Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby sum » 30 Aug 2017 12:46

SSridhar wrote:Meanwhile, The Hindu proves yet again why it is a Chinese mouthpiece with this atrocious article, Lessons from Dokalam.

The author beats Global Times in his analysis, IMO.

Stopped reading after seeing author name

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 30 Aug 2017 12:48

the efforts by ndtv sickulars to delegitimize the duly elected govt continues ...

NDTV

Modi Regime Wise To Not Claim Victory Over China
Mihir Swarup Sharma

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 30 Aug 2017 12:56

Per TOIlet, some hans are angry at no apology from India.

Btw, some Hans know how to read the CPC's public posturing better than anyone have right conclude that China backed off and are upset.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby arun » 30 Aug 2017 13:00

:wink: Too bad the bad weather was in Mumbai as then the PRC could have claimed that they ceased building the road because of it :rotfl:

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 30 Aug 2017 13:09

SSridhar wrote:Folks, I don't understand why we link all sorts of things with Doka La issue: NSG, Masood Azhar, Pakistan and I don't know what else is on the way.

I want to know if there is any hint from any Indian/Chinese official or any theory linking all these with Doka La.

Agree with the first point. Discussion with China are ongoing on ALL matters of concern. It is unfair to link a particular incident to an issue.

What however will happen as a result of the latest Indian realpoliticks is that there will be a reassessment on the Chinese side. That can be either good or bad.

So China can double down on "teaching India a lesson" or it can offer and seek more cooperation. Or it can redouble it's effort to contain India while at the same time offering some concession in some area in *exchange* for others. We will have to wait for them to show their hand.

Will the Chinese give up on trying ro be the sole rule setter for Asia?

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prasad » 30 Aug 2017 13:20

In case anyone thinks any agreement wiht the chicoms is worth any more than the paper its written on -
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN19L1J1
China says Sino-British Joint Declaration on Hong Kong no longer has meaning
"Now Hong Kong has returned to the motherland's embrace for 20 years, the Sino-British Joint Declaration, as a historical document, no longer has any practical significance, and it is not at all binding for the central government's management over Hong Kong. The UK has no sovereignty, no power to rule and no power to supervise Hong Kong after the handover," Foreign Ministry spokesman Lu Kang said.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prasad » 30 Aug 2017 13:34

And for the piss & plogless of the liberated minorities of Sinkiang
http://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/ ... 65249.html
China Extends Ban on ‘Extreme’ Uyghur Baby Names to Children Under 16

According to a recent posting on WeChat by the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region’s Public Security Bureau, Order No. 4425 requires all Uyghur parents to change the names of children under 16 years of age, if they are among those listed in a region-wide ban uncovered by RFA’s Uyghur Service.

In April, official sources told RFA that “overly religious names”—such as Islam, Quran, Mecca, Jihad, Imam, Saddam, Hajj, and Medina—were banned under the ruling Chinese Communist Party's “Naming Rules For Ethnic Minorities,” and that any babies registered with such names would be barred from the “hukou” household registration system that gives access to health care and education.


The officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said “15 names cannot be used, including Arafat,” and that parents should bring both their own and their children’s household registration papers to the police station to make the change.

“We are changing only the names of minors under 16,” he said.

“The ones 16 and above have not been ordered to change yet, due to the difficulty of changing their ID cards and driver’s licenses, so we do not have any directive on changing their names.”

According to the officer, students who have completed primary school must also change the names on their graduation certificates, meaning they must visit both their local police station and education department.

He acknowledged that the name change process is difficult, as many parents have been the target of a crackdown on what Beijing calls religious extremism in Xinjiang, with authorities conducting regular “strike hard” campaigns including police raids on Uyghur households, restrictions on Islamic practices, and curbs on the culture and language of the Uyghur people.

“Basically, the village cadres are assisting the minors to change their names, because some of their parents are either in jail or detention,” he said.


The officer said that many Uyghur parents had given their children “extremist” names when Beijing’s policies in the region were “lenient,” but “at the moment, since they cannot use those names, they are simply changing them.”

“The locals have no objections,” he added. :rotfl: :rotfl:

An official from Hotan prefecture’s Qaraqash (Moyu) county government also told RFA his office had recently received an order to change banned names for Uyghur children.

“There are around seven names and the order specified that the name change should be done for free,” said the official, who also asked to remain unnamed.

“For example, they have to change names like Arafat. My colleague’s son’s name was Arafat and he was made to change it. He is a Xinjiang Medical University student.”

The official did not specify the age of the young man.

A teacher in Hotan city also confirmed the name ban, but said that none of the Uyghur students at her school had “radical” names.

“There are some students named after their grandparents—such as Ayshem, Tohti and Mahmut—and most have more popular names—such as Ilnur and Dilnur—so we didn’t hear much about the name ban here,” she said.


