Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 28 Aug 2017 15:53

My view on the MEA statement is that Statement released by both sides where done in consultation so as to prevent a loss of face to the Chinese.

Their "India has withdrawn" and "China will continue to patrol" otherwise wouldn't have worked. Last time they tried a stunt about Indian withdrawl it was met with a full throated denial from the Indian side thus putting paid to their self concocted face saver.
Last edited by pankajs on 28 Aug 2017 15:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby JE Menon » 28 Aug 2017 15:53

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41070767

The BBC spin is as expected. In these matters, they will tow the party line - i.e. Whitehall dispensation and long-term psyops imperatives.

However, the implication of the article, essentially a silly one is that India pulled back for nothing. If that was the case, we would not have gone in to begin with and withdrawn from a position of strategic advantage.

The Chinese statements are typical "kung fu movie restaurant scene" output with poor sound dubbing.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby JE Menon » 28 Aug 2017 15:54

arun wrote:
JE Menon wrote:>>What has happened is that China and India have both went back to pre June 2017 status quo in the region.


There is no explicit Official Statement from both side explicitly stating that both sides have pulled troops back to the June 2017 status qua and also that the PRC has stopped the road building that triggered the crisis.

When I see a vague statement such as the one put out by our MEA I become circumspect about claiming victory for my side :wink:


Arun, that is a misquote. I did not say that. I was quoting an earlier post by schinnas just above. Kindly revise.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby manjgu » 28 Aug 2017 16:03

a) those who want to conquer Lhasa can go ahead... b) the statement has been deliberately kept ambigous for both sides to claim victory but the fact is we never claimed it was our land ( india)..hans said its their land( china). India walking out of Bhutan and china walking out of china !! to the old positions. c) as i said Doval/Modi can never to unilaterally withdraw from a dominating position. Gen. Bakshi has just tweeted that China calculated its not the best place or time to take panga with India.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 28 Aug 2017 16:04

Why there has to be a diplomatic solution for a military stand-off? Diplomacy is definitely required to put forth our view on the military stand-off. The only reason we went there was to hold on to that place (Doklam) for ever as we don't trust the diplomatic sweet talk of China which never regards anything not in its interest.

If we could hold on for 1-2 years, that strategic place would have been permanently a lever when talking with Han China.

They have already started claiming sovereignty over Doka Lam. The next week they will bring their road construction equipment. I am the first one here to predict this.

Throughout the history of independent India, our military gains are lost to superior diplomacy of our adversaries. This is not any different. The whole world is watching us, atleast we started getting some respect in those quarters who were eagerly waiting to see if India could do what they could not do. But no... Same to same...

Now Han will demand removal of our COAS, who dared to challenge the Han. If this is not loss of face, what is??

Why go there when you can't hold on??

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Hari Seldon » 28 Aug 2017 16:04

Rest assured, all this is to get NM to attend that BRICS dimmit in PRC.

Likely the turds will pull some cheap stunt during NM's visit. And our dork media here will go ga-ga with #Blow2Modi, #ModiSnubbed and what not.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby arun » 28 Aug 2017 16:06

JE Menon wrote:
arun wrote:
There is no explicit Official Statement from both side explicitly stating that both sides have pulled troops back to the June 2017 status qua and also that the PRC has stopped the road building that triggered the crisis.

When I see a vague statement such as the one put out by our MEA I become circumspect about claiming victory for my side :wink:


Arun, that is a misquote. I did not say that. I was quoting an earlier post by schinnas just above. Kindly revise.


Oops, your post had no indication that it was schinnas comment. Have now revised my post to reflect that it was schinnas and not yours.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Yagnasri » 28 Aug 2017 16:07

No need attend BRICS meet anyway. Send SS there. There is no need for that. Remember all the insults they have hurled at us for the last two months. What are we going to gain by BRICS anyway?

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby schinnas » 28 Aug 2017 16:09

JE Menon wrote:>>What has happened is that China and India have both went back to pre June 2017 status quo in the region.

This is the only thing we need clarity on.


As I stated in one earlier post, the full details will come little later. The Chinese, despite all their spin have not said anything about road construction. They have indicated that they will be redeploying troops (meaning withdraw their troops back) while continuing to patrol as they have done in the past. After several weeks or months, the full details and the bargain will be known in parts to the public.

