Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

[yensoy]

May be the following Article throws some light on Eleven Ting a Ling wanting to "appease" Modi. Its not only BRI-OBOR-CPEC but that Chinawalas need Indian Hi Tech Talent :

Some reports claim that the cost of employing an Indian engineer is just half the cost of hiring a Chinese worker, which means Indians could see their revenue more than double if they came to work in China," it said.

"Some enterprises in Southwest China's Guizhou Province provide convenience for Indian talent in terms of housing, insurance and transportation and could enjoy a much better standard of living in Guizhou cities than in Bangalore," it said.

Cheers

What a load of bull! No Indian who is really smart is going to stick with a Chinese company for long, at best they will use it to build their resume before moving to the West or taking a better position in India. If you think Indian companies have favouritism, internal politics and dysfunctionality, you will be surprised how much better they are than Chinese companies where besides all the above you have questionable funding, cash flows and payoffs. The Infy drama is a daily affair, except none of the dirty laundry will be washed in public and the common employee will be wondering why they haven't got a raise.

If the thinking is that the Indian engineer can be hired in China at the same salary as he/she is making in India, boy are they in for a surprise! If you need to get an Indian engineer to work in China you better be prepared to pay more than you are paying their Chinese counterpart, because guess what, their cost of living is going to be astronomically higher as an expat.

Best way for Chinese companies to use Indian talent is to set up/purchase outright or fund Western or Indian companies to employ the talent in India, and have software products and services delivered to the Chinese masters. Even a Chinese subsidiary company in India has a rather low glass ceiling with limited career advancement due to its nature and of course language challenge.

[Shankas]

Cross posting from the Korean thread...

I was thinking, what or who could have prompted/nudged 9-pegs puppet lil kim to go against his master, especially on the day when the whole worlds attention was on Bricks and it was the middle kingdoms all powerful emperor 9-peg's day. Could it be that beneath the calm waves of CPC there is a lot of turmoil, turbulence, and undercurrent that points to instability? Perhaps the opposition camp within is orchestrating this to bring down 9-pegs aura before the plenary. Should we be expecting an October surprise?

[SSridhar]

Naming JeM, LeT not new; action must shift to UN - Suhasini Haidar, The Hindu

The BRICS declaration at Xiamen, which included a paragraph on terror, has been hailed as a major shift of China’s policy of protecting Pakistan-based groups. However, experts say the reference to Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) and Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) is not a first for Beijing and must be reinforced by a bilateral commitment on terrorism during the meeting between President Xi Jinping and Prime Minister Narendra Modi expected on Tuesday.

In particular, officials say they hope the BRICS statement will translate into China removing its block on designating JeM chief Masood Azhar as a U.N. Security Council-sanctioned terrorist when its current hold on the process at the Security Council expires on November 1.

Beyond statements

“It is obvious that China’s new role in the region, including the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) leadership, has given it new responsibilities, and it is significant that this shift also comes post-Doklam. It is to be hoped that they will go further than the statements, however,” said former diplomat Amar Sinha, a key official involved in drafting last year’s BRICS declaration in Goa and the one at the Heart of Asia conference in Amritsar, both of which China attended.

Monday’s statement says with regard to the violence in Afghanistan that the BRICS countries “express concern on the security situation in the region and violence caused by the Taliban, ISIL/DAISH, Al-Qaida and its affiliates including Eastern Turkistan Islamic Movement, Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, the Haqqani network, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammad, TTP and Hizb ut-Tahrir.”

Last year’s BRICS conference in Goa had seen a major tussle over including the names of Pakistan-based terror groups and the term “cross-border terrorism” in the wake of the Uri attacks. Admitting that they had not been successful in having the specific names of groups added to the statement apart from that of the Islamic State, officials at the time had said they were “satisfied” with the final consensus.

However, two months later, at the Heart of Asia conference in Amritsar, India had attempted a different line during negotiations on the joint text, which was signed by 14 countries including China and Pakistan, naming groups that attack security forces in Russia, China, India, Pakistan and others.

The resultant declaration had the same language used in the BRICS declaration on Monday.

“We remain concerned by the gravity of the security situation in Afghanistan in particular and the region, and the high level of violence caused by the Taliban, terrorist groups including ISIL and its affiliates, the Haqqani Network, Al Qaida, Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, East Turkistan Islamic Movement, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammad, TTP, Jamaat-ul-Ahrar, Jundullah and other foreign terrorist fighters,” it said.

Officials involved in India’s counter-terrorism efforts say they hope the BRICS statement will be seen as a progression in China’s stand, but add it has been 16 years since China and other UNSC countries designated JeM and more than a decade since LeT was similarly designated.

[brvarsh]

The bonhomie shown by China during BRICS summit reminds me of Afzal Khan. When you know the character of a country it does not change overnight not by one Incident. China is executing a much bigger nefarious plan against India. China leaving Pakistan is not likely not any time soon. China US ending up on the same side is not likely either,

[TKiran]

I think Hans are now slowly but surely recognising India for what it is. All these years, since 1979, India was in the blind spot for China.