Sources in Hotan had previously detailed to RFA a list of banned names in 2015, but an employee who answered the phone at a police station in the regional capital Urumqi suggested in April that the ban had since been rolled out region-wide.

The employee said at the time that names “with a strong religious flavor, such as Jihad” or those with “connotations of holy war or of splittism [Xinjiang independence]” were no longer allowed.

Other rules on what constituted an “extremist” name seemed arbitrary, at best.

“Just stick to the party line, and you'll be fine,” he told RFA.

“[People with banned names] won't be able to get a household registration, so they will find out from the hukou office when the time comes.”

I've only read of what the Soviets did during the Iron curtain days and what the Nazis and Europeans did. These guys are following right in their footsteps.

Oh here's another - Remember Larung Gar - That picturesque valley Tibetan monastery town where housings were demolished and monks were bussed out? Theres a Yarchen Gar nearby which is similar -
Image
https://www.freetibet.org/news-media/na ... -own-homes
[quote]the Chinese authorities has ordered further demolitions to be carried out at the institute of Yachen Gar in Kardze, eastern Tibet. The demolitions have already begun, with residents having to pull down their own homes.

On 10 August 2017, instructions were issued requiring the removal of 3,500 homes belonging to monks and nuns.

The reason given for the order was that space needed to be cleared for the construction of a series of roads within Yachen Gar. Seven roads are to be built within the monk's residential complex and ten roads in the nun's residential complex. Each of the proposed roads will be 10 metres wide.

Faced with the possibility of losing these building materials, many residents complied with this order. The lama who oversees Yachen Gar offered residents 500 Yuan (around GBP £58 or USD $75) as compensation for the loss of their homes.

They were ordered to register their identity cards and to sign and give thumb prints to a document to certify how long they had lived at Yachen Gar. The document committed residents to returning to their native regions of Tibet, 'loving the country and loving the religion' and never returning to Yachen Gar after leaving. {Rich from the commie fu(ks given they're in Eastern Tibet. This place is west of Chengdu which itself has a sizeable Tibetan minority pop}

Residents were advised not to express any kind of disagreement with these orders. The lama at the site called on residents to show calm and patience in the face of the demolitions and forced removals.

He also advised them not to express opposition to or details about the demolitions through social media. He nevertheless expressed his helplessness and disappointment, saying that the August order was: "like a rock falling from the high mountain - no one could reverse it." He added that he would not be able to sleep at night.

Some evicted residents were also subjected to patriotic re-education sessions, a humiliating practice often meted out to Tibetans as a form of punishment for protests or other acts that Chinese authorities deem to be violations of the law. In these sessions Tibetans are generally forced to pledge allegiance to China and denounce the Dalai Lama.

Along with residents from the TAR who were evicted and sent home, residents who left Yachen Gar to visit home, whether for health reasons or family visits, were sent for re-education.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prasad » 30 Aug 2017 13:41

Moar le-edumacation for the plogless of the splittist minolities - This time its the Kyrgyz
http://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/ ... 62912.html
Authorities in Xinjiang Extend Uyghur Persecution to Region’s Ethnic Kyrgyz
[quotes]
Authorities in northwest China’s Xinjiang region are increasingly sentencing mostly Muslim Kyrgyz to reeducation centers for “religious violations,” according to a source in Kyrgyzstan, who said members of the ethnic group now face similar restrictions to those placed on the region’s ethnic majority Uyghurs.

The ethnic Kyrgyz are a Turkic people who make up less than one percent of Xinjiang’s estimated 21.8 million residents and are largely concentrated in the region’s Kizilsu Kirghiz Autonomous Prefecture, along northwest China’s border with Kyrgyzstan.

The small ethnic group had traditionally enjoyed relative autonomy under Chinese rule until Xinjiang Communist Party chief Chen Quanguo was appointed to run the region in August last year and initiated harsh policies targeting the religious freedom of Uyghurs.

“The persecution of Uyghurs by the Chinese government is by far the worst,” said the businessman, who spoke to RFA on condition of anonymity.

“But the same kind of persecution is increasingly happening to the Kyrgyz people as well. In recent months, many young Kyrgyz were arrested by the Chinese government.”

As recently as the fall of 2016, Kyrgyz from Kizilsu could freely travel across the border to Kyrgyzstan, RFA’s source said, but when restrictions began last year, Chinese authorities began confiscating their passports.

“Then, many were rounded up and sent to what are called ‘reeducation centers’—but nobody knew what had happened to them, because nobody was allowed to see them,” he said.

“A lot of Kyrgyz were arrested for growing beards, praying, or even owning a prayer rug or Quran [Islamic holy book] in their homes. Some were sentenced anywhere from five to 17 years in prison. Women more than 60 years of age were given sentences of three to four years.”

