hans are funding BJP politicians, what else can explain¿?


Dont jump to conclusion based on tweets , whatsapp msgs etc... I guess the below link will enlighten you ...

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/policy/india-china-doklam-indianoil-petrochina-insa/article9824331.ece

TKiran
BRFite
Posts: 940
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 00:22

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 22 Aug 2017 21:26

In the first three instances also why do we have to import oil from US and not gelf if cost is the main concern?

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13966
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 22 Aug 2017 21:50

schinnas wrote:I have been to Nathu La pass recently just before Doka La issue when Dalai Lama visited AP. There was heavy military movement and fortifications in that area as India half expected Chinese to do some mischief in the Sikkim border to express their displeasure. The single lane road is now being converted to two lanes at a very fast pace. There are enough snow and earth moving equipment. While coming down from Nathu La, there was heavy hailstorm followed by snow storm and the road become un-navigable for civilian vehicles, but army vehicles with their chained tires were doing just fine. Any minor land slide gets cleared in a day or so.

I expect that any hostile attack on the roads will also be repaired quickly as BRO is very very active in maintaining such critical border roads. Due to the surrounding mountains, a good part of the roads are protected from Chinese unless they use missiles with vertical descent - which are very expensive option to cause temporary road damage assuming they actually land on the road. The areas of the road that are visible from Chinese and vulnerable to Chinese artillery are clearly marked in signs so that the convoys can protect themselves.

Unlike NE, in himalayas, the mountains are unstable which makes tunneling and other structures risky. Minor landslides are a common occurrance every few days. As Chinese found in CPEC, no amount of pouring concrete can help with it, but with proper planning and very well planned tunnels in hard rocks one can mitigate the issues to a large extent.

For now, widening the roads to good 2 lanes provides for more than adequate transportation support. Given the slope, vehicles cannot go at cruising speeds anyways.

Good to know! But we need more and faster progress. I did read somewhere that major portion was not in the direct LOS of the Chinese arty.

BTW, if the Chinese are allowed to setup at Dokala Plateau and per some chance *push* IA off Doka La they will have a good field of fire on the road. Dokalam plateau is critical in that respect. It will allow them to cut Sikkim off from the rest of India.

We need to have multiple paths to critical areas as also much straighter paths.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13966
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 22 Aug 2017 22:00

pankajs wrote:BTW, if the Chinese are allowed to setup at Dokala Plateau and per some chance *push* IA off Doka La they will have a good field of fire on the road. Dokalam plateau is critical in that respect. It will allow them to cut Sikkim off from the rest of India.

Looking west from Dokalam Plateau.

https://www.google.co.in/maps/place/Nat ... 88.8308771

Image

samirdiw
BRFite
Posts: 147
Joined: 18 Jul 2017 22:00

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby samirdiw » 22 Aug 2017 22:04

pankajs wrote:
Have you looked at the geography of Tibet (North Dharamshala) and why on earth we would want to build roads via North Dharamshala to reach central Asia? The roads to central Asia are Afghanistan/Pakistan. PoK and Gilgit is what we need to get
What gave you the idea that controlling Tibet would grant us access to CA?


If part of Tibet can be freed especially the western part(Utsang) , Aksai, and the mountainous areas to the north of it then you have a route to Central asia via Kyrghysthan. Don't need to control the Hotan/Kashgar plains. It will also be difficult in that case for the Chinese to wrest it back.

This would also separate the Chinese and Pak far apart and unable to coordinate in the same area.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13966
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 22 Aug 2017 22:09

pankajs wrote:BTW, if the Chinese are allowed to setup at Dokala Plateau and per some chance *push* IA off Doka La they will have a good field of fire on the road. Dokalam plateau is critical in that respect. It will allow them to cut Sikkim off from the rest of India.

Not correct. There are other routes to Sikkim and there is another approach from Gangtok.

samirdiw
BRFite
Posts: 147
Joined: 18 Jul 2017 22:00

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby samirdiw » 22 Aug 2017 22:16

ldev wrote:
Singha wrote:
we can divide up tibet perhaps into a south tibet republic allied to india and a 'democratic' north tibet vassal state of the han. 50-50 in the spirit of panchsheel and asian brotherhood they so loudly proclaim. this was exactly what banditji should have done. and this is what was done by wiser heads in the case of north and south korea and east and west germany and north and south yemen.

NOBODY with any sense gives up control of land, no matter what value or lack of it.

even tiny rocks like diego garcia and reunion islands are now strategic assets in the IOR.