The unusually brief and ambiguous Indian statement is offering a clear face saver to the Chinese. What the Chinese promised in exchange for availing the face saver is unclear and we can guess it only after a few months. My guess here is that Chinese would not renew their technical hold on adding Masood Azar to the UN terrorist list going forward. k

If that is indeed the bargain it is worth it. It drives a wedge between Pukis and China and Pukis will start behaving less irrationally as they know that even their tallel than mountain friends cannot have their back 100%.

Updated later:
Q: How can India trust Cheen to hold their end of the bargain?
Again my humble guess (dont have access to chaiwalas that know the details) is that Russia probably acted as the mediator.

After flaunting how we have called Cheen bluff for three months, it will be difficult for jingos to digest what DDM and bulk of international media will spin as India blinking first. Some will be downright disappointed about India not pursuing an armed conflict given our seeming tactical advantages which we may not continue to have after a decade or two due to evolution of warfare and technology. Unfortunately, we will have to just wait a few more months before truth trickles down. If Masood Azar's goose is cooked or any similar indications happens in next few months, one can be sure that China blinked in exchange for a face saver.
Last edited by schinnas on 28 Aug 2017 16:19, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby sum » 28 Aug 2017 16:11

^^ Has anyone checked the position of the Bhutanese on these( since its their land) and what was the position they were asking India to take during negotiations ?

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 28 Aug 2017 16:13

Hari Seldon wrote:Rest assured, all this is to get NM to attend that BRICS dimmit in PRC.

Likely the turds will pull some cheap stunt during NM's visit. And our dork media here will go ga-ga with #Blow2Modi, #ModiSnubbed and what not.

Hari gaaru, it's a blow to Modi, Modi Snubbed, why can't you accept the reality?

Han have been trying to secure Lhasa by occupying Doklam and Tawang, because those two are strategically important militarily to stop India to cut Han China to size.

All they did was psywar and Modi/Doval chickened out. It's a fact, let's face it rather than seeking solace in calling media "dork"

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Yagnasri » 28 Aug 2017 16:13

Why do we need to allow China to save its face? Did China given any respect for us in the last two months or do anyone here think that they will respect us for allowing them to save their face?

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby deejay » 28 Aug 2017 16:16

Yagnasri wrote:Why do we need to allow China to save its face? Did China given any respect for us in the last two months or do anyone here think that they will respect us for allowing them to save their face?


Very good question Yag Ji. Why is it imortant to let China save their face? What about the fact that our men actually dominated the territory?

Is the negotiating table a place where we will give up our gains to save China's face?

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby nam » 28 Aug 2017 16:17

The road has been build by Chinis atleast since 2005. Bhutan allowed Chinese creeping in and India could not convince Bhutan to stop the Chinese.

Forward to 2012, Bhutan got a deal in 2012 to maintain status quo until there is a resolution. So when the Chini tried to change the status quo, it used the 2012 treaty and asked India to stop the Chinese. It is obviously up to the Bhutanese what ways they use to make sure China stick to status quo.

This means if the Chinese try to change the status quo again.. Bhutan can again call upon India to stop the Chinese AND technically anywhere within Bhutan, as it is up to them if they call on us or Americans or Martians to maintain the status quo.

We were not in Dolam to capture it. We always claimed Dolam belongs too Bhutan. The only time we would have captured it, if Bhutan had taken the 10 billion bribe and told us to leave.

Now Bhutan knows it cannot be bullied by the Chinese and it cannot back stab India. World now knows India cannot be bulled by the 12 trillion super-paw.

And the world now knows PLA shaking mountains gives only hot air.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 28 Aug 2017 16:19

On the Chinese face saver. That is a calculation MAD made.

1. We neither are aware of what was discussed not the details of the agreement.
2. Then there are issues between India and China beyond Doklam. I remember someone in GOI saying that we were discussing not just Doklam but all issues.
3. Then there are calculations beyond India China that go into the over all policy making.

Unless we have access to all of that we can only guess. But I expect some details will be given out or leaked in the future.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby nam » 28 Aug 2017 16:24

On the road construction, some Indian reporter who believe in Chinese more than us, will ask MEA the question to "put them in a spot".

It will be replied in clear, just like it was replied for Chinese claim of "only 48 Indian soldiers and a bulldozer left.."

Has it ever happen that India MEA first statement on any topic is clear as water? It takes days for everyone to understand what they trying to say.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Lisa » 28 Aug 2017 16:32

The Hun has blinked. If not, then where is the road he was building on chinese land?

EVERYTHING else is smoke and mirrors. IMHO, I do very much pity those posters who are quoting chinese official and nonofficial sources. 224 pages on and they yet, STILL depend on chinese news for their information. Let alone that they are seeking explanations from official Indian Government sources to contradict such trash.Truly a pity!

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 28 Aug 2017 16:49

But But..
What about this?
chinas pla readying missiles stun indian air power

and this?

Long columns of chinese armoured vehicles were spotted at a highway in Tibet this week.
Image
Image

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Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Peregrine » 28 Aug 2017 16:50

From Chinese - Clapistani - Mouth piece

Only India pulled back all personnel, China troops continue to patrol Doklam region: Beijing

Image

BEIJING: China on Monday appeared to contradict New Delhi's claims of mutual troops' withdrawal from Doklam region, saying that only Indian troops have been pulled out from the border.

Chinese foreign ministry said Indian troops had withdrawn to the Indian side of a disputed border area where the two countries´ soldiers had been locked in stand-off for more than two months.

Ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying said, “Chinese troops will continue to patrol the disputed Doklam region.”

Image

Earlier, Indian Ministry of External Affairs claimed Beijing and New Delhi had agreed to bring to an end a prolong stand-off at the Sikkim border that began in June.

It said, "On this basis, expeditious disengagement of border personnel at the face-off site at Doklam has been agreed to and is on-going."

Image

However, Beijing contradicted New Delhi's mutual troops withdrawal statement, saying only India has pulled back all border personnel and equipment from the border standoff site at Doklam.

The move comes ahead of a summit of the BRICS nations – a grouping that also includes Brazil, Russia and South Africa – in China early next month.

Comments : I only hope that this is a "Chinese Trail Balloon.

Cheers Image

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 28 Aug 2017 16:51


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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby amohan2001 » 28 Aug 2017 16:52

What if we just intruded into Chinese area just for fun of it and stayed their for 70 days. That is what China has been doing all along by their incursions in India. I think that itself is a welcome move to give China taste of their own medicine.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 28 Aug 2017 16:54


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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby nam » 28 Aug 2017 16:57

shiv wrote:Long columns of chinese armoured vehicles were spotted at a highway in Tibet this week.


The Chinis created a propaganda that these were take by a "citizen".

They wanted us to believe some guy in a barren land happens to bump in to the "Chinese Armada". In one of the photo, you can make out from reflection, that the guy taking the photo was wearing a cap.... like a soldier.
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Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Peregrine » 28 Aug 2017 17:05

Beijing claims 'India pulls out forces' from border

NEW DELHI: China claimed on Monday that Indian troops have been pulled out from the border area in Doklam, after India earlier put out a statement that both countries are withdrawing their personnel.

China's foreign ministry, in fact, went one further, saying its troops will continue to patrol the border and added that is "pleased" that Indian troops have withdrawn from Doklam, the site of the border standoff, reported AFP and Reuters.

While Xinhua, China's official news agency, said 'China confirms India's withdrawal of border personnel', People's Daily, the mouthpiece of the Chinese Communist Party said 'China and India agree to end over 2-month-long standoff in Donglang'. The latter then added 'China confirms India has withdrawn its troops.'

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China Global Television network says China and India agree to end Donglang(Doklam) border standoff


Beijing's comments came within an hour of India's announcement that both sides have begun withdrawing troops.

"...expeditious disengagement of border personnel at the face-off site at Doklam has been agreed to and is on-going," said a statement from India's external affairs ministry, which termed the process the 'Doklam Disengagement Understanding'.

Cheers Image

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby anupmisra » 28 Aug 2017 17:20

yensoy wrote:Two boxers go into the ring. The lights go out just when the bout begins. Audience can hear punches being thrown but can't see sh!t.

When the timer beeps, one boxer walks out confidently saying "we had a bout but it was a draw".

The other boxer limps out with a bloody nose and broken teeth and says "I won".

You decide what happened.


The audience got duped. That's what happened.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 28 Aug 2017 17:24

Peregrine wrote: China Global Television network says China and India agree to end Donglang(Doklam) border standoff

Butt ..butt ... how can that be? Wasn't is supposed to be No talk, ityadi without an Indian troop pullout? The CGTN beepul need to be sent to the Gobi dezert for leducation.
Last edited by pankajs on 28 Aug 2017 17:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby anupmisra » 28 Aug 2017 17:26

manjgu wrote:Gen. Bakshi has just tweeted that China calculated its not the best place or time to take panga with India.


Next, Laddakh!

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Philip » 28 Aug 2017 17:30

Media reports a week ago suggesting that we had quietly discussed the situ with Russia and asked them to persuade the Chinese to accept a compromise perhaps has worked.At stake if the spat was not immediately resolved was the threat (possibly) from India to screw the BRICS summit in style! There are several ways in which India could've done it,not go,go without the PM sending a troubleshooter like Dr.SS, the Pres. or even the PM going but ticking off the Chinese on their home soil in full view of the international media.Such a loss of face would've been meat and drink to XI GIns' enemies,trying to stop him from becoming China's next "Chairman" after Mao.XI Gins has already forced the PLA to call him as such.

Russia,chief promoter of BRICS and Pres. Putin ,would also lose face if the summit was wrecked by India.Worse still,we could've threatened to pull out of bRICS altogether if the Chinese did not relent.The worst scenario for China is for India ,thus far not an official military ally of the US,openly join an anti-China mil front challenging it in the Indo-Asia-Pacific region. This would be misfortune of the highest level brought about by the Chinese arrogance themselves. Even though Russo-Sino relations have vastly improved,it is more on a commercial basis.Fat chance of Russia coming to China's aid in a Sino-US spat!

Secondly,apart from India's dpl options,was the fact that the Indian armed forces also had options! Apartf rom stonewalling the Chinese in the Himalayas,India could've launched spl. forces attacks against important Chinese mil. centres in Tibet,even in Lhasa,which would send the native Tibetans into ecstasy.Plus,the Indian navy held all the cards in the IOR and could've struck at Chinese shipping at leisure,setting Chinese oil tankers ablaze,"a string of blazing pearls" all along the IOR and Malacca Straits. India would get huge intel help from the US and its allies had such a scenario happened and had an attack been made against the Liao Ning or other Chinese warships in the Indo-China Sea-which it considers its own backyard,loss of face would've been devastating, This vulnerability of China in the IOR was commented upon by some Chinese analysts in oblique warnings to their regime of the grave risks involved.
Such a catastrophic loss of military face by the Chinese would set its global domination plans at least a decade if not more and India's stature would dramatically rise. It would also have seen the fall of XI Gins and his cronies.

faced with such eventualities,where India held a long "menu" in its hand,China wisely postponed its aggro sparked off at Doklam.But this is not an end top the dispute."Hostilities: have only been postponed. Watch the Chinese attitude post BRICS. The dragon will yet again reveal its claws.
Last edited by Philip on 28 Aug 2017 17:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby samirdiw » 28 Aug 2017 17:38

RajeshA wrote:The main Indian complaint was about Chinese road-building in Doklam. If the Chinese have assured to desist from doing so in the immediate future, then Indians don't need to be deployed there.


The road can be a problem only if it is NOT Chinese territory as per India and Bhutan. India never objected or can object for China to build roads on what it considers as Chinese territory. By agreeing to Chinese patrolling (which it officially had not before) it has only consolidated Chinese stand in my opinion. Under more favourable conditions (say internal problems or non bjp) they will continue the rest.

Without getting firm concession on China solving this with dialogue with Bhutan this was again grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby anupmisra » 28 Aug 2017 17:42

The chini statement is for home consumption as we all know. It is framed for the masses that do not have the freedom to access the Internet. The chini statement is not far from the facts. But it is only half the truth. Focus on what was not said.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Philip » 28 Aug 2017 17:47

As said above,the issue has only been postponed.The Chins may patrol,but when they next "pitch tents",or apply pitch on the ground in road building,the sparks will fly. there is nothing to stop India from also "patrolling" Bhutanese territory at any time in the future. Though we could've embarrassed China in many ways had it come to blows as mentioned above,we too were taken by surprise.Right now we're militarily unprepared for a long war. Efforts to close the gaps are being taken on a war footing. Postponing the inevitable clash benefits India more than China. As the pics reveal,the military buildup by China in Tibet is unrelenting. We've got to see what happens after BRICS and the party congress. The Chinese can swiftly accuse us of welshing on the Doklam disengagement agreement at any time,spewing forth their litany of lies. This is just a thaw in the Indo-China Cold War-2.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 28 Aug 2017 17:54

samirdiw wrote:
RajeshA wrote:The main Indian complaint was about Chinese road-building in Doklam. If the Chinese have assured to desist from doing so in the immediate future, then Indians don't need to be deployed there.