Hans even though thoroughly propagandized, are in general very smart people, they can copy Indian strengths very fast. Already yoga is more popular in Shanghai than Mumbai. They can copy Hinduism very fast, and live much more dharmically than Indians. They have not done this for so long as India was in blind spot. Doklam has brought India into their conscience. Hans don't consider copying as a bad thing essentially. They think that if some intellectual property is there, it should be for every one. So intellectual property theft is not a sin for them. In fact they show their diligence in first understanding and then improvising the intellectual property. In fact Han think that the West is thief as they don't share their intellectual property.

Actually the role played by Hu Jintao is often under appreciated. For example, he correctly assessed and taken initiative to improve the infrastructure in Tibet to make the supply lines even at great costs as he understood that Lhasa could be captured by India and liberate Tibet at any time in future. Indians​ didn't understand this and were lazy in their assessment that they don't need to improve the infrastructure on their side as the geography gives India all the advantage, true to the extent that geography is advantageous to India, but improvement in the infrastructure on our side of the border would be a booster. If Hu Jintao didn't put the Lhasa Qinghai railways, certainly we didn't need to improve, but atleast when that is the Reality, in order to keep our advantage of keeping Han on toes, we should have also improved our side of the infrastructure.

Another attempt at by Hu Jintao was invitation to Kanchi peethadhipati to China to copy Hinduism.

It was taken very lightly by our security establishment and laughed at. But there was no follow up from Han side also. But now that India is out of the blind spot for Hans, expect a very fast catch-up by Han on religious side.

Some how I still have a feeling that backing off from Doklam has blunted the knife of Indians. We should have held on to the position instead of begging for peace, as a rare opportunity to cut Han to size has been missed.

Han are so cunning and deceptive they will never give such an opportunity to India again, jab seedhi ungli se ghee nikalega tho ungli tedhi karne ki kya zaroorat hai?

Though it's advantage India geographically to liberate Tibet, it's Dharma of India to liberate Tibet, but still we gave up a good opportunity, which we may never get again.

Now expect Han sweet talk and atleast get assurance from Modi that he would not disrupt CPEC and reclaim PoK. With peaceful talks Indians can be bought, it doesn't even cost a thing. Expect Han sweet talk.

I didn't expect Han to analyze and strategize and implement how to manage India so quickly. We must appreciate Han where it's due, even grudgingly.

Actually what has escaped my analysis of Han was the statement from Japan supporting our stand during Doka Lam standoff. Japanese are very diligent and don't poke their nose into such stand-offs. There would have been a strong indicator that this stand-off could lead to PLA doing something stupid and Han get their nose bloodied due to their hubris. Once India started getting positive response from Japan, Eleven immediately changed tact, replaced western Commander, analyzed India's weakness for peace, took the offer of begging for peace and defused the situation, clever Eleven.

[SSridhar]

Modi-Xi meet will seek to erase Doklam tensions - Atul Aneja, The Hindu

Ahead of the proposed one-on-one meeting between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chinese President Xi Jinping on Tuesday, India has signalled that it wants to open a new chapter in ties with China, going past the Doklam crisis as a reference point in the New Delhi-Beijing equation.

“We want to bury the ghost of the D-word (Doklam) in our engagement in the future,” an official source who did not wish to be named said. “This will be the central message that the Prime Minster would like to convey during his visit,” he observed.

It is as yet unclear whether the BRICS summit will be a turning point in China-India ties in the post-Doklam phase. {A true turning point will never come unless China settles the border issue and stops using Pakistan against us. But, for that, China has to determine that there is space for both India & China in this world. This requires China to change diametrically by shunning its 'sole superpower ambition' fuelled by tianxia. That's a fundamental change in its DNA and how would they achieve that? That is not possible though some tactical positive development is possible as China recognizes its limitations against India or diminishing returns of its hostile policy towards us. We should take whatever that comes and demand even more so as to further shape the Chinese behaviour while simultaneously preparing to challenge the Chinesee hegemony wherever we need to.}

Long-term solution

But ahead of the summit, the Chinese had also pointed out that the two countries must find a long-term solution to prevent incidents such as the face-off on the Doklam plateau.

In a briefing on the eve of the summit, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi hoped the two countries “will join hands and work together for the rejuvenation of, for the development of our region and contribute our share to the greater development”.

With reference to the Doklam crisis, Mr. Wang had said, “In the meantime, with our engagement through a different mechanism, we need to work out a solution in the long run.”

On Sunday, Chinese President Xi Jinping had also highlighted the urgency of avoiding “confrontation” as the security template for the five emerging economies. He underscored that the BRICS grouping must uphold the value of diplomacy to resolve “hotspot issues”.

In tune with the start of the BRICS summit, a commentary in the state-run Xinhua news agency stressed that the Xiamen gathering “offers a new chance for the leaders of the five member nations to bridge the governance deficit as the world order is in urgent need of an overhaul.”

It underscored that with the rise of protectionism in major markets like the U.S. and parts of Europe, “BRICS must step into this vacuum and give some clear direction about what they see as the future of globalisation, and play their part in building the next phase of globalisation.”

[SSridhar]

Though it's advantage India geographically to liberate Tibet, it's Dharma of India to liberate Tibet, but still we gave up a good opportunity, which we may never get again.