Exactly, even partial control of Tibet, say the southern part would give India some leeway. In a battle you may suffer some reverses, you should be able to fall back even 50 kms if needed on the Tibet plateau, regroup, consolidate and counter attack. At this point in time, if you fall back 50 kms from Dokala, you will be in Siliguri.



Concur on the same. In a normal situation with two countries within the reasonable strength of each other would have split up the Tibetian plateau. Trying to control the whole of Tibet close to Chinese mainlands gives us the same logistics and reinforcement challenges that Chinese should have trying to control a region so far away. Defending halfway through (up to the Yangtse) should have been possible as it equally far away from the main population for both countries.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13966
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 22 Aug 2017 22:19

samirdiw wrote:
pankajs wrote:
Have you looked at the geography of Tibet (North Dharamshala) and why on earth we would want to build roads via North Dharamshala to reach central Asia? The roads to central Asia are Afghanistan/Pakistan. PoK and Gilgit is what we need to get
What gave you the idea that controlling Tibet would grant us access to CA?


If part of Tibet can be freed especially the western part(Utsang) , Aksai, and the mountainous areas to the north of it then you have a route to Central asia via Kyrghysthan. Don't need to control the Hotan/Kashgar plains. It will also be difficult in that case for the Chinese to wrest it back.

This would also separate the Chinese and Pak far apart and unable to coordinate in the same area.

Google map tells me Western Tibet, Aksai and the surrounding area do NOT have direct access to Central Asia. Perhaps you can share you map with markings.

Even POk doesn't give us direct access to Kyrgyzstan but only to Afghanistan/Tajikistan but that should allow us to access Central Asia. Even then the question remains what use is such a route when it goes through such an impassable territory but it is direct access FWIW.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 22 Aug 2017 22:55

samirdiw wrote: In a normal situation with two countries within the reasonable strength of each other would have split up the Tibetian plateau.

Let me restate what I have said before. I am not asking anyone to agree with me - these are my views. For starters I am not a proponent of the idea of continuous human development from savages (of Vedic times as a certain poster said?) to modern man and something even more advanced later on. What I am getting at is that there is a reason why some parts of the world have a very sparse human population. Examples are Tibet, Antarctica, Alaska, Gobi, Sahara and the sea bed. Human life itself is linked to some needs and where those needs are difficult to meet, human life can only be sustained at great cost and with some degree of environmental degradation.

Tibet is a terrible place. Of all the bad places, southern Tibet, bordering India is the best - with Lhasa and other cities in valleys at a "low" altitude of 3500 meters or so. Northern Tibet is bad - with permafrost. Western Tibet/Aksai Hind is terrible because it is even higher averaging 5 kilometers. Tibetans, over thousands of years have evolved genes that help them survive more easily than non Tibetans inside Tibet. Even plants don;t groow well - so Tibet produces just enough to feed a low population and only Barley and Yak milk. The Chinese have brought in goats (I think) and that s really screwing up the grazing environment but then the Chinese pretend that there is not much of a pollution or environmental problem in China. Big deal, Even Americans pretend the same way.

Let me pose a "riddle me this"

On the one hand we talk so much about the Chinese needing to put up a great show and save face. Tibet is such a hostile place that I doubt the Chinese are having an easy time settling there. They are putting up a great show of tearing down all old Tibetan residences and building cities and roads and railways and dams to show their great development. But the fact is that plateau is hostile and normal non Tibetan humans are not going to develop genes to live there any time soon.

I think this business of shared control of Tibet is not going to be easy for any outsiders. I don;t think may people understand what it means to try and live in Tibet - or maintain a population in Tibet and we are getting mighty impressed by the Chinese showing off as though they are really enjoying themselves and Tibet. Knowing the Chinese I am sceptical

samirdiw
BRFite
Posts: 147
Joined: 18 Jul 2017 22:00

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby samirdiw » 22 Aug 2017 23:33

Sorry I meant Tajikistan. Technically this is part of Xinjiang(Uyghur) edges along with Aksai but in the same contiguous mountain area(Kunlun Mountains) of Tibet. Control of Utsang-Tibet not only controls source of our rivers for ever but also makes it extremely difficult for China to target this Tajik route from only 1 side - Uyghur plains

It also allows targeting of Pok from 2 sides.