The road can be a problem only if it is NOT Chinese territory as per India and Bhutan. India never objected or can object for China to build roads on what it considers as Chinese territory. By agreeing to Chinese patrolling (which it officially had not before) it has only consolidated Chinese stand in my opinion. Under more favourable conditions (say internal problems or non bjp) they will continue the rest.

Without getting firm concession on China solving this with dialogue with Bhutan this was again grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory

When India accepted officially that China is one of the claimant to the area it accepted that China has a right to patrol that area. The Chinese claim to that areas has been accepted long back and it has been part of the negotiations between China and Bhutan.
Last edited by pankajs on 28 Aug 2017 18:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby samirdiw » 28 Aug 2017 17:59

Philip wrote:Right now we're militarily unprepared for a long war. Efforts to close the gaps are being taken on a war footing. Postponing the inevitable clash benefits India more than China.


Thanks Philip. This does make sense. Taking a step back to take two steps forward in future can be a reasonable strategy.

Joint patrolling by both (Bhutan and China) could have been added to the statement. Now Bhutan's position in any negotiation with China is a little weakened.

btw minor wars always help the perceived weaker side to assess itself and keep building. A stalemate in war with China would help India more just like a India-Pak war that leads to a stalemate helps Pakistan more.

Giving stand on the ground for some two-bit terrorist that are dime a dozen or face saving for Xi without anything in return would be absolute bullshit though.
Last edited by samirdiw on 28 Aug 2017 19:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby JE Menon » 28 Aug 2017 18:19

https://twitter.com/MEAIndia/status/902148971136655360

Further explanation from the MEA

One is tempted to put a grinning smiley out there. There is enough in the tone and content of this for all to be satisfied within reason.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Arjun » 28 Aug 2017 18:23

Aside from all the standard babu-speak, what the f*** does this new gobbledygook say about road construction ? That's the same obvious question that most of the tweet responses are asking.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby RajeshA » 28 Aug 2017 18:32

Indians are saying the problem at Doklam has been resolved just as they always wanted. That means Indian interests in all this have been secured. The MEA communique will not expand on this any further as face-saving is always part of the deal.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby eklavya » 28 Aug 2017 18:39

JE Menon wrote:https://twitter.com/MEAIndia/status/902148971136655360

Further explanation from the MEA

One is tempted to put a grinning smiley out there. There is enough in the tone and content of this for all to be satisfied within reason.


Thank you for posting that.

"disengagement of border personnel of India and China" "almost completed under verification"

"understanding reached on boundary issues must be scrupulously respected"

In other words:

1. Chinese troops also pulling out under verification

2. Status quo to be maintained (which is the "understanding") i.e. no road building in disputed areas

3. Chinese missed a great opportunity to shut up, and 11 GinPegs returning home without his undies is unfortunately now a public fact

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 28 Aug 2017 18:49

well...I suppose not as dramatic as expected but every revolution always begins with someone who stands up and refuses to be cowed down (rosa parks?) .... for the first time in recent memory, someone has slapped the dragon for all to see, and the dragon could at best wring out a 'draw' after months of breathing fire about 'shock and awe' and 'shock armies' and 'fist units' and be forced to receive a beaming Namo in beijing next with a constipated expression on the hosts face.

Image

could have been worse.

would not call it a KO but a points based decision in our favour.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chetak » 28 Aug 2017 18:55

Singha wrote:well...I suppose not as dramatic as expected but every revolution always begins with someone who stands up and refuses to be cowed down (rosa parks?) .... for the first time in recent memory, someone has slapped the dragon for all to see, and the dragon could at best wring out a 'draw' after months of breathing fire about 'shock and awe' and 'shock armies' and 'fist units' and be forced to receive a beaming Namo in beijing next with a constipated expression on the hosts face.

could have been worse.

would not call it a KO but a points based decision in our favour.


It's a TKO

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Baikul » 28 Aug 2017 18:59

Given the statements issues by both sides, it is not clear to me how India has won or even managed a draw. Optics may not always reflect reality but they sure as hell paint a picture. How about the MEA issues another statement emphatically rejecting what China is so bluntly claiming?

Incidentally, when even committed defenders like Rakshaks have to generate nuanced statements to prove a win, IMO you have already lost.


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