The businessman gave several examples of Kyrgyz in Xinjiang who received harsh punishments for so-called religious violations, including a herder named Abu Talip that was sentenced to 17 years for “growing a beard” and a television reporter from Kizilsu’s Akchi (in Chinese, Akeqi) county who received 13 years for “praying.”

He said that in some cases, Xinjiang police are even detaining citizens of Kyrgyzstan traveling to the region, citing the case of a young man named Tudahun, who had recently become a Kyrgyz national.

“He was detained as soon as he entered China a few weeks ago,” he said, adding that it was unclear what had happened to him.

Meanwhile, the businessman said, authorities are also threatening the relatives of ethnic Kyrgyz who have left the region.

{Divide & Conquer - by Mao. Remember the "Death to the Han & Hui?" }
Chinese policy in Xinjiang has pitted members of the Kyrgyz and Uyghur communities against one another since Mao Zedong declared the People’s Republic of China on Oct. 1, 1949, the businessman said, despite several similarities between the traditions of the two ethnic groups.

“China has portrayed the Uyghurs not only as enemies of the state, but also as enemies of their ethnic brethren,” he said.

“Chinese propaganda to the Kyrgyz was very powerful and effective, stating, ‘Uyghurs are terrorists and nothing good comes out of them. Don’t associate with them’ … As a result, many Kyrgyz turned away from Uyghurs … Out of fear or for benefit, they don’t get involved.”

While the Uyghurs endure the harshest persecution at the hands of the authorities in Xinjiang, “China is an ‘equal opportunity oppressor,’” he said.

China regularly conducts “strike hard” campaigns in Xinjiang, including police raids on Uyghur households, restrictions on Islamic practices, and curbs on the culture and language of the Uyghur people, and RFA’s source said that ethnic Kyrgyz are now being similarly targeted.

“If we lose our language, culture, the ancient books handed down by our forefathers, and our way of life and of herding, then we become nothing,” he said.

“Therefore, we all face common persecution.”[/quote]

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prasad » 30 Aug 2017 13:43

All that aside, in case anyone thinks they're going to show to their own public that they backed down in the dokla incident -
Gerry Shih‏
@gerryshih
AP's recording shows 8 out of 17 Q's Monday were about Liu, so half of the Chinese foreign ministry transcript was redacted without noticeGerry Shih added,
Ilaria Maria Sala @IlariaMariaSala
Did no one ask about Liu Xiaobo at this presser? They did but went unrecorded. Bear in mind with Chinese documents: http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/xwfw_66 ... 6743.shtml

6:18 AM - 11 Jul 2017


Remember that chinese student who speak about "land of the free & home of the brave" in U o Maryland recently? Here is a very interesting thread on what an Oz prof feels about the state with chinese students. Also learnt that folks like our Lin and davidd are "wumao".
https://twitter.com/simondenyer/status/ ... 8345101313

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Dumal » 30 Aug 2017 13:51

http://news.rediff.com/commentary/2017/aug/30/learn-lessons-from-doklam-standoff-chinas-foreign-minister-tells-india/0e15dee529cd278791623c449324ec2d

Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi today said the 73-day stand-off between India and China in Doklam ended after India withdrew its troops and asked New Delhi to "learn lessons" and prevent such incidents in future.

India and China on Monday ended their standoff in Doklam by withdrawing their troops from the area, just days before Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to China to attend the BRICS summit next week.

"The border face off caused by Indian trespassing has been settled," Wang told the media in Beijing, while answering a question from the Chinese media reports that India withdrew troops to provide a face saver for China after reaching a settlement.

"We hope that the Indian side will learn lessons from this incident and prevent similar things from happening again," he said, answering a question on media reports stating that India withdrew troops to provide a face saver for China after reaching a settlement.


We should remember that there is never a need to allow for Chinese face saving. They are very good at keeping up appearances.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 30 Aug 2017 14:15

Ahead of Modi's visit, China says huge potential for cooperation - Reuters, ToI
Asian giants China and India have great potential for cooperation, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi said on Wednesday, seeking to cast the neighbours' difficult ties in a positive light ahead of a visit next week by India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

The two agreed this week to de-escalate a more than two-month-old stand-off on their border, just in time for Sunday's kick-off of a summit of the BRICS grouping of nations, which also includes Brazil, Russia and South Africa.

It was normal for the two giant neighbours to have differences, Wang told a news briefing ahead of the summit in the southeastern city of Xiamen that Modi is to attend.

"What's important is that we put these problems in the appropriate place, and appropriately handle and control them in the spirit of mutual respect and based on the consensus of both countries' leaders," he said.

"There is huge potential for cooperation between China and India," Wang added
, without giving details.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby kancha » 30 Aug 2017 14:20

Gus wrote:a good narration of what happened

https://twitter.com/CestMoiz/status/902523778747424768


Thanks Gus for sharing it here. The thread seems to have gone viral!

Have put it out on my blog as well for easier reading
Here's the Link for those not on Twitter . Quoting some parts of the same here.

.. here’s what China did. Some years earlier, it offered to forego its claims on other parts of Bhutan in exchange for the Dolam Plateau. Basically China told Bhutan – We will let you retain your own lands in North if you let go of your lands in the South!

Bhutan decided to graciously decline this ‘generous offer’! Regardless, China kept up its claims and poking Bhutan until the 2012 agreement to agree to retain the status quo on ground. And full marks to China that they stuck to this agreement for FULL FIVE YEARS! But the ‘inevitable itch’ soon shifted from its Eastern Bum (South China Sea) to its Western Bum(LAC). Soon the flag bearers of the so called ‘Peaceful Rise of China’ peacefully marched into sovereign Bhutanese territory with impressive road building equipment. The OBOR had arrived in Bhutan, so what if it was sort of uninvited!


How dare the barbarians to the West refuse to kowtow to the Middle Kingdom! Thus started the sabre rattling (or the noise of the empty vessels, if you will!) Enraged princelings revved their super car engines in anger in Sydney. VERY LOUDLY!

Then came a ‘cute’ little video on the Seven Scenes of India by the State Broadcaster. But full credit to them in taking pains to ensure it was NOT RACIST at all! In fact they even put out a cute little Sardar!


However, all that huff and puff was met with a DEAFENING silence by India. So much so that a dozen page long ‘chargesheet’ let out by Beijing was met with a one line statement by the Indian MEA! Leave along kowtowing, the barbarians simply dismissed the Middle Kingdom with one sentence. Yes, ONE SENTENCE! The Dragon was now stuck riding the Tiger.

So they decided to do a very ‘clever’ thing. They announced that the Indians had unilaterally started withdrawing from the ‘Chinese Territory of Dolam’! Bad move!

The Tiger now replaced its deafening silence with a low growl. There was no such move by Indian troops, he said. Poor Dragon. Yeh daanv bhi fail!


Finally, the Dragon realized he’d bitten off more than he could chew. His huff and puff wouldn’t work across the LAC. The Tiger was in no mood to humour him. Far from that, in fact,the Tiger threatened to devour him instead. Bottomline: Fatt Gayi

With the shrill antics (and of course the Video with the cute Sardar!), the Dragon had become the laughing stock of the world. One so called ‘gentleman’ by the name of Hu kept up the #HuSays rambles, but the Tiger thought is was #ChuSays!

Finally, the Middle Kingdom blinked. It huffed & puffed and quietly requested the Tiger – ‘Saar, galti se mistake ho gaya. Plizz adjust na thoda sa.’ The Tiger’s bottomline was clear. You and your road – Bugger Off


The Dragon left, all his fire extinguished. The Tiger got what it always said it wanted – NO FCUKING ROAD. Period
This, folks, in a nutshell, is what happened to the Dragon’s ‘nutshells’ in #Doklam.

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Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Peregrine » 30 Aug 2017 14:27

SSridhar wrote:Ahead of Modi's visit, China says huge potential for cooperation - Reuters, ToI
Asian giants China and India have great potential for cooperation, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi said on Wednesday, seeking to cast the neighbours' difficult ties in a positive light ahead of a visit next week by India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

The two agreed this week to de-escalate a more than two-month-old stand-off on their border, just in time for Sunday's kick-off of a summit of the BRICS grouping of nations, which also includes Brazil, Russia and South Africa.

It was normal for the two giant neighbours to have differences, Wang told a news briefing ahead of the summit in the southeastern city of Xiamen that Modi is to attend.

"What's important is that we put these problems in the appropriate place, and appropriately handle and control them in the spirit of mutual respect and based on the consensus of both countries' leaders," he said.

"There is huge potential for cooperation between China and India," Wang added
, without giving details.
SSridhar Ji :

Congratulations to You, Congratulations to Me, Congratulations to All Indians, Congratulations to Eleven and Finally the Biggest Heap Load of Congratulations to MODI JI.

MODI JI, You Neutered and Defeated Eleven! Yes Indeed - You did It!

Cheers Image

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Bart S » 30 Aug 2017 15:35

On this Tiger vs Dragon thing, the dragon sounds awesome as long as the discussion is about folklore, in real life though, as I am sure most of China's neighbours who were keenly watching this conflict would have noted, the tiger really exists and can put up a mean fight, whereas the dragon and it's mythical power remains a concept (albeit well marketed and believable) on paper.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Narad » 30 Aug 2017 16:22

From South China Morning Post

scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2108848/lessons-learned-tense-china-india-border-row-it-will

Shi Jiangtao / Kristin Huang
UPDATED : Wednesday, 30 Aug 2017, 1:33PM

“China understands the importance of creating a favourable atmosphere for the success of the summit and the all-important party congress,” said Wang Dehua, head of South Asia studies at the Shanghai Institute for International Studies.

China has pulled out all the stops with meticulous preparations for the summit and Beijing did not want it overshadowed by the border row, according to Chinese experts.

“The event – where Chinese President Xi Jinping and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi are supposed to meet – has offered a way out of this unexpectedly tense stand-off, although there are different interpretations as to which side actually compromised more,” said Yue Gang, a retired colonel in the PLA’s General Staff Department.

Harsh Pant, a professor of international relations at King’s College London, also said the pull-out of Indian troops was “absolutely” in response to the upcoming BRICS summit.

“China needed this to be resolved [ahead of BRICS],” he said by phone from New Delhi. “If any country was under pressure, it was China, not India. There was no reason for India to do anything else apart from holding on and digging in at the border, as India was doing.”

But Wang noted that embattled Indian leader Modi was also keen to make the summit a success because it was a key international platform for India’s growing economic cooperation with China.

Although the Chinese foreign ministry sounded triumphant announcing that the Indian troops had withdrawn, experts say it was Beijing who had compromised by seemingly accepting New Delhi’s demand that it stop road construction in the disputed area where China, India and Bhutan meet.

“Despite Beijing’s deliberate ambiguity, China has apparently made substantial concessions in order to end the dispute,” Yue said.

Since the stand-off began in mid-June, India had urged China to put a stop to road building near its Bhutan border. Beijing had meanwhile insisted that India must withdraw its troops from the area before negotiations to peacefully resolve the crisis could begin.

China said on Tuesday that the weather was a factor affecting its construction of roads and other infrastructure along the Himalayan border with India, and it would maintain patrols in the contested area. But most analysts say China appears to have quietly halted the project after weeks of intense diplomatic negotiations.

"India has got exactly what it has wanted. It was a humiliating defeat for China to cave in to pressure from India despite all the tough talk,” Yue said.


Pant also said the Indian side may have agreed to withdraw because it got what it wanted on the Doklam plateau – restoration of the status quo before China began construction along the unmarked border.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby samirdiw » 30 Aug 2017 16:33

Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi today said the 73-day stand-off between India and China in Doklam ended after India withdrew its troops and asked New Delhi to "learn lessons"


Without the pressure of the Brics what would the China have done?

Would we see a restriction on Chinese imports now?

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Bart S » 30 Aug 2017 16:36

We need to keep the movement for the boycott of Chinese goods ongoing and build it up, regardless of the Doklam incident fizzling out. Irrespective of border transgressions, they deserve it anyway, purely on the basis of underhanded and unfair trade practices, not to mention support to anti-India terrorism, supporting and goading Pakistan as an existential threat to India, and arming them with nukes.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Bart S » 30 Aug 2017 16:38

samirdiw wrote:
Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi today said the 73-day stand-off between India and China in Doklam ended after India withdrew its troops and asked New Delhi to "learn lessons"


Without the pressure of the Brics what would the China have done?

Would we see a restriction on Chinese imports now?


BRICS is inconsequential, at least when compared with holding/losing territory. The whole 'because of BRICS meet' logic is another fig-leaf to China to explain away its abject failure to coerce India, leading to it having no other choice than to back down and leave with it's tail tucked between its legs.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prasad » 30 Aug 2017 16:41

On that note, this is a very piece - https://warontherocks.com/2017/08/count ... of-doklam/
especially the third point. Chinese managing of domestic audience would've become uncomfortable if the situation had escalated and turn into a shooting match. Any reversal there would've been mucho loss of face for xi before the brics meet and later cpc meet. So in any future conflict of this nature, it is essential that we manage our and international media. While indian media might not have a great reach into china, intl media does get a lot more eyeballs.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby anupmisra » 30 Aug 2017 16:49

Ultimately, for the chinis in all their utterances, it is all about the chinis and the chini agenda - how the chinis fared (so much sacrifice!), how the chinis overcame (against all diversity and suffering!), how the rest of the world compromised to work with the chinis (finally saw the wisdom in the chini way!), and how the chinis will bring peace and prosperity with their chinification of global real politiks and international trade (every one wants to offer their land, women and labor to trade with the chinis). It is the chini way!

Bottom line: Me, me, me, me and me!

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby anupmisra » 30 Aug 2017 16:54

Prasad wrote:On that note, this is a very piece - https://warontherocks.com/2017/08/count ... of-doklam/
especially the third point.