Image
Last edited by samirdiw on 23 Aug 2017 20:54, edited 1 time in total.

samirdiw
BRFite
Posts: 147
Joined: 18 Jul 2017 22:00

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby samirdiw » 22 Aug 2017 23:42

Shiv, leaving aside the central portions of Tibet for now what will it take to control areas upto Yarlang Tsangpo and Indus joining near mt Kailash thus controlling our water sources? Does our current military capability support that?

Image

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54452
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 23 Aug 2017 01:42

T.Kiran you are asking political questions not suitable to this thread. We have whole GDF for such questions.

MurthyB
BRFite
Posts: 704
Joined: 18 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: "Visa Officer", Indian Consulate #13,451, Khost Province, Afghanistan

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby MurthyB » 23 Aug 2017 03:07

This whole idea of a buffer state makes no sense from another point of view. In many ways, India already has buffer states like Ladakh, Sikkim, and Arunachal Pradesh. These are populated by people who would be more inconspicuous in Beijing than in Delhi. Yet, they are Indians, and India being a righteous state treats them as full Indian citizens, as it should, and defends that territory as fiercely as it would any place else in "India proper".

The only way a buffer state makes any sense is if you are willing to make those people expendable second class citizens in the way that Red China does to Tibet or the shitistanis do to the NWFP. If Tibet were part of India, Tibetans would be first class Indian citizens, and would have to be defended just as fiercely as "south Tibetans" are defended today. There would be no "buffer".

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 13374
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Suraj » 23 Aug 2017 03:26

A buffer state isn't about the people, but just the territorial space to absorb reverses. Just because PRC treats buffer states as expendable people and landmass does not mean the definition applies universally.

It is in India's interest to take back portions of Tibet or other bordering areas from China. At the very least, our foreign policy needs to emphasize continuously keeping the place unstable for Beijing, such that any weakening of central hold results in sections of that landmass transferring to Indian outright control or suzerainty.

williams
BRFite
Posts: 447
Joined: 21 Jun 2006 20:55

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby williams » 23 Aug 2017 03:27

Yea buffer state is an old world concept. Generally a more aggressive power will grab these buffer states when they get a fair chance and then we are back to square one.

samirdiw
BRFite
Posts: 147
Joined: 18 Jul 2017 22:00

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby samirdiw » 23 Aug 2017 03:36

williams wrote:Yea buffer state is an old world concept. Generally a more aggressive power will grab these buffer states when they get a fair chance and then we are back to square one.


Yep something that PRC did and we should have met them half way. Unfortunately, at that time Nehruji was more involved in bitching to Lhasa about not paying back in time for the weapons they had bought from us.

MurthyB
BRFite
Posts: 704
Joined: 18 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: "Visa Officer", Indian Consulate #13,451, Khost Province, Afghanistan

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby MurthyB » 23 Aug 2017 03:43

From a Chinese POV, the fact that the Dalai Lama has been in asylum in India for the past 55 years is quite unsettling, so in that space, India certainly has kept it unstable at a diplomatic level. "Territorial space to absorb losses" implies that the place is somehow second class, and losing it doesn't matter. Noone will think of Sikkim or Ladakh that way today. So ultimately, that's a mirage. If portions of Tibet are in Indian control, then they will be India, and will be thought of that way.

MurthyB
BRFite
Posts: 704
Joined: 18 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: "Visa Officer", Indian Consulate #13,451, Khost Province, Afghanistan

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby MurthyB » 23 Aug 2017 03:46

I am not opposed to Tibet joining India as it is an Indic civilizational cousin, but it won't be a "buffer" to anything. India's value add will be to let the Tibetans preserve their culture and civilization and be free.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 13374
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Suraj » 23 Aug 2017 05:21

There absolutely is 'first and second class' territory in warfare . Don't bring in relative morals here. There's nothing to be squeamish about . It's not always a fixed designation . For the Russians at one time even Moscow was a buffer space as they let Napoleon overextend himself .

Geographical space and time lets you retreat and regroup . Having the right buffer spaces protects the hinterland . It reduces the costs in terms of manpower and fortifications needed, since the buffer itself accomplishes the task of extending distances . Distance means more effort , more time and more notice to respond .

Holding Tibet as buffer enables greater notice . Its unnecessary to man every last sqkm of border there . Its as hard for them to attack us as for us to defend . Further , their own tactics help - harass them elsewhere constantly and keep them preoccupied, just as they do to us .