Now expect Han sweet talk and atleast get assurance from Modi that he would not disrupt CPEC and reclaim PoK. With peaceful talks Indians can be bought, it doesn't even cost a thing. Expect Han sweet talk.

TK, I am convinced that in the larger scheme of Indian Hindu perspective, it is Dharma that propels them. We are not in the business of being a 'sole superpower' or a hegemon. We are first and foremost interested in lifting our masses out of poverty. The sanguine idea of 'Vasudeiva Khutumbakam' rules our mind. But, tactically, we must always practice 'realpolitik', which would be largely ruthless display of our own and only our own interests.

We should be prepared for everything from the Hans. But, apart from the early cave-in by Nehru to Panchsheel and Hindi Cheeni Bhai-bhai rhetoric, no Indian PM has ever succumbed to Chinese pressure or blandishments. Even Nehru took a tough stand in the second-half of his India-China dealing.

So, I don't know what you mean by 'Indians can be bought' through peace talks. That has happened only with our long lost brothers, the Pakistanis where we conceded more and more after every victory and in every 'peace talk'. But, that is a different story and the psychology behind that 'death wish' is something else. That wouldn't happen with the Hans.

I agree with your characterization of the Chinese diligence though.

[pankajs]

Agree. It was Manmohan Singh GOI that did away with the customary *One China* declaration when it was not reciprocated.

[TKiran]

A true turning point will never come unless China settles the border issue and stops using Pakistan against us. But, for that, China has to determine that there is space for both India & China in this world. This requires China to change diametrically by shunning its 'sole superpower ambition' fuelled by tianxia. That's a fundamental change in its DNA and how would they achieve that? That is not possible though some tactical positive development is possible as China recognizes its limitations against India or diminishing returns of its hostile policy towards us. We should take whatever that comes and demand even more so as to further shape the Chinese behaviour while simultaneously preparing to challenge the Chinesee hegemony wherever we need to.

SS sir, for Han it's always a military disadvantage in Tibet, even if the borders are settled because of geography. There's no incentive to settle the borders when Indians could be fooled by sweet talk, which is available at no cost.

Sorry to bring politics into picture, but it's relevant here. Hans don't need USA any more, look at the Automobiles market, China is 3 times bigger market to USA (2 million cars Vs 6 millions). If they can keep India on their side, they don't need USA for a market.

N Sitaraman, who was commerce minister didn't have a clue to stop Han dumping their produce and they had a field day the moment Modi Sarkar got in. They tripled their trade deficit. All this talk of boycott Han goods is just the noise to obscure the signal that Modi Sarkar is in favour of Han trade. (NDA is a bigger fraud than Congress allowing Han finished goods, but asking people to avoid Han products). She doesn't have any clue as to how to control and keep the Indian advantages at the LAC, and backup with diplomacy to gain advantages politically. We need better politicians who could articulate our policies based on hard-nosed advantages and not hesitate to thrust war on our enemies and not get charmed by "sweet talk charm offensive".

If my assessment is correct, expect Han to extend the technical hold on Azhar. This sweet talk (naming of JeM, LeT etc) is only to keep Modi in humour.

Also expect Han to take over loss making companies in India (such as SIAC taking over GM India etc) just to kill the local industry and spread the tantacles deep inside the Indian market while Modi Sarkar lasts. It may incur losses, but that's a small price to pay for making Indian public addicted to Han finished goods.

Actually, Bosch killed a lot of profit making medium enterprises to finally rule the Automobiles Spares business in India. Similar thing could happen with Heier etc in consumer electronics and who knows, Bosch itself could be bought by the Han.

[kancha]

I am not in complete agreement with the General as also wrt his previous piece but there is data that makes this an interesting read.

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... ght/92091/
Part 2 of my column, “How will Chinese use of force in Doklam manifest?” -- Lt General H S Panag

[/b], we adopted an operational strategy encompassing all or most of these aspects. The armed forces were mobilised under the deception cover of annual “operation alert” and offensive formations were poised or postured to pre-emptively threaten Sinche La (the PLA entry point into the Doklam Plateau) at the tactical level and threaten Yatung and Phari Dzong in the Chumbi Valley from west and the east at the strategic level.

Our capability to fight in winters needs to be enhanced.

Two questions come to mind.

Firstly, when he says we were poised to attack Phari Dzong from EAST, does he mean that were to go inside Bhutan and attack Phari Dzong? There seems no other way the IA could attack Phari Dzong from that direction!

Secondly, is there any data available on the PLA's capabilities to fight in winter at those heights?

[kancha]

How interesting. Per accounts, this was Nehru's fear too, regarding the IA, and he tried to keep the IA weak.

Their "weak" and our "weak" are very different words; the PLA is not being deprived of equipment.

Chetak Ji, don't take it amiss, but the shiny equipment didn't help them in South Sudan In fact, they ran away in face of fire. They continue to a typical commie army - the moment they are faced with an unexpected situation, they fumble around looking for orders on what to do. Then there is the issue of practically 3/4th of their army getting turned over every 3 years due to the conscript nature, things aren't as rosy.
JMTs

[Aditya_V]

Kancha, I am not sure how many soldiers and Posts PLA maintains in Winter in Tibet. If we again look at the 1962 war, we see the Chinese had long prepared for the war since 1959 and continued when say success in Bomdila etc. But after the Causualties at Rezang La and Walong, they realized their supply lines will be cut off in winter and resisting counter attacks would be tough for them, hence an abrupt ceasefire and withdrawal in unfavorable areas while Indians were still in shock.

[g.sarkar]

Hans even though thoroughly propagandized, are in general very smart people, they can copy Indian strengths very fast. Already yoga is more popular in Shanghai than Mumbai. They can copy Hinduism very fast, and live much more dharmically than Indians. They have not done this for so long as India was in blind spot. Doklam has brought India into their conscience. Hans don't consider copying as a bad thing essentially. They think that if some intellectual property is there, it should be for every one. So intellectual property theft is not a sin for them. In fact they show their diligence in first understanding and then improvising the intellectual property. In fact Han think that the West is thief as they don't share their intellectual property.

T Kiranji,
Dhrayate iti Dharma. It is not an automobile that can be copied. Khan has tried to copy Yoga and see what has happened. I have asked many Amreekan Yoga teachers to define Yoga. There are two common ones, one by Patanjali and the other by Krishna himself, yet none were able to come up with the correct definition. Doing Down ward looking Dog pose correctly is not Yoga. If China truly copies India's dharma, it will not remain the current China, and they will have to make internal changes that are very difficult to make. I have met many Asians, Vietnamese, Hmong, Korean etc., who have converted from Buddhism to Christianity. Whole families have embraced a new religion. For them religion can be changed for personal betterment. Yesterday they became Buddhist, today they became Catholic, tomorrow something else, all to gain materialistically. Lastly, the Dharma of India is different from the Dharma of China. If they adopt our dharma, they will fail miserably. They may however adopt Christianity and try to use it to their advantage.
Gautam

[chetak]

Their "weak" and our "weak" are very different words; the PLA is not being deprived of equipment.

Chetak Ji, don't take it amiss, but the shiny equipment didn't help them in South Sudan In fact, they ran away in face of fire. They continue to a typical commie army - the moment they are faced with an unexpected situation, they fumble around looking for orders on what to do. Then there is the issue of practically 3/4th of their army getting turned over every 3 years due to the conscript nature, things aren't as rosy.
JMTs

Don't take my arguments beyond the context in which it was made. The discussion was on how the PLA generals are kept weak so that Xi's rivals don't benefit from their support. This does not come at the cost of weakening the PLA.

In India, for silly reasons, short sighted vision, lack of the big picture concept that does not take into consideration the regional and global security situation and the possible developments therein, we have CAG revealed ammo shortages, no field artillery replacements or procurement for decades, budget cuts, where purposely unspent, already budgeted money, is reappropriated as "savings" to be repurposed and spent else where. This is duplicity of the first order and our generals are equally to blame. Their eyes are fixed on future appointments as governors, ambassadors, and what not.

The stronger a country becomes economically, the greater the threats and risks from rivals and the deterrence for that is inescapably a strong military that is ready to protect our commerce and trade without any outside country exercising undue influences.

We simply cannot maintain high growth rates without the presence of a strong military in the background, a military whose strength and undoubted capabilities are clearly visible to our enemies and rivals.

In India, the Forces don't have political power and the party in power does not need the IA to stay in power but in the chinese context, the PLA has political power as well which its generals exercise by aligning themselves with various "leaders" like xi and perhaps his rivals. So the chinese "leaders" have the political power of the PLA to consider in their decision making process.

[kancha]

Chetak Ji, don't take it amiss, but the shiny equipment didn't help them in South Sudan In fact, they ran away in face of fire. They continue to a typical commie army - the moment they are faced with an unexpected situation, they fumble around looking for orders on what to do. Then there is the issue of practically 3/4th of their army getting turned over every 3 years due to the conscript nature, things aren't as rosy.
JMTs

Don't take my arguments beyond the context in which it was made. The discussion was on how the PLA generals are kept weak so that Xi's rivals don't benefit from their support. This does not come at the cost of weakening the PLA.

Not at all. My point was merely about the equipment and the quality of the soldier manning it.
That apart, I do agree with what you wrote in the post above

[chetak]

Don't take my arguments beyond the context in which it was made. The discussion was on how the PLA generals are kept weak so that Xi's rivals don't benefit from their support. This does not come at the cost of weakening the PLA.

Not at all. My point was merely about the equipment and the quality of the soldier manning it.
That apart, I do agree with what you wrote in the post above

The hans, it is rumoured, have 30 odd million excess males that they would well do to get rid of. This is because of their misguided one child policy as well as the han preferences for the male child over the female.

So quality may well be replaced by the overwhelming quantity that may not be so easy for any opposing army to match or tackle.

[yensoy]

China uncensored: Who won the border dispute?

[TKiran]

^^^gautam sir, I agree with you that it will be different with Han. But I hope you are not underestimating Han. Han are different civilization, they have their own original thoughts, original many things. Even when they copy, they give Chinese charteristics to everything they copy.

For example, they call themselves commies, but they have beaten western capitalists in their own game. Their rules of the game itself are different.

They copied kalari as kung fu.

What makes them superior copiers is the diligence they show in acquiring what others have already acquired, and also their own strength, I can give an analogy for the Han.

They are very similar to Vali (brother of sugreeva) who would gain half the strength of his opponent the instant the battle starts, also he has his own strength. Even sakshat Sri Rama had to kill him hiding behind a tree.

[kancha]

Not at all. My point was merely about the equipment and the quality of the soldier manning it.
That apart, I do agree with what you wrote in the post above

The hans, it is rumoured, have 30 odd million excess males that they would well do to get rid of. This is because of their misguided one child policy as well as the han preferences for the male child over the female.

So quality may well be replaced by the overwhelming quantity that may not be so easy for any opposing army to match or tackle.

Of course the Hans are NEVER short on quantity. How they use it and how it affects the outcome in the next round remains to be seen, though.
Two quick points - firstly the Indian soldier today is not carrying a mere 100 rounds as he did in 1962.
That said, our logistics will definitely be badly strained in case it comes to waves after waves as the Han did in 1962, both in terms of men and equipment. But then, would he survive after sending so many 'Little Princes' to their deaths?
Too many variables out here.
Bottomline - logistics on our side have to be strengthened as General Panag too mentioned in his piece quoted some posts above. The CPC might be well served to keep the PLA 'weak' as you mentioned, but in case of a prolonged shooting war, logistics will be the single biggest factor in deciding the outcome IMO.

[TKiran]

The hans, it is rumoured, have 30 odd million excess males that they would well do to get rid of. This is because of their misguided one child policy as well as the han preferences for the male child over the female.

So quality may well be replaced by the overwhelming quantity that may not be so easy for any opposing army to match or tackle.

That is what it is, Rumour.

I have seen more girls than boys everywhere. In our eagerness to criticize Han, we forget that Han can have any number of children before the birth of their first male child. I have seen many couples who had two girls before their only son.

Now even that anamoly is corrected, Han can have more than one only son just in time.

The one child policy has not dented them that badly as we would like them to have got hit. Before 1980, there was no one child policy, now that they controlled their population, they abandoned that policy. More children and all iz well...

If you are thinking that they won't fight because they can't lose their "little princes", then you are grossly wrong.

But they would not fight filthy blacks in Africa because they consider themselves rich and sophisticated they don't need to die for some cause that has nothing to do with China. It's called hubris.(even pakis are more valient than Han, for that matter. Loss of sperm because of masturbation is the root cause of Han non-valience, correctly analysed by Han themselves) That would set into any army which is not battle hardened for such a long time. If everything can be bought with some RMB s, why lose their lives?

[chetak]

The hans, it is rumoured, have 30 odd million excess males that they would well do to get rid of. This is because of their misguided one child policy as well as the han preferences for the male child over the female.

So quality may well be replaced by the overwhelming quantity that may not be so easy for any opposing army to match or tackle.

Of course the Hans are NEVER short on quantity. How they use it and how it affects the outcome in the next round remains to be seen, though.
Two quick points - firstly the Indian soldier today is not carrying a mere 100 rounds as he did in 1962.
That said, our logistics will definitely be badly strained in case it comes to waves after waves as the Han did in 1962, both in terms of men and equipment. But then, would he survive after sending so many 'Little Princes' to their deaths?
Too many variables out here.
Bottomline - logistics on our side have to be strengthened as General Panag too mentioned in his piece quoted some posts above. The CPC might be well served to keep the PLA 'weak' as you mentioned, but in case of a prolonged shooting war, logistics will be the single biggest factor in deciding the outcome IMO.

these 'Little Princes', as you call them are unknown, unsung and will not be missed conscripts. Plenty more where they came from.

When stalin took staggering casualties in WWII, did anyone comment on it, least of all in Russia?? The soviets, perhaps, had the highest level of battle casualties, not because of enemy action only but because of the "wave after wave" attacking tactics of the successful soviet generals like zhukhov that simply overwhelmed the well trained and disciplined germans.

Those guys who did not advance in the face of the enemy were shot by their own soviet army right in the field.

No one gives a rats for such PLA conscripts because uncounted replacements are available via the same route. Xi would not miss a beat and neither would his generals.

[Philip]

A true turning point will never come unless China settles the border issue and stops using Pakistan against us. But, for that, China has to determine that there is space for both India & China in this world. This requires China to change diametrically by shunning its 'sole superpower ambition' fuelled by tianxia. That's a fundamental change in its DNA and how would they achieve that? That is not possible though some tactical positive development is possible as China recognizes its limitations against India or diminishing returns of its hostile policy towards us. We should take whatever that comes and demand even more so as to further shape the Chinese behaviour while simultaneously preparing to challenge the Chinese hegemony wherever we need to.

Spot on. I posted earlier a line which India could take,reminding China that a "Great Wall" is built using many small similar sized stones/bricks,not with just one great piece! Similarly,if China wants to establish its OBOR,Silk Road,etc.,etc., it has to be of mutual benefit to all the other participating nations where equality is the mantra. A heavy overloading of profit in China's favour will spell disaster for the venture.

China also never imagined that India would wake up and become an economic powerhouse.That we were militarily capable it got sev. reminders esp. from '71 onwards. In its relentless pursuit of global domination,China has been steadfastly sabotaging India's attempts at breaking free from its Himalayan boundaries and playing a greater global role. We too have also been obsessed with Pak. I think it was Gen.Rodrigues (?) who famously said some years ago that "Pak is an irritant,China is the threat",and was ticked off by babudom for the same. But he was spot on too,which we've realised years later.

The Q is ,"what will China's attitude towards India be in the future? " I may be "back-tongued",but I can't see any real genuine wish on the Chinese part to soften its stance on India and give us greater space as an equal.It will take a truly enlightened leader of China to come forward with such a invitation. Until such a genuine rapproachment takes place,

[chetak]

The hans, it is rumoured, have 30 odd million excess males that they would well do to get rid of. This is because of their misguided one child policy as well as the han preferences for the male child over the female.

So quality may well be replaced by the overwhelming quantity that may not be so easy for any opposing army to match or tackle.

Of course the Hans are NEVER short on quantity. How they use it and how it affects the outcome in the next round remains to be seen, though.
Two quick points - firstly the Indian soldier today is not carrying a mere 100 rounds as he did in 1962.
That said, our logistics will definitely be badly strained in case it comes to waves after waves as the Han did in 1962, both in terms of men and equipment. But then, would he survive after sending so many 'Little Princes' to their deaths?
Too many variables out here.
Bottomline - logistics on our side have to be strengthened as General Panag too mentioned in his piece quoted some posts above. The CPC might be well served to keep the PLA 'weak' as you mentioned, but in case of a prolonged shooting war, logistics will be the single biggest factor in deciding the outcome IMO.

currently, our logistic lines are much shorter than theirs. Its terrain as well as transport dependent.

both sides will already have worked out some detailed plans and war gamed the anticipated developments. There is always a large uncertainty factor in such situations.

Therefore no plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force. Panag hasn't revealed any state secrets.

[kancha]

these 'Little Princes', as you call them are unknown, unsung and will not be missed conscripts. Plenty more where they came from.

No one gives a rats for such PLA conscripts because uncounted replacements are available via the same route. Xi would not miss a beat and neither would his generals.

Let me just say I hold a different opinion on this. I may be wrong, but still I prefer to think of it a bit differently from you.

That said, would you say that the Indian Army of today will once again get overwhelmed in face of such tactics? Can our existing logistics sustain in face of 'wave upon wave' of cannon fodder? And can the Chinese logistics sustain it on their own side?

[kancha]

Ok, just saw you already replied to my above post!
Thanks

[chetak]

A true turning point will never come unless China settles the border issue and stops using Pakistan against us. But, for that, China has to determine that there is space for both India & China in this world. This requires China to change diametrically by shunning its 'sole superpower ambition' fuelled by tianxia. That's a fundamental change in its DNA and how would they achieve that? That is not possible though some tactical positive development is possible as China recognizes its limitations against India or diminishing returns of its hostile policy towards us. We should take whatever that comes and demand even more so as to further shape the Chinese behaviour while simultaneously preparing to challenge the Chinese hegemony wherever we need to.

Spot on. I posted earlier a line which India could take,reminding China that a "Great Wall" is built using many small similar sized stones/bricks,not with just one great piece! Similarly,if China wants to establish its OBOR,Silk Road,etc.,etc., it has to be of mutual benefit to all the other participating nations where equality is the mantra. A heavy overloading of profit in China's favour will spell disaster for the venture.

China also never imagined that India would wake up and become an economic powerhouse.That we were militarily capable it got sev. reminders esp. from '71 onwards. In its relentless pursuit of global domination,China has been steadfastly sabotaging India's attempts at breaking free from its Himalayan boundaries and playing a greater global role. We too have also been obsessed with Pak. I think it was Gen.Rodrigues (?) who famously said some years ago that "Pak is an irritant,China is the threat",and was ticked off by babudom for the same. But he was spot on too,which we've realised years later.

The Q is ,"what will China's attitude towards India be in the future? " I may be "back-tongued",but I can't see any real genuine wish on the Chinese part to soften its stance on India and give us greater space as an equal.It will take a truly enlightened leader of China to come forward with such a invitation. Until such a genuine rapproachment takes place,

If the hans settle their border disputes with India, they lose their hold over India because they have lost the ability to keep India off balance with their constant pin pricks. This slow pot boiling technique keeps the Indian troops tied up as well as our resources are being squandered in their maintenance.

It also helps the pakis enormously that India has to tie up resources to defend two fronts because the pakis are badly over extended as well.

This is a game that is being coordinated and played jointly by the hans and the pakis.

If we join OBOR, they will come for our economic jugular, neuter us there first and then neuter the Indian military as well, over a period of time.

the hans don't want rivals like us they only want servants like the pakis to whom they pay a pittance. They want to convert us to paki like servants as well.

[RajeshA]

Not at all. My point was merely about the equipment and the quality of the soldier manning it.
That apart, I do agree with what you wrote in the post above

The hans, it is rumoured, have 30 odd million excess males that they would well do to get rid of. This is because of their misguided one child policy as well as the han preferences for the male child over the female.

So quality may well be replaced by the overwhelming quantity that may not be so easy for any opposing army to match or tackle.

The 30 million bachelors, if true, may still be the ones who do not make the grade because of overindulgence in kaunputtar games with joystick, so no good, and if they don't have families, have no religion, then many would ask why fight?

[chetak]

Ok, just saw you already replied to my above post!
Thanks

The game changer which we did not use in 62 and one we will use now is the IAF.

Our nukes have spooked them as well. They haven't figured out any red lines that will apply to them. The hans are not fools.

Modi has stirred the mix in a way that has the pakis as well as the hans on the back foot.

The paki army has certainly taken serious note of the doklam standoff as well as the resolution. There is consternation in pukiland at the happenings at the BRICS summit, including Modi's grand reception.

[chetak]

The hans, it is rumoured, have 30 odd million excess males that they would well do to get rid of. This is because of their misguided one child policy as well as the han preferences for the male child over the female.

So quality may well be replaced by the overwhelming quantity that may not be so easy for any opposing army to match or tackle.

The 30 million bachelors, if true, may still be the ones who do not make the grade because of overindulgence in kaunputtar games with joystick, so no good, and if they don't have families, have no religion, then many would ask why fight?

that many would be shot too, no?? by the PLA to motivate the others?? just like the soviets did in WWII.

[prahaar]

these 'Little Princes', as you call them are unknown, unsung and will not be missed conscripts. Plenty more where they came from.

When stalin took staggering casualties in WWII, did anyone comment on it, least of all in Russia?? The soviets, perhaps, had the highest level of battle casualties, not because of enemy action only but because of the "wave after wave" attacking tactics of the successful soviet generals like zhukhov that simply overwhelmed the well trained and disciplined germans.

Those guys who did not advance in the face of the enemy were shot by their own soviet army right in the field.

No one gives a rats for such PLA conscripts because uncounted replacements are available via the same route. Xi would not miss a beat and neither would his generals.

A retired Colonel from our Army once told me (I was a teenager), that the biggest challenge in fighting China is that they do not care about how many of their troops die, we care for our men. He was not a pacifist, his son joined the army as well.

[Iyersan]

Has anyone noticed the alignment of the flags at the BRICS summit. The Indian flag is the last. Generally BRICS flags are aligned as BRICS. Elven didn't want Modi between him and Putin

[Peregrine]

'Both sides agreed defence personnel must ensure Doklam-like situation doesn't recur', says MEA about Modi-Xi meet

NEW DELHI: In an hour-long meeting between Xi Jinping and Narendra Modi on Tuesday, the first since the uneasy resolution of the Doklam standoff, both sides agreed "defence personnel must maintain strong contacts to ensure a situation like what happened recently" does not recur, said foreign secretary S Jaishankar.

He said time and again during the press briefing after the leaders' meeting that the focus of the conversation was on efforts to ensure "what happened recently" doesn't happen again. While the reference was obviously to Doklam, the site of the border standoff, not once did the foreign secretary say the word 'Doklam'.

Jaishankar stressed that both sides agreed that "peace and tranquillity on the border" are a pre-requisite to take the countries' relationship forward and added that "there should be more effort to strengthen mutual trust".

When asked to comment more specifically on China's violation of the border at Doklam in June, Jaishankar brusquely emphasised that the goal of the Modi-Xi meet was to have a forward-looking conversation.

"Look, we both (India and China) know what happened. This was not a backward-looking conversation, but a forward-looking one," said the foreign secretary.

Jaishankar said that both leaders reaffirmed the commitment they made when they met at the sidelines of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation summit in Kazakhstan in June.

"There was a reminder that in Astana in early June we agreed we won't let differences become disputes. At a time when the world is changing, we will make sure India-China relations are a factor of civility. That was reaffirmed," said the foreign secretary.

The issue of terrorism in the neighbourhood wasn't discussed in the Xi-Modi meet, although, Jaishankar said it was comprehensively discussed yesterday by all BRICS countries before their first-ever 'declaration' on terror groups.

"Most countries feel similarly about the challenges posed by terror, it isn't just an Indian position. Many other countries had equally strong views on terror. The Declaration showed common commitments," said Jaishankar.

The Chinese and the Indian troops were engaged in a standoff since June 16 after the Indian side stopped the construction of a road by the Chinese Army.

On August 28, the external affairs Ministry announced that New Delhi and Beijing have decided on "expeditious disengagement" of their border troops in the disputed Dokalam area.

Cheers

[hanumadu]

The hans, it is rumoured, have 30 odd million excess males that they would well do to get rid of. This is because of their misguided one child policy as well as the han preferences for the male child over the female.

So quality may well be replaced by the overwhelming quantity that may not be so easy for any opposing army to match or tackle.

That is what it is, Rumour.

I have seen more girls than boys everywhere. In our eagerness to criticize Han, we forget that Han can have any number of children before the birth of their first male child. I have seen many couples who had two girls before their only son.

Now even that anamoly is corrected, Han can have more than one only son just in time.

Not entirely true. Only some chinese were allowed to have a second child - just a second child, not third or fourth - if the first child was a girl.
Even now, only those people who are both single child of their parents can have a second child after applying for one. Given that the one child policy continued for so long its almost certain there will be a skewed sex ratio.

[yensoy]

If the hans settle their border disputes with India, they lose their hold over India because they have lost the ability to keep India off balance with their constant pin pricks. This slow pot boiling technique keeps the Indian troops tied up as well as our resources are being squandered in their maintenance.

Which means that we need to use the unsettled border to our advantage, using the same kind of techniques which seem to have worked well for the Chinese. They should be suing us for peace and our foreign policy goal should be to get to the point where they want the border settled more than us. That automatically gives us a leg up in any deals.

[shiv]

The 30 million bachelors, if true, may still be the ones who do not make the grade because of overindulgence in kaunputtar games with joystick, so no good, and if they don't have families, have no religion, then many would ask why fight?

I presume you are talking about the few who actually get selected because they don't have myopia from too many phone games from childhood.

But this 30 million number is actually being misused in this discussion. 30 million extra men is all across Han China and not concentrated in a huge group outside PLA conscription centers. And the PLA has a requirement for women also - so maybe the extra men can be used for the Paki types who think women are for business, goats for pleasure and boys for variety.

[asgkhan]

Who cares a crap about what sun poo signals these idiots are sending ? Get the army upgraded with equipment, get those damn LCAs and Rafaels on the border. Conduct another smiling buddha with TNW and crush these wannabe jackie chans and ling dings mercilessly. I have had enough of trying to make sense of all these smoke, mirrors and hidden messages.

From my favourite movie:, the good, the bad and the ugly

One Armed Man: I've been looking for you for 8 months. Whenever I should have had a gun in my right hand, I thought of you. Now I find you in exactly the position that suits me. I had lots of time to learn to shoot with my left.
[Tuco kills him with a hidden gun]
Tuco: When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.

[Hari Seldon]

[anupmisra]

Has anyone noticed the alignment of the flags at the BRICS summit. The Indian flag is the last. Generally BRICS flags are aligned as BRICS. Elven didn't want Modi between him and Putin

It is funny how protocol defies logic. The host nation naturally gets to stand in the middle - i.e., #3 (downside of an odd number). It would have been a diplomatic and political disaster (for the chinis) to have eleven and Modi hold hands after the dhokla affair (viz., Modi being either #2 or 4). Therefore, Modi could only be #1 or #5. When India is the host, the process can be repeated with Modi and eleven gin pegs (or whoever gets to be the party chairman in October) exchanging positions.

[anupmisra]

'Both sides agreed defence personnel must ensure Doklam-like situation doesn't recur', says MEA about Modi-Xi meet

"Look, we both (India and China) know what happened. This was not a backward-looking conversation, but a forward-looking one," said the foreign secretary.

That's right. In other words, let history not be a lesson for all of us.

[UlanBatori]

Trouble is that with PeeAllSee one better have eyes in the back as well.

Meanwhile, Joy To The World: U c y East Turkestan is in the list from Eleven

Chinese internet users have flooded government social media accounts this week with thousands of angry anti-Muslim comments after unverified videos surfaced online showing an apparent riot by members of a Muslim minority group in a northern city... unconfirmed reports that dozens of Hui Muslims rioted at a highway toll station in the city of Tangshan after a cleric from their community was beaten or hurt in a scuffle.

Calls to police and government offices .. were answered by officials who said they were not in charge of responding to media requests over the incident. The official Gobar Crimes newspaper said .. "someone was beaten" ... unrest occurred at the toll station Saturday night after the Muslim cleric was injured in a scuffle, and cited online posts as saying he had been beaten by a toll station worker after he tried to pass through a closed lane instead of waiting in a long line.

Chinese internet users complained on social media about having their posts about the riot scrubbed off Chinese microblogs, while internet searches of the words "Muslim Tangshan," ''Tangshan tollbooth" and other related terms were blocked by online censors.

Video clips posted on YouTube, which is outside the reach of Chinese censors, showed a group of men with white skull caps gathering at the office of the Kaiping district government and nighttime clashes between similarly dressed men and riot police. The videos could not immediately be verified.

According to official statistics, there are more than 20 million Muslims in China, mainly among Uighur, Hui and other ethnic minorities living around the country. China's 10.6 million Hui — descendants of Muslim settlers and Chinese who converted to Islam — have long endured strained relations with the Han, who constitute more than 90 percent of China's 1.37 billion people.

However, violence involving Hui Muslims, who mostly live in northern China, has been relatively rare in recent years. In 2004, as many as 5,000 people reportedly fought with clubs and burned several houses during street fights in a central Chinese town between Hui and Han.

The flood of comments highlights a recent surge in anti-Muslim sentiment online that experts fear could exacerbate simmering ethnic and religious tensions in the country.

Chinese government supports Islamic Pakistan with nuclear weapons and protects Islamic Terrorist Leader Masood Azhar from UN punishment.