Great read. Especially this piece.

The immediate crisis seems to be over, but it offers tantalizing insights into Chinese coercive strategies and how they may be thwarted. This has implications not only for India in its own land border disputes, but also for several Southeast Asian nations and the United States, as they all confront China’s attempts to expand its control and influence.
Beijing seems to have blinked


In effect, India has shown the way to stand up to a rabid pest.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby sum » 30 Aug 2017 16:55

Bart S wrote:On this Tiger vs Dragon thing, the dragon sounds awesome as long as the discussion is about folklore, in real life though, as I am sure most of China's neighbours who were keenly watching this conflict would have noted, the tiger really exists and can put up a mean fight, whereas the dragon and it's mythical power remains a concept (albeit well marketed and believable) on paper.

Would assume maximum browning would have been in GHQ where all hopes of a fierce dragon being the "Winged Djinn who would save us from kaffirs" are now well and truely crushed

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 30 Aug 2017 16:59

While that may be true the mango apdul in bakistan is celebrating that India has been driven out of Doklam by the Chinese going by their official statements and pronouncements.

Funny how on twitter most Indian commentators has to fend off jubilant bakis in addition of Chinese trying to prove they won.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 30 Aug 2017 17:05

Sandeep‏ @SandeepUnnithan 6h6 hours ago

#Doklam this morning. 'Both sides have now vacated the point of face off. We are back in our territory and they (Chinese) are not visible.'
4 replies 81 retweets 142 likes

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby anupmisra » 30 Aug 2017 17:07

I enjoyed reading this article. This playbook should be preserved and analyzed by those who want to stand up to the chinis, and be counted. In my opinion, it is a primer equal to the Art of War, and a strategy to out Tzu the han.

https://warontherocks.com/2017/08/count ... of-doklam/

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 30 Aug 2017 17:07

Prasad wrote:On that note, this is a very piece - https://warontherocks.com/2017/08/count ... of-doklam/
especially the third point. Chinese managing of domestic audience would've become uncomfortable if the situation had escalated and turn into a shooting match. Any reversal there would've been mucho loss of face for xi before the brics meet and later cpc meet. So in any future conflict of this nature, it is essential that we manage our and international media. While indian media might not have a great reach into china, intl media does get a lot more eyeballs.



We wouldn't need to go around "managing media" if we have taken our overwhelming forces and rolled into Tibet, taking back everything lost in 1962 and then some.

We exchanged a historic, clear cut military victory and territorial gains for a hope that the world sees through the PRC's lies.

Instead of doing, we're back to hoping.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby anupmisra » 30 Aug 2017 17:09

pankajs wrote:While that may be true the mango apdul in bakistan is celebrating that India has been driven out of Doklam by the Chinese going by their official statements and pronouncements. Funny how on twitter most Indian commentators has to fend off jubilant bakis in addition of Chinese trying to prove they won.


Who cares about the mango abdul. Never to "wrestle" with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby g.sarkar » 30 Aug 2017 17:53

Dumal wrote:http://news.rediff.com/commentary/2017/aug/30/learn-lessons-from-doklam-standoff-chinas-foreign-minister-tells-india/0e15dee529cd278791623c449324ec2d
Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi today said the 73-day stand-off between India and China in Doklam ended after India withdrew its troops and asked New Delhi to "learn lessons" and prevent such incidents in future.

I sincerely hope that all the lessons have been learned. Number one is to get a full time raksha mantri ASAP.
Gautam

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 30 Aug 2017 18:19

Nitin A. Gokhale‏Verified account @nitingokhale 10h10 hours ago Replying to @nitingokhale

4. India may have been in at an advantage in Dolam militarily but there are huge gaps in preparedness and border infrastructure elsewhere

------------------------->
Read a ET article on Doval doctrine according to which the opponent can be engaged at three levels: defensive, defensive-offensive and offensive.

Let me add one more to the list i,e surrender. So the levels are from the weakest response to the strongest.
1. Surrender
2. Defense
3. Defensive Offensive
4. Offensive

Now each level except surrender required different levels of preparation/resource and that preparation/resource will change depending on the opposition.
Let us read the above tweet and try figuring out, in our own mind, were we are on the 4 levels when compared to Bakistan and China when it comes to an all out border war keeping aside nuclear weapons.

No need to post our thoughts in this thread.
Last edited by pankajs on 30 Aug 2017 18:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby samirdiw » 30 Aug 2017 18:22

chola wrote:We wouldn't need to go around "managing media" if we have taken our overwhelming forces and rolled into Tibet, taking back everything lost in 1962 and then some.

We exchanged a historic, clear cut military victory and territorial gains for a hope that the world sees through the PRC's lies.

Instead of doing, we're back to hoping.


This is something I am trying to understand from the forum and not sure if things are that clear. What I have understood is that there are limited passes through which Chinese forces can enter and Indian Army and IAF have these covered. If we were so confident of maintaining a stalemate why were our political leadership and defense analysts showing so much eagerness for a peaceful resolution? It kind of betrays an uncomfortableness in being in the position of standoff let alone a more aggressive stance that you suggest. It looks like there are a lot of other problems to be resolved before we can be aggressive in the manner suggested. And if we can see it so can the Chinese. Sure it's more than what we have done in the past so in that sense it is still better. Maybe they expected even less of us prior to this.


As far as capturing territory goes what is that gives us an advantage? Wouldnt the same number of passes restrict us too? Would we be able to hold on to the territory captured under all that pressure? Up to what can we comfortably capture and hold with our current strength? Wouldnt Chinese be able to project their power to defend to push us back? What are the areas we can capture territory and hold ground on the others?
Trying to understand the facts on the ground and the gaps and what it takes to overcome and make it as clear as daylight this so that in future there is less hope and more confidence to act.

Looking at the corps strengths along the Eastern border just feel that there isn't sufficient muscle on our side like how we have on the Western side to capture territory. Another 4-5 corps(and a couple of commands), may be needed to have that kind of power.

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Re: Neutering & defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby sarkar » 30 Aug 2017 18:33

http://www.oneindia.com/india/does-every-disputed-land-become-yours-by-default-dovals-sharp-response-to-china-2532634.html

Doval also told the Chinese that it would be better that both troops pulled out of Doklam since China's claim over the area was not settled. He also asserted Doklam belonged to Bhutan and owing to a treaty, India is bound to protect that country. He also told China that they had promised to hand over Doklam to Bhutan in exchange for the 500 sq kilometre in the north.



Which " 500 sq kilometre in the north." is he talking about?

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Philip » 30 Aug 2017 18:56

I thought it was too good to be true,CHindu position on Doklam prior to the compromise. Dhoti-shiver brigade yet to be exterminated.
The author of the piece and editor ,should both be given the "Order of Neville Chamberlin" for "Appeasement in our time"!

Fortunately they are few and anything but fearsome. The galaxy of retd. generals hve kept warning us that this is only the interval before the next Chinese aggro on the border. But the slimy bit about us assisting Chinese trade by capitulating to it on OBOR,etc., is so anti-Indian that he should be horsewhipped by Indian manufacturers and trade bodies.

Remember the famous word that the veteran Cong. leader from TN. ,K.Kamraj used to use when asked whether "he would do this or that".
"Parkalam" was his response,the equiv . of "we'll see".Mr.Modi should give XI Gins the Gujju equiv. of the same!

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 30 Aug 2017 19:34

Philip wrote: But the slimy bit about us assisting Chinese trade by capitulating to it on OBOR,etc., is so anti-Indian that he should be horsewhipped by Indian manufacturers and trade bodies.

Remember the famous word that the veteran Cong. leader from TN. ,K.Kamraj used to use when asked whether "he would do this or that".
"Parkalam" was his response,the equiv . of "we'll see".Mr.Modi should give XI Gins the Gujju equiv. of the same!


Two things we need to look out for:

1) Bhutan establishing diplomatic relations with Cheen

2) Accomodations on OBOR and trade issues (this can happen in the BRICs conference with the new phoney bonhomie over Modi attending their shitty BRICS conference)

Either one will make whatever "face" we gain meaningless because they will be actual gains for the SYRE lizard.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby abhik » 30 Aug 2017 19:35

Bart S wrote:We need to keep the movement for the boycott of Chinese goods ongoing and build it up, regardless of the Doklam incident fizzling out. Irrespective of border transgressions, they deserve it anyway, purely on the basis of underhanded and unfair trade practices, not to mention support to anti-India terrorism, supporting and goading Pakistan as an existential threat to India, and arming them with nukes.

Chinese imports has become like opium, it destroying our local industry yet we are unable to give it up due to addiction to cheapest alternative. The chinese are doing to us what the Brits (and India) did to them a century and half ago.

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 30 Aug 2017 19:47

samirdiw wrote:
chola wrote:We wouldn't need to go around "managing media" if we have taken our overwhelming forces and rolled into Tibet, taking back everything lost in 1962 and then some.

We exchanged a historic, clear cut military victory and territorial gains for a hope that the world sees through the PRC's lies.

Instead of doing, we're back to hoping.


This is something I am trying to understand from the forum and not sure if things are that clear. What I have understood is that there are limited passes through which Chinese forces can enter and Indian Army and IAF have these covered. If we were so confident of maintaining a stalemate why were our political leadership and defense analysts showing so much eagerness for a peaceful resolution? It kind of betrays an uncomfortableness in being in the position of standoff let alone a more aggressive stance that you suggest. It looks like there are a lot of other problems to be resolved before we can be aggressive in the manner suggested. And if we can see it so can the Chinese. Sure it's more than what we have done in the past so in that sense it is still better. Maybe they expected even less of us prior to this.


As far as capturing territory goes what is that gives us an advantage? Wouldnt the same number of passes restrict us too? Would we be able to hold on to the territory captured under all that pressure? Up to what can we comfortably capture and hold with our current strength? Wouldnt Chinese be able to project their power to defend to push us back? What are the areas we can capture territory and hold ground on the others?
Trying to understand the facts on the ground and the gaps and what it takes to overcome and make it as clear as daylight this so that in future there is less hope and more confidence to act.

Looking at the corps strengths along the Eastern border just feel that there isn't sufficient muscle on our side like how we have on the Western side to capture territory. Another 4-5 corps(and a couple of commands), may be needed to have that kind of power.



Reason? Gandhian outlook on everything. And dhoti-shivering. Never imagine being on offensive and always worrying about some magical commie power to "human wave" us in spite of what the satellite and intelligence says.

We have at least four corps in the Eastern front versus at most four chini brigades. Each corps holds 3 or four IA divisions. Each division is equivalent to about four brigades.

Do the math.

The advantages are just as great in the air with 30 airbases to their five in Tibet and our aircraft can take off with a full load from our lower altitude.

In the IOR, even greater advantages. They don't have bases (except for Djibouti) yet.

It is doubtful we can be in an even better position in the future. Again, compare what is in their pipeline compared to ours.

You can't declare war out of the blue without all kinds of repercussions but here they were threatening war and presenting us the perfect fvcking opportunity to roll into them with incredible, irresistable force. It would have been epic.

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Re: Neutering & defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Iyersan » 30 Aug 2017 19:48

#China #MoFA #spokesperson #HuaChunying remarks have different tones everyday.
#India must prepare for a tough winter & tougher summer ahead
Tweet by @rajfortyseven

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Re: Neutering & defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 30 Aug 2017 20:06

No need for multiple statements on sensitive Dokalam issue: Government - PTI
Defence Minister Arun Jaitley today refused to interpret the significance of resolution of the China-India face-off at Dokalam, saying it was a "sensitive" issue and that the government had already conveyed its position.

The External Affairs Ministry has already articulated the government's stand on the issue, he told reporters at a briefing.

"Given the sensitivity of the issue, there is no need to make multiple statements," Jaitley said when asked whether the resolution of the Dokalam standoff was a big achievement for India.

Jaitley, who also announced the government's decision to carry out major reforms in the Army to enhance its combat capability, said the exercise had nothing to do with any specific incident and had been going on since much before Dokalam.

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Re: Neutering & defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Karthik S » 30 Aug 2017 20:11

Now that this could has passed, shall we look into mass producing or procuring Artillery guns, MBRL, UCAVs, additional batch of C-130J. Am sure military would have assessed what equipment they'd need in numbers for the future.

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Re: Neutering & defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby RajeshA » 30 Aug 2017 20:18

I noticed that in the Doklam-standoff, Japan made a pro-India statement. That is a good portent. This is what needs to be done more often. The moment some country in Asia has a problem with China, others need to start asking China to adhere to international norms and pull back. If Mongolia, or Vietnam or Philippines or India or Japan or Taiwan feel any pressure from China, others need to speak up.

That way, the Chinese people would start feeling that it is China that stands alone in Asia and the world and has no friends.

There is a need for all countries to be outspoken, and not "just mind their business".

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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Rajeev » 30 Aug 2017 20:31

ramana wrote:
Rajeev wrote:Slightly off the topic but wondering if Vishnu Shom ( NDTV) still active here . Would have been good to get some journalistic perspective too here , even “inside information” from their typical sources in GOI of what really transpired that clinched the breakthrough :)



I really don't know. Most of the journos are on a "blow to Modi" binge and are shocked the Chinese withdrew.
Even former diplomats with behinds parked in fat sinecures in US who were advising prostration in front of the almighty dragon are now singing praises of India. Ex Lt Gens too.

So just read this thread and get educated. Even the press comes here to get an understanding. Which gets confirmed by officials much later.


My biggest fear is denial of services attack on BRF or worse hack both by Chinese miscreants.


Couldnt agree more , so well said .

Many times I have seen "baidu" too lurking here amongst users browsing this forum , whatever that means :)

World is finally waking up to the new realities of Asia since Doklam and grudgingly agree its China that blinked , not India , music to our ears ...!!

Who blinked in the China-India military standoff?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... 76b53df40d


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