Bade
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7212
Joined: 23 May 2002 11:31
Location: badenberg in US administered part of America

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Bade » 23 Aug 2017 05:56

If India gobbles up sizable chunks of Tibet as suggested by many in the process of a full prolonged war with China, has anyone imagined what happens to Nepal now surrounded entirely by India. ;-) How can a country within a country survive...Redux Hyderabad.

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2333
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby manjgu » 23 Aug 2017 06:08

a) totally agree with Shiv... i often stay in ladhak but after late october it is v tough to stay there and all the people from plains usually leave ... i would imagine tibet to be much worse... i dont believe we can adequately control tibet given the geography. the best we can achieve in a short sharp conflict is to straighten the border and I believe these are IA war objectives as well . b) i didnt know ganges , yamuna, sutlej come out of tibet as shown in the map!!?? maybe indus yes and brahamaputra surely. i dont believe han is ever going to control indus... their pet dog will get affected terribly. Brahamaputa's major catchment areas are ahead of china though they could selectively release water to flood downstream areas.

Bade
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7212
Joined: 23 May 2002 11:31
Location: badenberg in US administered part of America

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Bade » 23 Aug 2017 06:14

People do live in Tawang and similar elevations all along the Northeast. With proper infrastructure one can live in Ladakh too. It just cannot be worse than trying to live on the moon or mars. Yes, it will take effort and hence may not turn out to be economical given alternatives.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 23 Aug 2017 07:18

samirdiw wrote:Shiv, leaving aside the central portions of Tibet for now what will it take to control areas upto Yarlang Tsangpo and Indus joining near mt Kailash thus controlling our water sources? Does our current military capability support that?

First a little correction. I think the river itself - coming from near Manasarovar is the Tsangpo. The big bend (U-turn) in the Tsangpo river north of eastern Arunachal Pradesh is called the Yarlung Tsangpo

There are two separate questions here
1. What will it take to control areas upto....etc
2. "Controlling out water sources"

I will take up the 2nd part first because it has been brought up for the second time. I have been locating and marking out Chinese dams and hydel generating stations in Tibet. I have found about 6-7 large ones on tributaries to the Tsangpo, the Subansri and some other river that does not come to India. Each dam (sometimes 2 dams) are on ONE tributary. So I started marking out tributaries and here I was defeated. There are so soo many tributaries that it is a pain to count. Even downstream of those damn there are so many tributaries that no nation can actually build dams on all of them. Some of these are simply streams that pour down steep mountains in inhospitable zones.

But forget all this. If you look carefully - you find that the Brahmaputra river is made up from 3 rivers in Eastern Arunachal Pradesh. The Easternmost is the Lohit (near Walong), west of that is the Siang river - which is the continuation of the Yarlung Tsangpo and to the west of that is the Subansri. These rivers get so much water from the mountains on the Indian side that I seriously doubt if Chinese dams can significantly affect inflow into India and to an extent I suspect the water shivering could be another example of dhoti shivering about roads running just next to the border

As regards "control" up to the Tsangpo - the eastern side is very mountainous and forested and even the Chinese have not managed much infra. In fact there is a town called Bowo on the main Chinese highway which is connected by a road running south through mountains to a town called Medog that is 20 km from the Arunachal Pradesh border near where the Chinese Tsangpo becomes the Siang in India. Medog is still cut off from main China for 6 months a year. Recently (last 6-7 years) the Chinese have built a 3 km tunnel that makes connectivity a little better. But it is far from excellent because the terrain is very bad.

In the west - trying to control Tsangpo is the same as trying to control souther Tibet. The access to Tibet from India is only in a few places. I have listed these access points in 2 videos - one is about Chinese roads to the border and the other is about "points of confrontation" between India and China.

I think anyone who wants quick and dirty information about where India can enter Tibet and equally where the Chinese can enter India should try these two 6 to 7 minute long videos. These will be the main access/attack routes. Other areas are quite minor with formidable mountains as barrier

Chinese roads near the Tibet-Arunachal border-a Google Earth Study

Points of Confrontation in Tibet Between India and China

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 23 Aug 2017 07:31

the eastern part of arunachal and adjacent tibet is a geological oddity as within a couple 100km all the eastward flowing rivers take a steep 90+ degree turn to the SW. the british had a hard time pin pointing exactly where the tsangpo emerged in assam from the hills there were so many rivers ... they floated buoys down from the tibet side in hopes of recovering them in assam by their watchmen. many failed expeditions were mounted up the impassable gorges from the assam end.

looking east this here is the mighty forge from which the brahmaputra is formed

https://earth.google.com/web/@27.742294 ... 184973t,0r


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest